I have a question about being hungry after working out

[escobar04]

Do your homework. Stop listening to what the "authorities" are telling you.

Your body and your fat cells are not like a bank account. Calories go in, and what you don't burn gets saved as fat. No, it does not happen that way.

Go on youtube and search "Big Fat Fiasco pt. 1-5"... This is basically the Cliff notes on Gary Taubes' book. It's a little over an hour long and though it doesn't cover everything, it does give you the key points. Watch that and then get back to me.

I can point you in 100 different places that can back up what I'm saying.

Carbohydrates are the enemy and the interesting thing about people who get fat, their bodies make them hungrier (thus eat more) in response to the weight gain.... Not the other way around.

Do your research instead of blindly believing what you've been told.

Im not told anything, I test out on my own body for months!

the whole oatmeal/chicken/tuna diet only applies to those who have shiet genes and something that has been drilled into athlete's minds for years and is nothing but broscience.

when in reality, if you have ok genes, you can easily get away with a 1000 calorie burger on a 2000 calorie diet

my close friend absolutely has to eat "clean" foods in order to stay in shape, one burrito and he blows up

me, I start my day off with a bowl of cereal and a scoop of ice cream, even on a cut.

there is little difference in eating 2000 calories of tuna and oats and eating 2000 calories of burger and oats

as long as you're below the caloric intake and maintain protein intake, you will lose fat/weight

 

[runner83]

Im not told anything, I test out on my own body for months!

the whole oatmeal/chicken/tuna diet only applies to those who have shiet genes and something that has been drilled into athlete's minds for years and is nothing but broscience.

when in reality, if you have ok genes, you can easily get away with a 1000 calorie burger on a 2000 calorie diet

my close friend absolutely has to eat "clean" foods in order to stay in shape, one burrito and he blows up

me, I start my day off with a bowl of cereal and a scoop of ice cream, even on a cut.

there is little difference in eating 2000 calories of tuna and oats and eating 2000 calories of burger and oats

as long as you're below the caloric intake and maintain protein intake, you will lose fat/weight

You sir are an idiot.

Stop spreading your bs advice on this forum. :nono:

The occaisonal blow out will not affect things too much, but to say it is only down to calories in vs calories out is way off the mark.

% of protein, carbs and fats is also critical. Also timing of meals.

In theory, a burger may be equivalent to tuna if it had the same % of these nutrients.

But in most cases, this is not true, so how you can think this is correct is beyond me.

 

[The Bad Ass Canadian]

the whole oatmeal/chicken/tuna diet only applies to those who have shiet genes

Where on earth did I say anything about eating this way?

That is an absolutely awful way to eat (if that is all you're eating), and a recipe to put you in an early grave...period.

I don't have any inclination to convince you anymore; I just don't want anyone else taking your advice and thinking they can eat anything they want as long as they eat 2000 calories a day. Sure it may work for a bit, but as you age things will shift radically.

I get the feeling you're in your late teens or early 20s.

Come see me when you're 32 and tell me this way of eating anything at all, as long as you're in that range, is still working for you.

If you're eating too much carbs, your body WILL become progressively insulin resistant and you'll start to put on fat, regardless of calories. Keep the carbs (and I mean the refined and sugary things) out of the meal, and you can eat til you are content and you'll never gain a pound...even if content for you is 4000 calories a day.

And, the best part of eating high fat, high protein and vegetables (with a little fruit/berries).... you are never hungry!!! Always satisfied for hours afterward.

 

[Fuglydude]

Where on earth did I say anything about eating this way?

That is an absolutely awful way to eat (if that is all you're eating), and a recipe to put you in an early grave...period.

I don't have any inclination to convince you anymore; I just don't want anyone else taking your advice and thinking they can eat anything they want as long as they eat 2000 calories a day. Sure it may work for a bit, but as you age things will shift radically.

I get the feeling you're in your late teens or early 20s.

Come see me when you're 32 and tell me this way of eating anything at all, as long as you're in that range, is still working for you.

If you're eating too much carbs, your body WILL become progressively insulin resistant and you'll start to put on fat, regardless of calories. Keep the carbs (and I mean the refined and sugary things) out of the meal, and you can eat til you are content and you'll never gain a pound...even if content for you is 4000 calories a day.

And, the best part of eating high fat, high protein and vegetables (with a little fruit/berries).... you are never hungry!!! Always satisfied for hours afterward.

This is pretty decent advice actually... I'm training for my first comp later this year (currently bulking, sitting at 5'8" - 190 at around 12-13%). My trainer, who's an IFBB pro echoes the sentiments of controlling simple carbs while taking in lotsa good protein and fat.... However, trust me if you're eating > 4000 calories this way, you'll probably gain some weight! Muscle after all does have weight! Its definitely easier to stay relatively lean with this kinda diet though.

That being said carbs are definitely needed to bulk. They're just a bit trickier. My carbs predominantly comes from yams, oatmeal, brown rice, and my weight gainer shakes, and pre/post WO waxy maize. I will occasionally pig out and have ice cream, etc for my cheats. Definitely notice that I feel a lot more bloated when I consume more crappy processed food that is rich in refined carbs... I also look a lot smoother and my gut sticks out a lot more.

I know I could get away with eating more simple carbs, primarily from fruit, when I was younger... but I'm almost pushing 30 now, and I gotta pay a lot more attention to what I eat.

 

[escobar04]

You sir are an idiot.

Stop spreading your bs advice on this forum. :nono:

The occaisonal blow out will not affect things too much, but to say it is only down to calories in vs calories out is way off the mark.

% of protein, carbs and fats is also critical. Also timing of meals.

In theory, a burger may be equivalent to tuna if it had the same % of these nutrients.

But in most cases, this is not true, so how you can think this is correct is beyond me.

Im not spreading anything, Im talking about things that work

LOL at you thinking about eating "clean" food all the time

Unless, you're competing, it's calories vs calories



1000 calories in a burger is the same as 1000 calories in tuna/oats, it will just be a lot of tuna/oats vs a small burger

as I've said before, as long as your protein intake and calorie intake is sufficient you can get ripped on junk food

this guys is a huge advocate of this, so am I and many many others, oh, and he's 40yo

http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/photos/view-user-photo/4445641





LOL at you guys choking on tuna/oats all day as if it matters, as long as calories and protein is maintained, you can eat whatever you want, many do that.

insulin, complex/simple carbs only applies to some!

let me guess, you also believe that there is difference in protein powders and shop at GNC buying NitroTech for $70??

 

[escobar04]

here's more proof from a 38 yo

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=121214261

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=112998331





LOL at 6 timed meals per day, LOL at tuna/oats/chicken

go read some more magazines

maybe it works for most, but it's definitely not a necessity!

 

[The Bad Ass Canadian]

1000 calories in a burger is the same as 1000 calories in tuna/oats, it will just be a lot of tuna/oats vs a small burger

Holy hell, dude. Seriously?

Let's take this example word for word. You honestly think you'll get the same physiological effects on your body from a 1000 calorie burger (probably with ketchup and all those other condiments) as you will from Tuna and oats?

Firstly, I'd forgo the oats completely (personally, I have no use for oats as a "good carb" in my program... greens and other veggies will do). They are way too starchy, but they are miles ahead of the bun that you'll be having with that burger.

Secondly, assuming we're talking about a fastfood or restaurant burger, the quality of the beef is going to be so subpar that your body's gonna have to do a lot of work to coax any real nutrition from it.

Remember this: The deader the food you eat is (processed, pasteurized, synthetic) the more your body is going to have to draw from it's own resources to actually turn this sh!t food into living tissue.

Put another way, you cn and will actually eat yourself into sickness and disease by eating nothing but processed packaged crap and pasteurized drinks because these foods have no life force to them. Eat some nice raw vegetables, fresh meats and fish cooked lightly and you've got some serious building blocks for a great body. Eating junk will put you in a deficit, and in a bad way.

The quality of the calorie counts way more than the quantity. I really don't see why you have such a hard time with this concept. And don't take advice from brainwashed lifters who talk about diets like tuna and oats all day. They might look great, but under the hood there's a lot of problems going on. Trust me, I see it every day.

And I don't read magazines n'or do I take any supplements and my body is lookin' pretty good. Magazines are just giant commercials for garbage and have little to do with proper nutrition or health. They are all trying to sell you on the false premise that the new wonder pill/powder can get you jacked and shredded. Maybe some of them can, but at the expense of your liver, your sex drive and your body's overall health.

It's time everyone gets back to basics in terms of eating and lifting. Eat real food and train properly and your genetic strengths will express themselves. Eat poorly, train poorly and sleep poorly and your genetic defects will come on like a cancer, literally.

A lean body isn't necessarily a healthy body, but a healthy body is, by definition, a lean body.

 

[The Bad Ass Canadian]

This is pretty decent advice actually... I'm training for my first comp later this year (currently bulking, sitting at 5'8" - 190 at around 12-13%). My trainer, who's an IFBB pro echoes the sentiments of controlling simple carbs while taking in lotsa good protein and fat.... However, trust me if you're eating > 4000 calories this way, you'll probably gain some weight! Muscle after all does have weight! Its definitely easier to stay relatively lean with this kinda diet though.

That being said carbs are definitely needed to bulk. They're just a bit trickier. My carbs predominantly comes from yams, oatmeal, brown rice, and my weight gainer shakes, and pre/post WO waxy maize. I will occasionally pig out and have ice cream, etc for my cheats. Definitely notice that I feel a lot more bloated when I consume more crappy processed food that is rich in refined carbs... I also look a lot smoother and my gut sticks out a lot more.

I know I could get away with eating more simple carbs, primarily from fruit, when I was younger... but I'm almost pushing 30 now, and I gotta pay a lot more attention to what I eat.

Thanx for the reply.

Yeah, you can use carbs to bulk but I'm not totally sold on the bulking/cutting phase concept. Not in the sense that you pack on mass from eating a ton and then cut the fat to reveal the muscle beneath. That, to me doesn't really make sense, when you could just as easily build muscle without having to put on all that fat.

I do feel strongly that what a bulking phase does is makes more glycogen available (much like carb loading does for runners) and thus we perform better in the gym. Lift heavier and longer and get more muscles this way. I'm beating a dead horse because that's fairly common knowledge, but it needs to be said.

The only time I have any amount of starchy/sugary carbs is immediately post-workout. You want to get a double dose of carbs along with some good protein into your body, preferably before the sweat dries. Your cells are hungry and the spike in insulin will carry the nutrition quickly to the places you depleted and that require replenishment.

EDIT: And with regards to the 4000 calories a day thing, I was merely making a point. I have actually done 4000-5000 calories a day of purely meats, fish and good fats like butter lard and coconut oil with a few veggies. did it for a whole month and lost about 5lbs and I was by no means "fat".... had a good 15lbs on me at the time but nothing out of control. It is really hard to eat that much, when you are eating this way. You will be full and content long before you reach 4000 calories. 3000 will probably do the average sized guy who lifts and works moderately hard.

I stopped counting calories long ago. Now I eat as much fat and protein as I can til I'm not hungry and have a bit of veggies or fruit with it and my metabolism is running optimal. Some guys will have to adjust their ratios slightly to have a few more carbs in there. We are all different, so finding that balance (which is ever changing daily, depending on what we are doing) is key. A deadlift and squats day will be much more fat and protein heavy and a day of floor hockey or pickup basketball might have a bit more veggies in there, for example.

 

[The Bad Ass Canadian]

here's more proof from a 38 yo

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=121214261

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=112998331

Ok, I reviewed these links and what a load of crap they are. Sure, the guy who was already in decent shape could do stuff like this and get away with it for a while. Can he maintain for the rest of his life this sort of diet without dire consequences?

No

And lmao at the shredded guy ripping into a pizza. Sure, why not every once in a while? You think he looks like that because he ate that way all the time?

No.

My whole thing is that we need to eat proper all the time, so that our bodies achieve peak performance, but this way of eating needs to be something we can sustain for the long term. Never feel hungry, never feel deprived and we need to keep our blood sugar in check.

Anyone with the will can semi starve themselves into low Body fat percentages but over the longterm they won't be able to maintain, and over the years it'll get progressively harder to get back there as their metabolic syndrome (insulin resistance) progresses, if they eat too many carbs.

 

[escobar04]

Ok, I reviewed these links and what a load of crap they are. Sure, the guy who was already in decent shape could do stuff like this and get away with it for a while. Can he maintain for the rest of his life this sort of diet without dire consequences?

No

And lmao at the shredded guy ripping into a pizza. Sure, why not every once in a while? You think he looks like that because he ate that way all the time?

No.

My whole thing is that we need to eat proper all the time, so that our bodies achieve peak performance, but this way of eating needs to be something we can sustain for the long term. Never feel hungry, never feel deprived and we need to keep our blood sugar in check.

Anyone with the will can semi starve themselves into low Body fat percentages but over the longterm they won't be able to maintain, and over the years it'll get progressively harder to get back there as their metabolic syndrome (insulin resistance) progresses, if they eat too many carbs.

actually, the dude eating pizaa (Kane Sumabat, Controlled Labs sponsored natural athlete) eats like that all the time

he is a huge advocate of "the Warrior diet" which consists of eating one big meal per day

oh, and like you said, a guy who is already in shape can easily get away with eating just calories (I've been doing the sam and havent seen a can of tuna or chicken breast in 3 years)



I think a lot of you are just afraid to try it, because everyone always brosciences about 6 meals per day and only eating "clean" foods

there are more diets out there

Keto is fav of mine - all fats and proteins

Warrior diet - sip protein shakes allday and have one large meal in the evenings


I can tell you right now, that half of bodybuilding.com community is currently split between the two and only a few still follow the 6-meal/day crap

you want to tell me, that all those guys (with avatars) do not know what they're doing?

 

[Alle_Gory]

Carbohydrates are the enemy and the interesting thing about people who get fat, their bodies make them hungrier (thus eat more) in response to the weight gain.... Not the other way around.

I agree with the second part, but not the first. Whenever I want to lose weight I eat more carbohydrates which are high in fiber and cut the fat significantly. The fiber is a filler and with little fat in the diet I lose the excess weight.

 

[deNominator]

Canadian,

No one is going to argue the fact that eating pizza and junk food of the like is very detrimental to your health. However, I believe the point Escobar is trying to bring up is that if you are consuming more calories than you are expending you will gain fat. Aside from any health complications and hormone changes that occured while extracting the energy from the food you're eating, a calorie is a calorie in the end.

Junk food is generally blamed for obesity because it is so damn good tasting and is easier to eat more of, resulting in a surplus of calories. Not to mention most of it is soaked/fried/filled with "less-useful" fats which up the total calories dramatically.

You have a lot of truth in what you say, and I would never advocate eating sh!t food. Just hoping I can express what I think Escobar wants to in a more eloquent way.

 

[Fuglydude]

Thanx for the reply.

Yeah, you can use carbs to bulk but I'm not totally sold on the bulking/cutting phase concept. Not in the sense that you pack on mass from eating a ton and then cut the fat to reveal the muscle beneath. That, to me doesn't really make sense, when you could just as easily build muscle without having to put on all that fat.

I do feel strongly that what a bulking phase does is makes more glycogen available (much like carb loading does for runners) and thus we perform better in the gym. Lift heavier and longer and get more muscles this way. I'm beating a dead horse because that's fairly common knowledge, but it needs to be said.

The only time I have any amount of starchy/sugary carbs is immediately post-workout. You want to get a double dose of carbs along with some good protein into your body, preferably before the sweat dries. Your cells are hungry and the spike in insulin will carry the nutrition quickly to the places you depleted and that require replenishment.

EDIT: And with regards to the 4000 calories a day thing, I was merely making a point. I have actually done 4000-5000 calories a day of purely meats, fish and good fats like butter lard and coconut oil with a few veggies. did it for a whole month and lost about 5lbs and I was by no means "fat".... had a good 15lbs on me at the time but nothing out of control. It is really hard to eat that much, when you are eating this way. You will be full and content long before you reach 4000 calories. 3000 will probably do the average sized guy who lifts and works moderately hard.

I stopped counting calories long ago. Now I eat as much fat and protein as I can til I'm not hungry and have a bit of veggies or fruit with it and my metabolism is running optimal. Some guys will have to adjust their ratios slightly to have a few more carbs in there. We are all different, so finding that balance (which is ever changing daily, depending on what we are doing) is key. A deadlift and squats day will be much more fat and protein heavy and a day of floor hockey or pickup basketball might have a bit more veggies in there, for example.

I agree with the cutting/bulking thing being unnatural... however, how "natural" is getting on stage with fake tan on in a man thong and flexing? Haha... well that's what I'm training for!

You must be a big dude, cuz a high protein 4000 calories diet means that I definitely put on weight, mostly lean muscle mass!

 

[escobar04]

Canadian,

No one is going to argue the fact that eating pizza and junk food of the like is very detrimental to your health. However, I believe the point Escobar is trying to bring up is that if you are consuming more calories than you are expending you will gain fat. Aside from any health complications and hormone changes that occured while extracting the energy from the food you're eating, a calorie is a calorie in the end.

Junk food is generally blamed for obesity because it is so damn good tasting and is easier to eat more of, resulting in a surplus of calories. Not to mention most of it is soaked/fried/filled with "less-useful" fats which up the total calories dramatically.

You have a lot of truth in what you say, and I would never advocate eating sh!t food. Just hoping I can express what I think Escobar wants to in a more eloquent way.

thank you!

you can eat 1500 calories of burgers and lose weight and eat 3000 calories of tuna/chicken/oats and get fat

 

[john1089]

Hay thanks for posting the videos

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John
pushkar hotels,
rajasthan tour packages, Delhi tours operators

 

[Noodles]

But, I am so hungry at night (I don't go to bed till late) that I eat ****y foods. Is there any supplements to supress appetite? I tried whey protein and all that but it's just making me gain weight. I want to know what you would do? Eat fruit? Cheese? I feel like I'm putting it right back in. I'm 196 lbs and 5 11 I want to drop to 180 in two months. I do shoulders on Sunday's Biceps/Back on Wed, and Chest on Thur and light legs on Friday. But do cardio six a week. I want to lose this weight!!!! Should I drop the weights and just go cardio for a while?

If you're trying to lose weight I'd change the 45 minute cardio to high intensity interval training (or a more moderate form of it). Basically run fast for a minute - so you're just able to complete it, then walk for a minute or two depending on how you do. Repeat ten times. This will do more good to your muscles development, help stop muscle catabolism and burn more calories. Plus it gives you more free time.

Keep the weight training. This is the most important thing you can do after sorting your diet out.

Loosing weight is all about diet. At your weight, height and age your BMR is about 1964. Let's say it takes around 2700kcals a day to keep your weight on. You're basically looking at loosing a touch less than 2lbs a week. That means lowering your calorie intake by 3500kcals a week for each lb you want to lose. So in your case ~2lbs a week is 7000kcals a day - or 1000kcals a day.

So you need to be aiming for 2700 - 1000 = 1700kcals a day. Split this into 6 portions (breakfast, lunch, dinner and three snacks). Make sure quality protein is included in each meal - eggs, chicken, fish, nuts etc. The best thing to have in the evening is low fat cottage cheese - it feels you up and the casein helps muscle development whilst you sleep.

Not sure how much of that you already knew, but hope it helps.

 

[Alle_Gory]

thank you!

you can eat 1500 calories of burgers and lose weight and eat 3000 calories of tuna/chicken/oats and get fat

No. That's not how it works.

More info: http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=181042


Also, have you actually TRIED to eat 3000 calories of tuna/chicken/oats as a diet? Try to get fat on it. It's impossible because you can't eat that much food both in volume and because oats have so much fiber.

1500 calories of burger is one burger with bacon and a slice of cheese. Not only that but that burger is covered in sodium (salt). And what does salt do? It makes you thirsty and you want to drink buckets of water. But you don't have buckets of water. You have a large drink in front of you (which also has sodium in it). And you drink that large drink and go for a refill because you're still thirsty. Try and stop yourself, you can't can you because you are THIRSTY.

Do this for awhile... and now, you're fat. Congratulations.

If you eat naturally, very complex carbs and natural meats, low in sugar and low in alcohol it is IMPOSSIBLE to get fat because you can't eat enough food to get fat.



escobar04 please educate yourself and stop giving sh*tty advice.

 

[escobar04]

No. That's not how it works.

More info: http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=181042


Also, have you actually TRIED to eat 3000 calories of tuna/chicken/oats as a diet? Try to get fat on it. It's impossible because you can't eat that much food both in volume and because oats have so much fiber.

1500 calories of burger is one burger with bacon and a slice of cheese. Not only that but that burger is covered in sodium (salt). And what does salt do? It makes you thirsty and you want to drink buckets of water. But you don't have buckets of water. You have a large drink in front of you (which also has sodium in it). And you drink that large drink and go for a refill because you're still thirsty. Try and stop yourself, you can't can you because you are THIRSTY.

Do this for awhile... and now, you're fat. Congratulations.

If you eat naturally, very complex carbs and natural meats, low in sugar and low in alcohol it is IMPOSSIBLE to get fat because you can't eat enough food to get fat.



escobar04 please educate yourself and stop giving sh*tty advice.

wait, did you just say that sodium=water intake=fat? notsureifserious!

and how is your proposed diet IMPOSSIBLE to get fat from?

you overeat calories = fat
excess calories = fat

drop calories = lose weight

again, I did mention protein intake is very important and again, go back to some of the links I've posted and what half of bodybuilding.com community is doing including guys such as Kane Sumabat and Greg Plitt

LOL at shiitty advice, just because you're fed bro-science all your life does not mean my advice is bad

 

[Alle_Gory]

and how is your proposed diet IMPOSSIBLE to get fat from?

High fibre in the complex carbs means your body digests very slowly. You feel full all the time. Not only that bu 3000 calories from chicken and oats is a ridiculous amount of food.

you overeat calories = fat
excess calories = fat

drop calories = lose weight

There are many reasons why this diet would work.

1. Lots of fiber makes you feel full. There is a ridiculous amount of fiber in raw oats.

2. Natural foods take more time to process. More complex food = more time to break down. This slows down the digestion even more. You get a slow and steady stream of nutrients into your blood and your body feeds off that one meal for hours while digesting.

Also, friendly to insulin. The body's most anabolic hormone. More than testosterone.

3. There's no sh*t additives like sucrose that mess around with your hunger response. Ghrelin is the hormone that fructose messes with and that tells your brain "I've had enough, stop eating!!"

More info on this hormone: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Ghrelin

I've posted and what half of bodybuilding.com community is doing including guys such as Kane Sumabat and Greg Plitt

LOL at shiitty advice, just because you're fed bro-science all your life does not mean my advice is bad

Excuse me, bro science? I've posted an hour and a half lecture from a university professor with a doctorate, and you're telling me that's "bro" science? But bodybuilder are more trustworthy and not "bro" science?

What???

If we're going to have a debate then I suggest you bring your facts to the table. I have brought mine, you have brought your worthless baseless opinions. How embarrassing. You don't even know what you're arguing for.

 

[escobar04]

High fibre in the complex carbs means your body digests very slowly. You feel full all the time. Not only that bu 3000 calories from chicken and oats is a ridiculous amount of food.



There are many reasons why this diet would work.

1. Lots of fiber makes you feel full. There is a ridiculous amount of fiber in raw oats.

2. Natural foods take more time to process. More complex food = more time to break down. This slows down the digestion even more. You get a slow and steady stream of nutrients into your blood and your body feeds off that one meal for hours while digesting.

Also, friendly to insulin. The body's most anabolic hormone. More than testosterone.

3. There's no sh*t additives like sucrose that mess around with your hunger response. Ghrelin is the hormone that fructose messes with and that tells your brain "I've had enough, stop eating!!"

More info on this hormone: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Ghrelin



Excuse me, bro science? I've posted an hour and a half lecture from a university professor with a doctorate, and you're telling me that's "bro" science? But bodybuilder are more trustworthy and not "bro" science?

What???

If we're going to have a debate then I suggest you bring your facts to the table. I have brought mine, you have brought your worthless baseless opinions. How embarrassing. You don't even know what you're arguing for.

umm.... I provided links of actual gym-goers from a similar forum (bodybuilding.com)

same typical guys who decided to try something different other than what "the doctor" said

LOL at you sitting there worrying about you fibers, sugars, all different kinds of fats, etc while all I do is consume enough protein, and fill the rest of my calories with whatever I want and still sit at 10% BF year around

go ahead, click the link, search what guys like Kane Sumabat and Greg Plitt say

you might win the scientific part of this argument any day, but it still, doesnt mean that the diet I suggest isnt right.

When I originally came in this thread I simply suggested an alternative diet, and all of you here are going apeshiit over it