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The Facts on Car Accident Deaths and COVID-19

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ShePays

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It's a virus which seems to prefer killing Chinese and Italians rather than Americans! As evidenced by that low US death rate. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Euthanasia is baked into socialized medicine. Why would countries with socialized medicine expend resources and experimental treatments to save the least productive members of their societies, during a pandemic, when they won't even provide them with cancer treatment or transplant surgery, when there is no abnormal strain of their medical resources? Socialized medicine advocates only palliative care for seniors. Do you really believe the 80 year old heart patients with COPD, experiencing Kung Flu-related respiratory complications are getting any preferential treatment in China and Italy?
 

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EyeBRollin

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I will always appreciate the workers in our country, and that includes our health care workers.
I'm impressed as to how well the system has held up so far, considering how much verbal bashing it has taken in recent years. I'm pleasantly surprised that it is better than we have been led to believe.
The health care workers keep people alive. They don't contain the virus. You're conflating two separate tasks.

You're a pessimist, I'm an optimist (self converted). Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst, I always say. The reality will usually fall somewhere in between. In any case, it's not good to live in fear. You know what they say, a coward dies a thousand deaths.
That is a contradiction. If you can't accept this could last 18 months, you can't possibly be preparing for the worst.

Hope is independent of preparation. The two have nothing to do with each other.
 

EyeBRollin

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Euthanasia is baked into socialized medicine. Why would countries with socialized medicine expend resources and experimental treatments to save the least productive members of their societies, during a pandemic, when they won't even provide them with cancer treatment or transplant surgery, when there is no abnormal strain of their medical resources? Socialized medicine advocates only palliative care for seniors. Do you really believe the 80 year old heart patients with COPD, experiencing Kung Flu-related respiratory complications are getting any preferential treatment in China and Italy?
Knock off the for-profit health care propaganda. Italy's health care system is at max capacity dealing with COVID-19 patients because like the United States, they didn't impose social lock downs quick enough.
 

ShePays

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Knock off the for-profit health care propaganda. Italy's health care system is at max capacity dealing with COVID-19 patients because like the United States, they didn't impose social lock downs sooner.
So, you're suuuuuure Italy doesn't have age restrictions on certain types of care?
 

zekko

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That is a contradiction. If you can't accept this could last 18 months, you can't possibly be preparing for the worst.
Where did I say it couldn't last 18 months? I don't know where you're coming up with this stuff. And heath care workers do just as much to try to contain the virus as anyone else, but I wasn't even talking about how fast it spreads, I just said I appreciated them, and other American workers. I'm optimistic that we will handle this about as well as it can be handled, but there are going to be casualties.

Hopefully before we reach the 18 month mark, we will have a vaccine, but that's a long way out.
 
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Knock off the for-profit health care propaganda. Italy's health care system is at max capacity dealing with COVID-19 patients because like the United States, they didn't impose social lock downs quick enough.
Both can be true: Italy's system can be a bureaucratic mess, and the US's system is garbage.

Anyway there are no winners in this. (No that's not a straw man.) I don't get all the back and forth, black and white nonsense. This is an extraordinary circumstance, plain and simple. Everyone should just do his part and protect the weak and vulnerable as best he can.
 

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Both can be true: Italy's system can be a bureaucratic mess, and the US's system is garbage.
The 2 things U.S. medicine does exceptionally well are trauma care and elective surgery. Everything else...eh...at best.

The O N E and O N L Y thing socialized medicine does well is to not bankrupt the individual patient. Patients die waiting in cue for care, almost ritually, and elderly patients are flat out denied care, pro forma. Socialized medicine sounds great to those who should need medical care least, but is often an absolute horror show for those who need it most. Have a situation where patients over 80 years old require special attention and treatment? Welcome to Hell's waiting room.

My mother-in-law needed a procedure her insurance decided she was too old for, and refused to cover it. Fortunately, she lives in the U.S., and we just said "f uck insurance," and paid for it out-of-pocket. Try that under socialized medicine.

I f ucking hate these retarded Bernie-bros who think the world owes them a f ucking living, and who are happy to f uck the rest of the world over for their own free lunch. F uck that, and f uck them!
 
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samspade

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My mother-in-law needed a procedure her insurance decided she was too old for, and refused to cover it. Fortunately, she lives in the U.S., and we just said "f uck insurance," and paid for it out-of-pocket. Try that under socialized medicine.
I don't want to start the umpteenth argument about this, so I'll respectfully ask: Why do you suppose that under a public health system the procedure would be denied? It sounds to me like you're making an assumption based on a major flaw in the (for-profit) American system.
 

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I don't want to start the umpteenth argument about this, so I'll respectfully ask: Why do you suppose that under a public health system the procedure would be denied? It sounds to me like you're making an assumption based on a major flaw in the (for-profit) American system.
It isn't an assumption, but to cut right to the chase, let me ask what her options would've have been, where you live, had your medical system denied her treatment? Would she have had the option to have family pay for the procedure, out-of-pocket, or would she have had to leave the country, to seek treatment elsewhere?
 

samspade

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It isn't an assumption, but to cut right to the chase, let me ask what her options would've have been, where you live, had your medical system denied her treatment? Would she have had the option to have family pay for the procedure, out-of-pocket, or would she have had to leave the country, to seek treatment elsewhere?
I honestly don't know enough about the Spanish system to tell you. But I guess my point is it still sounds like a hypothetical, "had your medical system denied her treatment." Why would it? That's what I don't understand. I can understand delays and bureaucracy but what incentive does a national health system have to deny her...so my greater point is she wouldn't have to explore backup options. Maybe I'm being obtuse.

BUT ~ I do agree in principle with your point. However U.S. insurers have bastardized the system. Insurance should be: Person pays insurer, person needs procedure, insurer pays hospital/clinic/doctor etc. Failing that, person pays doctor. Yet my last U.S. visit (insured) involved a $35 copay and a $120 lab bill for a simple EKG. Meanwhile they are denying people coverage like you said. I think it's asinine. And no I'm not a Bernie Bro.
 
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samspade

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I just do not understand the argument for socialized medicine. Exactly what problem are socialists trying to avoid here?
That's a fair question. I've thought about this a lot.

I see health care as a wise public investment, like a sewer system or a military. Simple as that. I agree that governments usually fukk things up or run them badly, so I think if you want private insurance, that's should be an option. Most middle class to wealthy Americans would probably opt for that. But I think it's more expensive in the long run for the poor and unemployed to potentially have their lives ruined over a run of bad luck.

It's worth pointing out that you're "socializing" (for lack of a better word) medicine through your premiums, anyway. If a poor person takes an ambulance to the hospital and gets a $10,000 bill, that isn't getting paid, at least not by him. YOU pay for it. So instead of paying through high premiums for things that maybe could be avoided with basic care, why not chip in for the public good to help prevent these things? Can't prevent everything, but you know what I mean I'm sure.

The U.S. spends billions on foreign nation building but we don't invest properly in building a healthy homeland. It's always ready, fire, aim.

And no, I don't think a public health program means we're on a slippery slope toward gulags and concentration camps. I think it's a sensible investment. I'm not even a "lefty." Just my $.02, respect if you disagree.
 

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I honestly don't know enough about the Spanish system to tell you. But I guess my point is it still sounds like a hypothetical, "had your medical system denied her treatment." Why would it? That's what I don't understand. I can understand delays and bureaucracy but what incentive does a national health system have to deny her...so my greater point is she wouldn't have to explore backup options. Maybe I'm being obtuse.

BUT ~ I do agree in principle with your point. However U.S. insurers have bastardized the system. Insurance should be: Person pays insurer, person needs procedure, insurer pays hospital/clinic/doctor etc. Failing that, person pays doctor. Yet my last U.S. visit (insured) involved a $35 copay and a $120 lab bill for a simple EKG. Meanwhile they are denying people coverage like you said. I think it's asinine. And no I'm not a Bernie Bro.
A quick search shows that Spain has both public and private health care options, which, on the surface, anyway, is similar to the U.S. I didn't do a deep dive; so, I didn't discover the details. I only know that in some countries with socialized medicine, you either take what they offer(or don't offer) or you're screwed, because there is no option to pay outside the system.

Essentially, socialized medicine is just a govt-run health insurance plan, and in many cases, a monopolistic one(as if that ever improves anything). We agree that private insurance sucks, but the only thing that sucks worse is a govt-run health insurance monopoly(Spain, apparently, doesn't have that...congrats). Insurance improves the quality and cost of medical care about as well as guaranteed student loans improve the quality and cost of education, which is to say they both do the opposite of what they pretend to do.

Regardless of whether insurance sucks, which under Obamacare it does more than ever...having options is A L W A Y S better than no options.


I never thought you were a Bernie-bro. I was just venting.
 

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Fair enough. It sounds like the root issue you are trying to address is the problem of poor people not being able to afford something expensive that breaks them. Is that accurate?
That, yes, and the personal and public costs.
 

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Fair enough. It sounds like the root issue you are trying to address is the problem of poor people not being able to afford something expensive that breaks them. Is that accurate?
That, yes, and the personal and public costs.
EBR(and others) should take note that THIS is what an intelligent discussion looks like.
 
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EyeBRollin

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So did the US impose social lockdowns quick enough and that is why we are not at max capacity yet?

Or maybe our (sort of) free market health care created that extra capacity....
No. The US was at least a month too late. Our health care system will be completely overrun in a couple weeks.
 

EyeBRollin

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That's a fair question. I've thought about this a lot.

I see health care as a wise public investment, like a sewer system or a military. Simple as that. I agree that governments usually fukk things up or run them badly, so I think if you want private insurance, that's should be an option. Most middle class to wealthy Americans would probably opt for that. But I think it's more expensive in the long run for the poor and unemployed to potentially have their lives ruined over a run of bad luck.
This is actually strawman argument. The Medicare-for-all advocates only suggest what exists in other countries; the government pays the health care bill instead of private insurers. It is not the government providing health care. The arguments against single-payer are disingenuous at best and propaganda at worst because the United States already has single-payer health care called Medicare. Hence, Medicare-for-All. The reason Medicare hasn't been expanded to cover all U.S. citizens is relentless health insurance lobbying and disinformation campaigns.

A single-payer system has little to do with the health care capacity for the sake of this conversation. It's more that any COVID-19 patient won't get a fat bill in the mail for services rendered. Being on a ventilator for 2 weeks will lead to zero medical bankruptcies under single-payer. Can American system say the same? The real question is: of the U.S. vs. Italy / S. Korea / Spain / Germany / UK / France - who will have the most medical bankruptcies?
 

EyeBRollin

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A quick search shows that Spain has both public and private health care options, which, on the surface, anyway, is similar to the U.S. I didn't do a deep dive; so, I didn't discover the details. I only know that in some countries with socialized medicine, you either take what they offer(or don't offer) or you're screwed, because there is no option to pay outside the system.
That's because it is based on need. When Canadians come to the U.S. it is based on elective tests and procedures. If they want to get a quicker procedure they have the option to drive across the border. They aren't coming to the U.S. for a liver transplant.


I never thought you were a Bernie-bro. I was just venting.
With all due respect dude, you're citing a blog. Let's be clear about one thing:

Italy is not treating elderly because the COVID-19 has breached the capacity of their health care system. Their ICU's are full, so they are in triage mode. That same problem will happen in the U.S. it's only a question of how soon that will be. New York's apex is an estimated three weeks away, the rest of the country just a couple weeks behind.
 

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That's because it is based on need. When Canadians come to the U.S. it is based on elective tests and procedures. If they want to get a quicker procedure they have the option to drive across the border. They aren't coming to the U.S. for a liver transplant.



With all due respect dude, you're citing a blog. Let's be clear about one thing:

Italy is not treating elderly because the COVID-19 has breached the capacity of their health care system. Their ICU's are full, so they are in triage mode. That same problem will happen in the U.S. it's only a question of how soon that will be. New York's apex is an estimated three weeks away, the rest of the country just a couple weeks behind.
NYC is already sitting on a stockpile of breathing machines and there are more coming. A doctor recently developed a breathing apparatus that can be constructed out of readily available materials at any hospital. In addition to that, as hospitals reach their capacity, any hesitation on using the malaria drug that has already proven to be effective will become much more lax and will most likely be administered more.

There’s more going on here than just an exponential curve on a graph that you seem to be convinced MUST go on uninterrupted.

I’m also going to go out on a limb here and say that had we shut down the borders and isolated people like they are now much earlier as you say should have been done, you would instead be here complaining about a dictatorship and a police state, arguing this ordeal doesn’t call for such over reactions.
 

ShePays

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That's because it is based on need.
That's called Marxism..."from each according to his ability, to each according to his need."
When Canadians ... want to get a quicker procedure they have the option to drive across the border.
Unfortunately, not everyone who lives under socialized medicine has that option, and if you had your way, no-one would.
They aren't coming to the U.S. for a liver transplant.
Because they can't get on the list. Otherwise, they would. So, they go to China, instead...the #1 nation for fresh organ harvesting.
Let's be clear about one thing:

Italy is not treating elderly...
With all dude respect, you just confirmed the very same blog quote you complained about.
That same problem will happen in the U.S. it's only a question of how soon that will be. New York's apex is an estimated three weeks away, the rest of the country just a couple weeks behind.
Alright, Nostradamus, we'll check your apocalyptic predictions in 5 weeks.

My prediction? Kung Flu just killed your dreams of Medi-scare-for-all, another term as Screecher for Nasty Po'loser, and any Demonkkkrap dreams of winning the WH.
 
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