Why The "MGTOW" Movement Has It All Wrong

Amante Silvestre

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I'll be perfectly honest with you, I don't have issues with the most fundamental facets of this "MGTOW" stuff; namely the principle of a man keeping his own best interest and well being at heart in a landscape of 3rd wave feminism, slanted court systems and the like. I have seen and have been subjected to enough crap from women to understand there are legitimate concerns for men to have in these regards.

My big problem with this MGTOW concept, and I see it in every thread here where these issues are discussed, is that it is all driven by a fundamental resentment toward women in some fashion. It comes from a place where it is as if there is a war to be waged and won. It comes from a place in which blame is bestowed upon the "fairer sex" in some way, shape or form.

I see it in the statements men make everywhere, even when they claim not to be entirely bitter and that they still maintain some hope.

"Never met a single decent woman...
I do believe there are good women out there...
[the good ones] are all taken....
the ones that aren't [taken] are so rare....
they might as well be unicorns...."

Behind all of these statements, there is a fundamental desire in a man that remains unfulfilled. All men want to be able to trust a woman. All men want to be taken care of by a "good woman". All men would like to experienced being loved by someone. All men have some inner desire that can be fulfilled by a "decent woman", a "good" woman, a "unicorn" as it might be.

And that is the major flaw of MGTOW: it lays the blame at the feet of women for not possessing the standard model of what an "ideal" woman should be in so that a man's desires (whatever they might be) can be fulfilled.

These are NOT men "going their own way".

These are men taking their ball and going home because they aren't getting their way.

These are men who do not know how to properly assess a woman's positive capabilities and flaws in such a way that they can then regulate these women to a role in a man's own life in a way that will serve him, but is not truly needed. Instead, these men are looking for that "good, decent, unicorn-ish" type who can fulfill whatever needs he has and will not fail him.... which is an entirely unrealistic view but is required to protect and sustain a need/desire.

You must expect women to fail you.
You must expect things to change.
You must expect women to be unable to continue fulfilling whatever need or desire you seek them out for to begin with.

There is a VAST DIFFERENCE in allowing a woman to fulfill certain needs and desires and depending on one to do the same. The latter requires a woman to be "good, decent and unicorn-ish", because these traits are more likely to stave off failure. A man must find a woman of this great ideal to protect himself.

But the former.... totally different game. It is a completely different mindset. When you allow a woman to serve particular needs, needs that you can find in any women, or needs in which even you can provide for yourself.. well then.... you will know exactly how to allow a woman to play a role in your life and to what extent. Even if a woman fails, you are a man who will often come out ahead, or at worst break even. And it is in this light, that a man no longer requires women to fulfill an unrealistic list of qualities. You will begin to look at women as they actually are and what they are actually capable of and what they are not, like chess pieces. Each has a particular capability and limitation. Each can play a significant role at any given time that can lead to victory.

These "MGTOW" men want that Queen piece, and are bitter that so few can be found. They believe the game can only be won if they have one, otherwise they might as well not play at all.

I am a man who has won many actual games of chess without ever moving my Queen. I know how to use the strengths of every piece at my disposal, even the pawn, which is often critical to any chess strategy.

THAT is the difference between a "man going his own way" and MGTOW. They aren't the same.

I can provide several examples of how I practice what I preach here, but this post is already long enough. I can share this later on.
 
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stormrider

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It seems like MTGTOW is the polar opposite of the PUA lifestyle. Both lacks balance. PUA's throw their lives away to pursue women. And MTGTOW throw women away to pursue a life (but what kind of life is being celibate?).

I think if you just combine the two, there would be more balance. Pursue self development and personal greatness, offer your value to the world, and at the same time, develop a social life where you have an ecosystem of women coming in.

I would imagine this would make any guy "normal" and more "healthy." If you go to either extremes, there's going to be some kind of imbalance and it's going to manifest in unhealthy ways, like hating women and rationalizing it. Or even the opposite - guys being against pursuing purpose in life because they don't believe it gets girls.

A real man is complete in all facets. He doesn't run away from challenges, cope, or rationalize. He just does what is necessary. He has no choice. It's either he achieves dominion over his environment or he will never feel completely empowered. And if you are a man who is honest with yourself, you would want "successex" across the board, not just in one area.
 
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rando5495

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The mgtow movement was fine like 3 or 4 years ago. I was on the best of terms with a few of it's most prominent and legendary members for goodness sakes. Everything was about pragmatism.

It's literally a scene for male hamstering now. Got no patience for it, and anyone can surpass it, even a 14 year old, in about 2 months of effort.

Seems to loom large in the American scene though, no? When did Amante ever give a f.uck about mgtows? It's like babysitting.
 

Xenom0rph

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And that is the major flaw of MGTOW: it lays the blame at the feet of women for not possessing the standard model of what an "ideal" woman should be in so that a man's desires (whatever they might be) can be fulfilled.

Wait,..... Men should be chastised for having expectations of women, but women having expectations of men are okay....?????

This type of nonsense is what led to the great imbalance in SMV between males and females....

Hence the phenomena of land-whales thinking they're entitled to a 6'3" blond haired blue eyed Super Chad....

Any man of quality would absolutely have expectations that a lady should behave like lady otherwise we will take our nuts and our kawk somewhere else....

Like it or not, MGTOW encourages men to stop being so d@mn thirsty....

If most guys would stop being thirsty then the SMV imbalance might return to equilibrium....
 
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Spaz

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I'm in complete agreement with Amante.

I saw the MGTOW forum link he gave out.

Decided to take a peek, randomly opened 3 threads, read it and it's all just hate.

Women hating and it left me with a bad taste in my mouth.

Men's forums are supposed to be breeding grounds for attaining greatness and not a breeding ground for extremism.

Once extremism takes root in a man's mind, it will start off with hate postings and might then snowball into actually acting on those hate often with negative repercussions to himself and others around him.
 

Xenom0rph

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The trade unionists of the sexual market place.
Women have unionized via Instagram, feminism, divorce court favoritism......

Men must counter this by not offering free validation which artificially inflates a woman's SMV....

Look, if dating dynamics were Geo-politics, women would be classified as a "currency manipulator" like the Chinese Communist Party ....
 
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rando5495

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Women have unionized via Instagram, feminism, divorce court favoritism......

Men must counter this by not offering free validation which artificially inflates a woman's SMV....

Look, if dating dynamics were Geo-politics, women would be classified as a "currency manipulator" like the Chinese Communust Party ....
For a start, you are coming from a position of being an altruist. And that's utter bullsh1t.

Secondly, I have done well over the last 5 years, and don't need a radical shift in the marketplace tbh.

It's called having a brain and having a scrote.

And what government is the communist party? Ours certainly isn't. If bloody Canada wants to be quirky, let them. Feminism is just a sh1t test, as is mgtow to be honest. Sorts the wheat from the chaff. Such is life.
 

Epic Days

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It’s full of men who are still angry. I just bypass it. I’m not in that world.

I agree with @stormrider as well. PUAs are just the complete inverse as far as interactions with women but are the same flavor. Both are throwing away time and energy better spent.
 
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Atom Smasher

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In my view, it boils down to a fundamental principle: Men need to manage their women and manage their relationships.

Men tend to think that a relationship is what it is, and they accept that passively. In fact, however, it is his job to take the raw material (a woman) and fashion a relationship that serves both him and her out of it.

We are responsible for all of our relationships, especially with a woman in a close relationship. Women are malleable and can and will conform to the shape of a man if he decides to manage and take responsibility for his relationships.
 

Xenom0rph

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It seems like MTGTOW is the polar opposite of the PUA lifestyle. Both lacks balance. PUA's throw their lives away to pursue women. And MTGTOW throw women away to pursue a life (but what kind of life is being celibate?).
But that's the silver lining: when a man focuses on himself financially and physically, when he pursues passions, women naturally gravitate towards him....

Self improvement, self awareness, pursuing passions is the core message of MGTOW and the key to success.... Women are a by product of success...

Also, "throw away" is inaccurate, "not focus" and "not being preoccupied" by women would be more accurate.
 

stormrider

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But that's the silver lining: when a man focuses on himself financially and physically, when he pursues passions, women naturally gravitate towards him....

Self improvement, self awareness, pursuing passions is the core message of MGTOW and the key to success.... Women are a by product of success...

Also, "throw away" is inaccurate, "not focus" and "not being preoccupied" by women would be more accurate.

Believe me I am all for purpose, passion, and self development. And if this is your definition of MTGTOW then I have no problems with it at all.

I was more or less talking about the resentful copers/rationalizers.
 

Amante Silvestre

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Believe me I am all for purpose, passion, and self development. And if this is your definition of MTGTOW then I have no problems with it at all.

I was more or less talking about the resentful copers/rationalizers.
He is the perfect example of what I am talking about.

He blankets himself with the righteousness of this “purpose”, but he does so because of resentments, which are peppered throughout every one of his writings.

I can do what these “mgtow” guys are doing while also adoring and enjoying women while seldom speaking I’ll of them.
 

stormrider

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He is the perfect example of what I am talking about.

He blankets himself with the righteousness of this “purpose”, but he does so because of resentments, which are peppered throughout every one of his writings.

I can do what these “mgtow” guys are doing while also adoring and enjoying women while seldom speaking I’ll of them.
Yeah I don't believe in extremes either. I mean, it's not really that hard to maintain an ecosystem of women, lol. All I do is go to fitness classes over the weekends, some social events, and next thing you know, I've infiltrated another social circle with women in it. I can do it in my sleep at this point.

But I also pursue purpose and passion during the week.

So I guess I kind of agree with you too. There is no time where women are too much of a distraction unless you have no discipline.
 
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AttackFormation

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But that's the silver lining: when a man focuses on himself financially and physically, when he pursues passions, women naturally gravitate towards him....

Self improvement, self awareness, pursuing passions is the core message of MGTOW and the key to success.... Women are a by product of success...

Also, "throw away" is inaccurate, "not focus" and "not being preoccupied" by women would be more accurate.
No... women don't "naturally gravitate towards him", that's the downfall of the "self-improvement" cult which I increasingly regard as blue pilled.

He needs to have the prerequisites. He needs to be good looking, and he needs to be in proximity to attractive, single women with the basic social skill to interact with them. If you work on yourself physically but you aren't handsome, or you are fit and handsome but aren't around enough women or have some social impediment or blind spot, then your expectation of getting women won't work. If you pursue your passions but they don't have any women in them, or women don't care about them, then your expectations of getting women won't work. Same thing with finances, if you work 25/8 and/or don't have an ecosystem of women, or you're not good looking, and/or you expected women to genuinely desire you since you have money, then your money solving your expectations won't work.

What happens when guys do what someone else told them to do to fulfill their expectations, and it doesn't work? bitterness and spite. And this brings me to what I wanted to add in general when I read your first post in this thread, and what I think is the core of AS's message. Don't set expectations of an idealized reality. Accept and work with what reality is. Be at peace.
 
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rando5495

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No... women don't "naturally gravitate towards him", that's the downfall of the "self-improvement" cult which I increasingly regard as blue pilled.
Interesting that you think it "blue pilled".

I offer a different aspect for consideration: I have considered it cultural. Serious.

Think of it this way, I have never ever seen on an English forum such an emphasis of 'hitting the gym'. And I don't mean to be offensive here, but the vast vast majority of people I know are not overweight, so maybe that's a thing?

Also, in Los Angeles, they are into Buddhism and stuff. It does gradually make it's way into different cultures over the span of decades.

Not kidding when I once used to joke that "I could turn Harri Krishna into a bad boy". That was based off of the original game grand theft auto, where it was a joke.... but this sh1t now seems serious over the states.


 

Poonani Maker

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Basically selfimprovement is paramount to getting laid cause you must be strong so mindstrong to navigate your social endeavors and fighting shape strong should civility go south do to jealous competitors. You can only say anything you want in a social endeavor if you’re confident, you can only be confident if you exercise your mind gaining knowledge through books and by having the ability to defend yourself, your OPINION if you must by training you mind and body in hand to hand combat. You do not want to die because of woman, but to defend you own ideas and thoughts and speech out in public, yes.
 

Xenom0rph

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No... women don't "naturally gravitate towards him", that's the downfall of the "self-improvement" cult which I increasingly regard as blue pilled.

He needs to have the prerequisites. He needs to be good looking, and he needs to be in proximity to attractive, single women with the basic social skill to interact with them. If you work on yourself physically but you aren't handsome, or you are fit and handsome but aren't around enough women or have some social impediment or blind spot, then your expectation of getting women won't work. If you pursue your passions but they don't have any women in them, or women don't care about them, then your expectations of getting women won't work. Same thing with finances, if you work 25/8 and/or don't have an ecosystem of women, or you're not good looking, and/or you expected women to genuinely desire you since you have money, then your money solving your expectations won't work.

What happens when guys do what someone else told them to do to fulfill their expectations, and it doesn't work? bitterness and spite. And this brings me to what I wanted to add in general when I read your first post in this thread, and what I think is the core of AS's message. Don't set expectations of an idealized reality. Accept and work with what reality is. Be at peace.
There is truth to what you wrote. MGTOW guys advocate self improvement but we also temper it with some brutal truth:

Looks, Money and Status.

There will always be natural limits to a man's looks such as height and face.

There will always be limiting factors to a man's wealth such as his access to quality education.

As i mentioned in another thread, even if a guy maxes out his L.M.S. it still doesnt gaurantee relationship success but it does imorove rhe odds..

Bear in mind also that women are not the primary goal of MGTOW, self improvement is for yourself and only your own personal benefit....women may (or might not be) a by product...
 

AttackFormation

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Interesting that you think it "blue pilled".

I offer a different aspect for consideration: I have considered it cultural. Serious.

Think of it this way, I have never ever seen on an English forum such an emphasis of 'hitting the gym'. And I don't mean to be offensive here, but the vast vast majority of people I know are not overweight, so maybe that's a thing?

Also, in Los Angeles, they are into Buddhism and stuff. It does gradually make it's way into different cultures over the span of decades.

Not kidding when I once used to joke that "I could turn Harri Krishna into a bad boy". That was based off of the original game grand theft auto, where it was a joke.... but this sh1t now seems serious over the states.


Funky music in that one dude, I want that song.

I'm (as usual, lol) not entirely sure what the concrete point or conclusion of your post is, but I agree that hitting the gym does probably make more of a difference in America especially depending on region. America is significantly more overweight than the UK, and the UK is significantly more overweight than Sweden. In Stockholm where I am, being fit or just slim by american standards is nothing at all remarkable.


There is truth to what you wrote. MGTOW guys advocate self improvement but we also temper it with some brutal truth:

Looks, Money and Status.

There will always be natural limits to a man's looks such as height and face.

There will always be limiting factors to a man's wealth such as his access to quality education.

As i mentioned in another thread, even if a guy maxes out his L.M.S. it still doesnt gaurantee relationship success but it does imorove rhe odds..

Bear in mind also that women are not the primary goal of MGTOW, self improvement is for yourself and only your own personal benefit....women may (or might not be) a by product...
Okay, but then you needed to phrase it differently than "self-improvement makes women gravitate to you" from the start (just saying, I'm not trying to sound like an @sshole).
 
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