What makes you the prize?

ShePays

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If the woman pursues you, if being with you costs her something, and if she wants to show you off, then you are the prize.

You are not the prize just because you think you are. If you are chasing women, struggling to overcome their resistance, and maxing out your credit cards, she is not only the prize, but you aren't even winning a bronze medal.

The only thing a woman should ever regret about being with you is that she was so sexually aggressive. If you are over pursuing women, then even if you succeed in seducing them, buyer's remorse is inevitable; and if you are okay with that, then you don't even really prize yourself.

If you want to fix that, then forget about what women want, and focus on what men admire most about each other. Make a list of the skills that give men status among men, and start ticking them off your list in whatever order gets you most engaged the fastest. Range instructors used to train soldiers to hit targets at Night, by taking their eyes off of the target. So, just think about this advice like that, if it helps.

I will warn that it is better to keep accomplishments and experiences locked away in a safe that indicates the value of the contents, instead of displaying them in a trophy case. This doesn't mean that you can't tell a woman anyting, but you should never tell her everything. I have been married long enough to have adult children, and the two things my wife knows for certain about me are that she doesn't know everything about me , and that she never will.
 
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Amante Silvestre

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focus on what men admire most about each other.
I was completely behind what you were saying right up to this point.

My greatest quality; the factor of greatest attraction to women by their own admittance, is that I often end up being a man unlike any other they have met before.

I am always seen as so unique and intriguing that they must continue to pursue in order to learn more. Even when things are imperfect, they are too curious not to.

This I largely contribute to my own passion and curiosity to all of the different possibilities and options life has to offer. I pursue life at all levels in so many different ways. From building log cabins by hand off of the grid to living the VIP lifestyle in downtown Manhattan and virtually 1,000 different things in between, I have conquered and/or embraced such a wide variety of experiences, perceptions, skills/talents and lifestyles in this journey.

At this point, I can sit with a cup of coffee with any women, spend 15 minutes chatting with her, and already know which parts of myself I can selectively reveal in order to establish a type of conversation that draws them in. My diverse history allows me to function effectively with all types of women. And the more I reveal about myself, the more mysterious I become to them, because they begin to realize I expand far beyond what they think they know of me.

Women often tell me I scare them because of this. They actually tell me that they FEAR me because it is such a seductive quality to them. They think I'm big trouble, but they can seldom resist.

And I can sustain it for months and even years, because I have a seemingly bottomless well of skills, talents, interests and experiences to draw from, all thanks to this passion and curiosity that always drove me to get out there and live.

I can share screenshots of messages from women I ghosted a week ago, a month ago or even 6 months ago who still wonder what went wrong; still curious why I vanished and don't respond. That's how much of an impact it leaves.

I don't measure myself against other men because I do not need to attain what other men have attained to have the same effect as them. I get the women these men want, the women they lose, the women who avoid them, precisely because I am unique and different from them. And the whole time I am merely pursuing my own thirst for different experiences. My life. My interests. For me.

Last week I told a woman to grab a cup of coffee and meet me at this big boulder. We sat on that boulder and talked for just a little while. 2nd meeting was a marathon session in the bedroom. And this was with a woman who clearly stated she was not into hookups, adamant that she wanted to find something long term and was well aware from our discussion that I have what she came to describe herself as a "3 date/clean slate" approach to dating women, where if I don't think things are working I walk and move on to the next one.

I am a man who has clearly DEFINED HIMSELF. There are no questions. It's in stone. Anchored. Unapologetic. No bullsh*t. But I also share with them the same desires they seek. Same connections and relationships they want for themselves. This allows me to tell a woman I'm out there having sex and they'll stare at me like I'm the most honest guy they ever met rather than a player. They see me as a refreshing man they can go long term with even when I cant or wont promise that to them.

Sometimes the way women work makes absolutely no sense to me, but I'm in my groove and it works so well.....
 

ShePays

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I was completely behind what you were saying right up to this point.
I'm trying to embrace the accident Chinese philosophers's style of writing, in which each word is a seed, to grow in the mind, rather than the writing a tree, to be plucked for fruit. That's difficult for me, since I'm a stream of consciousness writer, but I'm practicing leaving concepts unexplained, with varying degrees of success.

My intention by that fragment to which you objected was to address why many young men lack confidence with women, which is that they lack confidence as men. Therefore, it's important for them to stop trying to pretend to be what they think women want, but just to become confident as a man, apart from the opinions of women.

Frequently, I lay out a list of skills for young men to acquire, which, when accomplished, should make them comfortable around anyone. But, the reason these skills will give them confidence, one of the reasons, is that they will earn the respect of other men, as well as an internal sense of general competence.

Historically, women have relied on the respect a man commands from his fellows, to determine his social status. A man respected only for providing women entertainment and pleasure is typically considered a gigolo, and is esteemed in the broader society about as highly as a stripper. Of course, many low status men would be satisfied to be thought of only as a woman's plaything, but it's a low aspiration, the aspiration of desperate men.

When a man's man lacks confidence with women, it's because he doesn't understand them, and places them on pedestals.

A ladies man lacks a broader social value, because he lacks the confidence of other men, and over-relies on the esteem of women, for his self-worth.

A socially awkward man lacks confidence around both men and women, because he overly objectifies the latter, and doesn't feel he's earned the respect of the former.

The first group just needs an attitude adjustment, a realignment.

The second group is more difficult, because they readily receive a constant supply of validation, from the source from which they most desire it.

The 3rd group is overrepresented here, it seems, and is primarily the group I was addressing with the section to which you objected. This is the group artificially inflated by the absense of fathers.
 

guru1000

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Historically, women have relied on the respect a man commands from his fellows, to determine his social status. A man respected only for providing women entertainment and pleasure is typically considered a gigolo, and is esteemed in the broader society about as highly as a stripper. Of course, many low status men would be satisfied to be thought of only as a woman's plaything, but it's a low aspiration, the aspiration of desperate men.

When a man's man lacks confidence with women, it's because he doesn't understand them, and places them on pedestals.

A ladies man lacks a broader social value, because he lacks the confidence of other men, and over-relies on the esteem of women, for his self-worth.

A socially awkward man lacks confidence around both men and women, because he overly objectifies the latter, and doesn't feel he's earned the respect of the former.

The first group just needs an attitude adjustment, a realignment.

The second group is more difficult, because they readily receive a constant supply of validation, from the source from which they most desire it.

The 3rd group is overrepresented here, it seems, and is primarily the group I was addressing with the section to which you objected. This is the group artificially inflated by the absense of fathers.
For sake of discussion:

This quote infers that a man should aspire to command the respect of other men, and that determines his social status (the "man's man"). And that a "ladies man" lacks such social value, because he lacks the confidence of other men.

However keeping this discussion within this limited scope of either man (without the endless other individual idiosyncratic characteristics), then, this man's man is a slave to the social constructs of other men. Whereas the ladies man may not give a fvck about social constructs, and just does what he desires to do, and does so shamelessly and unapologetically with zero regard to men, women, or their respect.

So from an overall perspective, we can place both advantages and disadvantages to either men, BUT I would lean more toward the "ladies man" as he does what he desires to do and so is truest to himself whereas the man's man who seeks respect from other men is a slave to the social constructs of the time (which frequently change throughout history) and may very well (and does) betray his own natural desires to achieve this aim.
 

Amante Silvestre

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My intention by that fragment to which you objected was to address why many young men lack confidence with women, which is that they lack confidence as men. Therefore, it's important for them to stop trying to pretend to be what they think women want, but just to become confident as a man, apart from the opinions of women.
This I can certainly agree with, though just from my own perspective, I think a man can make the same mistake by trying to measure himself up to what he thinks a man is and how that might garner respect from other men.

This is just my opinion, my experience, but....

When I was out living in the woods with my axe and carving a life out of the landscape around me, I had several neighbors who were living the same way. Friendships, bartering and the ability to learn from them was necessary for me to be successful in that lifestyle. Likewise, when I live that VIP life in the city, I had to make connections on different levels. Different friendships, different favors and willing to learn the ins and outs of that life too.

Either way, it was not the respect of other men I sought after, but a respect for the way life worked for these different types of men.

When I was out in the woods, had I told them of all the tales of a VIP life in the city they would have thought me crazy. I would have been looked down upon as too good, too sophisticated and underserving of their lifestyle. I would be an outcast. Likewise, when I am VIP and talking about building cabins with an axe, these men would think of me as crazy, brutish, too simple of a man for this lavish lifestyle. I would be an outcast.

The measure of a man is completely different with each man, and often times what makes a man a man to one man will be seen as a glaring weakness to another.

Me, I leave it to women to make the comparison between what I am as a man and what other men are. Let the chips fall where they may.

I do not think what makes a man to a woman.
I do not think what makes a man to another man.

I simply set out to live my life on my terms, and I can now be a man dressed with sophistication who can carve a life out in the woods with his hands.

That is a man few women have ever met.

I learned that when you become a man who cannot be compared to any other, when a man or woman meets you and they know they will not meet another like you anytime soon....that you will trigger a scarcity mindset in everyone you meet should they come to like you. You will be something unique, different and hard to forget; something that lasts a lifetime to them. Whether a good friend or a romantic anomaly, you are a true prize to their world.

All in all, I agree with much of what you're trying to say with this thread. It's just the finer particulars where I see things differently and in my own way. It's just my 2 cents worth. Nothing more.
 
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ShePays

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For sake of discussion:

This quote infers that a man should aspire to command the respect of other men, and that determines his social status (the "man's man"). And that a "ladies man" lacks such social value, because he lacks the confidence of other men.

However keeping this discussion within this limited scope of either man (without the endless other individual idiosyncratic characteristics), then, this man's man is a slave to the social constructs of other men. Whereas the ladies man may not give a fvck about social constructs, and just does what he desires to do, and does so shamelessly and unapologetically with zero regard to men, women, or their respect.

So from an overall perspective, we can place both advantages and disadvantages to either men, BUT I would lean more toward the "ladies man" as he does what he desires to do and so is truest to himself whereas the man's man who seeks respect from other men is a slave to the social constructs of the time (which frequently change throughout history) and may very well (and does) betray his own natural desires to achieve this aim.
You've omitted the Socially Awkward Man from this stripped down discussion, and he was my original target, as the one of the 3 I perceived most in need of help. As I said, the Man's-Man has the easiest problem to solve, since his is primarily attitudinal. The problem with the Ladies's-Man is that he doesn't think he has a problem, making it more difficult to solve. The Socially Awkward Man knows he has a problem, but doesn't know exactly what it is, nor how to solve it, and has the most work to do. The S.A.M. would rather be the L.M., no doubt. The M.M. envies the LM, but doesn't respect him or trust him.

Ultimately, I don't think that the true MM is driven my a need for acceptance by other men, but since the properly aligned MM is the highest status, most well-rounded, most fulfilled member of society, it is the route through which I steer the SAM. The LM life is one without true brotherhood, because the LM has little regard for the esteem and trust of other men, and though feminine relationships are satisfying, while they last, their fleeting nature makes for a lonelier, more hollow lifestyle than the fully actualized MM.
 
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guru1000

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You've omitted the Socially Awkward Man from this stripped down discussion, and he was my original target, as the one of the 3 I perceived most in need of help. As I said, the Man's-Man has the easiest problem to solve, since his is primarily attitudinal. The problem with the Ladies's-Man is that he doesn't think he has a problem, making it more difficult to solve. The Socially Awkward Man knows he has a problem, but doesn't know exactly what it is, nor how to solve it, and has the most work to do. The S.A.M. would rather be the L.M., no doubt. The M.M. envies the LM, but doesn't respect him or trust him.

Ultimately, I don't think that the true MM is driven my a need for acceptance by other men, but since the properly aligned MM is the highest status, most well-rounded, most fulfilled member of society, it is the route through which I steer the SAM. The LM life is one without true brotherhood, because the LM has little regard for the esteem and trust of other men, and since feminine relationships are satisfying, while they last, their fleeting nature makes for a lonelier, more hollow lifestyle than the fully actualized MM.
I did omit the Socially Awkward Man as we are in agreement there.

I wanted to delve into the MM and LM, hence my post.

Yes the MM has a brotherhood, but is it truly a brotherhood? As when that man runs into a difficulty that contradicts the interests of the brotherhood, then he may no longer be a brother. Observe any criminal indictment and watch (in awe) how the "brotherhood" is there to "support" him? Truly the brotherhood is an illusion. It feels great, yes, but when personal interests conflict, that brotherhood may be there to serve as your enemy not your ally (in many cases).

I agree that the LM leads to a hollow existence, that is, if we assume that his existence is solely based in chasing ladies.

There is a balance though without these limiting ascriptions to either man. A Whole man as I observe is a man that has his reach in all: Socially with both men and women, professional pursuits, and personal pursuits.

I agree with most all you have written. You piqued my interest with this thread. My input in your thread was solely on this distinction of buying into the wholeness of and trust into the integrity of a MM and his loyal audience, without looking at the finer distinctions that may arise when one least expects them.
 

ShePays

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I did omit the Socially Awkward Man as we are in agreement there.

I wanted to delve into the MM and LM, hence my post.

Yes the MM has a brotherhood, but is it truly a brotherhood? As when that man runs into a difficulty that contradicts the interests of the brotherhood, then he may no longer be a brother. Observe any criminal indictment and watch (in awe) how the "brotherhood" is there to "support" him? Truly the brotherhood is an illusion. It feels great, yes, but when personal interests conflict, that brotherhood may be there to serve as your enemy not your ally (in many cases).

I agree that the LM leads to a hollow existence, that is, if we assume that his existence is solely based in chasing ladies.

There is a balance though without these limiting ascriptions to either man. A Whole man as I observe is a man that has his reach in all: Socially with both men and women, professional pursuits, and personal pursuits.

I agree with most all you have written. You piqued my interest with this thread. My input in your thread was solely on this distinction of buying into the wholeness of and trust into the integrity of a MM and his loyal audience, without looking at the finer distinctions that may arise when one least expects them.
You've identified the fatal flaw within pecking-order brotherhoods: pecking-orders tend to be populated by chickens.
 

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If you are chasing women, struggling to overcome their resistance, and maxing out your credit cards, she is not only the prize, but you aren't even winning a bronze medal.

If you are over pursuing women, then even if you succeed in seducing them, buyer's remorse is inevitable; and if you are okay with that, then you don't even really prize yourself.
I’d give her all that until I got what I wanted from her. Then you can be ‘the prize” or “alpha” or “the man”.

To first play poker, you have invite them to sit at the table. You guys want to beat them before they leave the house.
 
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ShePays

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I’d give her all that until I got what I wanted from her. Then you can be ‘the prize” or “alpha” or “the man”.

To first play poker, you have invite them to sit at the table. You guys want to beat them before they leave the house.
If we're playing strip poker, we're not leaving house.
 

samspade

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What makes me the prize? It's in the eye of the beholder.

I'm glad you asked this question. I've been toying with starting a thread wondering this, but I didn't want to it to be about me. But I guess I'll do it anyway.

The fact is the last year of my life has been by far the most interesting. I've been single the entire time. I'm also poorer than I've been in a long time, in the monetary sense. I quit a solid job in America last year to hack it in Spain, to challenge myself mentally and spiritually.

The wealth part of it doesn't bother me so much. For instance, I assume a guy like @guru1000 makes good bank based on his posts. I've chosen a different life. I have a habit of flipping over the table every few years. Yet I somehow always land on my feet. I'm not poor...I'm writing this from a nice apartment two blocks from the Mediterranean, drinking a nice bottle of wine and obviously with modern creature comforts. But neither am I wealthy. Well, I suppose I am compared with 95% of the world, so I cannot complain.

What I mean is aside from a few euros, all I have is my sense of adventure, courage, experience, intelligence, and two passports. The second one wasn't given to me, I had to go out and take it.

I've made incredible new friends, mastered a foreign language, improved my social skills tenfold, whipped my a$$ into better shape, and found myself laughing and smiling 1000% more than I had for years. I've sought wisdom on SoSuave, learned to put my ego in check, and learned to love myself and be true to myself more than I ever had.

Prize? I was going to say life isn't a beauty contest. That's a lie. Sometimes it is. But how you compete matters. I compete with myself, that is, my former self. Have I improved? If I died tomorrow, would I be okay with the time allotted to me by the gods? Because the next guy can do what he wants. I'm doing me.

Notice I haven't mentioned females. They're there. I love 'em. Especially Latinas. Goddamn. And I've had some good experiences lately. But I don't sweat them. Of course, I talk to them - I'm not shy. But my new life has shifted the goal posts for me and I'm hitting more double doinks than in a long time. In a way, that's refreshing too. I have a new puzzle I'm figuring out.

How they see me as "the prize," like I said, eye of the beholder. I think I'm pretty fukking awesome. My time, my attention, and my seed are valuable to me. Any girl who can't show me how she's worth it will have to move along. Get in where you fit in, ladies.

Every morning when I wake up I thank the gods for another day I get to be me. I'm like my own prize and each day is a box of Cracker Jacks. That's the truth. I guess this did get pretty narcissistic, but you did ask. May you all pursue happiness and be true to thy selves.
 

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I have been married long enough to have adult children, and the two things my wife knows for certain about me are that she doesn't know everything about me , and that she never will.
What do you know about dating in 2019?
 

ShePays

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What do you know about dating in 2019?
I know absolutely nothing about social media and online dating. Does that clear things up?

I know that the internet has made communication so Broad and so shallow that it's now possible to communicate absolutely nothing to absolutely everyone.

I know that social media and smartphones have made people socially stupid.

and I know that women haven't changed in thousands of years, and that the only thing that really ever changes is excuses for failure.
 

ShePays

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I know absolutely nothing about social media and online dating. Does that clear things up?

I know that the internet has made communication so Broad and so shallow that it's now possible to communicate absolutely nothing to absolutely everyone.

I know that social media and smartphones have made people socially stupid.

and I know that women haven't changed in thousands of years, and that the only thing that really ever changes is excuses for failure.
Oh, and I also know that I have three adult sons who are dating in 2019 and don't seem to be having all of these impossible hurdles that every other young man is having. Whether that's because I kept them away from smartphones and internet while they were growing up, or because they had me for a father, or both , I don't know. there, there's something else I don't know.

I will tell you something else I do know. and that is that there have always been a large chunk of guys who were unsuccessful with women, and that the main difference between most of them and the guys who were good with girls was what was between their ears. of course, those guys didn't have a worldwide Network on which to commiserate about their failures, and to give each other complex excuses, either.

still, realistically, there are some guys who will never be very successful with women. That's just a natural fact of life, no matter what the pickup artist guru's pitching their programs tell them. They have been sold a bill of goods. But, I would estimate that about 75% of the guys who think they are total losers with girls are only losers because they think they are, and just aren't willing to do the hard work not to be, because their mommies told them they shouldn't have to change.

that's what daddies are for, to tell you to stop being a pvssy, get up off your a5s, stop crying like a girl, carry your own weight, because the world isn't going to love you Just the Way You Are. You need to change!
 
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