Hello Friend,

If this is your first visit to SoSuave, I would advise you to START HERE.

It will be the most efficient use of your time.

And you will learn everything you need to know to become a huge success with women.

Thank you for visiting and have a great day!

Why "working on yourself" outside of game, on its own, isn't going to get you lots of women.

Fruitbat

Master Don Juan
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
2,769
Reaction score
1,866
I was in both categories, but the second category is what drew me here initially. I had already figured out the physical side of it on my own, as well as enough basic social skills to get me into trouble. There is a huge difference between the basic social skills that most guys have and what I have now though.
I owe mine to a sales-based career.
It wasn’t natural but after 2 decades of trying to build relationships rapidly, you learn enough craft to never be stuck for words.
 

LARaiders85

Master Don Juan
Joined
Oct 4, 2016
Messages
10,507
Reaction score
10,218
Age
37
I owe mine to a sales-based career.
It wasn’t natural but after 2 decades of trying to build relationships rapidly, you learn enough craft to never be stuck for words.
ditto for me too, in conjunction with learning about women's nature. The pandemic set me back a lot though because none of it comes naturally.
 

Konada

Master Don Juan
Joined
Mar 28, 2011
Messages
1,217
Reaction score
601
I've been rated 6-7/10 by members on this forum and never banged women from 18-25 when I was supposedly working on myself, so I can see how all that working on yourself doesn't mean you will get laid.

In fact, only when I started to actively practice game and asking women out, going on dates did I get better.

Of course working on yourself has its merits, but it should never be for the sole purpose of "being the prize". What it serves, as I have realized, as pillars of stability that you can fall back on to get some semblance of groundedness when your sexual relationships don't go so well.

It actually makes it easier to walk away from toxic situations with women when you have other areas of your life that you equally enjoy.
 

Jesse Pinkman

Master Don Juan
Joined
Mar 24, 2022
Messages
561
Reaction score
618
The depends on your standpoint.

if you’re a fairly together guy and you have zero social skills, then yes, “game” is more important.

We all come at this from different angles. I’ve never had an issue meeting and approaching women. Most the guys you see on these PUA cold approach courses are former nerds who just don’t know how to build rapport.

If you aren’t naturally socially skilled, you will see the difference as actually making an effort.

I am actually at a loss to understand why it’s so controversial to concentrate efforts to building a better life. If it’s the goal purely to get laid, with anyone, as frequently as you can then fine. If that’s your goal, more power to you.

personally I would find engaging in “daygame” cringe AF, but each to their own.

“daygame” is what socially awkward people call normal life for others. You don’t need a specific activity or theory to do it.

it’s like calling sex “c0ckgame”

for those who don’t struggle to find opportunity to go and speak to women, feel free to concentrate on important things.

I know you have a bee in your bonnet about this Pinkman, but as I’ve stated, if it works for you, more power to you. I’m just concerned your previous comments that my advice to build income, build assets and build physique and a life was “terrible advice for any young man”is a bit of an over reaction.

Broke fat losers can approach all they want, the only phone number they are getting is the Samaritans.
If you read my thread, I am talking specifically about socially normal guys who had the normal life you speak of. Those very guys underachieved with women tremendously. You also completely glossed over what I was trying to say in this thread. Having your sh-t together should be a bare minimum but on its own, its not going to get you anything.

Living a "normal" life won't get you girls, you cannot take a passive approach to it and for you to berate guys who go out and focus on daygame is very telling. Most guys on here can collectively agree that if you want to get good with women and get good looking women in your life, it has to be a focused and proactive effort.
 

Jesse Pinkman

Master Don Juan
Joined
Mar 24, 2022
Messages
561
Reaction score
618
a super majority of people here are doing fine in life but lack the social skills, hence his advice. Probably the second largest group are people who dated psychotic women and are looking for answers as to what happened and why.
I am the latter lol.

Social skills alone will not save you, that's just the truth. The thing about game is that you have to learn it, actively practice it, and then keep at it until you get better. I compare it to anything else like bodybuilding and learning to play an instrument, you have to focus at it specifically and dedicate the time in the week to do it. If you do not, then you will decline in it and become a stiff. Give it six solid months of practice and going out constantly if you want to get good.
 

Warning!

Do not subscribe to The SoSuave Newsletter unless you are already a chick magnet!

The information in each issue of The SoSuave Newsletter is too powerful for most guys to handle. If you are an ordinary guy, it is not for you. It is meant for the elite few. Not the unwashed masses.

If you know you can handle it...

If you already have girls calling you at all hours of the day and night, showing up at your door, throwing themselves at you everywhere you go...

Then sign up below.

But if you're just an average Joe, an ordinary guy, no one special – then skip this. It is not for you.

Zimbabwe

Master Don Juan
Joined
Aug 29, 2021
Messages
1,984
Reaction score
2,589
Age
26
Paid self helps courses are scummy by nature because the whole point of self-help is that in the end only you can do the work and improve yourself. Others are just guidance and there’s a bunch of free content which is enough for people if they actually just apply the stuff. The problem is they do what’s known as ‘action faking’ where they watch these self help vids and it makes them feel like they’re taking action when they’re actually not. The people selling the courses will be like “oh it’s all about accountability, we’re here to make sure you actually take action” but you don’t need to pay to do that, you can get a friend to hold you accountable or you can hold yourself accountable. Ultimately when it comes down to it, you’re going have to hold yourself accountable to do the work – especially when the course is over and how driven you are starts to decrease over time.
 

Fruitbat

Master Don Juan
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
2,769
Reaction score
1,866
I've been rated 6-7/10 by members on this forum and never banged women from 18-25 when I was supposedly working on myself, so I can see how all that working on yourself doesn't mean you will get laid.

In fact, only when I started to actively practice game and asking women out, going on dates did I get better.

Of course working on yourself has its merits, but it should never be for the sole purpose of "being the prize". What it serves, as I have realized, as pillars of stability that you can fall back on to get some semblance of groundedness when your sexual relationships don't go so well.

It actually makes it easier to walk away from toxic situations with women when you have other areas of your life that you equally enjoy.
If you read my thread, I am talking specifically about socially normal guys who had the normal life you speak of. Those very guys underachieved with women tremendously. You also completely glossed over what I was trying to say in this thread. Having your sh-t together should be a bare minimum but on its own, its not going to get you anything.

Living a "normal" life won't get you girls, you cannot take a passive approach to it and for you to berate guys who go out and focus on daygame is very telling. Most guys on here can collectively agree that if you want to get good with women and get good looking women in your life, it has to be a focused and proactive effort.
The thread was too long bro!
 

Hamurabimbi

Master Don Juan
Joined
Dec 4, 2018
Messages
1,416
Reaction score
1,137
Location
California
Working on oneself (other than improving physical appearance) won’t necessarily get one a women. Getting healthy, wealthy & wise is just a ‘Good’. Certainly better than sickly, poor & foolish. Getting women just happens. It’s part of life. But one has to be out there (that can mean at a club, on Tinder, doing work at a coffeshop rather than at home. Going to social events...) and ready to take advantage of opportunities. Or creating your own.
 

DEEZEDBRAH

Master Don Juan
Joined
Dec 24, 2017
Messages
6,038
Reaction score
4,763
Age
31
Frequent relocations have a way of destroying social circles. I had multiple relocations prior to the end of high school and some as an adult too. I never had a social circle to rely upon for arranging dates at any point in my life. My options have either been to cold approach or to use dating websites (pre-2012) or swipe apps (2012-present). When confronted with those two choices, approaching strangers in person is the better choice.

It doesn't matter how much I work on myself. I think self-improvement efforts are a good thing but meaningless unless you make the approaches or somehow develop a social circle capable of arranging dates for you. Both paths are challenging.
In all my life, it wasn't ever a scenario or option. A close buddy suggest I date a girl his wife's close friends with. I always prefer cold approach and #next in social circle game is a great way to implode it. She was a hard 7 maybe 7.5. Think girl next door. Not sure if it's generational or what but, unlike the boomers, our generation doesn't introduce or setup. Would you have preferred it? I've grown in ways I couldn't have with game but I think there's growth had we followed our biology. Grew up on the 50s. Wife and kids etc. I think there's a more higher chance for either epic failure or success with social circle.

The caliber from cold approach is a ton better. Obviously use all avenues and run the funnel. I prefer pickup. I thrive on it. I prefer pickup to RP though I larger agree with both. You see a lot of pickup is still blue pill. Mystery being the most apparent example in the game. How's your reads going playboy?

Have you read Clarreys menu? Superb read. Him and troy I give a ton of credit. He essentially says the 50s ideal isn't on the menu. To be open to girls. Cast your reel and bait girls. Invest 0 feels or any psychological investment. Play to win but allocate your bandwidth elsewhere to higher feats and endeavors.
 

DEEZEDBRAH

Master Don Juan
Joined
Dec 24, 2017
Messages
6,038
Reaction score
4,763
Age
31
Paid self helps courses are scummy by nature because the whole point of self-help is that in the end only you can do the work and improve yourself. Others are just guidance and there’s a bunch of free content which is enough for people if they actually just apply the stuff. The problem is they do what’s known as ‘action faking’ where they watch these self help vids and it makes them feel like they’re taking action when they’re actually not. The people selling the courses will be like “oh it’s all about accountability, we’re here to make sure you actually take action” but you don’t need to pay to do that, you can get a friend to hold you accountable or you can hold yourself accountable. Ultimately when it comes down to it, you’re going have to hold yourself accountable to do the work – especially when the course is over and how driven you are starts to decrease over time.
Agreed though I think majority of us would be better off taking a BC with a OG. It's hilarious but my biggest pickup regret was not a girl. It was not doing a BC in 2010. Could have allocated time and bandwidth elsewhere.
 

Jesse Pinkman

Master Don Juan
Joined
Mar 24, 2022
Messages
561
Reaction score
618
It’s just another casualty from early PUA marketing tactics. The truth is that you can be a complete bum and still get laid. The guys that get laid a lot know the types of girls they can attract and act on it. Now, if you want some Bachelor degree or higher Stacy living in Manhattan then yes, being a bum is going to work against you. However, if you are some bum Ray Ray and Pookie that chases crack addicts/hood rats then you don’t need money or shvt. The dating market rewards the bottom and top value men much more than guys in the midgle
Meant to reply to this earlier. The guys who get laid being bums or "struggling artists" as they call them can only pull that whole thing off in a certain way. A lot of these guys might be poor but they play at a bar or at a venue that attracts certain women. You can only pull that off in your twenties, after that it becomes cringey and people start to look down on you for it. Anyone who has low enough standards can get laid.

The problem is that guys "work on themselves" ultimately for women, not for themselves, which is a sinister form of simping. It's the same as women who dress like sluts at the gym and claim it's "for themselves" - it's a feminine mindset to do anything for women's approval.

You should only do things that you enjoy. For instance I bought a dual sport motorcycle as my sole transportation method knowing full well that most women in actuality have zero interest in motorcycles and do not want to ride one. I didn't opt to buy a German made car I couldn't afford just for the status and comfort it provides them.

Richard Cooper and others talk about this a lot and while it's true that women are more attracted to you if you're on your path and whatnot, at the end of the day game is absolutely paramount, you cannot escape it.
The most beautiful thing about doing game and setting aside time for it is that you are being real with yourself. You admit to yourself that you are doing it because you want to get laid and it comes across as a lot more genuine. It's tough to do game though and that is why 95% of men usually drop out fast.
 

Jesse Pinkman

Master Don Juan
Joined
Mar 24, 2022
Messages
561
Reaction score
618
I've been rated 6-7/10 by members on this forum and never banged women from 18-25 when I was supposedly working on myself, so I can see how all that working on yourself doesn't mean you will get laid.

In fact, only when I started to actively practice game and asking women out, going on dates did I get better.

Of course working on yourself has its merits, but it should never be for the sole purpose of "being the prize". What it serves, as I have realized, as pillars of stability that you can fall back on to get some semblance of groundedness when your sexual relationships don't go so well.

It actually makes it easier to walk away from toxic situations with women when you have other areas of your life that you equally enjoy.
Such is the story of most normal guys I knew. Above average looks, decent social skills, good enough career, but still stuck with women in their social circles or off of dating apps. "Game" and cold approach in and of themselves are such an unfair cheat code in life and in dating, they take you places that other avenues cannot. The only downside is that they are quite the investment and test you emotionally.
 

SW15

Master Don Juan
Joined
May 31, 2020
Messages
5,558
Reaction score
5,128
Not sure if it's generational or what but, unlike the boomers, our generation doesn't introduce or setup. Would you have preferred it?

I think there's a more higher chance for either epic failure or success with social circle.
The chart below shows how social circle game has been fading for 30 years. I agree that social circle introductions have been declining with Millennials. Boomers were good at doing those things. I have known a few Millennials who have received social circle introductions.

In many ways, having a viable social circle would have made my life easier. If I would have had that social circle, perhaps I would have been a divorced, blue pill beta who got divorce raped so that would have been worse. An ideal combo would be Alpha male with a strong social circle. I'm more of a Sigma male and by definition, Sigma males don't have social circles as Sigmas tend to be more introverted lone wolf types.

Have you read Clarreys menu? Superb read. Him and troy I give a ton of credit. He essentially says the 50s ideal isn't on the menu. To be open to girls. Cast your reel and bait girls. Invest 0 feels or any psychological investment. Play to win but allocate your bandwidth elsewhere to higher feats and endeavors.
Haven't read it.
 

Attachments

Zimbabwe

Master Don Juan
Joined
Aug 29, 2021
Messages
1,984
Reaction score
2,589
Age
26
The chart below shows how social circle game has been fading for 30 years. I agree that social circle introductions have been declining with Millennials. Boomers were good at doing those things. I have known a few Millennials who have received social circle introductions.

In many ways, having a viable social circle would have made my life easier. If I would have had that social circle, perhaps I would have been a divorced, blue pill beta who got divorce raped so that would have been worse. An ideal combo would be Alpha male with a strong social circle. I'm more of a Sigma male and by definition, Sigma males don't have social circles as Sigmas tend to be more introverted lone wolf types.



Haven't read it.
In modern dating, Being socially awkward as a guy is basically a death sentence. I used to be really socially awkward, I got a ton of one date wonders early on from OLD until I did something about it.

In the past a socially awkward man could just work hard in his career and use provider game to secure a traditional wife.

These days socially awkward guys end up as incels, they can do self improvement as much as they like but it won't do anything because women rarely if ever approach men.
 

SW15

Master Don Juan
Joined
May 31, 2020
Messages
5,558
Reaction score
5,128
In modern dating, Being socially awkward as a guy is basically a death sentence. I used to be really socially awkward, I got a ton of one date wonders early on from OLD until I did something about it.

In the past a socially awkward man could just work hard in his career and use provider game to secure a traditional wife.

These days socially awkward guys end up as incels, they can do self improvement as much as they like but it won't do anything because women rarely if ever approach men.
This has been a change from the Boomer generation to the Millennial generation. Gen Z isn't likely to change this trend either.

Two factors changed this...

1. There is a surplus of single men to single women in the 18-39 age range. Men don't start to get a numerical advantage until their 40s and that's only for 40 something men who want to date 40 something women. Starting new relationships with 40 something women is not some fantastic prize.
2. Women have access to more men due to swipe apps and social media. In 1990, a 30 year old woman who was single could only get dates based on how much she was approached and how good her social life was. Even a 30 year woman who worked hard at her social life and went to a lot of in-person organized events in 1990 could only get a fraction of the attention that her 30 year old equivalent in 2010-present has been able to get with swipe apps and social media.

Because of immense female choice, basic beta males have been punished. I know of some men in the Boomer generation (1946-1964 birth years) that have had decent relationship/sex lives over decades. Maybe divorces, 2-3 marriages or one long relationship/marriage. Maybe some slow years in the bedroom due to the long marriages. However, even in slow bedroom years, they still got more sex than their Millennial incel or nearly incel equivalents.
 

image

Put away your credit card.

You can now read our detailed guide to women and dating for free - Right Here!

DEEZEDBRAH

Master Don Juan
Joined
Dec 24, 2017
Messages
6,038
Reaction score
4,763
Age
31
The chart below shows how social circle game has been fading for 30 years. I agree that social circle introductions have been declining with Millennials. Boomers were good at doing those things. I have known a few Millennials who have received social circle introductions.
Yeah. My buddy suggested an introduction. Cute girl. I always preferred baddies, young, reckless. Not playing house. Last heard she's engaged or something. Only had a few boyfriends and very LTRS.

In many ways, having a viable social circle would have made my life easier. If I would have had that social circle, perhaps I would have been a divorced, blue pill beta who got divorce raped so that would have been worse. An ideal combo would be Alpha male with a strong social circle. I'm more of a Sigma male and by definition, Sigma males don't have social circles as Sigmas tend to be more introverted lone wolf types.
Rollo says it doesn't exist but thinks Gama and the others exist. Not sure I agree.

By your definition above, I lean more sigma too. March to the beat of my own drum. Closer to mgtow then blue pill. Swinging bachelor more like it. Married to the game through and through. Majority of RP are playing house. A miniscule amount of men agreement alpha. Simps are Gama males. Not even beta. Majority of blue pill are married betas. YouTube is full of them.

I think there's variations of any spectrum. So I agree with you. Beta is a strong #2 contrary to married dating coaches and house husband's.

Black pill is more Gama male and what mystery referred to as weeded out of existence and from the dating pool.

Haven't read it.
Worth a read whenever you get to it. How are your current reads?

I got to agree with you. Say I never learned pickup and game, say I married that girl or another from social circle, likely I get divorce raped. Cucked even.

It's sort of a blessing in disguise.
 

3agle 3yes

Master Don Juan
Joined
Aug 22, 2012
Messages
548
Reaction score
265
Age
35
Working on yourself is probably one of the best bits of advice you’ll hear. The problem is, most people just regurgitate it without actually knowing what is meant by it.

As anyone who has worked in marketing and advertising would know, if it’s clear you want something from someone, you’ll repel them. You can’t just go up to random people and try to sell them something, because they’ll reject it even if it’s something they want, you have to found out if it’s something they actually need and help them find out.

Then, you need to slowly move through the stages (I actually practice something that looks like a sales funnel when it comes to women) to get to where you want.

People want to buy, they don’t want to be sold to.

And it’s very similar with game. If you have nothing going for you in your life, and I’m not talking about going to the gym or making 120k, I’m talking about actually having a path in your life which brings you joy and fulfilment, then getting laid will most likely fill that hole, and that’s not a good place to be.

This will make some men desperate and most people can smell this from a mile away, or worse still, if they eventually do become good at game, it’ll easily become their life, and all they’ll do is game, day in - day out, thinking they’ve reached the pinnacle of life.

Having fulfilment and enjoyment outside of women, will prevent you from needing women to fill that hole, but you can want them.
  • Some men feel uneasy if the women they’re with go out without them and enjoy themselves.
  • Some men feel jealous if the woman they were trying to get with chooses someone else.
  • Some men base their whole worth on whether women find them attractive or not.
Most of this can be managed if you have joy and fulfilment in life outside of women, this originally meant “working on yourself”.
 

anonymous12345

Don Juan
Joined
Dec 23, 2021
Messages
182
Reaction score
62
Age
37
Location
Sweden
Frequent relocations have a way of destroying social circles. I had multiple relocations prior to the end of high school and some as an adult too. I never had a social circle to rely upon for arranging dates at any point in my life. My options have either been to cold approach or to use dating websites (pre-2012) or swipe apps (2012-present). When confronted with those two choices, approaching strangers in person is the better choice.

It doesn't matter how much I work on myself. I think self-improvement efforts are a good thing but meaningless unless you make the approaches or somehow develop a social circle capable of arranging dates for you. Both paths are challenging.
I could have written all this about me, it's just as applicable. Haven't heard about sigma males before; yeah, sounds like me too.
 
Last edited:

Jesse Pinkman

Master Don Juan
Joined
Mar 24, 2022
Messages
561
Reaction score
618
Bringing it all back, just so everyone got my point because it is worth summarizing.

1. Prioritize on improving yourself. Get in good shape, get a nice paying job, get good logistics, and learn social skills.

2. Do not expect number 1 to be even nearly enough to score hot girls, it is the bare minimum.

3. Once you get 1 handled, dedicate time solely to getting good at game and getting laid, ideally by moving to a big city.

4. Do not think for one second that without 3, you will ever get good with women or get hot girls, at least not regularly.
 

DEEZEDBRAH

Master Don Juan
Joined
Dec 24, 2017
Messages
6,038
Reaction score
4,763
Age
31
Bringing it all back, just so everyone got my point because it is worth summarizing.

1. Prioritize on improving yourself. Get in good shape, get a nice paying job, get good logistics, and learn social skills.
This above is a necessity for 99%. There are fellas like canjun keys to the vip and off the old mystery forums. Broke. Couch surfing. Not good job. Has 2/3 handled. Likely in his 40s now. Outlook can't be good if he hasn't evolved. Curious how long a nomad or dude off the grid could survive and playboy it up?

2. Do not expect number 1 to be even nearly enough to score hot girls, it is the bare minimum.
I know several guys who fall into the got game and plow everything arena. I'd argue it's a lot easier late 90s or early 2000s then today. Modern women are entitled as f and of the lowest caliber in history. Only fans and sugar babies, ran through, abortions, boss girl rhetoric, 0 value added, and the following is majority fall into this one way or another. Men are actually pursuing this?

3. Once you get 1 handled, dedicate time solely to getting good at game and getting laid, ideally by moving to a big city.
Yeah. Then again I rather do pickup in Phenix versus Miami. I rather go to ibiza or cancun over a lot of larger cities. NYC, London, LA, etc are volume and tourists are everywhere. I'm preferring more niche places but that's coming out of the London model and scene. Maybe I'm jaded.

4. Do not think for one second that without 3, you will ever get good with women or get hot girls, at least not regularly.
I think you can blow out a small city fairly easily and get a rep. Would recommend that a guy starts away from home and fumble away from your neck of the woods. Evolve as you get better. @SW15 sniper approach once calibrated and you've done the work.

I'd take cold approach over OLD any day. OLD is too passive. It promotes spectator mode and inaction. Obv utilize everything.
 
Top