Help! Possible Cluster B- Feeling Totally Lost

[georgie24]

i dont understand how someone could end up married to a BPD (unless they marry very early on in their relationship and they dont know the girl well enough)

wont guys see the huge warning signs and end the relationship or can these girls HIDE their emotionally craziness until they finally get the guy to commit to marriage, no matter how long it can take for the guy to propose?

or are these guys simply that weak they choose to ignore the huge warning signs?

we get blinded by thier illusion, very very clever these gilrs and they put in the work even if it means them acting normal for a while.

its a tought one, however once your ravished by one and choose to hang on for the bull ride thats on the individual.:woo:

 

[Findog]

Ugh!

I set up a profile on OKC after my ex dumped me. I did a lot of casual dating, even bedded three girls, but haven't yet met anybody that I desired being in a relationship with. I think a big part of that is that I have been working on healing and getting over the ex and it is hard to make a connection when you are not completely emotionally available. I hadn't deleted my account, but I hadn't been active on the site recently. I was not initiating any messaging with women. I had resolved to work on myself more, try to indulge more hobbies and interests, make new friends and strengthen existing friendships, and make more of an effort to date in a few months.

I wake up today and get an email alerting me somebody has sent me a message on OKC. I do log in out of curiosity and read a short generic getting to know you kind of message. I browse to the girl's profile to read it and look at her pictures. Guess who appears in two of this girl's pictures? Yep, my ex.

I think the whole thing is just a big coincidence. I don't think this person knows who I am. I don't recognize her at all though. If I had to guess, she appears to be somebody my ex became friends with after we split. We spent almost every single weekend together when we were a couple and I'm confident I met pretty much all of her friends at the time.

I'm not going to write this person back obviously, but it is upsetting. I avoid looking at my ex's facebook because I regard that as breaking NC, because you are getting a glimpse of their world. I guess I can deduce that she took down all of our pictures together, because I'm sure this person is fb friends with her and otherwise would recognize me as her ex. But nevertheless, I have gotten a glimpse of my ex's world after me. She appears in two pictures. In one, she and the girl who wrote me are posing together smiling. They appear to be on the outdoor patio of a bar. My ex is wearing a blouse I don't recognize, so I assume this is recent. In the other, they are smiling and posing together, apparently at some sort of outdoor concert on the green where you take lawn chairs and blankets.

It brings back all the feelings I've been working on trying to process - the lack of closure, not understanding it, the hurt of losing her, feeling like I have struggled to enjoy my life fully while healing whereas she appears to have moved on to a carefree existence. Who knows what is really going on in her life, almost all of us smile while posing for pictures.

 

[SmackinIsaiah]

I guess Findog wasn't too successful at hijacking the thread.

Last and final update.

Zero contact with her unless it was business matters the past month, she wound up moving out of the apartment we shared after making a huge fuss about it when we split about wanting to keep it....*****. However, once she saw my new gf and I driving past her on the street, the subtle texts started coming again.

Last week, Cat got really sick and she was freaking out, saying she was scared of the "mean vet" and that I knew the cat better then anyone but her, and it was still half mine (also contested during the breakup) and begged me to go see the vet with her. I went, cause I thought the cat was actually going to die. She called me Saturday morning to tell me the cat had surgery and is doing better but was acting really strange. During the trip to the vet, she even said she was having a moral dilemma about the anniversary cake we bought 2 years ago and kept in the freezer, whether to eat it or keep it..

I tell her to call the (mean) vet that did the surgery, she said she had his number but it was given to her for personal reasons. She then mentions that she had a date with him the previous night before the surgery.

I didn't make a thing of it, cause she can date whoever she wants. But after I got off the phone, I realized that this was truly the last time my boundary would be crossed, dating the vet after begging me to come with her to bring the cat in a few nights prior.

I called her back, asked how the cat was, then told her that we shouldn't talk on the phone anymore. She agreed. I reiterated saying,

"No, I don't want you to contact me again."

At this point I could hear her choke up, I don't think she was expecting me to say that. She said ok and hung up the phone, no goodbye.

That was enough disrespect on her part, the condom on the pillow, moving out of the apartment after making a huge case on wanting to stay four months prior, and generally just being a heartless *****.

Dating the vet was the icing on the cake. Oh, to follow up on her moral dilemma, I told her to eat the cake.

She tried to draw me back in, she wanted to have it, and eat it too.

I should have done this a long long time ago.

 

[The_411]

I guess Findog wasn't too successful at hijacking the thread.

Last and final update.

Zero contact with her unless it was business matters the past month, she wound up moving out of the apartment we shared after making a huge fuss about it when we split about wanting to keep it....*****. However, once she saw my new gf and I driving past her on the street, the subtle texts started coming again.

Last week, Cat got really sick and she was freaking out, saying she was scared of the "mean vet" and that I knew the cat better then anyone but her, and it was still half mine (also contested during the breakup) and begged me to go see the vet with her. I went, cause I thought the cat was actually going to die. She called me Saturday morning to tell me the cat had surgery and is doing better but was acting really strange. During the trip to the vet, she even said she was having a moral dilemma about the anniversary cake we bought 2 years ago and kept in the freezer, whether to eat it or keep it..

I tell her to call the (mean) vet that did the surgery, she said she had his number but it was given to her for personal reasons. She then mentions that she had a date with him the previous night before the surgery.

I didn't make a thing of it, cause she can date whoever she wants. But after I got off the phone, I realized that this was truly the last time my boundary would be crossed, dating the vet after begging me to come with her to bring the cat in a few nights prior.

I called her back, asked how the cat was, then told her that we shouldn't talk on the phone anymore. She agreed. I reiterated saying,

"No, I don't want you to contact me again."

At this point I could hear her choke up, I don't think she was expecting me to say that. She said ok and hung up the phone, no goodbye.

That was enough disrespect on her part, the condom on the pillow, moving out of the apartment after making a huge case on wanting to stay four months prior, and generally just being a heartless *****.

Dating the vet was the icing on the cake. Oh, to follow up on her moral dilemma, I told her to eat the cake.

She tried to draw me back in, she wanted to have it, and eat it too.

I should have done this a long long time ago.

There's no level they can't stoop to as evidenced by what just transpired. The only way is to get untangled as fast as possible and block any future contact.

It's all about manipualtion and what's good for her. Your feelings mean nothing ...

 

[st_99]

She then mentions that she had a date with him the previous night before the surgery.

.

Can you smell the desperation? The ONLY reason she would say that is to get under your skin. And why do people dig at other people? Because they care. Thats why. So, she either is a misandrist (hates ALL men) or she just wants to get at you. Either way, its time to never talk to her again.

 

[SecondHalf]

^^^ what he said!

What you should have replied is that you have more than enough pussies in your life right now and she should certainly be able to handle a second one.

SH

 

[49au]

Good thread, I just read all of it.


Findog,

I too am in the process of forgiving one of these girls. I broke up with her about 10 weeks ago. At the time I didn't believe she had BPD, but after extensive time studying this forum, bpdfamily, psychforums, Shari's site (that is the one that really did it for me), and excerpts from books, I am 100% confident she has BPD.

Here are specific things I am focusing on to help forgive her and move on, beyond the stock "go fvck other women" crap you hear on this forum all the time:

1) Accept that her actions have absolutely nothing to do with you. She has a serious mental disorder, a disorder so powerful that many professionals do not treat it, and many who do will only treat one at a time. When we lose these women, we beat the hell out of ourselves. "If only..." But the fact is that they are borderline psychotics (hence the term "borderline" - their constant teetering between mild neuroticism and delusional psychosis) means that there is literally nothing you could ever do to maintain a healthy, functional relationship with them. They hate themselves - how could they ever love ANYONE else?

2) You are not in love with her. Adult love is based on mutual respect, trust, and admiration. Rather, you are in love with idealized version of her, and the feelings she provoked in you. Recognize that every positive thing she once made you feel is already inside you; you do not need another person to draw it out. In other words, you do not need HER to create those positive sensations. You haven't lost your "soulmate" or anything like that.

3) She did not intend to hurt you, and she is in much more pain than you will ever be able to imagine.

4) Exercise compassion both for her and for yourself. You aren't an idiot for "loving" her (though in time I think you'll find that it wasn't true love). Everyone talks about how BPDs project and idealize their partners, but there is very little talk of how much we do that to them. These women can sometimes touch deep seated issues (usually mother-son issues) within men, which is what mine (and a couple of other girls in my past) did to me.

There is an unhealthy narcissism and "savior complex" that we often experience with these girls that causes us to go into their fog and do anything to try to "save" them, and to want them back even when they abuse our love. The important thing is to forgive yourself for your own weakness, view yourself with compassion, and focus on meeting the emotional needs that made you vulnerable to her in the first place. I would strongly recommend therapy. Not to get over her, but to examine yourself.

Secondly, forgive her. It is not anyone's fault that they have BPD. That does not mean that her actions are appropriate, healthy, or should be condoned. It also does not mean that they are fit for relationships. I am not saying any of that. I'm saying that you have experienced someone whose self-loathing, pain, fear, and despair is unfathomable, and she will be this way FOREVER. Honestly? I pity my ex. I'm not going to be her tampon, her therapist, her friend, or anything else, but I pity her. I hope she gets help. I hope yours gets help. It may not seem like it sometimes, but these women are MISERABLE. They are broken, hurting, and lost in ways that you and I will never be. And the good news is that WE have the capacity to examine our wounds, move forward, and become stronger men with stronger boundaries and more to offer a healthy woman. But our exes? They will continue to drift in the black void they call their life.


The last two points have been disputed in this thread so I'm going to write another post with a different perspective.


Also -

It brings back all the feelings I've been working on trying to process - the lack of closure, not understanding it, the hurt of losing her, feeling like I have struggled to enjoy my life fully while healing whereas she appears to have moved on to a carefree existence.

If you think that a woman with BPD can have a carefree existence, you do not understand this disorder.

As far as her forgetting you - BPDs do not grieve, they repress. Devaluation and splitting are their bread and butter. It's how they avoid asking themselves, "Why did I push a good man away?" She will revise history and find some way to make you unsuitable, find some reason why it would never have worked anyway, etc. It's like a psychological levee they build in order to keep out memories and feelings which will lead to pain, which will lead to introspection and accountability. They are obviously terrified of these things. This "levee" can consist of lies she tells herself about you, some new guy, her career, anything to distract her.

Weeks or months later, that levee will probably break. And when that happens, she will go through the pain she DIDN'T go through at the beginning. This is why you will read so much about them re-engaging, "hoovering", etc. They never really get over anyone. They just bury, bury, bury.

 

[49au]

There is a very unhealthy idea (IMHO) on this forum that BPDs intentionally "victimize" and manipulate men only to leave them. Yet I think, as Die Hard said, it is naive to give them that much credit. BPDs have been called "evil", "vampires", etc., but in reality they are just very sick people whose brains simply don't process the world correctly. This means that they leave a trail of destruction, but it does not mean that they intended to.

This is due to both nature AND nurture. These people experience childhood trauma of some sort, and are stuck around 3 years old in their psychological development (nurture) Yet it has been shown that there are physical differences in a BPD's brain (nature).


Proponents of this idea will argue that BPDs are hyper-emotional and experience wild highs and lows, then turn around and say that these women feel nothing for their victims. This is contradictory. The problem is not LACK of emotion, it is dysregulation of emotion.

These men will also argue that borderline women are grand schemers and masterful manipulators who plot things weeks and months in advance... while in the same post conceding that BPDs have the emotional and psychological capacity of a 3 year old.

I don't know a whole lot of 3 year olds who are capable of grand, complex schemes. Yes, borderline women CAN be extremely intelligent (mine has maintained nearly flawless grades through 3+ years of med school), but their emotional intelligence is practically zero. Combine this with their inability to regulate emotion, their sheer impulsiveness, and I find it hard to believe that these women intentionally lay complex plans for the future.

As mine told me from the very beginning, "I'm not a planner. I hate plans." (One of the few things I believe her about now )



BPDs are addicted to the longing for love. They will chase it, and re-live childhood abandonment over and over and over again. This is their subconscious drive. Consciously, however, they are desperately looking for "The One", that magical person who will cure their problems and fill the giant void they have in place of a true sense of self.

Someone like that recycles men not because they hate men; but because they are constantly realizing that the new guy is not providing that magic bullet, the wholeness they are seeking. The difference between a normal person and a BPD is that a BPD is capable of realizing, "This person is not going to make me whole," but they are too childlike to realize that "no other person is ever going to make me whole." The cycle repeats because they are incapable of connecting the dots and realizing that the problem is not the men in their cycle, the problem is the goal of the cycle.

In the beginning, they desperately want to love you. They want you to be "The One." And they think you are. And they are full of love for you (or what they interpret as love)!

Too many guys are listening to this "she never loved you" line, and it is both wrong and damaging. You are left with the impression that it was all a lie, and it wasn't. Was it real, healthy, reciprocal adult love? No... but it was not a cold, conscious manipulation. She wanted it just as much as you did. She wanted the pain to go away.

I am finally realizing what mine meant when she told me post-breakup, "I gave you my heart. What I felt for you was real. But I've given so many pieces of my heart away that I have nothing left to give." At the time it sounded like contradictory drivel; but during that very lucid period, she gave me a glimpse into her miserable life of pouring herself into guy after guy after guy, trying to find that "special" one that would fix everything from her childhood. And when she sensed that I wanted something from her, a real intimacy, she instinctively knew that she was not healthy enough to give it to me. She was not "on my level", with regard to emotional capacity. It's the same for all of them.


Remember, BPD is a personality disorder. It is not just some random neurotic behavior like biting your nails or having a fear of spiders. It is a pervasive infection of the psyche that makes these women view the world in an irrational and sometimes downright psychotic way. The way they act is terrible, hurtful, manipulative, and yes, we must avoid them at all costs. But that doesn't mean they are going around trying to victimize everyone.

Deep down, they are little children struggling with shame, self-hate, fear, confusion, rejection, and an overwhelming desire for love. Their motives are not nearly as sinister - or complex - as some would imagine.


The "hate your BPD ex because she is a psycho manipulative witch who never loved you" mindset does NOT lead to true healing. It leads to bitterness and a victim mentality. You are hers forever, whether you're in her world or not. And what's truly sick about it is that you are employing the same defense mechanisms to shield your psyche from the pain of losing her that she uses to defend from the pain of confronting herself: splitting and devaluation.

I think the proper attitude is to recognize that a) these women are severely disordered b) they really did love you (in their way) but the disorder will ALWAYS win c) they had/have good qualities that you can enjoy in a future woman d) the relationship was NOT all bad e) there WERE moments of sincerity and humanity in the relationship f) you will come out of this a stronger man.

 

[Atom Smasher]

I agree with everything you've said, having lived through all that recently.

I thought that your points were the general consensus of most men here, though. The tone and verbage might on the surface imply that BPDs are acting with intent, but that might be because many men are describing the symptoms and behaviors from the perspective of "Beware...This type of woman is extremely dangerous and will erode you".

You have excellent insight into the disorder. Experience really can be the best teacher, eh?

+1

 

[49au]

Thanks Atom Smasher.

I am talking about posts like the following, and some others in this thread and forum:

Cluster B is merely a personality disorder that means women who fit into this category will display certain types of feelings. If they choose to act on those feelings, they are simply selfish witches. In reality, Cluster B's simply are in control of their behavour, and their manipulative ways are highly treatable by actually taking responsibility for their habits of acting on their feelings.

...

Cluster B's by contrast are simply not mentally ill people. Let's eradicate this untruth. They are perfectly sane, intelligent women whom are perfectly aware of their behaviour, but their need to pander to their low self esteem issues will mean they usually CHOOSE to behave the way they do, even when they are perfectly aware of what they are doing and how hurtful they can be.

First of all, the phrase "merely a personality disorder" is very dismissive of the seriousness of this condition. It is not something they do. It is something they are. Someone made a comment which seemed to suggest that healing or controlling BPD is easy and they simply choose not to; the fact is that from everything I've read, successful treatment of BPD is extremely rare. And traditional psychotherapy won't work... DBT or schema therapy is needed. But in some cases I've read about people enduring many years of therapy before they were considered "treated."

Everything with a Cluster B is a defense mechanism. They are no different in that regard than any normal person. Only the methods of defense and survival differ.

Emotional dysregulation is also a hallmark of BPD. They are ruled by impulse. Yes, I suppose it's fair to say that they consciously make a choice such as, "I will cheat on my boyfriend" or "I will leave my husband." But the reasons they make these choices are not the same reasons that normal people might; and they are also crippled by a dampened ability to reject impulses that would lead to inappropriate behavior.

Their brains simply don't operate in the way others do.

...

My guess is that you make sense of other issues in your life by using your own moral standards as a benchmark for what you expert others to do.

...

Moreover, they are incapable feeling empathy even if they were aware of this and wanted to feel it.

Ironically, I think this kind of proves my point.

These people are severely disordered, and do not process events/statements/feelings rationally. They can certainly feel that something is "different" with them, but that still does not change their nature.

They do not view their actions as something done to hurt others. They view them as something done to protect themselves. There is nothing cunning or malicious in that at all. Their "standards" and experience are just different than ours.

 

[5string]

What you guys need to understand is that BPD cannot be cured. Only managed, and even that is the rare exception, not the rule.

 

[The_411]

Rep to you 49au

I think people are too quick to put everything on someone with BPD and go udner the assumption that BPD = sociopath.

It's much more complex than that. It's unknown whether it's a genetically predisposed or learned disorder or a combination of both.

The real problem is that the people that engage with BPD women need to check themselves and ask questions of themselves as to why they tolerated the BPD behaviors and didn't eject.

"Trouble finds trouble" This isn't an assault on those who got involved with a BPD but rather a wake call that when you get invovled with a crazy person then you need to figure out why and that chances are if you don't figure out why you'll do again and again.

People with BPD are in essence brain damaged in that they do not have the ability to reconcile that their poor behavior carries consequences and that eventually the rubber band breaks when you keep stretching it.

For them every day life is the equivalent of being in extremes. Either they are emotionally charged or flatlined. Emotions are ampliflied to extreme levels.

I don't want this to be seen as me taking up for feeling sorry as I don't it's more pity really.

I was hurt badly by my BPDex but ultimately I was able to accept that she was incapable of love beyond a superficial level.

That's what it comes down to is understanding that all the anger in the end is irrelveant because it's like getting mad at some with paralysis because they can't walk. Sure through extreme physical therapy over years they might be able to, but odds are rare and there are no guarentees.

The same goes for someone with BPD. It takes years of therapy to unravel the mess and even then being "cured" isn't being cured but rather being able to manage and cope.

 

[49au]

Thanks.

Yes, they do leave us with interesting questions about ourselves and why we tolerated their behavior for so long - and why secretly we may even still want them back.

What's weird is that I was seeing several girls when I met mine, but I was fairly serious about one of them. I chose my ex over her and one of the reasons was that I felt the girl was "too emotional" and I was disgusted by how jealous/insecure she was. Yet my ex was TEN TIMES more emotional, clingy, paranoid, insecure, and childish - and I absolutely ate it up. I thrived on it.

They were both attractive, sexual women who showered me with attention. I have no idea what made me repulsed by one and drawn to the other.


I think we project just as much onto them as they do onto us. We feel powerful trying to "save" these women, and powerful that they "love" and "need" us so much. And we are so "in love" with them because in reality they are our own narcissistic extensions, and we are actually loving ourselves and the sense of power.

Throw in some mother-son issues, their attractiveness, the sex, the power and validation they make us feel... it's easy for some men to get hooked.

 

[Atom Smasher]

It is true, I feel very sorry for my ex even though she made life difficult for me. It breaks my heart to think of her as a little girl going through whatever she went through that made her that way.

 

[Die Hard]

Great insights, guys.


Still, one should take the following into account:

* One can look at these girls and the disorder from a "scientific" viewpoint, objectively and purely analytically, without any of your own emotions being involved. Your only goal here, is getting objective information.

* On the other hand, one can look at these girls and the disorder from a "personal" viewpoint, where one's main goal is not to objectively analyse them, but to recover from the damage this girl and her disorder have inflicted onto you.


This is where the difference lies. Objectively, these girls are not "evil", but when you are the one who's soul just got destroyed by such a girl, she sure as hell is "evil" in your eyes. And she SHOULD be!!

Why? Coz you're not gonna be able to recover if you don't look at her this way! An attitude of forgiveness and objectivity is self-damaging in such situations, you have to get angry and hate her in order to get over the experience. At least, that's what I've learned from my own experiences with them and I've observed the same thing with many other guys.

Whenever a person has been traumatized, whenever a person has been subject to a very painful experience brought upon him by someone else, it is imperative this person empowers himself. When you choose to remain passive and let the situation/other person beat down on you, you will not be able to recover. An active approach to the situation and the "perpetrator" is absolutely neccessary in order to recover. You have to fight back...
Because, psychologically, you're in a situation of pure survival, a live or die situation.

Imagine taking a trip through the woods and encountering a wild dog. It attacks you and attempts to kill you, and if you do not fight back, it will kill you. From a scientific, analytical, objective viewpoint, the animal's intention is not to hurt you, the animal is not "evil". It just feels threatened by you, or it's starved and needs to eat you. It's behaviour is understandable, it is not intentionally being mean to you, it just tries to protect itself! But if you took this attitude, you probably wouldn't survive... You should not allow yourself to think of the animal in such a way! What? You're gonna tell yourself: "Aww, it just wants to protect itself, it doesn't intentionally mean me harm...it's just confused and doesn't really know what it's doing! So I won't hold anything against it, I won't be angry at it for it's behaviour, the animal just can't help itself...

No... You better DO hold it's behaviour against it! You better get REALLY ANGRY and start viewing the animal as EVIL, you better adopt a really AGGRESSIVE attitude towards this animal and really HATE it. For if you don't, it will rip your throat and leave you to die. You're gonna have to fight the beast with your bare hands and at this point all objective analysis should be abandoned, coz it will get you killed. You should view the animal as the most evil creature in the universe, as the greatest enemy you ever encountered. Anything less than this attitude, and you will not survive....

Same goes for recovering from a BPD. Objective, scientific analysis has no place in this situation. It's a situation of pure survival and you better hate the girl with all your being if you wanna get out of this situation, you better think of her as an EVIL being, as the DEVIL himself!

Once you've recovered from the severe trauma these girls can inflict on you, go ahead and engage in scientific, objective analysis all you want... But not a moment sooner!


Sure, there's the path of forgiveness... I've seen a documentary about Buddhist monks who were put in camps by the Chinese. The guards would beat the monks up with thick wooden sticks and tell their friends to drink warm soup made of their own SH!T if they wanted them to stop beating up their fellow monks. These monks were in the camps for years... In interviews afterwards, they said they held no negative feelings towards the guards etc. They chose to think the guards just didn't know any better and viewed the guards with an attitude of forgiveness.

Sure, if you believe in that sh!t, go ahead and live your life that way, turn the other cheek. But these people live life according to this attitude all the way, they deny their basic needs, they deny themselves and whatever they long for, they deny themselves pleasure etc. They believe in this attitude all the way and live like this all the way. Only if you do the same, would I advice you to approach BPD's with forgiveness and allow yourself to approach them and your traumatized situation with an attitude of objective, scientific analysis. If you are not such a person, then I strongly recommend you to fight for your psychological survival and HATE your BPD girl with all your guts!!

Fvck the passivist approach... Scientists look at criminals and explain their behaviour from their abused past, say that their behaviour is simply a result of their inner pain etc. Fine, scientifically, it might be the truth. But if some sick criminal enters their house, they will get their wife raped and get killed... Good luck with your scientific analysis!! On the other hand, there's Charles Bronson "Death Wish" types, who don't give a crap about the criminal's youth, the reasons for his behavior, the question whether the criminal is intentionally hurting other people and whether he's even aware of all the pain he's inflicting onto others. These types just grab their shotgun and blast the criminal's head off... Who cares about scientific analysis? Better care about preserving yourself!!

Yes, I'm able to look at BPD's from a objective viewpoint, as some of my earlier posts demonstrate, 49au. But when I encounter one of these chicks, all of that goes out the window and I'll treat them as the enemy. Everyone who values his own mental health, should do the same. I get your point, though...some guys on here are not able to differentiate between the two viewpoints.

 

[49au]

So in other words, use the same childlike defense mechanisms (splitting/devaluation) she does, against her?

What does that make us? Men, or children? You see how far that gets them... bury/repress/kill feelings instead of working through. That's their MO and it sounds as if that is what you are advocating for us to do as well?


I appreciate your post and I understand what you are trying to say. But I think you can forgive without forgetting, love but let go, and pity her without pitying yourself. If hate is your reason for staying away, you have not done the appropriate work within yourself. Self-respect is the proper reason to stay away from them, and when we have plenty of this, we can reject anything without hating it.

As with any loss, we are going to experience the different stages of grief, one of which is anger. But to stay stuck there is to never heal. To hate her, is to let her own you forever.



I think the most dangerous thing about this philosophy that you must hate them to protect yourself versus simply letting it go and establishing better boundaries/self-respect, is that hating one BPD doesn't protect you from others. Better to do just the proper inner work, and you won't have to worry about it again. That's what I'm focusing on.... and surprisingly, I'm finding that the less I think about her and the more I think about myself and WHY I put up with her, the more I realize the pain I felt wasn't really about HER to BEGIN with. She is mattering less and less, I am mattering more and more. And I'm doing this without hating her at all.

 

[Paintballguy]

I think it takes a stronger mentality to forgive and let go instead of hating someone forever.

 

[Die Hard]

bury/repress/kill feelings instead of working through. That's their MO and it sounds as if that is what you are advocating for us to do as well?

Absolutely not. You got it all backwards: if you adopt a forgiving attitude towards the person who traumatized you and take an analytical viewpoint towards them, you are denying, (repressing, burying, whatever you call it) your own feelings and your own well being. You are rationalizing and disregarding the feelings you need in order to recover. You need to adopt an attitude where feelings of hate and anger come to the surface, for they will catalyst your fight to overcome your trauma. If you choose to repress these feelings by taking the moral high ground and rationalizing to yourself that these feelings are "wrong", you will not be able to sufficiently recover from the trauma you've experienced.

Now I haven't read your posts in detail, just quickly scrolled through them... So I don't know how extensive your experience with these kind of situations is, but if you are able to fully recover from a serious case of BPD trauma without allowing yourself such feelings, you are an exceptional person in my eyes...

As with any loss, we are going to experience the different stages of grief, one of which is anger. But to stay stuck there is to never heal

I never recommended to stay stuck there...

I think it takes a stronger mentality to forgive and let go instead of hating someone forever.

:crackup: First of all, I never recommended to hate someone forever. Secondly, who cares about the question which path takes a stronger mentality? You're mistaking the survival of a traumatic experience for a contest where the goal is to show "stronger mentality". Have fun playing your contest, I'd rather put my priority at ensuring that I recover from the traumatic experience. To each his own, I guess...

 

[49au]

Die Hard,

As long as you are not advocating hating them forever (though I think hating them at ALL is very unhealthy, there is a difference between righteous anger and hate), I don't think we really have much of a disagreement.


I am fortunate in that mine did not do many of the things that some of the extreme cases here report (physical violence, police reports, banging 50 other guys, etc.). Never the less, I did go through a period of anger. It's natural and part of what I referred to when I mentioned "working through." I experienced a lot of huge shifts in my perception during the first 2-3 weeks after the breakup. I let myself experience all those feelings and I did not judge any of them, even when they conflicted or seemed stupid (on a logical level).

And I agree that anger serves as a catalyst to remove us from an unhealthy situation and let us heal. But anger should never be our final sentiment because anger means attachment. And we don't need to be attached to these women in ANY way. I don't think we disagree here.

I would just warn that if someone plans on using anger (and especially hate) to "protect" themselves from their BPD ex, they are fighting a losing battle and ignoring the real, lasting inner work that needs to be done..... just like their "enemy" is. This is why you constantly read about BPDs sucking their ex back in, even after horrible behavior. Anger can only hold up so long under their tearful apologies and manipulations.

 

[Atom Smasher]

I'm convinced that the reason BPDs are impossible to cure is that although they are usually hyper-feminine and gentle on the outside, they are actually massively arrogant and aggressive. It's an odd, incongruent dichotomy. They are sweet and gentle on the outside but massively proud and self-righteous on the inside. Of course we all understand that this is a mechanism that is in place in order to hold them together so they don't self-destruct.

I look at this basic arrogance as old, worn out duct tape that is periodcally caked onto their inner psyche just to prevent self-destruction.

I think the most effective thing to do is to realize that these women are severely mentally ill, andalthough they "should" know better, they are absolute slaves to their emotions and are severely socially miscalibrated. They don't have a foothold from which to effect change, nor can they see their own issue.

For me, I don't hate my ex. I truly despise and I do hold her accountable for her arrogance and aggressiveness (which would only pop out once in a while), but I recognize her as being helpless to change.

My job is to recognize the symptoms and to dodge the bullets as new BPDs cross my path. They are sick, sick women with no way out, and I pity them.

Men, study up on the symptoms and beware. Once you understand the symptoms, you can sense the vortex that will suck the very life out of you as soon as you start conversing with her. It is almost a supernatural thing, though I'm sure in reality there is a rational explanation.

Remember a few years ago in the news when in India all the elephant statues were "drinking" milk through their trunks? I think the "god" is called "Ganesh" or something similar. Too lazy to look it up.

Anyway, every night on the news you would see these guys hoding a spoon of milk up the the outside of the statues' trunks, and the milk would be sucked right out of the spoon.

The explanation is that action capillary of the stone sucked the milk out of the spoon and it was absorbed.

That's exactly what happens to your spirit as a man when you are involved with a BPD woman. The disease itself immediately sucks the life-blood out of you just like capillary astion of stone will soak up a liquid. You don't have a say in the matter. I repeat, you don't have a say. It is a phenomenon that just happens.

I'm going to post later about my online brush this week with a BPD. She stuck to the script perfectly, but now that I know what BPD is I was able to recognize it and dispatch her.