Female mate selection - how and why

gmonster2

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You're upset that the example was paint spilled to make abstract art?

yeah thats like saying if a monkey daubed some paint on canvas and unknowingly critics said it was incredible and the monkey art sold for $34,000.

... that would be stupid right? because abstract is so skillful , Oh s**t, hang on that did happen :)
 

Rollo Tomassi

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GRUBY: Just as an aside, I have a BFA as my first degree and Psych is my dual major; I've been a professional artist by trade for 17 years and I have a pretty good understanding of the world, but the type of art is irrelevant in this study. The descriptions of each guy is an archetype, not an asessment of artistic merit. That said, your response is common one for men evaluating this study.

TMPGSTX: This experiment was a variation of a mate selection study performed at USC in 2000, but ours was approached differently as you'll see.


OK I wont keep you hanging any longer. This study was done to determine comparative priorities in women with regards to male 'creative intelligence' vs. 'provisioning ability' in female mate selection. I would've titled this thread as such, but I wanted to get some unbiased and impulse responses from some DJs here to see what the perceptions of these archetypes were from men and the reactions guys expected from women to these archetypes.

You'll notice that care was taken in these archetype descriptions to balance out the physical attractiveness of each man(i.e. both artists were considered equally attractive by peers and both businessmen were 'eligible' bachelors). What was at issue wasn't their comparative physiques, but what women chose in regard to these mens characteristics. The theory being that Creative Intelligence is of a higher mating value in the short term while a better Provisioning ability is more desirable in the long term. Also added was the caveat that legitimacy of provisioning ability and the potential for future provisioning in it's absence (i.e. the down on their luck men) played a factor in this mate selection.

So what exactly is “Creative Intelligence”? Although there is no firm consensus on how to define it, we often know it when we see it. We also know a bit about it from a century of creativity research. Within humans, creative intelligence is closely associated with the highly heritable general intelligence, and creative intelligence seems to rely on the generation, selective elaboration, and skillful implementation of ideas and strategies. The problem is that creativity sounds desirable, as does intelligence, so “creative intelligence” can become a vague term that seems useful for solving any behavioral problem, whether technological, ecological, social, sexual, or cultural. Many plausible adaptive functions explain the origins of human creative intelligence. These include: tool-making and tool-using, hunting, foraging, and food preparation methods, social strategizing within and between groups and sexual courtship dynamics (i.e. DJing).

Sorry for the psych lesson, but we had to be specific.

Most women face trade-offs in mating. In selecting a long-term mate, it makes sense for women to put greater weight on traits that advertise ability and willingness to invest in protection, provisioning, and care of the woman and her offspring. This will favor the evolution of ‘good dad’ indicators – reliable cues of paternal investment ability and willingness. This is a direct correlate to the Nice Guy we all know and despise. Some women of very high mate value (HB 8 and above) may have the luxury of attracting a long-term mate who has both good dad potential and good genes. Many women have to settle for a committed partner who is not ideal either paternally or genetically. Such women have incentives to secure better genes or better paternal care from short-term or extra-pair partners. Either would help at any time. This would explain the single mother looking for the good provider prevalent in our culture today.

The idea was that women will prefer a male possessing a higher capacity for Creative Intelligence in the short term sexual encounters to ensure the best possible future options for her offspring, while choosing a mate with better Provisioning ability for long term parental investment.

Art and business were chosen as two contrasting domains of work. Each requires distinct styles of creative intelligence, but both demand combinations of practical and theoretical skills, individual effort and social interaction. Hence, merit-based success in either domain may function as a mental fitness indicator. In each domain (art or business), one vignette described a man who showed high creative intelligence in his work, but who was poor due to bad luck and adverse circumstances. The other vignette in each set described a man who was average on creative intelligence, but who was wealthy due to good luck and beneficial circumstances. All vignettes made clear that each man’s creativity level was largely endogenous, reflecting natural (and presumably heritable) talent, but that his wealth level was largely accidental, gained through no merit or fault of his own.

Each woman completed two forced-choice questions: (1) “Based on these descriptions, who do you think you might find more desirable for a short-term sexual affair?”; (2) “Based on these descriptions, who do you think you might find more desirable for a long-term committed relationship?” (L or M in the artist vignettes, and R or J in the entrepreneur vignettes). Next, participants rated the desirability of each man as a short-term mate and as a long-term mate on two 9-point scales (where ‘1’ = not at all desirable, ‘5’ = average; ‘9’ = extremely desirable). The rating questions were as follows: “Overall, how desirable would you find L [M, R, or J] as a long-term partner?” “Overall, how desirable would you find L [M, R, or J] as a short-term partner?

In this study M was overwhelmingly chosen as the short term partner. 89% of the participants chose the naturally talented, but out of luck artist for a short term sexual encounter. 7% chose L the rich artist, 3% chose J the poor/talented businessman and 1% opted for R the wealthy/untalented businessman.

J was rated highest for long term relationship, but not as significantly as M in the short term. 67% of our subjects chose J, and surprisingly 17% chose L (rich artist). R was rated at 12% and M took 4% for the long term choice.

I'll give you all my conclusions a bit latter after you have some time to respond.
 

gruby

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You are responsible for what your write and in your descriptions i don't read arechetypes of poor starving talented artist and rich untalenter artist but rather i read the questions maker's biased understanding of art. Rather then to think about the question i keep thinking that the question maker assumes that realistic art is great while abstract art is crap -- from that point on i can't answer your question honestly because i start thinking how to "screw" such such ignorant person rather then to answer his questions correctly.

On one hand that has very little to do with the question on the other hand it has a lot to do as it skews the results.
 

libre

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Well Gruby

No offense, but perhaps that some of us do have some difficulties with understanding the intricacies of the art world, however we do have a better grasp of written english than you do. Why don't you invest in or make the effort to use an english dictionary?

Come on Rollo Tomassi, out with the results.
 

TedJustAdmitIt

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Originally posted by gruby
i don't read arechetypes of poor starving talented artist and rich untalenter artist but rather i read the questions maker's biased understanding of art. Rather then to think about the question i keep thinking that the question maker assumes that realistic art is great while abstract art is crap -- from that point on i can't answer your question honestly
You've missed the point there mate:rolleyes:
 

Tao walker 2005

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Yeah I guessed those two archetypes, poor artist and out of luck business men would be the winners, because talent and ambition are two very attractive character traits in anyone, man or woman.

But this is just theoretical. Many, many women want a rich sugar daddy. The true litmus test would have to be a real-life social experiment, and I'm betting old L and R might be pretty successful in a booty competition with M/J if they started splashing that cash around.
 

Bonhomme

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Abstract

Interesting.

One caveat, though: this is an abstract study. As Tao walker implied, the way such people would be likely to come across in real life might elicit way, way different reactions in real life.

I've known more than a few known people more-or-less like these stereotypes, and have seen what they get in real life.

This study is not unlike asking a woman what traits they find attractive in a man. What they say may be quite at odds with what they actually go for.
 

AsianPlayboy

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It is, however, rather EXPENSIVE to be renting $1000 VIP tables/rooms in addition to some $500 worth of champagne every weekend. You then likely to attract some mixed selection of golddiggers as well as ONS material.

Contrast this however to someone who buys a single drink at the bar and then PASSIONATELY speaks about some sort of creativity whether it's art, magic, etc. etc. etc.

You can spend a sh.it load of money or talk a good game by conveying how creative, imaginative, and sensual a person you are.
 

al77

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Rollo,

There were only two guys who guessitmate it right
Ted,JustAdmitIt and me:

Ted,JustAdmitIt:
----
I'm gonna say M for both short and long term.
If it has to be two different I'll say M for short term and J for long term.
---
Note that you said it doesnt really have to be different, so then he guessed M for both?!...


al77:
----
M is perfect for a short term, and J is good for LTR.
----

Note that I not only predicted types correctly but also gave you the extent of how good this prediction is: "M is perfect" (you said 89%) and is just "good" (67%).
Boy, I should have bet some money in this little game :D

My logic was simple: women dont like loosers: and there were two "winners" basically: M and J. Sure since M is poor he is perfect only for a short somehting, J seems good, but since he lost money women would downgrade him from "perfect" to just "good".
 

LuvMyArmyMan

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Hm. I would have chosen J for the long-term. and also, any one of those guys for a fling. A fling is a fling, IMO. But the only one that would have progressed would be J.

And about the whole art thing, **** happens and people call it art. Its the theory behind it. The real question, gruby, would be, what is art? . Art is what people see. So what if it is caused by accident? The fact that someone produced it, and someone saw it and bought it and called it art makes it art. Do you think that Jackson Pollack thought about where to dribble his paintbrush of art? and HOW, exactly, did the Ab Ex movement get started? Or, rather, any art movement get started? By accident. Manet painted "Luncheon on the Grass" and it caused a sensation among those who viewed it because of its atrocious content. It caused outrage. It also spurrned the Modernist movement. What about Duchamp? And his work titled "Fountain"? Is that art? For those who aren't art-savvy, "Fountain" was a piece of sculpture that was just a urinal tunred on it's back and Duchamp called it "Fountain". And Picasso started the cubist movement by experimenting.

So, if you want to tell me that art can't be art if it's made by accident, you're quite wrong, gruby.

BTW, original poster, GOOD POST
 

Mortukai

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Erm, Rollo, how were you accounting for the seemingly high potential for response bias?

For those who haven't studied Psych, response bias is where subjects bias their responses to fit their perceptions of what the researcher would approve of. The simple fact that another person would be looking at their answers, no matter how anonymous they are (unconsciously people cannot comprehend anonymity), would cause the subjects to bias their responses towards what is socially/contextually acceptable/desireable.

Looking at those questions Rollo, it seems clear that no matter how you introduced the study, all the participants would at least unconsciously realise that you are testing aspects of their mate choice, and whilst they may not be conscious of it, they would certainly exhibit a strong response bias because mate choice is a very powerful and almost universally contextually salient aspect of the human condition.

Furthermore, if the researcher was a male, presenting those questions, then that would have had a strong effect on response bias, and if your researcher was a female, I submit that the effect would be even stronger, by virtue of the innate and intense competition between females.

From the incredibly overwhelming skews in your results, I'd be strongly inclined to consider a powerful response bias. The results do not show anything close to normal individual variation one would expect about such things as mate choice.
 

whistler

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Originally posted by Mortukai
Erm, Rollo, how were you accounting for the seemingly high potential for response bias?

For those who haven't studied Psych, response bias is where subjects bias their responses to fit their perceptions of what the researcher would approve of. The simple fact that another person would be looking at their answers, no matter how anonymous they are (unconsciously people cannot comprehend anonymity), would cause the subjects to bias their responses towards what is socially/contextually acceptable/desireable.

Looking at those questions Rollo, it seems clear that no matter how you introduced the study, all the participants would at least unconsciously realise that you are testing aspects of their mate choice, and whilst they may not be conscious of it, they would certainly exhibit a strong response bias because mate choice is a very powerful and almost universally contextually salient aspect of the human condition.

Furthermore, if the researcher was a male, presenting those questions, then that would have had a strong effect on response bias, and if your researcher was a female, I submit that the effect would be even stronger, by virtue of the innate and intense competition between females.

From the incredibly overwhelming skews in your results, I'd be strongly inclined to consider a powerful response bias. The results do not show anything close to normal individual variation one would expect about such things as mate choice.
Actually, the extreme degree to which M and J stood out in the study suggests that the preference for those two reflected something beyond just a response bias (which is probably small given the complexity of the task and the anonymity of the data).

Sorry... just blathering.
 

Rollo Tomassi

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There are a lot of details I left out of this study when I posted it in order to hold readability in this forum. I hardly think going into the minutiae of the process would help anyone understand.

But, yes, I do understand what you are saying. In any psychology experiment there is a potential for bias, either from the experimentor or the subjects and we addressed this. All the women taking the test were isolated in cubicles and the test was administered on computers in a lab. No one asked them the evaluation questions personally and no subject was allowed to interact with another. We tried to compensate for racial preferences as well, but 40% of the women were caucasian and all were of a socio-economic and education level sufficient to be enrolled in a major university. So, reasonably, you can argue that the test is skewed in favor of women in these demographics. And I should also point out that the test doesn't conclusively prove any theory as even the best results are still based on correlative evidence.

That said though, the idea we were exploring was that female humans evolved to favor the best of both worlds – good genes and good dads. Perhaps this makes women seem fickle to their male partners who are not themselves the best of both. What is most adaptive for women may often be most frustrating – or mostly invisible – to men. Women’s bodies and brains follow an adaptive rhythm largely hidden from men, a rhythm that tunes them cyclically (i.e. ovulation) to the perils of starvation and mutation, and the intuitive genetics of information-flows through generations. In mate choice as in everything important, women know that a foolish consistency is the bane of little minds.

I thought I'd share this experiment with the men (and women) here since it helps to untangle a lot of what is discussed here on a daily basis. There are no shortages of Nice Guy vs. Jerks threads and "why did my girl cheat on me" posts here. I'm constantly asked by young men why women will make 'friends' of them yet go off to fvck the Jerk boyfriend 10 minutes after she gets off the phone with him. I recently got into a thread on the Mature Man's board in regards to 'Girls Night Out' and why women feel a need to go out and flirt at clubs our live vicariously through their girlfriends. The biological/evolutionary dynamics and reasons for a woman's desire to engage in short term sexual encounters is a good place to begin sorting this out.
 

libre

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I agree. It is interesting to read about a scientific aproach to realtions instead of the common rants againts women. Rants againts both sexes are tedious. Though is does feel good sometimes to vent.
 

Alpine

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Alpines prediction is:-

Short term the guy who won the cash.

Long term the business man who lost it all but will have it all again.
 

Mortukai

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Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with the results at all, I was just wondering how you'd delt with the huge potential for response bias in such a sample and in such a context as mate choice.

Have you read Sperm Wars by Robin Baker? It's a great read. Personally, I love evolutionary psychology/biology, so this book, and The Mating Mind both really put things into perspective.

But anyway, Sperm Wars also implies that women seek two men: a provider for her children, and a man with great genes to father her children. Rarely, both are one and the same man. But both most often have very different qualities, which are often partitioned into the "nice-guy/jerk" dichotomy. The attractive qualities of the jerk indicate great genes, while the attractive qualities of the nice guy indicate good provider potential. Thus if a woman can't find a man with great genes who is also a great provider, then her second best bet is to find the best provider she can attract and mate with a few other men who have good genes, getting her partner to provide for children that are not his.

Anyway, I totally agree with your conclusion that women evolved to seek good genes and good dads, and the best mix of both, whatever that mix may be. I just don't think that your study was the best way to go about it. As has been pointed out by others, these women were responding almost entirely out of logical thinking, a situation made worse by the setup of the experiment (alone in front of a computer looking at text), yet we all know that women think with their feelings. In other words, the experiment was relying on women to have insight into their biologically predetermined mate choices. You partially made up for this by making "all things being equal" besides the manipulated variables, so they were forced to rely more on intuitive reactions than any analysis, but in the end all you ended up with was some correlations, which at best, could only add support to more comprehensive and in-depth studies done previously into the underlying causal mechanisms.

What field of psych was this for btw? It sounds like a social psych experiment.
 

Kaine

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I'd like to know how does been a jerk correlate to having good genes?

Is this not a pattern of behaviour and hence psychological, therefore not purely genetic?


Kaine
 

dietzcoi

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Sorry, Rollo, but I do not buy it.

THere is definitely research bias here.

In truth, on the ground, many, many women would jump at the inherited millionaire.

Sorry but they all have some level of golddigger in them.

Don't you see all the rich older men with young wives? That is purely golddigging and nothing else.

Not saying this applies to 100% but a much larger percent than in your study.

Much larger

Dietzcoi
 

Rollo Tomassi

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Again as I said "all things being equal", but as we know this is rarely ever the case. A university psychology experiment is hardly the setting for a definitive study under the best of circumstances, but I will agree with you on the larger issue, women (and men) are natural opportunists. We all subconsciously want the best return for our investment potential. In the case of women there is often a conflict good genes vs. good fathers. Our study in no way takes into account the individual conditions of each participant. Considering that 66% of the American public is over weight, a woman's physical condition (a man's primary means for sexual evaluation) may influence her decision in mate selection. In other words, due to their individual circumstance, some women may have perceived any one of these male archetypes as being "out of her league" and opted for a more logical choice while considering their own sexual value. These are called Establishing Operations in behavioral psychology and everyone has them as influencing, and often confounding, variables. For men, sexual deprivation is a constant Establishing Operation that influences sexual behavior. For women it can be anything from physical condition to ovulation phases. In fact there have been variations of this experiment where women were presented with the exact same test, but were also asked to divulge when their last period was. I could post the results for this, but in short, M scored even higher in short term preference and scored higher for long term, though not as significantly for women in their peak phase of ovulation.

Heheh,..Think of the benefits to men's sexual and courtship performance (i.e. DJing) if he could accurately determine which phase of a woman's ovulation cycle she was currently in? You'd waste far less time with women in a mensturation phase than a woman in her folicular stage, though I'd suppose you'd have to use discretion in birth control.

I do think that experiments like this, while not particularly conclusive, shed a lot of light on many discussions here. Not to go all Pook on you, but he does explain a lot of these dynamics this in his prose. Women would naturally be looking for a mate that exemplified both good genes and good provisioning ability in the same individual. Pook defined this as the 'good guy' combining the characteristics that make a Jerk attractive to women (particularly in their peak ovulation phase I might add) and the provisioning ability and dependability displayed by the Nice Guy.

This feminine opportunism is also found in single mothers and their own Establishing Operations. After bearing the child(ren) of the 'Big Jerk' she got involved with (good genes) her most obvious recourse is to look for a mate with better provisioning ability in order to ensure the livelyhood of her good gene offspring and share her parental investment. Yet another reason I've always advocated staying away from single mommies. A woman who can find a male to share the parental investment of another man's offsprings has attained the best bargain in the natural world.

Also the legitimacy of a male's provisioning ability may be of less importance when considering a woman's Establishing Operations. For example, it may be of less concern for a single mother's long term security whether the man she selects won the lottery rather than being a self made enteprenuer so long as her parental investment is provided for.

KAINE: Good question. It could be argued that the 'Jerk' displays behaviors and possess characteristics that are innately recognized as having good genes, but it really depends on the definition of the term 'Jerk'. More aggressive, more confident, obvious charateristics that would make him more competition worthy for female attention, these could be a few of the traits that are natural attractants, but it's certainly not limited to these. Obvious Alpha-Male traits could be correlated with this, but that isn't to say that feminine good gene perception is only defined by testosterone produced evidence for good breeding stock.

And again biological and social conditions can have an affect on good gene preception. The costs and risks of short-term and extra-pair mating extend throughout an ovulation cycle, but the good genes benefits can be obtained only during the high fertility phase just before ovulation, women in the high-fertility phase seeking short-term mates should value good genes indicators more highly, relative to good dad indicators. This is not to say that ovulating women will show an absolute preference for all good genes indicators over all good dad indicators, only that good genes indicators should become relatively more attractive and more often favored as fertility increases. This may be manifest as a shift from seeing a male trait as marginally distasteful to seeing it as mildly intriguing (as may be the case with male pheromones or aggressive dominance as fitness indicators), or from seeing it as moderately attractive to seeing it as very arousing (as may be the case with male musical or athletic virtuosity). Heheh, I suppose that could explain why rockstars seem to bang the most desirable women.

MORTUKAI: Yes, I'm aware of Sperm Wars and I've read The Selfish Gene as well. Most of my specialization is in personality psychology and behaviorism and you can't help but cross over into social dynamics with these fields, but I add a good helping of Evolutionary Psychology to my focus too.
 

iveyleeger

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Rollo,

Was M always presented first? Was J always before R?

One could argue that the first profile is most memorable, and establishes the archetype against which others are measured. M is most likeable b/c he is the first one they met, J is next best b/c he is most like M. But if you randomized the order then that bias is gone.
 
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