Fahrenheit 9/11

[oElS]

Moore does not try at all to portray Bush as an idiot. All he does is point a camera at the man and let Bush tell his own story.

ARE U FVCKING JOKING?!?!?!?! you are so ignorant its funny... what do you think hes trying to do, capture all of Bush's highlights?

 

[boost]

Boost, I understand how you feel about gun control. The real problem is that there are a lot of guns out there in civilian hands that are designed for one and only one thing - to murder people.

The original point of ALL guns is to kill things. Make no mistake about it.

Handguns that are easy to carry and have a small clip are sufficient for protecting yourself, and there's nothing wrong with having shotguns and rifles for hunting/target shooting.

There is nothing wrong with having ANY gun for hunting, target shooting, or self defense.

Gun collecting is also cool (From what I've heard, many of the laws that restrict gun purchasing have exceptions for licenced collectors).

There is no "collectors license" as far as I know. The only specially privledged people are LEOs.

However, any automatic weapon or armor-piercing ammunition has no place in civilian hands.

Automatic weapons have been heavily regulated since 1934, and production of new automatic weapons for civilian purchase has been banned since 1986. If you are a civilian today, and want an automatic weapon, you must: 1) live in a state that allows it. 2) Possess a class III firearms license, which is very difficult to get (requires the approval of your local chief LEO, and basically eliminates your privacy rights in a number of ways. It requires a backround check even more exhaustive than the one used for other firearms) 3) pay an extra $200 "tax stamp" on any class III transfer, in addition to the tremendous premium price that is now placed on civilian transferable pre-86 fully automatic weapons. M16A2's now go for 20K+, MP5's for 13K+, AC556's for 7500+... the cheapest class III's on the market are MAC 10 type POS machine pistols... in the $3000 range.

The 1994 "assault weapons ban" has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with automatic weapons. It bans some cosmetic features on certain semi-auto weapons. Thats it.

As far as armor piercing ammo, it doesn't really do much that "normal" ammo doesn't do. AP pistol ammo is already banned. AP rifle ammo is legal.

I think that people should be able to use these to their hearts content for target shooting by renting them at gun ranges, but that aside from that only police and military should have that kind of firepower.

Police are civilians and should be subjected to the same rules as all the other civilians. They are not a privlidged class. They need firearms for the exact same reasons as the rest of us.

Isn't it kind of frightening that any US civilian with a reasonably clean record can legally become better armed than the police?

A US civilian cannot become better armed than the police.

 

[PuertoRican_Lover]

Many of you young boys are so corrupt that truth will never seep through your brains - you are of the same ilk that believe that two men stroking each other's ass*s is good and normal! There is no hope for you and are a waste of sperm!

 

[diplomatic_lies]

Facts can be manipulated.

The first is only to present facts that support your argument. For example, you use one example of a Jewish guy beating up an Aryan to claim that this happens all the time.

You can also use distorted statistics. For example, you claim "50% of the world is fat", when in reality it is only 50% of American civilians who are fat (you just dont mention the last bit).

Or you use questions - "Bush talks like a dumbass, doesn't that tell you something about his intelligence?". Speech doesn't necessarily imply intelligence (ask Clinton), but you imply that it does.


Don't take "fact" for granted. I can find facts for any claim, no matter how stupid.

 

[Shiftkey]

Gun control is one issue that I agree with the Republicans.

However, any automatic weapon or armor-piercing ammunition has no place in civilian hands.

The point of the 2nd Amendment is a final, last resort check and balance on the government. With gun control that prevents citizens from owning and using guns that meet military standard, this amendment is effectively non existant. I can't stress enough how important our bill of rights is, and why it shouldn't be trampled on. Without it, we are not the USA.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moore does not try at all to portray Bush as an idiot. All he does is point a camera at the man and let Bush tell his own story.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ARE U FVCKING JOKING?!?!?!?! you are so ignorant its funny... what do you think hes trying to do, capture all of Bush's highlights?

Bush proves his idiocy on his own; all you have to do is watch Bush's speeches. Moore doesn't really have to do a thing. What has Bush done that seems the least bit intelligent? What highlights are there? lol

 

[Eternal]

Alright guys, can we keep this on Fahrenheit 9/11 and not stray off to gun control anymore?

 

[Derek Flint]

"Moore" lies and propaganda from the master himself.



http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5335853/site/newsweek/

http://fahrenheit_fact.blogspot.com/

http://msnvideo.msn.com/video/defau...7b111-f3b6-42b8-aa2d-033f4ed345f5&autoStart=0

 

[Derek Flint]

Originally posted by Dust 2 Dust
I admit that Moore often gives half-truths in his films but I agree with the underlying themes of his films.

The average college graduate walking down the street could probably be as good if not a better president than Bush.

Based on what? The indocrination they get from some Marxist college professor?

The war in Iraq was unnecessary.
I guess Iraqi's we're better off with Hussien in power.
And I guess we were better off with:

Saddam attempting to assassinate Bush 41.
Publicly funding the families of suicide bombers.
He and his intel officials having numerous meetings with Al Quaeda officials.
Al Quaeda operatives were training at several sites in Iraq.
Saddam supplied them a 727 fuselage to practice high-jacking on.
Saddam harbored and gave safe haven to a number of terrorists.
Saddam used WMD's on the Kurds, killing thousands of them.
Saddam killed about 250,000 dissenters, who were found in mass graves.

The pro-war drones were fed lies by the media and CIA then the media denounced the pacifists as unpatriotic (same thing the nazi's did.)
The anti-war pacifists lemmings were fed lies by the likes of Michael Moore without bothering to question the facts.
I liked the part where he was asking the millionaires in congress to send their kids into the army. Moore has a point here.
Moore left out the part about the Congressman who has a nephew serving in combat in Afghanistan, because it devalues the point he attempted to make.


Anyone who has studied Karl Marx knows that it's the Bourgeoisie that fights the wars with proletariat blood.
Anyone who has studied Marx and understood Marx knows who oppressive Marxism is and how it is a demonstrable failure.
And anyone who studied US history, knows that's BS

i agree with his stance on Gun control. Get rid of all the assault rifles and handguns which serve no purpose in our society other than to kill our neighbor.

Handguns prevent about 2 Million crimes from occuring per year.
What would you do if some thugs entered your home, and tried to harm you or your family? Rape your wife/daughter/mother/girlfriend?
Call Michael Moore and ask him what you should do?

 

[Shiftkey]

Derek Flint,

"Moore" lies and propaganda from the master himself.

Propaganda, sure. But this really isn't a negetive word. Even the pledge of allegiance is propaganda. Moore doesn't deny that he wants Bush out of office. But what lies? As was already pointed out, lies in F9/11 is a lawsuit waiting to happen. You better believe he wouldn't knowlying lie in that movie.

The anti-war pacifists lemmings were fed lies by the likes of Michael Moore without bothering to question the facts.

What lies? What facts?

Moore left out the part about the Congressman who has a nephew serving in combat in Afghanistan, because it devalues the point he attempted to make.

Actually he didn't leave this out. He says in the movie that one congressman has a relative in the ME. You obviously haven't seen the movie - or if you have you must have the comprehension of a kindergartener.

 

[Shiftkey]

boost,

I'll probably see F9/11 at some point. But he's not going to get a dime from me for it.

Sneak in after watching Spiderman or something then

You of all people really should see this movie (no insult implied). I'd like to hear your opinions on it once you watch it.

What 'tricks and tactics' Bush is using escapes me. His actions are a matter of public record.

This is addressed in the movie also. For example, the use of public fear through the colored terror alerts. Maybe you're not affected by these, but many of the stupid masses are, and this is shown in his movie.

 

[PuertoRican_Lover]

The USA media is the most "controlled" in the world that is why Americans are the least informed citizens in the world!! The US government/CIA/Pentagon/Jews/right wing fascist christians have always controlled the 'press'!! Many of you young boys are ignorant of reality and hate truth!! Poor devils!!

Oh yeah, the hors and homos are "allowed" to spill forth their corruption to keep you ignorant and corrupted!!

 

[boost]

The point of the 2nd Amendment is a final, last resort check and balance on the government. With gun control that prevents citizens from owning and using guns that meet military standard, this amendment is effectively non existant. I can't stress enough how important our bill of rights is, and why it shouldn't be trampled on. Without it, we are not the USA.

This is 100% correct. The second amendment doesn't have anything to do with duck hunting. It was created as a doomsday provision last resort against an oppressive, out of control government. "Military style" weapons are EXACTLY the ones the founding fathers were protecting when they penned the bill of rights. The 2nd puts teeth into the others. Without the 2nd amendment, the others mean nothing.

Better be careful Shiftkey, once you start truly believeing in the second amendment, other conservative ideologies aren't to far behind.

You of all people really should see this movie (no insult implied). I'd like to hear your opinions on it once you watch it.

This is addressed in the movie also. For example, the use of public fear through the colored terror alerts. Maybe you're not affected by these, but many of the stupid masses are, and this is shown in his movie.

You are right; the stoplight-like "terror alert" system caused me to chuckle when they announced it. I've got all the homeland security "terrorist repelant" I need in long, skinny cases in my closet.

If/when I ever see F9/11 I will post my honest thoughts on it here.

 

[Serg897]

Originally posted by boost
One of many websites dedicated to exposing BFC BS:

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com

I hope you've got all afternoon, cause you are gonna be reading for a LONG time.

I think its this site that REALLY has the half-truths and exagerations here

Its funny how many conservatives resort to attacking Micheal Moore personally rather than actually disputing the facts in his films and books. How many of you saying Fahrenheit 9/11 is bull**** have actually seen the movie yet?

This one is different than Bowling. None of you have even touched on the points Fahrenheit 9/11 makes.

The first part of the film concentrates on exposing the link between the Bin Ladens, the Saudis, and the Bush family, which I guarantee many people dont know about. If Moore is actually lying about this, and many other things the conservatives claim he is lying about, then Im sure the guy would be in jail. What do you make of how members of the Bin Laden family were flown out of here right after Sept 11th without any interrogation on Osamas whereabouts? How is that for the Bush "tough terrorism policy"?

Bush was after Iraq and Saddam Hussein ever since Day 1, and he has convinced the American people that Iraq had links to Al-Qaida, and had WMD's.

Our "coalition of the willing" included the smallest and most insignificant countries, who were just looking to reap the benefits of siding with the United States. The truth is, most of the planet was against Bushes agenda. The bigger players had their own coalition of the UNwilling.

The next major point of the movie is how the troops being sent over in Iraq are dying for nothing. I agree that he does uses a lot of emotion in this part ( with the sad mother and her dead son in Iraq ), but the message is relevant nonetheless. The troops are over in Iraq despite.
1. No WMD's
2. No links to Al-Qaida or terrorists
He also touches on how its mainly the poorer people, like from his Flint Michigan hometown, that are forced to enlist simply becuase they do not have any other option. The part where he tries to get different Congressmen to enlist their children in the military is priceless.

I suggest to everyone bashing this movie that they see it first, so they you can actually talk about what is presented in the movie, instead of just attacking Micheal Moore himself

 

[Komodo]

I hated bowling for columbine just beacause I like guns but I agree with dust 2 dust on some points.

 

[boost]

Originally posted by Serg897
I think its this site that REALLY has the half-truths and exagerations here

Well my man, why don't you go out, buy yourself a gun, and find out through PERSONAL EXPERIENCE who is lieing and who is not.

Who knows, you might even enjoy it.

EDIT: Oops, you're 16. Do the above in a couple years. In the mean time, if you're so inclined, you can research the actual laws for yourself and see where MM broke them (or staged, or "creatively edited" out the important parts in BFC).

 

[Cleatus VanDamme]

Originally posted by oElS
ARE U FVCKING JOKING?!?!?!?! you are so ignorant its funny... what do you think hes trying to do, capture all of Bush's highlights?

Watching that stammering, stoopid dry-drunk fake born-again pResident makes me embarrassed to be an American. By his own admission he was a drunk and accomplished nothing until he was "saved" at age 40. That's 40 years old people! Remember Bush is the one acting like a dumbass in the news clips - he was not taking direction from Moore. The ultimate: Moore airs the 3 minutes that proceeded announcement of the war in Iraq. In those 3 minutes on camera Bush was making silly stupid faces at people, pumping his arms while saying "feel good", all the time while a hairdresser fussily coiffed his hair. That was not aired in the US, since the "liberal media" buries anything embarrassing of Dear Leader.

 

[boost]

The first part of the film concentrates on exposing the link between the Bin Ladens, the Saudis, and the Bush family, which I guarantee many people dont know about. If Moore is actually lying about this, and many other things the conservatives claim he is lying about, then Im sure the guy would be in jail.

This may come as a shocker, but the Bush family was in the oil business. There is lots of oil in the middle east, so 'some ties to people in the middle east' are absolutely unavoidable for the Bush family. Big deal. I buy gas for my car. I suppose that gives me 'business ties with people in the middle east'. If it were legal to put Michael in jail for lieing, that could have been done long before this movie ever came out.

What do you make of how members of the Bin Laden family were flown out of here right after Sept 11th without any interrogation on Osamas whereabouts? How is that for the Bush "tough terrorism policy"?

They WERE interrogated, and it was determined that they didn't have anything to do with the attacks. Just because OBL commits acts of terror doesn't mean that his hundreds of brothers/sisters/cousins/uncles etc had anything to do with it. OBL was basically disowned by his family long ago. I'm sure you, like everyone else, have family members you haven't seen in YEARS. If one of them commits a crime, is it right for the cops to detain you forever, thinking you had something to do with it? No. It is not.

Bush was after Iraq and Saddam Hussein ever since Day 1, and he has convinced the American people that Iraq had links to Al-Qaida, and had WMD's.

Yes, he certainly was... ever since 1998. Al-Qaida links are questionable, but thats one of the sideline reasons we went in there. Saddam was demonstrably in material violation of post gulf-war one UN resolution 1441, both before and after the invasion. Thats all the legal reason we needed. In 1998, Kerry was all about invading Iraq, but has somehow changed his mind. Weather the benefits will outweigh the costs of the Iraq invasion, is still to be seen. But there is no question whatsoever about the "legal basis" for the invasion.

The bigger players had their own coalition of the UNwilling.

The "bigger players" (or bigger bench warmers, as the case may be) also did lots of business with Saddam. Your "monetary motivation" theories go in all directions.

The part where he tries to get different Congressmen to enlist their children in the military is priceless.

Nobody can enlist anybody else in the military. This includes Congressmen and their children.

 

[Hot Ice]

Originally posted by Shiftkey
Bush proves his idiocy on his own; all you have to do is watch Bush's speeches. Moore doesn't really have to do a thing. What has Bush done that seems the least bit intelligent? What highlights are there? lol

I agree.
I think Moore has just selected the best parts to the movie.
Those speeches of Bush sound like it was from a comedy show. Sad they aren't.

I really hope that someone with more intelligence gets elected for next time.
Someone like Bill Clinton without any sex scandals...

Who would take the ol' Clinton back shout YAY!



(Don't take my post too seriously. thanks.)

 

[Serg897]

Originally posted by boost
This may come as a shocker, but the Bush family was in the oil business. There is lots of oil in the middle east, so 'some ties to people in the middle east' are absolutely unavoidable for the Bush family. Big deal. I buy gas for my car. I suppose that gives me 'business ties with people in the middle east'. If it were legal to put Michael in jail for lieing, that could have been done long before this movie ever came out.

hmm, so its alright to deal with these terrorists if money is to be made, right? Even though Saudi Arabia commits some of the worst human rights violations on the globe, they are our pals, we would never invade THEM, right?

They WERE interrogated, and it was determined that they didn't have anything to do with the attacks. Just because OBL commits acts of terror doesn't mean that his hundreds of brothers/sisters/cousins/uncles etc had anything to do with it. OBL was basically disowned by his family long ago. I'm sure you, like everyone else, have family members you haven't seen in YEARS. If one of them commits a crime, is it right for the cops to detain you forever, thinking you had something to do with it? No. It is not.

according to what I have heard, and according to the movie, they werent interrogated. Is it wrong to inconvenience the members of the Bin Laden family for a little while in the hopes of gaining some info about OBL? I think not. They shouldnt have been detained forever, just questioned.

Yes, he certainly was... ever since 1998. Al-Qaida links are questionable, but thats one of the sideline reasons we went in there. Saddam was demonstrably in material violation of post gulf-war one UN resolution 1441, both before and after the invasion. Thats all the legal reason we needed. In 1998, Kerry was all about invading Iraq, but has somehow changed his mind. Weather the benefits will outweigh the costs of the Iraq invasion, is still to be seen. But there is no question whatsoever about the "legal basis" for the invasion.

are you sure? We defied the UN ourselves by attacking a sovereign nation without its approval. Seems kinda hypocritical to defy the UN in order to enforce its laws, dont you think? The UN itself, and most of the other countries on this planet that werent bribed or forced to take our side, were against this war. The UN resolution was for Iraq to disarm, yet no weapons have been found proving that Saddam was "demonstrably in material violation".

There is also no question that Bush DID play the Sept 11th card in this war. So many people in this country believe that Iraq had everything to do with Sept 11th, as a result of Bush's misinformation.

The "bigger players" also did lots of business with Saddam. Your "monetary motivation" theories go in all directions.

hehe, and when this argument is brought up, it almost always centers around the French. We have accused them of all kinds of treachery when it comes to Iraq. But its really the Americans who were involved more with Iraq before the invasion. The rest of the European countries, including France, took a small percentage of oil exports compared to what the U.S. took.

Nobody can enlist anybody else in the military. This includes Congressmen and their children.

He was trying to get Congressmen to talk to their children about enlisting, and "helping out". If so many of them are eager to send our young men and women overseas, why not their own children?

You've already noticed that Im still a teenager (17 now). I would never enlist in the military to get sent to Iraq in this useless occupation and be constantly in danger from insurgents.

 

[Dirtheart]

I see that a lot of people dislike Michael Moore, for whatever reason, but if that's the case please read some of George Orwell's writing.

I especially suggest reading his essay, "Politics and the English Language", which can be found here: http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm

This is one of the most eye opening and influential pieces of text I've read in my life. It's a bit heavy and looks like it's focusing on literature and language, but once you get the point of what he is saying, you'll never look at politics the same way again.

Also, I'd highly suggest reading Animal Farm and 1984 if you haven't already. The similarities between them and what is happening today is frightening.

Incidentally, a lot of people arguing in favour of guns and constitutional rights need to look at the "Patriot Act" and how it was passed. It's one of the scariest things I've heard of in modern politics. Not only does it violate your rights, but it was passed under very devious circumstances.

Gotta love the name though! Even though "Big Brother Act" might be more appropriate.