The incredible subtlety of the Friendzone

[Austin Allegro]

Man, sometimes women are bizarre. No, make that bizarre all the time.

There's an HB8 I've known as an acquaintance for a couple of years, but I never made a move because she had a BF, but she'd occasionally invited me to parties and swimming (we go to the same gym).

Recently she split with the BF and seemed to be getting interested, eg we danced at the gym ball with loads of EC and kino. Then she says 'I really like you Austin, you have a great sense of humour and I'm really looking forward to our holiday together next week' (we're going on a holiday with a group of people from the gym). Then she said 'If you're ever in my part of town, come over'.

So I took her up on this, invited her to a party in her part of town and as it was late, asked if I could stay over at hers. She said yes. We got back and she got a photo album and she said 'This is when we met' and it turns out she has an album with loads of pictures of me from parties etc I was at with her...I thought this HAD to be a green light, so I put my arm around her and held her hand - but she completely froze up! In my experience women will snuggle up to you if they like you in this situation, but she just stayed bolt upright and eventually said 'I think I will go to bed' and I was left on the sofa.

The next morning she says 'do you have any gorgeous single friends, as I would really like to meet them'

WTF???? Now I'm pretty sure I'm in the Friendzone, but DAMN, it can be confusing!!

 

[MindOverMatter]

I'd say that is a good indicator of a friend zone, and the best thing to do would be to treat her like a friend, back off somewhat, and use her as an emotional tampon. Date other girls, then when you have bad scenarios (or make some up), ask her for friendly advice, use her for emotional support, make her your AFC. she will always remember you making that move on her while looking at the photo album, and will wonder why you're no longer interested in her to the point where you're dating problematic women.

The next morning she says 'do you have any gorgeous single friends, as I would really like to meet them'

She gave you a sh!t test right there. The good thing to say would have been: "I was about to ask you the same thing, I can't find an adventurous woman anywhere these days, and I was hoping you knew some." in your best C&F attitude. For future reference, whenever a girl you are interested in asks you to hook her up with someone, throw it back in her face with some C&F negs.

examples:

her: your friend is kinda cute, is he single.
you: well yes and no.
her: what do you mean
you: he is single, but i doubt he'd be interested in a brat like you (C&F grin)

her: do you have any cute friends you can hook me up with.
you: no, they're all busy dating classy/adventurous/better dressed/etc girls. speaking of which, i should go and meet up with them, you don't mind do you?" (grin)

etc, never let her catch you off balance and always repay a sh!t test.

 

[Austin Allegro]

Mindovermatter, thanks. That's damned true about the shyt test!

Thing is I KNEW it was a shyt test the moment she said it, and really wanted to make a snappy comeback, but for some bizarre reason got scared and just mumbled something like 'hmm, well, we'll see'.

I definitely am having some 'oneitis' issues with this chick. Damn!

 

[WestCoaster]

FZ is a killer

Take it from a guy who has gone into that dreaded zone too often: It's a killer.

MindOverMatter's advice was perfect, however. You do have some strong points to build on from this experience and the only way to do it is to totally be C & F, act like it didn't phase you (even if it did) and go from there. Don't completely next her as she sounds intriguing, but it's critical you keep dating many women as you go through this process.

The best "revenge" is to be seen with another hot woman in front of the FZ woman. This gets 'em every time. I call it "parading" as you parade the other gal in front of the other. I was once getting dissed by this gal I had dated off and on and I really liked her. Another friend of mine who was pretty darn cute even offered up the parading. The other gal gave me this look like, "What the he-ll?!" And she called me the next day at work, very early in the morning. Luckily I wasn't yet there and a co-worker said I wasn't in yet, giving the other woman an idea that it may have been a late night!

So to make a long story longer, date lots of women, be seen with women in front of the other woman, and act like this doesn't phase you.

And please, do not let oneitis creep into your veins. It's an awful disease.

 

[GirlCrazy]

It's not like you're obligated to stay friends with her.

Once you are dating lots of women at the same time, being put in the friends zone (or as I like to call it, the doormat zone) won't be a big deal.

But until you reach that point, the friend zone is hell. The way I got past it was just to tell women that put me there that I already had plenty of friends and that I wasn't looking for any more.

So to make a long story longer, date lots of women, be seen with women in front of the other woman, and act like this doesn't phase you.

The problem with acting like it doesn't phase you is that it's still an act, and women see right through that.

I definitely am having some 'oneitis' issues with this chick. Damn!

Friend zone + oneitus = very bad

My advice is to tell her that you don't want to be friends, move on, and date as many women as possible. She probably won't take it well, and she'll cry and try various forms of guilt trips, but stand your ground and cut off all contact.

Of course when you make yourself completely unavailable she might change her mind about just being friends, but don't fall for that either. There's like 3 billion women out there. Choose one with a high interest level from day 1 and test that interest level by making a move on her. Rinse and repeat.

 

[legolas]

The more I think of this, the more I realize that the higly-touted friendzone is nothing but a context in the woman's mind. Once she decides to put you into this context, there's rules and limits as to what things mean. The context serves to color every action with a preset meaning.

A cuddle, a hug, a kiss, when inthe friendzone have totally different meanings than they do in a relationship. Just like the friendzone, a relationship is also a context where things like kissing, touching and sex mean something else.

Once you know you're in the friendzone context, there's not much you can do to change that context, and if there is, is it really worth the time and effort?

People who claim to have gotten out of the friendzone, were not in it to begin with!!!

How can that happen?

Well women are smart, just like us, and when they see a totally hot guy that they want -- who knows what processes go through in her head for her to decide this -- and she feels that she cannot get him, she'll make him a "friend"

In her head though, she always sees you as a potential partner and if the situation is right (e.g. she's single now), and you make a move, or she expresses her feelings for you, you're transported into the relationship context.

So you really never were in the friendzone to beging with!!! You were always sort of looming around until an opportunity offered itself and she put you where she originally wanted you. If you change during this time and become "not-that-sexy anymore" then she'll put you in the friendzone. Sexuality and detachment has a lot to do with it, just read Fingz guide how he got out of the FZ which I believe he never was in.

 

[TooColdUlrick]

just pull back from the situation. she knows what she did and she also knows that you know. she also knows that you don't want to be just friends.

you have given her something already that she seems to enjoy. uh, that would be you. now take it away from her and see what happens.

 

[WestCoaster]

Don't listen to what women SAY ...

... observe what they do. They are enormous hypocrites (hmm, I sense a WaterTiger lurking in the bushes, ready to pounce).

Anyway, I'll get clawed from WaterTiger for going on another anti-woman diatribe, but here I go.

Women SAY they want best friends that will be their lovers, and they even say it on radio and TV commericals for dating services. No, what they want is passion. I don't mind them wanting passion, I just wish they'd say it.

If that's what they want, why try to disguise it into some stupid "best friends" package? Just be blunt: I want to be wined, dined, have that starry-eyed look, chemistry out of this world ... and I want to be screwed. There, I wasn't offended, so why not just say this?

Why? Because they want to glamourize their relationship and put it on some higher plane that it's more than wild chemistry/sex/passion/starry eyes; they want to TELL everyone it's something deep like friendship (that takes a long time to develop by the way ... something women also have trouble with), something intellectual and refined.

THEY DON'T WANT THAT! (See Bad Boy syndrome for more information.)

So the best way to snag this woman is to pull back and date other women that you can find passion with, and don't forget to be seen with these women and talk about them in front of the FZ woman. A man becomes very attractive when seen with other women. Also, I think it's very healthy mentally to gain some form of revenge on LJBF's, even if it's just mental revenge. Screw that turn the other cheek thing. The quicker these hypocrites discover that they're missing out on the real men in life, the faster they MAY change their ways ... but don't count on it.

So while most men could easily convert from the F zone to lover and passion, most women are totally incapable of moving into something as deep and bonding as having a relationship that embodied the characteristics of friendship: trust, kindness, belief in one another, reliability, etc. ... thus the bad boy syndrome again because BBs do not have these qualities. But that's what they want. Never saw the movie "What Women Want" but I do know in the US of A, they want Bad Boys -- even 30+ year olds.

The sooner you get out of the FZ the better off you'll be.

 

[GirlCrazy]

some thoughts

I wanted to add that women pretty much decide from the very beginning what zone you are in. Your chance to avoid the friends zone is when you first meet her, not a month later when you get up the courage to try to kiss her. By then you're toast.

What helped me the most staying out of the FZ was to be crystal clear from the first moment I met a woman what my intentions were. I would always "make a move" to see what zone I was in. Having enough detachment made it so I didn't care if I got the LJBF speech -- I would just move on.

The ironic part was once I started being firm and up front about what I was looking for, I found that I was the one putting them in the friends zone not vise versa. I started noticing the reverse position of them trying to break out of my friends zone. It was a big ego boost at first, but after a while I started sympathizing over the futility of *anyone* trying to break out of the FZ.

It's easy to take lifelong frustrations out on the opposite sex. It's much harder to take the high road and avoid getting any kind of revenge or payback. You're really not doing any good, and as WC even admitted you're not going to change anyone. Instead, IMHO, it's better to spend that revenge time in a positive way -- seducing more women! Besides your new GF's will probably take it upon themselves to give payback to other women that have wronged you, and you get to take the high road LOL.

As far as parading your women around, it should be a natural thing and not something you need to go out of your way to do. Women are attention wh0res at heart, so most of them *want* to be paraded anyway. They will even compete to be paraded

 

[legolas]

Re: Don't listen to what women SAY ...

Originally posted by WestCoaster
... observe what they do.

Actually to be more accurate, don't listen to what they say, watch what they RESPOND to: PSDS (Power, Good Sex, Drama, Social Proof)

They are enormous hypocrites

In fact we men are too. How many guys say "I'm looking for a nice girl" when in reality they go with the one who offers them sex, or anything close to that. Women know this secret. They carefully watch what men respond to (tanned legs, short dresses, tight jeans, cleavage, qetc) and they control it to the extent that they choose. Why don't men do the same?

 

[WestCoaster]

Are you kidding me?!!

What AFCs do you hang around? None of my friends said they were looking for a nice girl. They were looking for someone hot and said they hoped they had some similar interests. I've rarely heard nice in the equation ... and that's why most of them have crappy marriages.

Men aren't nearly the hypocrites women are. Most men I know say what they want in a woman and go after that type of woman.

You're either a woman, an AFC, or a friend of many AFCs.

How many men do you know who make it their daily duty to say they're looking for a "best friend" to marry? I don't know any men who say that.

 

[MindOverMatter]

every guy wants a decent, honest, respectful slut

 

[GirlCrazy]

Originally posted by MindOverMatter
every guy wants a decent, honest, respectful slut

A saint in the kitchen and a slut in the bedroom!

 

[Austin Allegro]

Thanks everybody.

The odd thing about this situation is that I assumed I was in the Friendzone anyway, and I was ok with that. I wasn't obsessed with this girl or anything , and I tend to agree with the poster who said you should always make a move quickly on women, not wait.

I suppose what I'm confused about is the incredibly subtle demarcation line between BF and LJBF.

Why, for example, does a woman shower you with compliments, dance with you and make heavy EC, show you albums of pictures of yourself, compliment you on your humour, dress sense, and say you are welcome to stay at her place anytime, but then not respond when you make a move??

One thing I know about this woman (that her friend told me) is that she obsessively avoids making the first move, and deliberately flakes on men to test their committment, so perhaps that was part of it. Oh well, who cares, I don't play those games.

There is another chick going on holiday with us next week who I like - so this could be the perfect 'parading' opportunity!

 

[WaterTiger]

Originally posted by Austin Allegro
The next morning she says "Do you have any gorgeous single friends, as I would really like to meet them".
Thing is I KNEW it was a shyt test the moment she said it, and really wanted to make a snappy comeback, but for some bizarre reason got scared and just mumbled something like "Hmm, well, we'll see".

Her:"Do you have any gorgeous single friends, as I would really like to meet them".
You: No, just me. You won't find a better man on the planet.

Don't let fear & nerves cripple you. Ever got up in the middle of the night & stubbed your toe? Hurt like hell didn't it? But did you die? No. Did you stop walking? No. Being bold won't kill you either. If you have to make an error, then make it by being TOO bold, not being too nice.

Originally posted by WestCoaster
They are enormous hypocrites (hmm, I sense a WaterTiger lurking in the bushes, ready to pounce).

Anyway, I'll get clawed from WaterTiger for going on another anti-woman diatribe, but here I go.

GRRRRRR BABY! Hey! I'm just happy that you say "most women" instead of "all women" like you used to! Score one for me! While I actually agree with most of your "diatribe", you did forget a few points.

Originally posted by WestCoaster

Women SAY they want best friends that will be their lovers.... No, what they want is passion. I don't mind them wanting passion, I just wish they'd say it.

Yeah, we say "I want passion" you say "Cool! Let's fvck!"
That's not quite what we mean by "passion". We mean:"Show me your power. Show me you're an Alpha Male! Make me feel safe and protected.".

You keep forgetting that we are EMOTIONAL creatures, we want to FEEEEEL! There's a difference between making love and just getting your rocks off. Yeah, sex is great, sex is fun, we can get that anywhere. And if we can get it anywhere...what makes you different from 80 million other guys? THE PASSION you make us feel.

Originally posted by WestCoaster
So while most men could easily convert from the F zone to lover and passion, most women are totally incapable of moving into something as deep and bonding as having a relationship that embodied the characteristics of friendship: trust, kindness, belief in one another, reliability, etc...thus the bad boy syndrome again because BBs do not have these qualities. But that's what they want. Never saw the movie "What Women Want" but I do know in the US of A, they want Bad Boys

:Sigh:: Erases sarcastic reply....erases second sarcastic reply... )
Women want STRONG, CONFIDENT men. The closest thing we can find is a "Bad Boy". We DO want the BB to have the good qualities as well. We want the ying/yang symbol, the BB with a touch of AFC inside. Then we can be that decent, honest slut!

 

[Dirtheart]

Why, for example, does a woman shower you with compliments, dance with you and make heavy EC, show you albums of pictures of yourself, compliment you on your humour, dress sense, and say you are welcome to stay at her place anytime, but then not respond when you make a move??

These are all blatant signals of high IL, so this is such a tricky one!! I would guess that she was/is interested, but for some reason (which you'll probably never know) she flaked. We could spend forever guessing why and not come up with an answer.

I remember being in a similar situation with a friend. She'd been hitting on me all day, which led to us to her bed (semi dressed), and then as soon as I kissed her she suddenly flaked on me!!

Best not to dwell too much. It's just something that women do I suppose.

 

[Dirtheart]

If you have to make an error, then make it by being TOO bold, not being too nice.

Great advice!!!

 

[CEF]

I sympathize. There was this HB9/7 body/face that I had originally met at a dance class. A *month* later I find a note stuck to the front door of my building (she knew where I lived as she had dropped me off one night) to call her as she wants to go out to a Salsa dance workshop. Naturally I see this as huge IL.

Long story shot. Go to workshop, hang out with her for a while but she is strangely unresponsive to my advances. She doesent resist them however she most definitely does not recipcrocate. At this point I know im in the damn FZ but im not sure why.

So during a discussion about meeting people in bars I bust out the following little bit of dialogue:

Me: 'You know what I really hate? I hate it women lead guys on, only to use them and then get rid of them when the mood suits them. I hate being used. I mean come on, if you arent interested just say so. We arent fragile things, we can deal with rejection.'
Her: 'Kind of like what I am doing to you right now?'

Got guilt?

Turns out she has a LD boyfried. Anyhow, at least with that knowledge I know that im only in the temporary FZ as opposed to the permanent FZ. Thus I will simply use her as social proof and have fun occasionally dancing with her as she loves to dance and looks smokin in a set of heels.

 

[big_jeffry]

look man, immediately change the subject without being too evident when she starts to talk about other guys. look at my "escaping the friends zone" thread located in dj tips

 

[flunky]

Originally posted by Austin Allegro
I suppose what I'm confused about is the incredibly subtle demarcation line between BF and LJBF.

Why, for example, does a woman shower you with compliments, dance with you and make heavy EC, show you albums of pictures of yourself, compliment you on your humour, dress sense, and say you are welcome to stay at her place anytime, but then not respond when you make a move??

I used to know a really hot chick (very athletic, was a sprinter), and she used to say things to me like "the woman who gets you will be lucky" and she even invited me to stay over at her room at college, although I declined. See, this girl, while saying the girl who got me would be lucky, well, it just seemed clear to me that she didn't want to be that lucky girl herself!

Actions are all that really matter. A woman can tell you she thinks you're amazing, wonderful, etc., and indeed, if she's already sold on you, she can do so and mean it. But she can also say these things and not mean a word of it, especially if she's not your girlfriend yet and she's either being polite or else indulging on an ego trip.