Frame it as a date or not?

[pkcowboy]

Here is my situation: I met a girl in my class who is cute. I chatted her up a bit then asked her out for coffee. We went out for coffee and spent two hours just chatting and vibing and having a good time. I DHVd a lot and did some light kino, teased her lightly, and gave other IOI's to her. In return, I got IOI's back from her, such as her asking questions about me, her holding my long gazes, and her touching me lightly. But she paid for her coffee and I paid for mine. At the end of the date, we hugged and parted ways.

Now here is my dilemma: was that even a date? And if I want a second date, how do I frame it?

I have a sticking point: I usually end up in the friend zone because I try to be all PUA and avoid framing things as dates, and then I miss escalation cues and two dates go by and I haven't even held the girl's hand or kissed her! Whereas, in the past when I have framed things as a date, I am more comfortable just getting romantic and heating things up and holding hands and kissing.

Now I don't have ONEitis over this girl. I don't care if it works or not. I just want help with my sticking point, because I've got other phones numbers and dates to make with cute girls, and I want to get my technique right.

So when I go to ask her out for the second date, I have two choices: say something ambiguous like "What are your plans for Saturday? I want to check out this museum and get dinner at this cool xyz restaurant. Care to join me?"

The problem with this I feel is that the ambiguous frame makes it harder for me to escalate, as it makes things like holding hands and kissing more awkward for me to attempt since I haven't made my romantic intentions clear.

The alternative is to be CLEAR that this is a date and say "What are your plans for Saturday? There's this cool museum of xyz and xyz restaurant that seem interesting. I had fun with you the other night and I'd like to take you out."

Would the latter technique scare her off? Create too much pressure? Cause her to lose attraction as she thinks she's already won? Or does it display confidence since it is clear and not wishy washy?

What do you guys think?

 

[happyDJ]

Here is my situation: I met a girl in my class who is cute. I chatted her up a bit then asked her out for coffee. We went out for coffee and spent two hours just chatting and vibing and having a good time. I DHVd a lot and did some light kino, teased her lightly, and gave other IOI's to her. In return, I got IOI's back from her, such as her asking questions about me, her holding my long gazes, and her touching me lightly. But she paid for her coffee and I paid for mine. At the end of the date, we hugged and parted ways.

Now here is my dilemma: was that even a date? And if I want a second date, how do I frame it?

I have a sticking point: I usually end up in the friend zone because I try to be all PUA and avoid framing things as dates, and then I miss escalation cues and two dates go by and I haven't even held the girl's hand or kissed her! Whereas, in the past when I have framed things as a date, I am more comfortable just getting romantic and heating things up and holding hands and kissing.

Now I don't have ONEitis over this girl. I don't care if it works or not. I just want help with my sticking point, because I've got other phones numbers and dates to make with cute girls, and I want to get my technique right.

So when I go to ask her out for the second date, I have two choices: say something ambiguous like "What are your plans for Saturday? I want to check out this museum and get dinner at this cool xyz restaurant. Care to join me?"

The problem with this I feel is that the ambiguous frame makes it harder for me to escalate, as it makes things like holding hands and kissing more awkward for me to attempt since I haven't made my romantic intentions clear.

The alternative is to be CLEAR that this is a date and say "What are your plans for Saturday? There's this cool museum of xyz and xyz restaurant that seem interesting. I had fun with you the other night and I'd like to take you out."

Would the latter technique scare her off? Create too much pressure? Cause her to lose attraction as she thinks she's already won? Or does it display confidence since it is clear and not wishy washy?

What do you guys think?

By now, she either likes you or doesn't.
Asking her out makes no difference in whether she wants to date you, kiss you whatever.
You're the prize.
Just say "I'm going to this, if you want come along", or tell her "last time was not bad, we now have an official date" or whatever. Make her laugh, kino, read stuff on the kiss close.
You're the prize.

 

[d0g]

pkcowboy, you've articulated something that I've been thinking about ever since I started reading SS.

Pre-SS, my usual method was this: after meeting a girl at some social event, or via friends, etc., I'd get either her number or her e-mail address, and I would contact her with a message like this: "Hey, this is d0g. I had fun meeting you last Thursday at the whateverevent. I'd like to take you out for dinner sometime. Are you interested, and if so, when are you free?"

The reason I did this was exactly the one you mention: I wanted to make sure to avoid the friendzone by making it explicit that I was asking her out on a date. This method also had the benefit that I wouldn't waste any time with girls who had boyfriends, or girls who were just not interested in me. This method served me well, in the sense that I never got friendzoned when I used it.

Of course the standard rebuttals to this approach from SS are that:

1. By offering the dinner straight-up, you're making it appear too much like you're chasing her.

2. You're making the girl make a more high-pressure decision about whether she wants to go on a date with you or not, before you've had a chance to build attraction properly. By presenting your first "date" as a casual meetup, you lower the pressure on the girl, and give yourself a chance to make her attracted to her when you're with her one-on-one for a decent amount of time.

These are good arguments, but I've definitely had more of my time wasted when using the "casual meetup" method, due to girls not being interested or having boyfriends.

For the past year or so, I've been making all my first "dates" a meetup at a bar for a drink. This seems to weed out girls who have boyfriends (no girl who's into her boyfriend is going to go for a one-on-one drink with a random guy), and I think is lower pressure than dinner. And it definitely doesn't pedestalize them. I also find it easier to kino in a bar/lounge, where there's less possibility we'll end up sitting across from each other, out of arm's reach (like in many coffee places). (Low-light and some booze also help my cause.)

Later,
d0g

 

[pkcowboy]

pkcowboy, you've articulated something that I've been thinking about ever since I started reading SS.

Pre-SS, my usual method was this: after meeting a girl at some social event, or via friends, etc., I'd get either her number or her e-mail address, and I would contact her with a message like this: "Hey, this is d0g. I had fun meeting you last Thursday at the whateverevent. I'd like to take you out for dinner sometime. Are you interested, and if so, when are you free?"

The reason I did this was exactly the one you mention: I wanted to make sure to avoid the friendzone by making it explicit that I was asking her out on a date. This method also had the benefit that I wouldn't waste any time with girls who had boyfriends, or girls who were just not interested in me. This method served me well, in the sense that I never got friendzoned when I used it.

Of course the standard rebuttals to this approach from SS are that:

1. By offering the dinner straight-up, you're making it appear too much like you're chasing her.

2. You're making the girl make a more high-pressure decision about whether she wants to go on a date with you or not, before you've had a chance to build attraction properly. By presenting your first "date" as a casual meetup, you lower the pressure on the girl, and give yourself a chance to make her attracted to her when you're with her one-on-one for a decent amount of time.

These are good arguments, but I've definitely had more of my time wasted when using the "casual meetup" method, due to girls not being interested or having boyfriends.

For the past year or so, I've been making all my first "dates" a meetup at a bar for a drink. This seems to weed out girls who have boyfriends (no girl who's into her boyfriend is going to go for a one-on-one drink with a random guy), and I think is lower pressure than dinner. And it definitely doesn't pedestalize them. I also find it easier to kino in a bar/lounge, where there's less possibility we'll end up sitting across from each other, out of arm's reach (like in many coffee places). (Low-light and some booze also help my cause.)

Later,
d0g

Damn, that's a really solid idea. You don't meet a friend in a bar for drinks, but you certainly meet many friends for coffee. I'm going to do this from now on. I remember BlackDragon recommending the same in one of his books.

As far as my current situation with this girl, I'm going to reveal one more card to her by giving her a clear SOI (statement of interest) next time I see her. Perhaps she'll see me smiling and ask why I'm smiling, and I'll say "I took this cute girl out for coffee the other night and had a good time." Then it doesn't matter how I ask her out for the second date, the frame is obvious. I think before you ask a girl out for a second date, the frame must be clear, otherwise escalation is too awkward as she has no idea what to expect and you yourself are wondering what she expects. I feel like 90% of the friend zoning happens the second time a guy goes out with a girl and makes no clear move.

 

[apprenticedj]

I'm inclined to side with happyDJ here, the two of you had coffee and hung out for two hours, she has already decided whether or not she is open to the idea of banging you. At this point all you need to do is find out what she decided. Definitely go for the meetup for a drink routine. This way she'll know it's in the romantic vain as opposed to a platonic coffee after class. Plus alcohol will help you with your escalation anxiety and get her in the mood a little more. Her response to your invitation will let you know if she deemed you vagina worthy.

 

[Wakeupplease]

"Date" is such a big word. I would probably phone her and ask her to go 'out' for Saturday night (or some other night). "Date" implies potentially leading to a long term situation. Just take it much more easy and she will feel more at ease. These things shouldn't feel forced.

 

[NewJack]

Now I don't have ONEitis over this girl. I don't care if it works or not. I just want help with my sticking point, because I've got other phones numbers and dates to make with cute girls, and I want to get my technique right.

The problem is that this mindset expressed above is going to make it hard. Its less how you frame it to her, and more how you have already framed it to yourself.

You see, she will intuitively sense this mindset. You're biggest problem will probably be her 'smelling' this on you. Can you imagine going in deep with a person who thinks "I don't care if it works... I want to get my technique right"? Let's forget SoSuave for a minute and remember that we're human beings. We don't equate powerful romance and sex with nonchalance and social experimentation. You have to mean it in this game. Its better when you're heart is in it.

She still might do it, of course. I mean, go on a date. And maybe she'll have sex with you.

But this frame of yours is flakey and experimental. Women respond to this in a way thats flakey and experimental. They sense how much you care, which is not all that much. These are some hints as to why you might not be forming a powerful connection, and its the powerful connection that makes them want all the rest of the fun stuff. Just stray thoughts. Good luck.

 

[Maximus Rex]

Now here is my dilemma: was that even a date? And if I want a second date, how do I frame it?

I have a sticking point: I usually end up in the friend zone because I try to be all PUA and avoid framing things as dates, and then I miss escalation cues and two dates go by and I haven't even held the girl's hand or kissed her! Whereas, in the past when I have framed things as a date, I am more comfortable just getting romantic and heating things up and holding hands and kissing.

Rex considers any one-on-one time with a chick to be a date. For example, I'm sitting in a common area at school right now as I'm typing this. If I see a chick, holla at her, and she agrees to go with me to the nearby tequila bar, Stone Cold, Subways, or the buffet on campus, guess what? We're on a f*cking date. and ole Rex is going to do everything thing that he would normally do in a "traditional date," (i.e. setting aside a block of time in the near future to buy a chick a drink or an inexpensive meal.)

Rex suggests that you do the above and treat any one-on-one time you have with chick as date. For some reason, why you feel that you're on a date it puts you in the frame of mind to act accordingly.

So when I go to ask her out for the second date, I have two choices: say something ambiguous like

There's no need to deviate from what you're doing to secure the first date. Not to sound cliche, but like the old adage says, "If it ain't broke, then don't fix it."

"What are your plans for Saturday? I want to check out this museum and get dinner at this cool xyz restaurant. Care to join me?"

^^^^ That's what you don't want to do. You asking her to accompany you somewhere which is a slight DLV and gives her the opportunity tell you, "No." Phrase it like this:

Pkcowboy: I'm going to the museum, come with me.

F*ck dinner, y'all aren't cool like that yet. Besides, you're just on the second date and what has she done to demonstrate that she's worth more than a hero at Subways, the "Gotta Have It," size at Cold Stone, or some drinks?

Would the latter technique scare her off? Create too much pressure? Cause her to lose attraction as she thinks she's already won?

No, because if you handled your business promptly, not does she WANT to kick it with you again, she's EXPECTING you to step up the next date.

Or does it display confidence since it is clear and not wishy washy?

This^^^

Definitely go for the meetup for a drink routine. This way she'll know it's in the romantic vain as opposed to a platonic coffee after class. Plus alcohol will help you with your escalation anxiety and get her in the mood a little more. Her response to your invitation will let you know if she deemed you vagina worthy.

What apprenticedj, just said is "text book," Tom Leykis. Leykis said you don't meet women for coffee because there's no ambiguity in your intention. However, in Louis and Copeland's, How to Succeed with Women they recommend meeting at a Starbucks for a priming date. The purpose of the priming date to do a "recon," on the chick. You find out her likes and dislikes, what she considers romantic, the kind of man she likes etc. After you get that information, you put it together in what they call the seduction date." On the seduction date you try to K close or eff close. Both methods are valid and you have to find the one that works for you. Good luck.

 

[pkcowboy]

What apprenticedj, just said is "text book," Tom Leykis. Leykis said you don't meet women for coffee because there's no ambiguity in your intention. However, in Louis and Copeland's, How to Succeed with Women they recommend meeting at a Starbucks for a priming date. The purpose of the priming date to do a "recon," on the chick. You find out her likes and dislikes, what she considers romantic, the kind of man she likes etc. After you get that information, you put it together in what they call the seduction date." On the seduction date you try to K close or eff close. Both methods are valid and you have to find the one that works for you. Good luck.

The priming date thing is exactly what the last date was.

Anyway, here is what I did:

During a text conversation with her I said "I got to take this cute girl out last night for coffee and had a great time, so I'm in a good mood." This was an SOI for her to set the frame for things to come. I then asked her if she's free Saturday, but she said she's not. Bummer, but I'm inclined to believe her, as final exams are around the corner. She said she's free after next Thursday and wants to spend time with me, but the problem is, I'm out of town after next Thursday. So, my technique seems to have worked with this chick. I forgot to mention that she is Korean and she's only been in the US for a few months, so she's definitely going to be more conservative and maybe less open to getting physical too fast. Any advice how to play this?

 

[Maximus Rex]

I forgot to mention that she is Korean and she's only been in the US for a few months, so she's definitely going to be more conservative and maybe less open to getting physical too fast. Any advice how to play this?

I've not advanced enough to give details on specific races, especially specific ethnicities, however, PrettyBoyAJ and and I think Solomon have experience with Asian chicks, so you might want to holla at them. This podcast might be helpful to you also:

http://macklessonsradio.com/index/episode-7-mackin-to-asian-women

Mackin' to Asian Women