Why I hate online dating

Slowhandluke

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This is accurate. The fundamental premise remains, but this model is being challenged.

Men work, provide, and pursue.

Men are still pursuing more than ever. I believe men are now having to put more effort into pursuing than ever before.

Pursuing does look different now than it did in the past for men.

In the 2010s-2020s, pursuing has shifted more towards tech-based methods. More of pursuance occurs on swipe apps and social media platforms than ever. A lot of men like the idea of being able to sit at home in more comfortable clothing and pursue from behind an electronic screen with swiping and sending text-based messages. From the 1970s-2000s, when men wanted to pursue when lacking social circle introductions, it looked and felt different. Men would have to leave their homes, get dressed and look presentable, drive/take public transportation, park a car (if driving), and often spend money in a nightlife venues (and sometimes in a non-bar effort). That feels like a lot more effort, though the inefficiencies of tech-based dating for most men make the older school way less of an effort. There's an illusion of efficiency in sitting at home, swiping, and sending text-based messages. The problem is that response rates are so low for most men. When most men use swipe apps, they typically get matches on less than 1% of their right swipes. Even with their matches, few turn into dates. It's inefficient. However, for the 90th percentile + of men, the amount of matches and first dates they can get from swipe apps exceeds what they could get solely from real life efforts. For them, the efficiency is real and not an illusion. Additionally, sending DMs on Instagram is only more efficient and effective for a small percentage of men.

The male whose SMV is based primarily around providing is nearly extinct in the United States (likely true in other Western nations too). There's not much of a need for a provider male anymore with women having more education and working opportunities. When women had few working opportunities, the provider male had value to a woman. Now, women have both education and working opportunities or government benefits to replace any value that a provider male would have had in the past.

There are statistics that fewer prime age working men (25-54 years old) are actually working. Many 25-54 year old men have dropped out of the work force due to a lack of sex. Why bother to work if the pursuance of vagina isn't going well? Although the basement dwelling Millennial/Gen Z lower tier beta/omega exists and has grown in size, it is still a smaller subset of men. The typical man still works to live and works in order to try to attract women. In real life, this is the run of the mill beta male who struggles to attention from women. Every white collar office with more than a handful of employees has at least one of these betas. Some of these betas can be found in more blue collar/manual labor jobs too.



The birth control pill and feminism have changed how women behave in life. This ended up changing the mating market as a whole.

Second Wave Feminism (1960s-1980s era feminism thought) and the birth control pill emerged around the same time but didn't have immediate impact. The changes were longer term and gradual. Women also started to pursue higher education and careers more, as I'll get into below. Both Second Wave Feminism and birth control affected this.

Before the birth control pill, women could not managed their own birth control. Male condoms existed prior to the birth control pill's invention in 1960. Other birth control options have become available to women besides the hormonal birth control pill.

The mentality that women have around their use of birth control was different in the 1960s-1970s than it has been in recent decades. In the earlier days, birth control was less of a motivator for promiscuity that it has been recently. Women were still getting married earlier in life and had more modest partner counts in those days. Birth control was utilized as a shorter term solution for a woman who did intend to have a monogamous marriage with children. In the late 1960s-1970s, there was a small percentage of women was promiscuous and into the "free love" concept, but that was less of the norm. Even in the 1970s, 10-20 years after the invention of the birth control pill, most women were getting married around ages 21-24 with less than 2 sexual partners. That isn't happening now.

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Second Wave Feminism promoted female independence. Independence was to be achieved through white collar careers. More and more women started getting bachelor's and advanced degrees so that they wouldn't need to depend on any one male. Over time, this postponed marriages and reduced female fertility. While women were postponing marriages, they weren't postponing sex. Women decided to still have sex but in less committed arrangements before an eventual marriage. These less committed arrangements did create the reality of increased lifetime partner counts, both for women who eventually married and for women that never married.
yes... and it's basically all women's fault. men may have created the pill, the environment where women can be independent, etc.. but ultimately women took what men as a whole gave them and decided they only want the best men.. western women are facing consequences of this... so be it :) there isn't enough attractive, wealthy men to go arround... especially for LTR... maybe for casual serial dating, but most women don't want that.
 

SW15

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it's basically all women's fault. men may have created the pill, the environment where women can be independent, etc.. but ultimately women took what men as a whole gave them and decided they only want the best men.. western women are facing consequences of this... so be it :) there isn't enough attractive, wealthy men to go arround... especially for LTR... maybe for casual serial dating, but most women don't want that.
Women are seeking top tier men now more than ever. Millennial and Gen Z women believe that they are entitled to a top tier man.

Rollo Tomassi has been saying in recent years that "average women are not interested in average men". In the past, mid-range women and mid-range men used to pair up. Now, mid-range women would rather seek alpha or sigma men and only have shorter term casual sex with them instead of a committed longer term relationship with a mid-range man.

The typical mid-range man is ignored on dating apps. Real life approaching can be a little bit better for them but is a rather difficult path as well.

There's little incentive for a top tier man to be monogamous. However, if he's going to be monogamous, it would be with an elite looking woman who might offer something on the personality side that might persist after she's 40 and loses her looks.
 

Solomon

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Matched with some chick on Hinge. I'm 47 and she is 41. She is out of state visiting her parents and asked if she could call me (we've been texting a couple of days)

She is already being aggressive (turn off) and the whole 30 minutes she was just talking about herself and I felt like her therapist. I finally had to cut her off and told her I had to make lunch.

This has happened a few other times with online women

Atleast when you meet somebody off dating sites, you know there is an attraction right off the bat.

I would so rather meet somebody in person, hate this online nonsense.
Another thing be careful of women 35+ who are crazy, yes some of them are hot but these women tend to try to snare you in with sexy unsolicited selfies or even nudes. Telling you all the freaky stuff you like to hear if you first meet a woman in person or OLD and she tells you "I'm crazy but in a good way" only believe she is crazy but in a bad way

Trust me I've dodged a couple bullets just by paying attention to what a woman says on the phone or via text saving myself time avoiding dates lotta hot older women out there but some are nuts
 
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Telling you all the freaky stuff you like to hear if you first meet a woman in person or OLD and she tells you "I'm crazy but in a good way" only believe she is crazy but in a bad way
I'm bad in a crazy way, but I only looked for rope bunnies, so....
 
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Gotta be careful even on Kink based apps there are lot of crazy women too, gotta vet them properly and decide the type of level you're willing to deal with
I counsel C-PTSD women, I can handle crazier than most. But I do evaluate them beforehand so I don't risk my current life situation.
 

BackInTheGame78

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Aggressive in what way?

Normally it's a good sign she is talking about herself.

Sounds like you need to be better at learning how to steer the conversation properly to where you want it to go and the topics you want to discuss.

Change the subject. Cut her off and tell her we can get back to that in a minute, but first I want to know about x,y,z.

You are a man. Lead. Leading isn't only for dates, it's for any interaction. Failing to lead ends up putting you in this situation.
 

BaronOfHair

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Women are seeking top tier men now more than ever. Millennial and Gen Z women believe that they are entitled to a top tier man.

Rollo Tomassi has been saying in recent years that "average women are not interested in average men". In the past, mid-range women and mid-range men used to pair up. Now, mid-range women would rather seek alpha or sigma men and only have shorter term casual sex with them instead of a committed longer term relationship with a mid-range man

Many modern men are experiencing what we can dub The Sbarro Effect

Human beings will settle for that which is serviceable, UNTIL more attractive and fulfilling options are readily available. Luckily for us, it's comparatively easier to turn oneself around than it is a failing corporation, who's time has likely passed
 

MatureDJ

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The whole therapy thing is such a turn-off, I was talking to this 28-year-old recently who lost her virginity to her ex-boyfriend and in our first convo she started complaining about him not being emotionally available but wanting blow jobs. Needless to say I was turned of instantly
I think she trying to pre-frame a possible relationship with you, as in, "you are definitely not desirable enough to get blôwjobs (and probably poontang) from me". Yes, I too would absolutely not want to have anything to do with her.
 

SW15

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Many modern men are experiencing what we can dub The Sbarro Effect

Human beings will settle for that which is serviceable, UNTIL more attractive and fulfilling options are readily available. Luckily for us, it's comparatively easier to turn oneself around than it is a failing corporation, who's time has likely passed
I don't see the Sbarro case study as being relevant to men and their problems in the sexual marketplace.

Sbarro's became serviceable pizza only due to a drop in quality from overexpansion. When Sbarro's had only a few locations in New York City many decades ago, it was likely above average pizza. If Sbarro had only remained in a few locations, it would have likely continued to perform strongly with a limited footprint.
 

BaronOfHair

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If Sbarro had only remained in a few locations, it would have likely continued to perform strongly with a limited footprint.
And modern men can similarly "get by", if

-We confine ourselves to part time work stocking shelves at WalMart

-Spend the rest of our waking hours binge watching crap on YouTube, while commiserating with folks who think just like we do

A man won't THRIVE acting like this though
 

BaronOfHair

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I don't see the Sbarro case study as being relevant to men and their problems in the sexual marketplace
A more apt analogy might be the downfall of Nickleodeon and many other once-glorious basic cable stations



Just as Nick and Sci-Fi SEEMED like top-notch programming, in an era before streaming offered unlimited options, in past decades a guy could be a mid-level manager at a distribution center in Tampa, and potentially snag a former beauty queen + Be perceived as desirable enough to enjoy side chicks on a regular basis

Today though, with more Americans moving into socioeconmic brackets beyond that of the firmly middle class, that middle manager at a distribution center who's lot in life looks to remain stationary is held in the sort of low esteem once reserved for solely for short order cooks at greasy spoon diners

And just as many of today's tweens(Folks who would've once comprised the core audience of shows like All That and Victorious)have little desire to consume "semi-edgy" young adult fare, when they can skip straight to programming such as House Of The Dragon and Euphoria on HBO, young women(Most of whom still desire kids and husbands)are skipping over men who are doing just well enough, and going straight to guys who are unassailably well-to-do
 
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SW15

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in past decades a guy could be a mid-level manager at a distribution center in Tampa, and potentially snag a former beauty queen + Be perceived as desirable enough to enjoy side chicks on a regular basis

Today though, with more Americans moving into socioeconmic brackets beyond that of the firmly middle class, that middle manager at a distribution center who's lot in life looks to remain stationary is held in the sort of low esteem once reserved for solely for short order cooks at greasy spoon diners
This is some interesting commentary.

A middle tier guy who is white collar or somewhat blue collar like a managerial worker at a distribution center was more positively perceived in past decades as compared to more recent times. I think your example of a former beauty queen is a bit of a stretch but he would have an easier time than now getting a reasonably attractive woman.

The middle class in the United States is getting squeezed. Some are moving into higher brackets but more are sliding towards poverty.

At the same time, women have more options now than ever and are focusing on a smaller subset of men, leaving more men sexless or struggling to get attention.

We had a thread last year that $75,000 - $125,000 annual salary isn't that helpful for getting women and that was mainly focused on men in their 30s and early 40s in that income range. Men with jobs paying $75,000 - $125,000 aren't basement dwelling omega male neckbeard losers. These are competent men and these are men who often get ignored. Online dating is a contributing factor in this.

 

BaronOfHair

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A middle tier guy who is white collar or somewhat blue collar like a managerial worker at a distribution center was more positively perceived in past decades as compared to more recent times. I think your example of a former beauty queen is a bit of a stretch but he would have an easier time than now getting a reasonably attractive woman.

I was being mildly facetious regarding the former beauty queen, though not by much. Point still stands: In the manufacturing-heavy past that ain't all that distant, what was once considered Upper Middle Class ain't so today, in this service based economy we now inhabit
 

Solomon

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I think she trying to pre-frame a possible relationship with you, as in, "you are definitely not desirable enough to get blôwjobs (and probably poontang) from me". Yes, I too would absolutely not want to have anything to do with her.
Or maybe the girl was a weirdo who didn't lose her virginity until 28? regardless our conversation turned me off, why is it always that the guy has the acquiesceto the girl? some of you guys need to change your mindset and realize as men we can have boundaries and standards as well.
 

MatureDJ

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Or maybe the girl was a weirdo who didn't lose her virginity until 28? regardless our conversation turned me off, why is it always that the guy has the acquiesceto the girl? some of you guys need to change your mindset and realize as men we can have boundaries and standards as well.
That wouldn't make her weird - she could just be a "late bloomer". Whatever the case, the right time for a woman is when she is both childless and ready to have sex. For some gals - like the "Cash Me" chick - it happens precociously at age 13, while for others it might not happen until 30, sometimes happening too late. I believe the blooming time is highly correlated with when her teats reach their peak, which of course makes perfect evolutionary sense in both the sexual attractiveness and milk-production aspects.
 

Chow Mein

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Women are seeking top tier men now more than ever. Millennial and Gen Z women believe that they are entitled to a top tier man.

Rollo Tomassi has been saying in recent years that "average women are not interested in average men". In the past, mid-range women and mid-range men used to pair up. Now, mid-range women would rather seek alpha or sigma men and only have shorter term casual sex with them instead of a committed longer term relationship with a mid-range man.

The typical mid-range man is ignored on dating apps. Real life approaching can be a little bit better for them but is a rather difficult path as well.

There's little incentive for a top tier man to be monogamous. However, if he's going to be monogamous, it would be with an elite looking woman who might offer something on the personality side that might persist after she's 40 and loses her looks.
As in sales, it’s tough to get in the door. If she agrees to a second date, you are almost guaranteed a bang.

Women have way more options due to simps, they feel entitled to get men above their league. If you’re a man of high value, similarly, you will always look for women at their peak SMV. It’s a zero sum game.
 

Solomon

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That wouldn't make her weird - she could just be a "late bloomer". Whatever the case, the right time for a woman is when she is both childless and ready to have sex. For some gals - like the "Cash Me" chick - it happens precociously at age 13, while for others it might not happen until 30, sometimes happening too late. I believe the blooming time is highly correlated with when her teats reach their peak, which of course makes perfect evolutionary sense in both the sexual attractiveness and milk-production aspects.
NO wonder you struggle with women, carry on though
 

MatureDJ

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Women are seeking top tier men now more than ever. Millennial and Gen Z women believe that they are entitled to a top tier man.

Rollo Tomassi has been saying in recent years that "average women are not interested in average men". In the past, mid-range women and mid-range men used to pair up. Now, mid-range women would rather seek alpha or sigma men and only have shorter term casual sex with them instead of a committed longer term relationship with a mid-range man.

The typical mid-range man is ignored on dating apps. Real life approaching can be a little bit better for them but is a rather difficult path as well.

There's little incentive for a top tier man to be monogamous. However, if he's going to be monogamous, it would be with an elite looking woman who might offer something on the personality side that might persist after she's 40 and loses her looks.
This is due to the memes of the working woman (no, not THAT kind of working woman :rolleyes: ) and the Welfare State, making it possible for women to have children without having to submit to a single non-high-tier husband so to guarantee his provisioning. Woman now can "shoot for the stars" and intentionally get knocked up by a Chad, thinking full well that they are going to make it no matter what - and women of a certain level of means can simply pick out a Chad's donor sperm and not even have to accept the man's manhood. :mad:

It's OVER for MedianCels.
 

SW15

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It's OVER for MedianCels.
In the United States, men in the middle of the bell curve are more likely to be sexless/near sexless if they are in the younger generations (Millennials, Gen Z)

The older living generations middle of the bell curve men (Baby Boomers, Generation X) had more of a chance being in the middle of the bell curve. Right now, there are plenty of 40s/50s Generations X'ers in sexless marriages. That's a function of longer relationships. When the Millennials of today get to Gen X's age, they won't be in sexless marriages. They'll be unmarried and sexless.

This is due to the memes of the working woman (no, not THAT kind of working woman :rolleyes: ) and the Welfare State, making it possible for women to have children without having to submit to a single non-high-tier husband so to guarantee his provisioning.
Second Wave Feminism (1960s-1980s feminism) changed the reality on this. By the end of the 1980s, the ideas of Second Wave Feminism had been ingrained in the United States and other Western nations. The 1960s-1980s was a transitional period from the old order into the new order.

Prior to the rise of Second Wave Feminism (I'll be describing the first 2/3rds of the 1900s), women were not a significant part of the USA's labor force. Women tended to work administrative assistant jobs, nursing and some medical/dental assisting jobs, K-12 teaching jobs, and some other lower wage, service sector jobs. A lot of women only held these jobs for short periods of their lives. They tended to hold these jobs until their first child was born or soon after that. Then, the next group of childless women would take their place. Thesce married women with children would leave their jobs and become economically dependent upon their white collar or blue collar worker husband.

In the first 2/3rds of the 1900s (and even in the 1800s before that), women were economically dependent on men. As a result, women valued the provider male for his economic capabilities. The provider male was typically a middle of the bell curve, beta male. Since the rise of Second Wave Feminism, women have not valued the provider male in any way. They've been able to handle their own economic needs if they are middle class +, usually through obtaining a bachelor's degree or higher and getting some white collar job. My generation (Millennials) came of age after Second Wave Feminism. White, middle class + Millennial women have rarely ever cared deeply about a man's economic provisioning capabilities early in romantic interactions. They judge attraction far more based on looks than anything. Millennial women have been seeking the vaginal tingles more than anything.

You mentioned the Welfare State earlier in this discussion. While provider males were eliminated for middle class + women by higher education and white collar work, provider males were eliminated for lower class women by robust government benefits. Marriage and two parent families are rare in Black/Hispanic communities in the USA. Lower economic class minorities and lower economic class Whites have government benefits to take care of them. They are less inclined for a provider male and marriage. They can also chase vaginal tingles too.

Woman now can "shoot for the stars" and intentionally get knocked up by a Chad, thinking full well that they are going to make it no matter what - and women of a certain level of means can simply pick out a Chad's donor sperm and not even have to accept the man's manhood. :mad:
I don't think part of what you describe is common. Women are seeking higher tier for sex but rarely getting knocked up by one. Most White women who are middle class + (bachelor's degree + women with white collar jobs) in the USA are on birth control. They are having sex with top tier men but not getting pregnant from this sex. Additionally, many of the top tier men also using condoms to prevent pregnancy. This is a part of why birth rates have fallen, though a lot of these middle class + women will get married to someone around 30 and pump out 1-2 "Last Call" type babies in their early to mid-30s (32-37). That tends to be trend in bougie social circles as I have documented in the thread below.


The women in lower economic classes are the ones not effectively using birth control and having babies in unstable situations.

Women in higher economic classes are doing the following....
  • Locking down an alpha/sigma type and having a family with him (less common, but it happens)
  • Being a Girl Boss careerist female with the bachelor's degree + and white collar, getting to their 30s/early 40s and being childless, and riding the penis carousel, often having sex with top tier men off of swipe apps who have essentially no intention of committing to them. These Girl Boss types are effectively using birth control in their sexual encounters.
  • Marrying around age 30 (often with the nearest beta they can find) and having a boring marriage that produces 1-2 Last Call babies and plenty of photos/videos that can make them look good on social media platforms in the eyes of the social spheres.
The second two bullet points are far more common paths in life.
 
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