Boxing - Right Hook?

[youknowtherest]

Have you seen Marciano? He did not look impressive to me.

that is exactly what I mean when I say, "...he had a two-fisted, brawling style that used a short right hook a lot. He, however, was by no means a textbook fighter."

He wasn't impressive to watch but I'd to fight that m-th-rf----r. And his right hook would break bones.

 

[CLOONEY]

I always thought Vernon had one of the best jabs out there. Thats how be beat Mosley's speed.

Marciano beat the best opposition he could... so I always feel its unfair to criticize him. The same can be said of Larry Holmes.

One sure could critisize Larry Holmes. However, Holmes is never ranked as the #1 heavyweight of all-time by guys who dont know their boxing history, unlike Marciano.

Vernon beat Mosley because of one thing, power! He nurtalised anything Mosley had because Mosley was scared to death of being hit with that bomb right hand again that he was caught with a coulpe of times in round 2 of their first fight. The following 22 rounds they fought, Mosley would throw a punch, put his head down, and grab on for dear life.

Watch Quartey V Forrest (even though its a far past it Quartey), he surely has one of the best jabs out there (especially in his prime). He even outjabed Oscar (who is rated by many as possessing a terrific jab, just ask George Foreman, haha).

 

[MrS]

Holmes lacked stellar achievement. He was in a "difficult" era, in it was being post-Ali really.
So all he could do was demolish the late 70s contenders, early 80s and then suddenly he's 35 years old. Fought Holy, Lewis, Tyson at ages he shouldn't have and lost. He was kinda unlucky.
Terrific jab though.
Lots of people just say he's a poor man's Ali, but he was good in his own right.
Never liked him, however.
"Marciano can't hold my jockstrap", and that whole drop kick vs Berbick were funny

 

[Reyaj]

Yeah I gotta admit I don't like Holmes's personality for saying **** like that but he was a terrific boxer, had one of the best jabs of a heavy ever.

Clooney I have to say I disagree about Vernon's jab. He will even admit that thats one of his best punches. Also in the post Mosley interview (first fight) he said that was his secret to beating Mosley's speed. I didn't see the Quartey fight... but I heard Quartey did out jab him, so I guess he does have one of the top jabs out there. He may have out jabbed Oscar in their fight, but Oscar did a nice job dropping him in the 12th with the patent left hook

Is an "over hand" right the same as a right hook? I hear this term used a lot.

 

[Reyaj]

oh regarding Marciano.. don't forget he would have been considered a cruiserweight in this day and age. He was knocking out fighters a lot heavier than him.

I think he should get more credit as an all time P4P based on this.

 

[Panda 2000]

I may have thought about applying a right hook before but since I started training boxing, the right hook just seems ... awkward, like previous posters said. It throws you off balance if you're in the correct fighting stance and makes you very prone to falling to the left. Although I am a line boxer because I'm tall so a right hook is naturally not quite right for me. Being a line boxer, my left foot is way in front of my right foot, I almost stand completely to the side. But if you're a brawler, like Mike Tyson, who didn't have enough distance so he kept his feet parallel and went directly in to his opponents so they couldn't take advantage of their height, a right hook might be okay. So it just comes down to your fighting style (line boxer vs. brawler) which should usually be a reflection of your height.
My favourite would have to be the left jab and high left jab. I don't know how you guys call the high left jab, but it's basically like a normal left jab only that with the high left jab you lift your elbow higher and more to the side and rotate your arm so that when the punch lands your knuckles are parallel to the ground. Also you put out more elbow. That's devastating and fast.

 

[Bonhomme]

Marciano must have had incredible toughness and endurance. he would indeed be a cruiserweight these days, but he definitely belongs near the top of the P4P greats, based on everything I've seen and heard.

Ali also doesn't get enough credit for his toughness and endurance, either.

 

[Reyaj]

I totally agree Bonhomme.

 

[CLOONEY]

Marciano is top 10 heavies of all time, without doubt. What constitutes him being near the top of the all-time P4P lists? What wins? How many defences? Which great heavies did he beat in their primes? Sure Marciano is an all-time great, he is even in the top 5 heavies of all-time. But he would struggle to make the top 30 who have ever graced the ring P4P.

Remember, Marciano was not fighting the size of heavies as their are today, men in general then were not as large. Even Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Jack Johnston for gods sake were not big in comparison to todays heavies. So even though Marciano was not big, he was not fighting overly big guys.

Where was Vernons jab against Quartey or against Mayorga? Where was it in his amateur career, especially against Tszyu where he was destroyed? Jayer, since your just learning boxing, watch Forrest throw his jab, notice it doesnt get much snap, it doesnt come straight back to his face, it doesnt control a fight. It is quiet obvious, just view more of his fights and watch them closely. It is quiet obvious and aparent he doesnt have a top jab. Now Tommy Hearns, that was a jab! Quartey, that is a jab!

An overhand right is competely different from a right hook. Overhand is exactly that, comes over the top, Mosley throws this all the time for example.

 

[CLOONEY]

Marciano must have had incredible toughness and endurance. he would indeed be a cruiserweight these days, but he definitely belongs near the top of the P4P greats, based on everything I've seen and heard.

Ali also doesn't get enough credit for his toughness and endurance, either.

I disagree with this. Ali gets a LOT of credit, most call him the greatest of all-time P4P, even though him himself admits he is not. That being said, he is very close, definately top 10 in my book. I would have him around 5, I could even possibly put him as high as 2.

 

[Reyaj]

Ok this thread is just asking for some all time rankings lol

Here in IMHO are my top 10 P4P fighters of all time. I'll admit I can't be 100 percent accurate on these as I have not seen all the fighters especially those old ones from the early 1900's. But based on what I do know here is how I would rank it. Also I am looking at these fighters history of work until their retirement. Saying who was the best in their prime is a different argument.

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Sugar Ray Leonard
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Joe Louis
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Jack Dempsey
7. Roy Jones Jr.
8. Bernard Hopkins
9. James Toney
10. Floyd Mayweather Jr. (questionable to make this list right now but what the hell)


wow that was harder than I thought.

Love to hear your lists!

 

[krasnyiLion]

see that is the problem with the all time rankings

give me a break, when we talk about the greatest of all time
people talk about the "all time fighters of US" not really of the world,
but since we consider ourselves THE WORLD.:yawn:

now many AMERICAN boxing fans do not agree
but almost all of the world agrees
even iron MIKE tyson
that JULIO CESAR CHAVEZ is on of the pound 4 pound
greatest boxers of all time

what happened to
mantequilla napoles
duran
arguello
ruben olivares

???????????????????


pretty boy floyd SUCKS AZZ, compared to CHAVEZ, OR TO LEONARD
he has no business in the ALL TIME greats
he is not even one of the greatest fighters of OUR time

he is a young fighter, hyped up by the media who has only fought a handfull of good fighters like

Jose luis Castillo which in My opinion is the best fighter PBF has fought

 

[Stoic_Mo]

The right hook is easy to counter, and should only be thrown when the other guy is covering up. Watch Wladimir Klitchko's KO of Chris Byrd in ther rematch (youtube) it is BRUTAL.

 

[CLOONEY]

see that is the problem with the all time rankings

give me a break, when we talk about the greatest of all time
people talk about the "all time fighters of US" not really of the world,
but since we consider ourselves THE WORLD.:yawn:

now many AMERICAN boxing fans do not agree
but almost all of the world agrees
even iron MIKE tyson
that JULIO CESAR CHAVEZ is on of the pound 4 pound
greatest boxers of all time

what happened to
mantequilla napoles
duran
arguello
ruben olivares

???????????????????


pretty boy floyd SUCKS AZZ, compared to CHAVEZ, OR TO LEONARD
he has no business in the ALL TIME greats
he is not even one of the greatest fighters of OUR time

he is a young fighter, hyped up by the media who has only fought a handfull of good fighters like

Jose luis Castillo which in My opinion is the best fighter PBF has fought

Actually, Castillo has beaten the likes of Johnston, Lazcano, Casamayor, Coralles, Bazan, he is definately a HOFer. Corrales is also a HOF fighter, and so is Hernandez. So PBF is DEFINATELY one of the best of the era. One of the greats of all-time, but nowhere near the top 10 yet IMHO.

Arguello is great, as is Olivares and Chavez. But I would not have any in the top 10.

 

[CLOONEY]

Ok this thread is just asking for some all time rankings lol

Here in IMHO are my top 10 P4P fighters of all time. I'll admit I can't be 100 percent accurate on these as I have not seen all the fighters especially those old ones from the early 1900's. But based on what I do know here is how I would rank it. Also I am looking at these fighters history of work until their retirement. Saying who was the best in their prime is a different argument.

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Sugar Ray Leonard
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Joe Louis
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Jack Dempsey
7. Roy Jones Jr.
8. Bernard Hopkins
9. James Toney
10. Floyd Mayweather Jr. (questionable to make this list right now but what the hell)


wow that was harder than I thought.

Love to hear your lists!

I dont have an exact top ten. But in it, around the order, I would have:

Ray Robinson.
Ray Leonard.
Roberto Duran.
Muhammad Ali.

Those are the definates, others would include Greb, Tunney, Pep, Saddler, Jofre.

You have James Toney in your all-time list or BHOP, or what about 4 of them being heavies? And you are rating some of these guys without even watching films on them? Man, not critisising you, but I dont think you should be arguing boxing history with people who know most of its entire history and have seen pretty much all the ATGs in action.

Other guys would include Walker, J Johnson, Hearns, Charles, Hagler, Monzon, DLH, Ike Williams, Whitaker man the list just goes on and on. Gans, Benny Leonard, Griffith, Pryor, Arguello, Olivarez, Nelson, Napoles.

Then there are guys like, Zale, Graziano, Basillio, Gavilan, Morales, Barerra there are just so many legends of the ring, and thats why when people call Marciano the greatest of all time (which I have heard countless idiots when it comes to boxing history say), it automatically tells any historian of the sweet science that they have no idea what they are talking about.

 

[CLOONEY]

Oh yeah, Armstrong would also be in the top 5 (no idea how I overlooked him), and of course Wilde would have to be somewhere within the top 20, perhaps even the top 10.

 

[Bonhomme]

No doubt boxers in the lighter weight categories tend to be underrepresented in top P4P boxers lists. There just ain't nearly as much attention given to them. Myself included (not having cable TV).

Of course Ali gets a lot of credit, but it still looks to me like common fight fans don't the extent to which his success (especially in the 70s) was due to how much of a beating he could take and keep coming. He would be right at the top of my "best jaw" list.

It's hard to say how a Robinson vs. Marciano fight would go if they were scaled to each other's size. I'll grant that Marciano was active during a relatively weak period for what was then heavywieghts. Most of the best competitors were well past their prime. But how much did Marciano himself contribute to the perceived weakeness of the comptition?

 

[CLOONEY]

When comparing Marciano to SRR, you have to look at several things.

Simply observing and seeing who is far far more skilled.....Ray Robinson. He was a far better boxer, had a hell of a lot more speed, could take just as much of a beating, was well conditioned, and I would say P4P was even more powerful than Marciano the man had the entire package. Not to mention, he was just as determined as Marciano was.

Defences and titles, Ray Robinson is all over what Marciano ever accomplished as far as titles are concerned.

Then there is of course, the main factor, competition. Ray Robinson fought as many HOFers, as Marciano did top 10 contenders. And Ray beat the lot of them in his prime. Pre his retirement to France. Only loosing once, to a man much much larger than himself, and who was also an ATG, and then beating him 5 times himself (LaMotta that is).

Ray and Marciano are incomparable. As every single person who has followed boxing history and witnessed these guys fight will tell you.

Ray is on another level to Marciano, a completely different level. That is like comparing Ernie Els to Tiger woods. Michael Chang to Pete Sampras. Charles Barkley to Michael Jordan. These guys are definately greats of their sport, but the later is on an entire different level altogether.

 

[Bonhomme]

The odd thing, is one could also say the same about Ali, as compared to Frazier. Yet all their fights were very close. The only way to really tell would be for them to fight.

 

[Reyaj]

Clooney,

Who am I arguing with? As I said thats just my opinion. I admitted that I haven't seen everyone fight however the list that I provided I have seen footage of everyone except for Jack Dempsey, but I have read a lot of history about him and his bouts/competition to feel he deserves a spot as an ATG.

All the guys you mention were certainly great fighters but the likes of Zale, Graziano, Basillio, Morales, Barerra aren't near the Top 10 all time. I would put guys like Jake LaMotta, George Foreman, and Julio Cesar Cavez ahead of them anyday.


DLH is an interesting case to judge on greatness because his record alone doesn't justify just how much of a pinnacle of the sport he has been. He has fought top guys and was really only defeated by 2 of them. Bernard Hopkins and Shane Mosley (in their first fight)

Hopkins is an ATG who was naturally bigger than Oscar to begin with so there is no shame there. And IMHO Oscar avenged his loss to Mosley in their 2nd bout but was a victim of a bad decision.

He deserves more credit than he gets. If he can somehow beat Mayweather, Oscar needs to be placed high all time.