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Why "working on yourself" outside of game, on its own, isn't going to get you lots of women.

Jesse Pinkman

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Recently, I posted a daygame thread and a piece of advice got a lot of traction. I asked about daygaming and someone came in saying that if you just "work on yourself" by having a nice body, a nice career, and building a "badass life", then you will never have to do "daygame". I've seen this kind of advice floated around a lot and wanted to give it attention based on personal experience so young guys do not get misled, like I did. Now I am sure we have all heard of the story of guys who make a nice salary, aren't in bad shape, and still after all of that struggle with women and dating. For a while, I fit that mold too (college educated from a nice school, in decent shape, higher than average salary in my twenties, etc.).

My reality being the guy who "worked on himself".

I was "interesting", worldly, had a lot of friends, a nice career, and you name it. The truth is I looked down on "daygame" and "those creepy guys" who approached women at bars and nightclubs. I was around a lot of guys who were in the same exact spot as well and living in a big city. What was the reality for most of these men and even their 30-something counterparts? Mostly tied down to mediocre social circles full of super hypergamous women looking to lock them down. I'd say a vast majority ended up with women less attractive than them for an LTR.

We'd talk amongst us about how that next promotion or that cool car was going to get us girls. The vast majority of the men I was around were enslaved to women in their immediate circles and too cowardly to venture out. They heard the same things you hear.

"Game is for creepy guys with no lives"

"Just work on yourself and the women will come"

"Why would you spend hours of your day chasing women? Let them come to you"


Most of these guys, despite potential, lived their lives being true American normies. They drowned themselves in beer while rooting for sports teams. They played golf on weekends to try and impress their higher ups at the company. They went to Brunch to pay for overpriced eggs and gossip with your typical American Manatee. They declined severely before settling into an LTR and most are unhappy. Some stayed fit and dated girls below their league.

Now am I saying be a bum and harass women?

Clearly, guys like sexual harasser in chief Sasha (watch his videos, he is awful) and the Toronto Mall Pickup Artists embody the other end of the scale. The guys who don't have their lives together, don't have a job, are living with their parents while doing unproductive things like playing videogames all day, just bother women at malls at the time, yeah I don't want you to be that guy.

The thread said on its own.

You should want to be in good shape because you want to live longer, feel better, and avoid health complications down the line.

You should want a nice career or a way to make lots of money because it allows you to live in the nicest areas and have good logistics.

You should want to have hobbies because it makes you interesting and gives your life some sort of meaning.

But don't do them to get women because you won't.

Unless your hobby is DJing at a hot nightclub or photographing models, because you genuinely like those things even when women are not involved, you won't necessarily up your notch count. Same with lifestyle choices that people talk about, I hate to break it to you but most of you will not even come close to being a Dan Bilzerian type of a guy. The amount of luck, effort, and resources required will be out of this world for the vast majority of you.

If you missed my point, "working on yourself" is the bare requirement kind of like needing to be fit in order to play in the English Premier League. Being fit and knowing how to dribble a soccer ball on its own isn't going to get you a spot at Liverpool.

In order to get a lot of women, you have to put in the work or "learn game" as some people say.

Ever wonder why the average guy in his life sleeps with maybe 7 different women? Well, this is why. No one wants to admit it but just like getting really good at playing an instrument or climbing to highs in your career, getting with a lot of different women is also a skill. Sure, some guys might luck out with a lifestyle like Hugh Hefner or Dan Bilzerian but those guys are not that common and often have a lot of wealth, luck, and factors outside of their control going in their favor.

If you have exceptional looks, like male-model tier, and somewhat low standards then you can go the online dating route.

However, if you genuinely want to get that high notch count, you have to put in the work.

It can mean going out to clubs and bars a lot although I have mostly transitioned out of nightlife. For some, it means doing a lot of focused daygame outside of your working hours. Yeah it is a lot of work and more work than most men are willing to take on but for the most part, outside of dating apps, it is the only real way.

It's tough, your ego will take a beating, you will get rejected about 90% of the time, your "friends" who are spending their Saturdays chugging beer over a football game will judge the life out of you for it, but it is the only realistic way to get lots of women. This is why it is so tough and why most men don't ever become the guys getting around.
 

Steno

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It won't get you the women but it will make it exponentially easier to do so. You will have better logistics and better mental health overall, plus it will give you longevity in the game. The older you get the more you need to take care of all areas of your life.
 

Jesse Pinkman

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It won't get you the women but it will make it exponentially easier to do so. You will have better logistics and better mental health overall, plus it will give you longevity in the game. The older you get the more you need to take care of all areas of your life.
Even with better health and better logistics, you have to talk to them as women will rarely approach you.

I don't even mean talk to them as you go about your day either because that is too passive. You have to take an active role into wanting to be good at game.

As I said and I am sure you read in the thread, working on yourself is the bare minimum.
 

Steno

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Even with better health and better logistics, you have to talk to them as women will rarely approach you.

I don't even mean talk to them as you go about your day either because that is too passive. You have to take an active role into wanting to be good at game.

As I said and I am sure you read in the thread, working on yourself is the bare minimum.
I agree, all I am saying is that in my opinion you might be under appreciating the benefits that working on yourself has. They are mostly for your own sanity and happiness but that is a lot more important than getting women. Nowadays I feel like men have to be on a extreme level for the benefits of "working on yourself" make a substantial difference, being fit or making 120k a year isn't good enough to make you stand out. You need to be Dwyane Johnson jacked, and have enough money to live an extravagant lifestyle in order for it to actually make a difference.

But it works in reverse too, if you are too broke to have your own place or if your a chubby out of shape dude then you will get NOWHERE. Unless you are a chad then being fit and financially stable is like the bare minimum to get your foot in the door, which sucks but its better than nothing.
 

Jesse Pinkman

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I agree, all I am saying is that in my opinion you might be under appreciating the benefits that working on yourself has. They are mostly for your own sanity and happiness but that is a lot more important than getting women. Nowadays I feel like men have to be on a extreme level for the benefits of "working on yourself" make a substantial difference, being fit or making 120k a year isn't good enough to make you stand out. You need to be Dwyane Johnson jacked, and have enough money to live an extravagant lifestyle in order for it to actually make a difference.

But it works in reverse too, if you are too broke to have your own place or if your a chubby out of shape dude then you will get NOWHERE. Unless you are a chad then being fit and financially stable is like the bare minimum to get your foot in the door, which sucks but its better than nothing.
I am actually not, I said that it is the bare minimum for a reason. If I didn't get my finances and career in check, I would not be able to live in a Miami or an NYC, I'd be stuck living with my parents in the middle of nowhere. Yet my point is that on their own, these are not enough and guys who say nonsense like "just work on yourself and the women will come" are largely out of touch no matter how well-intentioned their advice is. If you want to get women, you have to put in the work and guys hate hearing this.
 

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Jake_Gyllenhaal69

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It’s just another casualty from early PUA marketing tactics. The truth is that you can be a complete bum and still get laid. The guys that get laid a lot know the types of girls they can attract and act on it. Now, if you want some Bachelor degree or higher Stacy living in Manhattan then yes, being a bum is going to work against you. However, if you are some bum Ray Ray and Pookie that chases crack addicts/hood rats then you don’t need money or shvt. The dating market rewards the bottom and top value men much more than guys in the midgle
 
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FlexpertHamilton

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The problem is that guys "work on themselves" ultimately for women, not for themselves, which is a sinister form of simping. It's the same as women who dress like sluts at the gym and claim it's "for themselves" - it's a feminine mindset to do anything for women's approval.

You should only do things that you enjoy. For instance I bought a dual sport motorcycle as my sole transportation method knowing full well that most women in actuality have zero interest in motorcycles and do not want to ride one. I didn't opt to buy a German made car I couldn't afford just for the status and comfort it provides them.

Richard Cooper and others talk about this a lot and while it's true that women are more attracted to you if you're on your path and whatnot, at the end of the day game is absolutely paramount, you cannot escape it.
 
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SW15

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If you are a guy who has "worked on yourself" and happen to live in the same geographical area for the entirety of your life (thank your parents for not relocating you during K-12!), you might be able to get away with "build it & they will come". You'll need a strong social circle to pull it off. I've seen it happen before. I wouldn't plan a life around being one of those exceptions.

The best way to get an extended girlfriend is through a quality social circle. If you are SOL and don't have a quality social circle, you'll need to do some sort of in-person approaching to get sexual options. Those sexual options could be either an extended girlfriend or multiple casual sex partners.

It’s just another casualty from early PUA marketing tactics. The truth is that you can be a complete bum and still get laid. The guys that get laid a lot know the types of girls they can attract and act on it. Now, if you want some college degree Paralegal Stacy living in Manhattan then yes, being a bum is going to work against you. However, if you are some bum Ray Ray and Pookie that chases crack addicts/hood rats then you don’t need money or shvt. The dating market rewards the bottom and top value men much more than guys in the midgle
Most women with college degrees are not chasing paralegal type work. Paralegals don't get paid enough to live in Manhattan. With that said, paralegals are very dateable women as they either have an associate level degree or a non-prestigious bachelor's degree. The women with college degrees in Manhattan or other big cities are chasing higher paying and more demanding white collar careers.

I agree that the dating market rewards the bottom and top value men the most.

You either want to play tattooed dirtbag game or high value man game.
 
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Jake_Gyllenhaal69

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Most women with college degrees are not chasing paralegal type work. Paralegals don't get paid enough to live in Manhattan. With that said, paralegals are very dateable women as they either have an associate level degree or a non-prestigious bachelor's degree. The women with college degrees in Manhattan or other big cities are chasing higher paying and more demanding white collar careers.
ill change it lol. Tbh I just randomly threw something on the wall.
 

DEEZEDBRAH

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If you are a guy who has "worked on yourself" and happen to live in the same geographical area for the entirety of your life (thank your parents for not relocating you during K-12!), you might be able to get away with "build it & they will come". You'll need a strong social circle to pull it off. I've seen it happen before. I wouldn't plan a life around being one of those exceptions.

The best way to get an extended girlfriend is through a quality social circle. If you are SOL and don't have a quality social circle, you'll need to do some sort of in-person approaching to get sexual options. Those sexual options could be either an extended girlfriend or multiple casual sex partners.
+1

Agreed. Had many circles implode growing up. My father in biz and relocation being common practice. A positive was becoming comfortable in my skin. The norm was approaching new people. Make new friends. This was a common place for me being. No social circle and long distance rekts the best of relationships be it friendship or intimate. The following aided me in reading people and in sales. First off learning to sell myself. Sort of a blessing in disguise.

You nailed it. Cold approach is a great equalizer for the lack thereof in k-12 friends. Social circle wasn't a common place for me meeting and dating. The bonus being it kept me from rekt social circles. Ironically enough, they all implode sooner or later. Career, play house, kids, life???
 

Gamisch

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I am actually not, I said that it is the bare minimum for a reason. If I didn't get my finances and career in check, I would not be able to live in a Miami or an NYC, I'd be stuck living with my parents in the middle of nowhere. Yet my point is that on their own, these are not enough and guys who say nonsense like "just work on yourself and the women will come" are largely out of touch no matter how well-intentioned their advice is. If you want to get women, you have to put in the work and guys hate hearing this.
This advice is hardwired and passed on from the previous generation of men. You just had to "work"(and be a regular at a bar or pub) and be able to support a family. Nowadays added "on yourself" , imo to distract men from the sad state most are in.

I understand what @Steno tries to say. I wanna add to that that when you do work on yourself you'll at least be as ready as possible when you get whatever type of relationship with a woman. Nothing is worse then hitting the gym after you caught one in your web.

But yeah OP, a man indeed must at least be busy trying to get women. I see way too many men waiting , wasting their prime bc they still believe someday a good woman will fall out of the sky into their arms . Meanwhile they are losing their ability to chat up a woman . And even when they finally manage to somehow get one, it's for a short period of time , increasing their disbelief in love and their fear of rejection.
By "working on themselves " ,they at least keep the hope they have some kinda control ( and still dont have to take any risk) , and someday their new mommy will arrive.

Sad really.
 
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SW15

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Cold approach is a great equalizer for the lack thereof in k-12 friends. Social circle wasn't a common place for me meeting and dating. The bonus being it kept me from rekt social circles. Ironically enough, they all implode sooner or later. Career, play house, kids, life???
Frequent relocations have a way of destroying social circles. I had multiple relocations prior to the end of high school and some as an adult too. I never had a social circle to rely upon for arranging dates at any point in my life. My options have either been to cold approach or to use dating websites (pre-2012) or swipe apps (2012-present). When confronted with those two choices, approaching strangers in person is the better choice.

It doesn't matter how much I work on myself. I think self-improvement efforts are a good thing but meaningless unless you make the approaches or somehow develop a social circle capable of arranging dates for you. Both paths are challenging.
 

LARaiders85

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The problem is that guys "work on themselves" ultimately for women, not for themselves, which is a sinister form of simping. It's the same as women who dress like sluts at the gym and claim it's "for themselves" - it's a feminine mindset to do anything for women's approval.

You should only do things that you enjoy. For instance I bought a dual sport motorcycle as my sole transportation method knowing full well that most women in actuality have zero interest in motorcycles and do not want to ride one. I didn't opt to buy a German made car I couldn't afford just for the status and comfort it provides them.

Richard Cooper and others talk about this a lot and while it's true that women are more attracted to you if you're on your path and whatnot, at the end of the day game is absolutely paramount, you cannot escape it.
100% And doing "self improvement" for "you" (them) usually costs an enormous amount of time and money compared to the alternative. Usually it isnt the most efficient use of time to recreate yourself (recreation). You also can't understate how important time is as a factor to game. No free time = no game. No recreation = no game.
 

RBK

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Even with better health and better logistics, you have to talk to them as women will rarely approach you.
Agree with this. I love when guys say "girls give me their number all the time". This doesn't happen without the guy initiating. Women rarely approach men. It's probably happened twice in my life and I'm fairly good looking/fit.
 

Fruitbat

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The depends on your standpoint.

if you’re a fairly together guy and you have zero social skills, then yes, “game” is more important.

We all come at this from different angles. I’ve never had an issue meeting and approaching women. Most the guys you see on these PUA cold approach courses are former nerds who just don’t know how to build rapport.

If you aren’t naturally socially skilled, you will see the difference as actually making an effort.

I am actually at a loss to understand why it’s so controversial to concentrate efforts to building a better life. If it’s the goal purely to get laid, with anyone, as frequently as you can then fine. If that’s your goal, more power to you.

personally I would find engaging in “daygame” cringe AF, but each to their own.

“daygame” is what socially awkward people call normal life for others. You don’t need a specific activity or theory to do it.

it’s like calling sex “c0ckgame”

for those who don’t struggle to find opportunity to go and speak to women, feel free to concentrate on important things.

I know you have a bee in your bonnet about this Pinkman, but as I’ve stated, if it works for you, more power to you. I’m just concerned your previous comments that my advice to build income, build assets and build physique and a life was “terrible advice for any young man”is a bit of an over reaction.

Broke fat losers can approach all they want, the only phone number they are getting is the Samaritans.
 

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LARaiders85

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The depends on your standpoint.

if you’re a fairly together guy and you have zero social skills, then yes, “game” is more important.

We all come at this from different angles. I’ve never had an issue meeting and approaching women. Most the guys you see on these PUA cold approach courses are former nerds who just don’t know how to build rapport.

If you aren’t naturally socially skilled, you will see the difference as actually making an effort.

I am actually at a loss to understand why it’s so controversial to concentrate efforts to building a better life. If it’s the goal purely to get laid, with anyone, as frequently as you can then fine. If that’s your goal, more power to you.

personally I would find engaging in “daygame” cringe AF, but each to their own.

“daygame” is what socially awkward people call normal life for others. You don’t need a specific activity or theory to do it.

it’s like calling sex “c0ckgame”

for those who don’t struggle to find opportunity to go and speak to women, feel free to concentrate on important things.

I know you have a bee in your bonnet about this Pinkman, but as I’ve stated, if it works for you, more power to you. I’m just concerned your previous comments that my advice to build income, build assets and build physique and a life was “terrible advice for any young man”is a bit of an over reaction.

Broke fat losers can approach all they want, the only phone number they are getting is the Samaritans.
a super majority of people here are doing fine in life but lack the social skills, hence his advice. Probably the second largest group are people who dated psychotic women and are looking for answers as to what happened and why.
 

Fruitbat

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a super majority of people here are doing fine in life but lack the social skills, hence his advice. Probably the second largest group are people who dated psychotic women and are looking for answers as to what happened and why.
Ah, ok. I was always fine on the social skills. I came here in the second category.

Main issue for me was being too chubby. So to me it’s keeping in shape.
 

LARaiders85

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Ah, ok. I was always fine on the social skills. I came here in the second category.

Main issue for me was being too chubby. So to me it’s keeping in shape.
I was in both categories, but the second category is what drew me here initially. I had already figured out the physical side of it on my own, as well as enough basic social skills to get me into trouble. There is a huge difference between the basic social skills that most guys have and what I have now though.
 

SW15

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But there is no immediately obvious/measurable way for him to know that his social skills are lacking. So it is very easy to miss or neglect this area.
There are some possible clues on this....

  • Too few first dates, especially if using an offline-only method
  • Too many "one date, no sex, no second date" type interactions
  • Long sexual droughts
 
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