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Deciding about my future. I'd value some thoughts.

EastWind

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This thread is not about women. It's about my life. I'm not entirely sure how to proceed and how to weigh the options I have in front of me.

I've recently finished my physics degree at one of the best German universities with a very good grade, after which I took some time off to take care of my mom's heritage. She left us a little something, but it was scattered and my sister is not one to take such things seriously, so I made it my part-time job to pick up all the bits and stack them up again neatly.

Then I started thinking about what I want to do with my life and my degree. I've always been very conflicted about that because I'm very hard to motivate for ideas that aren't my own. This would make it quite hard for me to take up a job somewhere and work for someone on what aren't my ideas. I'd get bored easily, start counting the minutes until the workday is up, etc. Life is too short for this.

Almost everybody in my family has always been of the opinion that I should get a PhD. This is a bit different in Germany than it is in the states. Getting a PhD in the states almost always makes you a scientist or a professor. In Germany, many people get a PhD because of the experience and the seniority it confers and then take it outside the university.

Personally, I never thought I'd be getting one. I didn't want to spend my time doing basic research. I like to do things that I can see the immediate use of. Play around with ideas and fiddle around with building blocks, seeing how they fit together. Which is why I've always had fun with webdesign and programming little tools, messing around with computers.

But looking for jobs, it became apparent fairly quickly that with a physics degree, I'd be either doing boring programming jobs (think anti-virus or software for banks or something), or 70 hour jobs (like consulting) or research in some company.

So, on a whim, I sent out two applications for PhD positions in Munich in the field that is interesting to me. Note that I didn't say fascinating. One professor had no openings, the other invited me to an interview and offered me the position. It would be a full-time job, paying about 85-90% of what I could hold out for in a company, a topic that sounds interesting to me and probably holds opportunities for fiddling about with technical stuff. It's not too theoretical and would get me out of the "pure theoretical stuff" physics corner. In a little over four years, I'd have four years of working experience and decent pay, one of the highest degrees in Germany and I could probably get this done by the time I'm 30.

The downside is that the position is square in the middle of Munich, and I hate large towns. I thought for sure that after my degree I'd be able to get out of Munich and settle somewhere just outside a smaller town. I don't know the people I'd be working with, but at a first glance they seemed like a mixture of sober hard-working nerds and career fanatics. I'm worried that I'll be spending ten hours a day in that place and that it won't really be fun enough to keep me from being miserable all the while.

But what's holding me back is this - is this really what I want? My mom, the person who knew me best, shortly before she passed, told me she didn't think a PhD would be the thing for me. I don't remember the exact reasons but they had something to do with what I mentioned above; that I should go out into a field that I love and fiddle around with things, try stuff out, and not get stuck into some basic research or theoretical thing in a university.

What's more is the fact that I don't have the feeling I've done all I could to find jobs that would fit me. Some part laziness, some part being scared, to be completely honest. Part of me is still scared of going out into the big world and just take up something that sounds good to me. Especially considering that ever since I was a little boy, my dad would always tell me how important it is to find a good job, work as much as the company wants you to and stick to it. The idea in my head is that once you've found a job, you're stuck with it, for better or for worse. My dad has always worked in the same company, by the way. And he's what you'd call a workaholic.

I'm not a workaholic. I just want to find something that's fun to do, that I'm good at and pays enough for a decent lifestyle and savings for later, not any of this "get rich by 35" crap. I guess the best fit for me would be freelance work, but I have neither the connections nor the certainty that my skills are so extraordinary in any area as to compete with established freelancers.

Note that women figure nowhere in this. I don't care at all about getting a degree to "get better women" or "make more money to get better women". If anything, I'd a attract status *****s.

I'm a guy who likes to be comfortable. I'm safety-oriented in that I don't like to gamble and prefer trading off money and status for freedom of time and decision.

Still, would I be closing off too many options if I didn't take the PhD? Would it be worth the time and work to have this degree at just under 30? Will this give me more freedom? Am I just hopping on the first opportunity that looks good on paper? Or is the PhD position a wise decision objectively?

I'm sure this is not very well ordered, since it's just a collection of my thoughts on the subject. But I'd appreciate any input, any thoughts.
 

Scaramouche

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Dear East Wind,
A German degree in Physics,no mean achievement!...Just relax and go with the flow....You haven't got many cogent arguments against doing your PhD...Give it your best one and go for it...Good Luck from Down Under!
 

SXS

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Honestly, I think you could wait till later in life to get a Phd. I'll try mine only when I'm closing to 40. When you got more money, lived a little, saw the world out there.
And one thing, the academic world doesn't really give you that much freedom, but it's a quiet, stress free life.
 

Boilermaker

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I don't have time to answer this in detail,

but you should get a PhD.

Your notion about PhD's value in the US is also very inaccurate. Google, Intel, IBM are the largest employers of PhD's. Plus, having a PhD has little to do with "basic research" these days. "Applied" fields have dominated the basic fields in terms of volume a long time ago.

Also: Seniority and prestige is very important just as well in the US. Without a PhD with a physics degree, you are no more than a blue collar worker in the modern economy. Especially in advanced countries like, Germany, US!

Sad but true.

I have always wanted to do PhD and I am doing it with lots of enjoyment, but I don't think it's an choice in your position. And yes, you would be closing lots of options:

1) you'll never have a chance to compete for positions in academia in case you change your mind later.
Academia is one of the safest places to be in terms of job security once you get your tenure.

2) you'll always have seniors with PhD's if you are to work in a company who does R & D.

3) you'll never be considered a "physicist" without a PhD. It's like having an MD degree and stopping there. If you want to do physics, you won't have a

chance.

4) you can't do physics per se without doing a PhD. What will you do? Solve inclined plane problems? You can't even teach physics unless it's to high school

kids.

Getting a PhD when you're 40 is ridiculous and pointless ... What to do with that? It's already too late.

Of course this comes with a disclaimer, all of this is personal opinion. I live in the US, and my PhD is on EE but I do work on quantum transport.

Good luck.
 

BMX

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Repeat and memorize everything that you said in paragraph three carefully. You are spot on with those points in particular. Through trial-and-error and guidance only from childhood dreams, I am just now getting to where I want to be career-wise. I read somewhere that if you think that you can live without pursuing a particular goal or dream, that it was probably an irrelevant one to begin with. Focus, buckle down because now you have more maturity and experience to do what you need to get on your feet.
 

taiyuu_otoko

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I have a degree in Physics, and thought about going for the pHd but only for a bit. I'm glad I didn't. I've worked different jobs, been to different places, and learned plenty of things.

My own opinion is that having a B.S. in physics is a bit more flexible, and can lend itself to different jobs later on. If you went straight for the PHD, you might pigeon hole yourself.

Maybe get a job with a bachelors, and see what's out there. Then go back and get your phd in five years or so, if you still miss what a phd in physics would bring you.

On the other hand if you're REALLY sure what you want out of life, and a PhD will get you there, then full steam ahead.

Remember, any degree is just a tool. Your ultimate goal is what you can use that tool to squeeze out of life.

My two cents.
 

SXS

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I don't understand why so many people look for physics degrees instead of engineering. I think in gerenal enginers have more versatility out there, but well, I don't know, physicists I know are usually in academia.
 

Colossus

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It sounds like your interests lie more in "tinkering" than teaching or grant-writing or theoretical stuff. I worked with a guy in a biomechanics lab a few years back who had a Master's (the step before a PhD in the US) and he was incredibly smart. No one could believe he wasn't going for his PhD. But he said he felt it would take him away from the technical tinkering her really loved to do in the lab. He didn't want to be behind a desk all day dealing with institutional politics and grant-writing, which is what the senior scientists did with much of their time.

So there's one perspective. I also used to have a flatmate from Germany around the same time who was finishing his PhD in pharmacy. He was already a pharmacist in Germany, but he said with a basic pharmacy degree all he could really do was dispense medication. So he ended up finishing his PhD here in the states and getting a consulting job in London; but like you said, he was working 70 hour weeks and his job was very high-stress. I'm not sure he was much happier.

I can relate strongly to your work philosophy. I find it very difficult to stay motivated and interested when I am working on someone else's dreams or ideas. I am still trying to find my niche in the medical world. Good pay only goes so far. And my father is much like yours---he views work as one of the highest orders of life. Work as much as you are asked and then some, stick with a job for life, do what your boss says regardless of how much you like it. He is a "live to work" man.

I don't think you would regret getting your PhD, but I think you may have more lateral mobility at your current level. Whatever you decide, take it from me and don't do something you are only marginally interested in just for job security or salary reasons.
 

st_99

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I never did well in the sciences because I was a lazy student and laziness doesnt lend itself well to math and science. I did get an A in my astronomy elective though! :D
 

EastWind

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Thanks for all the replies, guys. It's helpful to get different viewpoints.

Right now I'm thinking - a way to find out what I really want to do is to try things out, and I could just try to work at that institute for a while. In any case, it will be an experience.

My biggest fear is getting sucked into the rat race. Ending up doing overtime because "it's expected", never having free time, etc. I'm well aware that a PhD is not a walk in the park. But neither should it eat up all of one's free time, right?
 

sodbuster

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Well, since you don't like risk taking... you are going to be doing SOME work that is boring. The only way to really do what YOU want is to start your won business ... unfortunately, you still end up doing stuff you don't like there{ask any business owner]

You'll need to figure out what PERCENTAGE of sh1t you are willing to put up with. Is it 20%, or 50%? BECAUSE... the safer the job, the more beaurocratic Bull Sh1t you have to deal with. teaching IS safe,but boring. A start up company won't be safe or boring
 

EastWind

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Colossus - it sounds like we're quite alike on a few core points (by no means do I view the other replies as less valuable). My biggest problem is the fear of "screwing it all up": start something that doesn't work out (whatever the reason is! Even if it's not even my fault, but this applies even more so if it is) and "lose time". Everybody keeps telling me my biggest asset is the fact that I'm still young for having the degree I have and that I should make something of it. You know, and not spend time doing something else and then "being thirty and three years out of your field so no-one will employ you."

I can't help it, but it just sounds like people are repeating what worked for them, even if it wasn't much fun. Of course, most of my family isn't exactly working for minimum wage, but they do work a lot, and I'm not sure how much fun their jobs are. A lot is probably rationalisation.

As I said, my biggest problem is fear. Of just putting everything aside and going for something that looks completely random and "out of the ordinary" to everyone else, to throw away security and go for something that might go sour. I am not very good at that. I might never be the guy who follows his every fancy and dram. But I want to find a solid middle ground.

Also, fear is doing things wrong. It's a side-effect of growing up with my dad, where everything that was done "wrong" by his standard or just wrong in general was a big issue.

It all boils down to this, the point where my feelings tell me something's not right: it seems that every time I achieve something that - supposedly, by society's standards - should get me status, and income, and choices all that ends up happening is that something more difficult, less fun to do presents itself. You know, how getting a very good high school diploma / SAT enables you to work really hard in college to get a very good degree enabling you to obtain a high-profile, high-paying job where you end up working 70 hour weeks or enabling you to get a PhD - still more hard, tedious work - enabling you to... you see where this is going.

I recognize the need to work. I recognize the fact that you can't have something for nothing. I'm just in awe at what seems to be a machinery made for the purpose of milking the intellectual working force in a way laid out by a few select elites.
 

Boilermaker

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I don't understand this attitude ...

Really. Don't be offended, but.

You haven't done a thing by getting that degree.

You sound like you have this great achievement that you are so proud of,

and acting like you are deserving some philosophical freedom ...

You are 25 and you just got a physics degree?

I am 27 and I have been doing PhD for nearly 6 years now ... I am getting old for getting

the PhD!...

I am not saying you HAVE to get a PhD, but someone your age must talk

much more urgently about what to do in life.

You are not 18 anymore, you are not going to "grow up" and "change the

world"...

In 5 years people will be asking for real achivements, so get to work very

quickly...

I don't know how a man can make all this existential talk at 25 with a

mere college degree and zero job experience with little focus about what's going on with his life.
 
U

user43770

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Boilermaker said:
I am not saying you HAVE to get a PhD, but someone your age must talk

much more urgently about what to do in life.

You are not 18 anymore, you are not going to "grow up" and "change the

world"...

In 5 years people will be asking for real achivements, so get to work very

quickly...

I don't know how a man can make all this existential talk at 25 with a

mere college degree and zero job experience with little focus about what's going on with his life.
Why does he have to think urgently - because society expects him to? He's already expressed his disinterest in doing what others think is good for him.

I don't think it's wrong to question your direction in life, no matter your age. It's never too late to find happiness; not many people find it by doing what society shames them into.
 

Boilermaker

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Society shames them into ?...

Wait what?

No, no, wrong thread.

This isn't feminist bashing.

He has to think urgently because Newton invented physics 400 years ago when he was 25.

Nobody shamed me into doing something. I am sure backbreaker will have an issue in accepting he was shamed into starting a business as well.

Men do things because they have this enormous internal desire that urges them to do things.

If you are going to be a wimp and disconnect from society, while using all the benefits off of other people's backs,

go right ahead.

But you lose the right to whine about 'society', then.

Tu comprends?
 
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user43770

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You speak of urgency like you're talking about a woman's value on the dating market. The only reason he would need to hurry is if he was living by somebody else's plans. I don't see what the rush is.

And you spoke of people asking for real achievements- who are these people and why should he care? If they don't fit into what he thinks will make him happy, he needn't worry about them.
 

Boilermaker

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You make a good point, yes. Just like woman's value on the dating market, a man's value needs to rise as he gets older.

That's why making 25K a year (like me) is OK when you are 25, but not at all okay when you are 40.

Apart from having to financially survive throughout my life, I feel the urgency for purely selfish reasons. A debt to society? Maybe slightly...

I would even say Men have a wall of building themselves and once you miss it, you will lose part of your manhood.

I can't think of a Nihilist 'alpha' who rants about how society expects him to man up. It just won't work.

A good example was the confrontation of Don Draper and some hipsters in New York in the show Mad Men.

They were trying to demean him because he works in advertisement business; yet he's the guy with the means to get the Paris ticket for a love trip ...

And they end up being heroin addicts.

I think my point is loud and clear.

Let me stop, I feel like I am taking over his thread.

Cheers,
 

SXS

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This isn't feminist bashing.
He has to think urgently because Newton invented physics 400 years ago when he was 25.
Nobody shamed me into doing something. I am sure backbreaker will have an issue in accepting he was shamed into starting a business as well.
Men do things because they have this enormous internal desire that urges them to do things.
Newton also was a virgin.

Everything you do in life you need to think why are you doing. We own nothing to anyone in this world. Heck, you don't even know if you are going to be alive tomorrow. Yes, acomplishing is good, but life is more than that. At the end of the day, we are all just a bunch of talking monkeys with very limited life.
 
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user43770

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A man only needs to do what makes him happy. That's all I've been trying to say.
 

EastWind

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Sorry for the late reply guys, I moved to a new apartment.

Sorry to say so, Boilermaker, but you sound like you're being urged yourself... I don't know by whom, but you seem to have this huge desire to prove yourself. Saying that men need to have achieved x by age y.

This is the point, actually. I feel that I've been told what the right way to do things is for so long that I can't actually imagine another way, even if I want to.
 
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