I can't break out of this particular conditioned mindset, read on...

[zekko]

I mean, what would you think if some girl was just bouncing from table to table trying to hit on every guy in the place? Even if she's hot as hell, wouldn't you wonder to yourself, "What's wrong with her?"

Everything in your post made perfect sense. But doesn't this go against most basic game philosophy? Don't they tell you to get out there and talk to everybody in the club? Don't they tell you not to show too much interest in a girl, make her think you're indifferent to her? Yet here you are saying "make her think you want HER specifically?".

 

[Die Hard]

Edger, you just think you're not signalling a certain mindset. You show it in very small details that you're not even aware of yourself... It's hard to give explicit examples, it could be your shoulders being pointed little more forward than usual, your eyes blinking just a few milliseconds faster than usual, the pauses between your words/sentences being a few milliseconds longer than usual. And usually it's a combination of several of those examples. You're not aware of all those things yourself and others are often not even conscious of them, but unconsciously they do pick them up and just get the general feeling that something's not right about your behaviour.

How you feel and what you think will be reflected in your behaviour, period. Trying to control all the little details of your behaviour is nearly impossible. If this is what you try or want to learn, give up already... Sure you can learn to control certain things and it will add to the impression you're making but you should really try to control your behaviour by controlling what you think and feel. That way, it will be 'real' and girls won't get the feeling that something's off about you (because there really isn't!)

 

[Julius_Seizeher]

From reading the title of this post, I assess that your greatest mental hurdle is the thought "I can't break out of this mindset..." Dude, your mind is the only thing in this world over which you have 100% control, everything else is exposed to varying degrees of risk, chance, and outside influence.

Engrain the truth into your Mind, that it is your thoughts and your thoughts ALONE that make you or break you. How else could it be? From where else will the impetus come, to make the changes and to create the life you want?
As every teacher, prophet, and philosopher has agreed since the beginning of time, you are what you think about.

I suggest you delve into the teachings of people like Napoleon Hill, Earl Nightingale, Marcus Aurelius, Zig Ziglar and countless others who have expounded upon this philosophy far more eloquently than I ever could...

Or could I?

 

[squirrels]

Everything in your post made perfect sense. But doesn't this go against most basic game philosophy? Don't they tell you to get out there and talk to everybody in the club? Don't they tell you not to show too much interest in a girl, make her think you're indifferent to her? Yet here you are saying "make her think you want HER specifically?".

You can make someone feel special without acting like they're the ONLY special person out there.

One-itis is more than just thinking that a girl is the only girl for you, it's the idea that if you "f it up" with this girl, it will make the remainder of your life miserable. It's a blatant lie guys who become infatuated tell themselves, and as you know, it's not true.

But that doesn't mean that a woman, as a human being, isn't "special".

As Gunwitch once said, "Have some curiosity about the girl you're about to do the mamba-wamba with!!" If she feels like she's nothing more than a free alternative to a prostitute, she'd rather go home alone.

I guess you could make a distinction between a woman being "special" and a woman being "important". No woman you met 2 minutes ago should be "important" unless she's interviewing you for a job or something. And certainly no woman you're trying to pick up for the first time is "important"...you can take her or leave her and still be confident in yourself. But that doesn't mean she's not "special"...and if you're not in the slightest bit curious HOW, then maybe you ARE better off with a prostitute.

 

[Stagger Lee]

If the guy looks good and acts like a DJ, chicks will like it.
If the guy looks bad and acts like an AFC, chicks will not like it.

The millions of times you've heard women being negative about guys approaching them, they were just referring to the situations where the guy looked bad and acted like an AFC.




True. Knowing you're 'the prize' is not enough. You have to show what you know!

I think the error here is you assume there are good reasons for a woman rejecting or accepting a man in the first place, and then you vaguely label that "DJ" and "AFC". I disagree with that assumption. And even if it was true, that does not excuse women calling guys "creeps" or "creepy" who haven't done anything wrong. There's no justification for women doing that.

Women call good guys creeps all the time and call a truely creep of a guy wonderful. You are missing the whole point and gloossing over the fact that women are subjective,capricious, arbitrary, and not to mention most of them have no classs or manners and think it's their right to try to step on amn just because for no good reason they're not attracted to him.

 

[Stagger Lee]

Dear Edger,
If you insist on limiting your activities to clubs you will never achieve your worth....Those places are only marginally better than Internet Dating,when you have a Girl sure take her to the Club but trying to pull them there?you have too much competition.

Edger this is about the only sensible reply you got. No offense to anyone but most of these other replies you got aren't of any help. They are just dogging you. A lot of guys in the PU "community" are as bad as women and live in denial and get irrate when someone says the truth. They defend women better than many women do.

These guys act like they know why and what attracts women. They do not. They act like they can pick up all kinds of hot girls in clubs, but most of them can not. Edger, I think you need to try to take initiative more like I said. There might be some good replies to you in this thread, but I didn't see too many that I read. Don't take any advice or "contructive criticism" to heart.

 

[Jitterbug]

You can make someone feel special without acting like they're the ONLY special person out there.

As Charlie Harper says, "she's special, not unique!"

edger's problem, as DonS has touched on, is that he has a gigantic ugly ego. Just read his words in the first post and see how much he's in love with himself and so proud of his so-called good game.

When it comes to dealing with women, a man gotta take risks, regardless of how awesome he is. The problem is that taking risks means you have to be ready to take some blows on that ego and people who are too much in love with themselves would not take any such risk as it may be revealed to them that they aren't as awesome as they think they are.

You can give him all kinds of great advices in the world (and he's already got many in the past) but he will never be able to internalize any of them unless he drops that ego-driven attitude and learns some humility.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

What could I possibly be doing that they would catch on to this? Give me some examples. I'm a pretty damn good actor, and very convincible in my behaviors, believe me. I honestly don't think I'm repelling women because of these things.

Incongruity, as has been mentioned before, is a major turn off, and what women are generally referring to when they say "creepy." Don't discount women's ability to "read" your "state," even if they have no idea how to describe it other than "creepy," or not creepy.

If you have sexual energy, but you have even the slightest distaste for those you wish to share your sexual energy, that is hugely incongruent, and they will pick up on it despite your acting skills. In a club, they have their defenses on full alert, so it's hard as fukk to fake your way through their bytch shield. One the street, in a bookstore, yea, maybe. But not in a club.

I know you'd rather blame women for not being open to be approached, but all you can change about this problem is your mindset.

Try this experiment. For the next few weeks, go to clubs with only the intention of meeting and talking to girls without getting even their phone numbers. Just to explore their own energy. Try and find something interesting about them, and leave it at that.

You're never gonna be very successful if you have a hatred for that which you pursue. that's pretty much the definition of incongruence.

And unless you are a psychotic, emotionless psychopath, no acting skills can over come incongruence.

 

[edger]

Edger, you just think you're not signalling a certain mindset. You show it in very small details that you're not even aware of yourself... It's hard to give explicit examples, it could be your shoulders being pointed little more forward than usual, your eyes blinking just a few milliseconds faster than usual, the pauses between your words/sentences being a few milliseconds longer than usual. And usually it's a combination of several of those examples. You're not aware of all those things yourself and others are often not even conscious of them, but unconsciously they do pick them up and just get the general feeling that something's not right about your behaviour.

How you feel and what you think will be reflected in your behaviour, period. Trying to control all the little details of your behaviour is nearly impossible. If this is what you try or want to learn, give up already... Sure you can learn to control certain things and it will add to the impression you're making but you should really try to control your behaviour by controlling what you think and feel. That way, it will be 'real' and girls won't get the feeling that something's off about you (because there really isn't!)

If they are picking up on my view of them, I would say it's only SLIGHTLY possible, but come on, what guy around here(or out in the world) DOESN'T think most women are crap. That's what more than half of our discussions are based on here on SoSuave. All the seasoned player's here know this. Player's, correct me if I'm wrong please, but isn't this how most of you feel?

 

[8YearLurker]

remarkable bro, i really want to get to this level.
how did you get there?

I'm not sure, to me it just feels intuitive. My whole purpose in this world is to understand people, it actually stimulates me, makes me happy, and protects me from depression. It also gets me laid and pays the bills.

I wish I could just tear through this screen and fking show you guys what I'm talking about.

 

[edger]

Incongruity, as has been mentioned before, is a major turn off, and what women are generally referring to when they say "creepy." Don't discount women's ability to "read" your "state," even if they have no idea how to describe it other than "creepy," or not creepy.

If you have sexual energy, but you have even the slightest distaste for those you wish to share your sexual energy, that is hugely incongruent, and they will pick up on it despite your acting skills. In a club, they have their defenses on full alert, so it's hard as fukk to fake your way through their bytch shield. One the street, in a bookstore, yea, maybe. But not in a club.

I know you'd rather blame women for not being open to be approached, but all you can change about this problem is your mindset.

Try this experiment. For the next few weeks, go to clubs with only the intention of meeting and talking to girls without getting even their phone numbers. Just to explore their own energy. Try and find something interesting about them, and leave it at that.

You're never gonna be very successful if you have a hatred for that which you pursue. that's pretty much the definition of incongruence.

And unless you are a psychotic, emotionless psychopath, no acting skills can over come incongruence.

Ok, if what you and Die Hard say is so true, then how is it that serial killers who hate and prey on women, are able to seduce them? Good question, eh?

 

[Stagger Lee]

Ok, if what you and Die Hard say is so true, then how is it that serial killers who hate and prey on women, are able to seduce them? Good question, eh?

I just clicked on this thread and this was exactly what I was thinking when I read some of the replies that suggested women are somehow mindreaders, able to sense a man's mentality etc. Women date mental defectives all the time. You could even say they prefer them. The thing is they do not like certain mentalities that's true, but it's mostly them picking up on non verbal cues visually, or more likely your actually words or how you say them. Women are a lot more clueless than some seem to think. Women are not "psychic" or all that perceptive, just nitpicky because they can be.

Edger, you know I'm not trying to dog, and I think there are some changes and different approaches you could take. I've mentioned some of them already. So there's probably something to the advice that you could change up your attitude or approach. No guarantees that will accomplish anything though. I've had the sh!test attitude ever on a few nights and picked up. So go figure lol.

But one big error I think posters make in giving advice is they commit a common faulty attribution of blaming someone else's circumstance on internal factors/personal when they are really attributal to external. you ahve a cause and effect chicken egg dilemma going on as well.

Also they are working on the assumption that every girl problem is solvable. It may not be. Worse they come with the attitude that they have the answers and they themselves are successful. Neither may be true.

Take for instance your natural friend. There's no question he is successful and while maybe not cognizant of why, knows how to pick up women. He also knows you and has spent time with you. On top of that he is your friend, so perhaps has less chance of having questionable motives than strangers or at least he doesn't dislike you personally. And he doesn't even have any clue or answers for you, when he's right there next to you in the clubs and afterwards! What would make you think guys on here have the answers!?

One more thing, just because some guys on here dilike your ego or attitude on here does not mean women will not like you. Often times women like the guy no other guys can stand.

 

[Stagger Lee]

Some great replies here, a few things I want to add:

Yo, you GOTTA learn how to read people, especially women. You need to develop this cerebral ability. Women actually have this sh1t down far greater than men do.

When I walk into a bar, the mall, a bus, a store.. I know who wants me and who doesn't. The best naturals out there have this ability.

I know when I step into a room, which woman I'm making nervous, which woman's pupils are dilating in my presence. Dude become a master at reading body language, facial expression, and nonverbal communication...

I'm so in tune with the thoughts of people in my environment. I have to be for my line of work. If I can't read people, I don't make the bread and I could potentially lose my license to practice.

This ability will let you know who's horny, who wants you, who despises you, who respects you, who's confiding in you, etc.

Despite what this forum thinks, women DO open men. They just do it covertly by bumping into you, finding ways to sit next to you, get in your way, get in your path. That's your sign to move in.. sure beats randomly cold approaching. Those are almost always surefire lays or potential girlfriends, or whatever the hell you're looking for.

You know how I met my last girl? Right on the streets of Midtown Manhattan. As she walked in my direction she arched her back which brought her t1ts up, she started stroking her hair, and walked a helluva lot slower. I was buzzed from the bar but I knew she was doing this all for me. I moved in for the kill, got her number called her a week later and next thing you know we're making out in the downstairs of 'coffee shop' a lounge type place on Union Square.

This actually turned into one of the best relationships I ever had, being that she was sweet, educated, and gorgeous.

It wasn't a cold approach as much as it was me reading her mind. I know it sounds crazy... i know it does..

Everyone's gonna say "oh 90% of approaches never work etc." But my point is don't make it an "approach." Go for the hot women who are giving you Indicators of Interest. And Edger, I know you're getting indicators from hot women, I've read your posts...

Once you get in the door by reading these signs, you can now work on CLOSING, whether it be a lay, a number, an email. Millions of guys get indicators, but how many of them can initiate, move in, and close??

I've been blown out before, I even talked about it in a thread titled "Man, it's so Random." That randomness I was referring to was about ATTRACTION, not pick up.

I also have an issue where I know for a fact a woman is sending me positive signals I just don't fking act on it. This can really cause frustration. I'm working on it.

I'm not perfect but my goal is just to be out in the field as much as possible constantly developing this sixth sense.

This is actually great stuff. The problem with a lot of guys though isn't that they don't pick up on women's signals. The problem is no women are sending them any signals. They are not good enough looking or maybe don't have the appearance that cause attraction. A lot of naturals don't appreciate that they ahve the appearance (not just looks) that attracts while non-natural guys do not.

 

[Die Hard]

I think the error here is you assume there are good reasons for a woman rejecting or accepting a man in the first place, and then you vaguely label that "DJ" and "AFC". I disagree with that assumption. And even if it was true, that does not excuse women calling guys "creeps" or "creepy" who haven't done anything wrong. There's no justification for women doing that.

Women call good guys creeps all the time and call a truely creep of a guy wonderful. You are missing the whole point and gloossing over the fact that women are subjective,capricious, arbitrary, and not to mention most of them have no classs or manners and think it's their right to try to step on amn just because for no good reason they're not attracted to him.

Point taken about the labelling, there are obviously a lot more shades of grey than simply "DJ" and "AFC". But the labels aren't important, my point was that good looks and the right behaviour will seriously reduce the chances of a woman calling you or your actions creepy.

Of course there are good reasons for women to call you or your actions creepy! You think they just flip a coin to decide that?! Sure, there will always be women who will label you a creep no matter what you do or how you look... Sure, under the same circumstances, one woman might label you a creep and the other not... But that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of general rules that greatly reduce the chance of a guy being labelled a creep! It seems like you reason like this: "If not all women apply the same criteria when calling a guy creepy, there is no way at all to know whether a certain woman will call you creepy and it's no use at all to make an effort at reducing the chances of a woman calling you a creep!"

You can't do everything right and make sure no woman will ever call you a creep. But you sure as hell can make sure that it happens only very rarely.

Also, you shouldn't take everything too literally. Suppose you're not interested in a girl who makes a move on you. Next day you tell your buddy about it: "I was totally not interested in that bitch." Do you mean she actually acted like a bitch?

 

[Tazman]

I think it's all about initiative. For some reason, you are unwilling to take risks when it comes to possible rejection.

We're all "naturals", but we don't all have the same personalities, dispositions and cultural/environmental backgrounds.

The guys I've seen get a lot of ass are simply more "proactive" about getting it, they put forth more effort, it's more of a hobby for them. What you probably don't see is that they do fail sometimes, but it doesn't stop them. Certain things will make it easier for some guys than others, but trust me, there's no magic recipe in doing it.

Women are definitely not psychic, if they were I'd still be a virgin. If you see a girl you're attracted to and the opportunity presents itself, genuinely approach her and talk to her like you give a damn about her, worry about the other details after you hook her.

If she seems uninterested simply leave the way you approached, no harm no foul. It's tough to do in the beginning, but if you're good at reading body language you can really minimize your risk (bruised ego).

 

[Stagger Lee]

Point taken about the labelling, there are obviously a lot more shades of grey than simply "DJ" and "AFC". But the labels aren't important, my point was that good looks and the right behaviour will seriously reduce the chances of a woman calling you or your actions creepy.

Of course there are good reasons for women to call you or your actions creepy! You think they just flip a coin to decide that?! Sure, there will always be women who will label you a creep no matter what you do or how you look... Sure, under the same circumstances, one woman might label you a creep and the other not... But that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of general rules that greatly reduce the chance of a guy being labelled a creep! It seems like you reason like this: "If not all women apply the same criteria when calling a guy creepy, there is no way at all to know whether a certain woman will call you creepy and it's no use at all to make an effort at reducing the chances of a woman calling you a creep!"

You can't do everything right and make sure no woman will ever call you a creep. But you sure as hell can make sure that it happens only very rarely.

Also, you shouldn't take everything too literally. Suppose you're not interested in a girl who makes a move on you. Next day you tell your buddy about it: "I was totally not interested in that bitch." Do you mean she actually acted like a bitch?

Right, you can't make every girl like you and you want to minimize getting a bad rep whether through making improvements as necessary or changes, but not just give up approaching.

What I'm talking about though is the phenomenom that a guy approaches a girl (actually all the guy has to do is exist and not even approach) and for no good reason other than she's not attracted/interested in him or is a typical actual triffling b!tch, she will label him a "creep" and "creepy". She will permanently form that "opinion" and right there and then tell her friends and everyone else in the world, "that guy is a creep" for the rest of her life. Most everyone will take her literally and agree with her not just girls but guys. The guy now has negative social proof and a damaged rep.

I've seen this happening a lot to guys. They my not even realize it. You'd be surprised at how much as a guy you are liable to be passively c0ckblocked in this manner. Sure, you want to do what you reasonable can to stay out of that trap, but you can't totally control peoples' behavior motivated by competition, jealousy and hostility.

The "creep, creeper, creepy" is a shaming, c0ckblocking label used against males. It has no real meaning or justification. It just means the girl isn't attracted/interested and possibly the guy wasn't AFC enough. The only way to avoid it without completely AFCing and c0ckblocking yourself is to become more attractive to women. It's a win or lose propostionor whatever you call that.

I have to go back to what 8yearlurker said. You need to avoid girls who are not giving you signals and pick up on the ones that are. Problem is you need to be attractive in the first place for girls to send these signals.

 

[Drewskie]

Squirrels...... your first post was excellent man. Thanks.

 

[Die Hard]

She will permanently form that "opinion" and right there and then tell her friends and everyone else in the world, "that guy is a creep" for the rest of her life. Most everyone will take her literally and agree with her not just girls but guys. The guy now has negative social proof and a damaged rep.

Weird... I thought we had established that women labelling you as a creep would be more of an exception than a rule, right? Still, you think that when ONE girl labels you a creep, your ENTIRE social proof will be negative and your ENTIRE rep wil be damaged... This could only be the case if you only approach girls in your direct social circle!

 

[edger]

but the truth is Edgar is throwing off a vibe that women are not attracted to.

Hey, I really hope I am, as I've said before, so I can find out and put closure on this. There's nothing worse that I want more, than to put this to rest once and for all. I've been looking for a while, dauntlessly, but can't place my finger on anything that would be of any major significance. I've been in the game since I'm 11, so I have a good idea on what's a deal breaker and what isn't with a woman. As I will say over and over again, my game isn't perfect by any means, and there are things that I'm pretty sure I might do in an interaction(again, because no guy is perfect), but whatever it is, it's got to be minor. I knew a guy who was a complete weirdo 4 yrs ago, who pulled good-looking women. Around the time I met him, he was involved with a hot older woman in her late 30's or so, who was a Paralegal, who drove a new BMW. And forget the fact that she was "older", the fact is, she was hot, and could still get any guy she wanted, yet she chose to give her body to this weirdo, who would look down on the floor when he talked to you. And not only was he a weirdo, but he also had no job either and lived with his mom at the age of around 32 or so. I mention "living with his mom", because I know women in America tend to frown upon guy's who live with their mom/parent's. All he did was collect money from his prior military service.

Now the latest cop out is "well serial killers and other sociopaths get laid all the time."

Lol, you're seriously telling me serial killers who hate and prey on women, the same women whom they meet and take home, don't seduce these broads? You must be living in a real shell, because it is a fact that this happens. No disrespect with the laughter here, but such a statement like that is quite funny, because of it's unrealism.

 

[wait_out]

Lol, you're seriously telling me serial killers who hate and prey on women, the same women whom they meet and take home, don't seduce these broads? You must be living in a real shell, because it is a fact that this happens. No disrespect with the laughter here, but such a statement like that is quite funny, because of it's unrealism.

You are kind of missing Don's point. Classic serial killers do not consider themselves creepy or doubt their intentions. They are psychopaths. They do not feel guilt or remorse. You are not talking about guys who are frustrated and go crazy (like George Sodini), who are off-putting to women. You're talking about guys like Ted Bundy who have no sympathy, empathy or compassion for others. They are completely 'congruent', they are 100% in their own frame, 100% in the moment, and thus opportunistic.

Does any of this describe you?

If you were in a consistently good mood, you'd be looking to share your emotional high and multiply it by meeting a girl you're attracted to. Approaching girls is compulsive and fun when you're like this; it is the most natural, healthy, and non-creepy thing in the world. You know that 3 second rule? It's meant to convey this. 2 things usually happen when you feel good:
1) The girl likes you and reciprocates. (Q: Hi, how are you? A: Awesome!)
2) The girl blows you out. Well, she obviously has 'issues', and why would a happy person like yourself hang out with a downer like her? Calling you a creep is cancelled out by fact that she's no fun.

Girls don't know guys as well as we know guys, they don't understand them, and they don't pick them well. You will just have to adapt to that fact and do your best not to resent them for it -- or judge yourself for their (very limited) opinions of you. Girls can be pretty stupid Edger. Even feminists admit that.