Dropped Plate over a Tipping issue

[ketostix]

You try talking to these guys and advice them where they're off course, but damn, they will fight you tooth and nail to defend their nice guy syndrome, labeling any other way as being a jerk, and alleging that this is who they are, this is the way to be and they can't help but be what they are.

And I mention all this because how far different is that then when a guy thinks he's a DJ but he's still off course and defending his disingenuous ways to the death, ridiculing anything else but?

I don't see any difference either. If someone goes about it the wrong way it doesn't matter if they label their way "DJ" and another way "AFC". It's the same principle as a nice guy labeling the other's way "Jerk". Wrong is wrong and it's just labels and semantics.

 

[jophil28]

Ironic you should say that. You did it your way and still laugh at other people's advice, and I guess you count a blow out and a dropped plate as success. You're just not open to listening to what several of us posters said. I guess a person is never wrong as long as they don't believe they're wrong.

Yes, we have a few of that kind on this forum.

The only measure of the validity of a man's strategy in the dating game is RESULTS. His perception is NOT reality UNLESS it aligns with the ultimate outcome.

However ,a skewed perception ( belief system) WILL ultimately create outcomes which are consistent with those beliefs because our behavior produces results which are shaped and derived from our beliefs.

"AS a man thinketh so he shall become".

IF you believe that there are no Quality women and you buy into the nonsense that it is a myth, then you WILL inevitably meet women who have no QUALITY because they are fulfilling your beliefs.

 

[The Bat]

What's wrong with kindly smiling and saying "sure, I occasionally have other dates" minus the jacka** "don't worry about it" comment? No reason to lie, no reason to evade, and no reason to get defensive. State the truth confidently and clearly because the truth is the best answer - yes, you're dating which will read to her "you have competition and I'm wanted by other women".

Good job. Just work on that pseudo defensive response about dating other women.

Well, I have said that to other women in the past. Yes, it worked because it generated a competition anxiety out of them. But when they wanted exclusivity, I had to tell them that I can't be exclusive with them because I am dating other women and I want to see if there is something there with those women.

Obviously, this doesn't work well with them when they want you for themselves. They wouldn't like my answer and end things.

And when I did become "exclusive" with them, they would continuously spy on me to see if I'm still seeing other women. Of course, I was still spinning plates and eventually they would be discovered by the "exclusive" plate.

So, I figured I should just stop telling them I see other women. And if they ever wanted exclusivity, I can keep stalling them with a response similar to what GURU stated earlier, "I want to see if there is something there so let's just wait awhile. If it happens, it will happen."

That is actually working with 2 of my other plates right now who asked for exclusivity couple of weeks ago. Now these 2 know that I don't see other women and have no clue that I'm seeing other women. Although they have to suspect that I must be seeing other women because of my wide social circle and my stalling on their exclusivity offer. It's just a matter of time before these 2 plates get tired of my exclusivity and decide to leave.

I should make clear of my goals with spinning plates here. I have never been in an exclusive relationship in my life. One reason is that in the beginning, I was a mega chump and couldn't figure out how to get women. Then I figured out how to get women and wanted to become exclusive yet I kept ruining that part by being needy and desperate as things went along.

Now, I want to continue getting women with no intention of getting in an exclusive relationship with any one woman. Ever since I've figured out how to attract women, I have had no problem attracting women whenever I pleased. Call it a drug/addiction/whatever, but the thrill of the chase is adventurous and very fun. I could never see myself out of the game or out of the loop.

I figured there has to be some guys on here who know how to keep spinning plates for a long period of time. But I'm starting to realize that plates won't spin forever. Sooner or later, either they will lose interest in you and drop you or ask you for exclusivity, which you may or may not be able to provide, but as soon as you're discovered being "not exclusive" then they drop you. There is really no way around it.

No skin off my back though. Even if all 5 of my plates dropped today, I could go out and spin 2 or 3 more easily in couple of weeks.

 

[Jeffst1980]

I figured there has to be some guys on here who know how to keep spinning plates for a long period of time. But I'm starting to realize that plates won't spin forever. Sooner or later, either they will lose interest in you and drop you or ask you for exclusivity, which you may or may not be able to provide, but as soon as you're discovered being "not exclusive" then they drop you. There is really no way around it.

No skin off my back though. Even if all 5 of my plates dropped today, I could go out and spin 2 or 3 more easily in couple of weeks.

Exactly. It's just the nature of things, and you have to accept that. However, when you think about it, you're still getting a pretty sweet deal--sex without commitment. As long as you are upfront about things and aren't doing this just to glorify your ego, I'd say you're doing a-ok.

One of the nice things about dating multiple girls is that if you meet one that you WANT a relationship with, it's a pretty easy transition because you have enough options to prevent you from resorting to AFC behavior. Just realize that there is a window of time for this, so know what your goals are.

 

[guru1000]

You are under no obligation to fully disclose any material details until exclusivity or marriage. There are no contracts in casual dating.

The notion to say to every girl you are dating “O btw, I just want to clarify not exclusive means I am seeing other women” is a ridiculous suggestion.

If one were to make the argument that semi-disclosure is dishonest than you should disclose material facts on your first date as well. This does not happen because quite frankly she has not earned such disclosure. An intimate material detail is a gift, not an obligation.

A simple "We are not exclusive, let's see if we are compatible first" will suffice. Casual dating is just that, casual. Return phone calls, explanations or details are NOT requirements.

After 60 days of dating, most women will fall for a DJ. It is not your responsibility to babysit their mental health. Just as I believe in personal accountability and responsibility, I expect the same from women who put themselves there.

Just as the man who complains about low quality women and points fingers. This same man who lacks accountability needs to take a good hard look at himself and UNDERSTAND he is the one who ALLOWS low quality into his life.

If a woman accepts the term "Non-Exclusive", your "Moral" duty is done. What she concocts after the fact is her responsibility, not yours.

 

[FireOnTheMountain]

I don't think the real point of the thread is about whether you should tip a lot or a litle or at all. It's about whether the girl's reaction was appropriate, which it certainly wasn't.

 

[samspade]

After all of this, we have established:

1. It's his prerogative to withhold personal info if he is not in an exclusive relationship, as he is willing to accept whatever reasonable consequences if she finds out;

2. It's his prerogative to tip as much or as little as he pleases, since he paid the bill.

So, to answer the OP's question:

So what do you think, men? Did she really flip out because of the tip or the fact that she ran into me and a different girl (which happened about a month ago)?

...the consensus here is that it was probably more a result of #1 than #2.

People are arguing whether or not he should have been more or less honest if he actually didn't want to drop the plate. That is up to him. But I think we've established which factor was the likelier cause of her exit, which was his question in the first place.

 

[ElChoclo]

As an ignorant foreigner could I just ask whether you ever tip by credit card. Over here we get a bill with an extra line for a tip if we want to give it. It goes on the card like the rest of the bill.

We have no way of knowing if the staff actually get it. My sister worked at a place once where the owner used to keep the tips which went into a bowl or something. She used to tell people not to tip her.

The woman was clearly annoyed about his other friend. He should have told her to pay for the whole thing once she got annoyed, then nexted her.

 

[ketostix]

You are under no obligation to fully disclose any material details until exclusivity or marriage. There are no contracts in casual dating.

The issue is after you been dating someone for some amount of time, and they ask you if it's exclusively, then they're entitled to not be totally lied to or deceived. What Bat implied to her was that he acknowledged there was an understanding they were exclusive and insinuated that he wasn't seeing other people.

A simple "We are not exclusive, let's see if we are compatible first" will suffice. Casual dating is just that, casual. Return phone calls, explanations or details are NOT requirements.

This I agree with. It's similar to my advice of not acknowledging there was an understanding of exclusitivity. I was suggesting for him to try to buy more time, by saying he's not ready yet, without implying he was being exclusive.

Exactly. It's just the nature of things, and you have to accept that. However, when you think about it, you're still getting a pretty sweet deal--sex without commitment. As long as you are upfront about things and aren't doing this just to glorify your ego, I'd say you're doing a-ok.

I agree with this and your own conclusion Bat, that there's really no way of keeping a girl around indefinitely without actually agreeing to be exclusive. What I'm saying is if you lie to her about being exclusive, your actions won't be congruent with it and she will get suspicious. Why not just be more honest and buy yourself more time by putting exclusitivety off? At least when she goes away, she might not go away mad.

 

[The Bat]

After all of this, we have established:

1. It's his prerogative to withhold personal info if he is not in an exclusive relationship, as he is willing to accept whatever reasonable consequences if she finds out;

2. It's his prerogative to tip as much or as little as he pleases, since he paid the bill.

So, to answer the OP's question:

...the consensus here is that it was probably more a result of #1 than #2.

People are arguing whether or not he should have been more or less honest if he actually didn't want to drop the plate. That is up to him. But I think we've established which factor was the likelier cause of her exit, which was his question in the first place.

Wait, the consensus is really that the tip was what led her to act like a total b!tch? I honestly thought it was that AND #2. Just a big explosion of estrogen madness...

@ Keto

See, I didn't imply that I wasn't seeing other women. I simply gave a vague answer which was interpreted the way I didn't want her to.

And more often than not, women DO interpret it as, "Maybe he is...maybe he isn't...I'm going to do things to win him over so he can fall in line with me". But every now and then, I run into the problem that I've ran into with this plate.

And yes, whenever an exclusivity offer comes up, I usually stall for as long as possible. That is the best course of action. But with this one, I just didn't want to deal with her disrespectful behavior anymore.

 

[Mr. Me]

"You are under no obligation to fully disclose any material details until exclusivity or marriage."
"It's his prerogative to withhold personal info if he is not in an exclusive relationship"

It's one thing not to be under obligation to disclose details, absolutely true. But it's quite another thing to give misleading statements to throw the person off.

"Are you seeing other women?" can be answered in lots of ways that don't mislead and yet don't divulge details that aren't her business. You know she didn't ask because she wanted to volunteer to be a part of a harem.

But when you answer "Hey, don't worry about it" - that can be taken as an assurance to her.

A simple "We are not exclusive, let's see if we are compatible first" will suffice. Casual dating is just that, casual.

Exactly. That's what dating is for. But he didn't say that.

And he's a little bit more then just dating them, seeing if they're compatible, no? He's having sex with them and they don't know the situation, they all think they're the only ones. Kind of an unleveled playing field there. It denies them the knowledge to decide for themselves if this is for them or not. It's using people.

So you ask the girl, "you don't have AIDS do you?" and she answers, "Hey, don't worry about it..." That would be an okay answer, right? Or is it only okay to deny someone an honest answer to a question they have a right to ask if there's not a life or death consequence? Answer me that.

I guess I'm being a stickler about this because I don't believe a guy has to give vague statements intended to mislead people to get what he wants. If he has to mislead people to have what he wants, then his life is based on a pretense. I also think people who have a need to bend the truth because that's the only way they can accomplish their goals end up lying to themselves as well, and I just don't see any good coming out of that. What happens next?

But hey, don't worry about it.

I've dated girls, having sex with them, and they know most definitely we're not exclusive. I've said *specific* things to them when it came up like, "hey, we're both free agents" and "you can go out with anyone you like" - even had a girl tell me she stopped seeing other guys even though I indicated we were not exclusive - and I haven't had any problems handling it that way, which honestly amazes me. I don't have to cover, give vague statements, nothing but just be up front.

 

[guru1000]

It's one thing not to be under obligation to disclose details, absolutely true. But it's quite another thing to give misleading statements to throw the person off.

I agree to a point.

When you initially mislead you are compensating for a weakness which in this case is game.

Over time when you see there is an emotional investment in place, being entirely truthful is not altruistic either.

Truth - " I can't see you anymore, I don't believe we are compatible"

Truth -"You are unattractive, I can't f*ck you, low class and not something I would ever bring home to my family"

Both are true statements.

And he's a little bit more then just dating them, seeing if they're compatible, no?

I would argue he is testing their compatibility. I am pretty sure when one girl proves leagues ahead of the harem, he will choose her for the prize of exclusivity. This is the premise of spinning, to keep your best option.

He's having sex with them and they don't know the situation, they all think they're the only ones. Kind of an unleveled playing field there. It denies them the knowledge to decide for themselves if this is for them or not. It's using people.

I cannot take this position. After all, we are not there to examine his game.

But, if he is spinning five of them and runs into some of them while on the field dating, it is fair to assume every party involved has a SENSE it is not exclusive.

Even if every party is not sure, the terms of exclusivity were never brought to the table. The women needs to be responsible for her own feelings.

If the role was reversed and you never discussed exclusivity with a girl you are seeing, she would have every right to continue dating. There are no verbal or written contracts in place.

So you ask the girl, "you don't have AIDS do you?" and she answers, "Hey, don't worry about it..." That would be an okay answer, right? Or is it only okay to deny someone an honest answer to a question they have a right to ask if there's not a life or death consequence? Answer me that.

This is a clear straw man rebut. We are now comparing life threatening with casual dating.

I guess I'm being a stickler about this because I don't believe a guy has to give vague statements intended to mislead people to get what he wants.

I agree but being entirely truthful can be abusive as well.

Girl -"What did you do last night?"

You- "I had such a great time. The girl I was with was amazing!"

This is an abusive display to a girl you have been seeing for two months.

A simple "I was out with some friends" will do.

If he has to mislead people to have what he wants, then his life is based on a pretense. I also think people who have a need to bend the truth because that's the only way they can accomplish their goals end up lying to themselves as well, and I just don't see any good coming out of that. What happens next?

It is based on context. When you have a contractual obligation or commitment, your integrity will determine whether or not you honor it.

Casual dating is just that casual. You do not owe commitments, explanations or phone calls. Where the confusion comes in is whether the girl believes you are exclusive. State "No" and that is all she is owed.

 

[Mr. Me]

but being entirely truthful can be abusive as well.

Girl -"What did you do last night?"

You- "I had such a great time. The girl I was with was amazing!"

You're mistaking being honest/truthful with being open. You don't need to be an open book and give details to someone when the details are not any of their business.

Girl -"What did you do last night?"

You- "Oh, a bunch of stuff. C'mon let's go or we're gonna be late."

So when the girl asks "are you seeing other women?", the answer isn't about being open and saying "Yes, I'm seeing two other women, Sally and Jane, and I'm open to seeing one or two more". But we can be be upfront with her without giving any details one way or the other and say, "Well, we're not exclusive, we're both free agents, right?"

Over time when you see there is an emotional investment in place, being entirely truthful is not altruistic either.

Truth - " I can't see you anymore, I don't believe we are compatible"

Truth -"You are unattractive, I can't f*ck you, low class and not something I would ever bring home to my family"

Both are true statements.

Here what you're really talking about is being blunt and not tactful, again, that's not about honesty per se. Both honest statements can be rephrased in a way that doesn't have to be harsh, although "I don't believe we are compatible" isn't that bad to say. That second one could be rephrased as "I just can't see us as a couple, sorry." Breakups are always going to hurt at least one person, no sense being a d1ck in what one says to make the break.

So you ask the girl, "you don't have AIDS do you?" and she answers, "Hey, don't worry about it..." That would be an okay answer, right? Or is it only okay to deny someone an honest answer to a question they have a right to ask if there's not a life or death consequence? Answer me that.


This is a clear straw man rebut. We are now comparing life threatening with casual dating.

So your position is that it's okay to mislead if it's not life threatening.

So this scenario would be acceptable to you:

YOU: You don't have herpes do you?

HER: Don't worry about it.

 

[samspade]

Wait, the consensus is really that the tip was what led her to act like a total b!tch? I honestly thought it was that AND #2. Just a big explosion of estrogen madness...

#2 was the tipping issue, haha. I meant that most people seem to agree she was not as upset over the tip as the plate-spinning, but she used the tip as an opportunity to be a b*tch. She would not have made a big deal out of it if she weren't already angry, that's what I meant.

 

[jophil28]

The plate gets upset and tells me to tip $3 or $4. I told her that when she pays for the bill, she can tip whatever she wants. She got even more furious and proceeded to give me $10 to cover her lunch and add more tip. I told her that now she is just trying to spite me. She then takes her money back and basically calls me a cheap a-hole. I tell her that it’s my money and only I decide how I’m going to spend it.

I lived in the US back in my college days and now I live in the Australian version of Florida...The Gold Coast, SE Queensland .
Our culture is remarkable similar to that in the south east of the USA.

WE all share a common language .

However, when I read the quote above someting bothers me about how some of you guys are willing to tolerate and negotiate with women who act so badly.

IT would be HIGHLY unusual for the scene above to happen 'down under'. Aussie woman go to the bathroom or smile and look away when the bill is being paid. I have dated a zillion women, wined and dined in all manner or eateries and I have NEVER had to deal with a hissy fit like the above.

IT is NOT OK for a woman to challenge a guys tips. NOt even if she is his wife ...perhaps she MAY make a quiet suggestion in his ear that he add a few more bucks, but that is as far as it goes for me.

Back to the OP's story ...Then she makes it worse by trying to get the power position by tossing her $10 at him and telling him what to do.

AT that point , I would have stood up, paid the check including the tip that I decided in the first place and just walked out.. not another word.

Sheesh ! You guys need to to tighten up your rules.

 

[STR8UP]

Back to the OP's story ...Then she makes it worse by trying to get the power position by tossing her $10 at him and telling him what to do.

AT that point , I would have stood up, paid the check including the tip that I decided in the first place and just walked out.. not another word.

Sheesh ! You guys need to to tighten up your rules.

Or perhaps she was appalled and embarrassed at the low tip?

What if The Bat was rude and obnoxious to the server? would her behavior have been justified?

You have to understand that for a past or present service employee who works for tips it is a HUGE insult for someone who is sitting at your table to tip less than the minimum standard unless there are extenuating circumstances.

A below average tip is an INSULT. It isn't an "option" to tip whatever you want in the US.....it is as much of a "custom" as is removing your shoes when you enter a Japanese home. if you don't do it you insult the host. If you don't tip appropriately you not only insult the server but you fukk with his/her livelihood. Not cool.

This was probably just the spark that lit the already primed fuse, but to be honest with you I would drop a plate in a second for either being rude to service staff or tipping inappropriately. I don't care how hot she is.

 

[jophil28]

Or perhaps she was appalled and embarrassed at the low tip?

What if The Bat was rude and obnoxious to the server? would her behavior have been justified?

.

I understand the mandatory tipping requirements in the USA.

However, even if she were "appalled and embarrassed", she could have quietly added a few more dollars to the plate WITHOUT a word, or by saying to The Bat that she "enjoyed the service " or some such..
Instead,she used the events to create a public battlefield and insult him. Not OK, not even close.
SHe had several other options available to her rather than become argumentative and aggressive. SHe chose to go with the hissy fit.

Again, if the Bat had "been rude and obnoxious to the server", protocol expects her to say nothing at the time.. IT is not her fight, so silence from her is required.
However, she is then at liberty to express her feelings about his "attitude" or treatment of the waitress on the drive home.

 

[2.0]

You're a cheater, and that's nothing to be proud of.

"Plate?" Come on!

 

[STR8UP]

She might not have handled it properly.

We have established the fact that it is likely that she was pissed over something else and this tipped her over the edge.

But my point is that tipping is as a HUGE issue for some people. And it doesn't matter if you have been in the service industry before....if you live in the US you should know better.

Honestly, someone who is not aware of or who ignores tipping protocol is not worthy of my time. she can find another dude that will allow her to abuse service staff who work their asses off to ensure her a good time. I will have no part of it. It's shows her true character. Same goes for dudes.

 

[jophil28]

So what do you think, men? Did she really flip out because of the tip or the fact that she ran into me and a different girl (which happened about a month ago)?

THat was the OP's original question, not whether he tipped enough.

However this thread has become a personal opportunity for a few people to rant loudly about the obligations regarding tipping.

To answer the OPs question..
"No. she was pissed because she wasn't getting from you what she considered she deserved or was entitled to after two months of dating."

The End.