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Norway's approach for covid

EyeBRollin

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And believe me, I know how it sounds when I say people need to die, it sounds like Nazi Germany. So let me elaborate, in evolution, there is a fundamental need for natural genetical modification. In other words, it will not serve the species (long-term, keep that word in mind, long-term) to save genes that are not suitable for the environment or future events like this. We need the naturally strongest genes to prevail and shape future generations and reiterations of humanity. We are playing God in this event, we are not. We will never be. And I know it doesn't sound compassionate, but sometimes nature isn't. Especially if we don't deserve the same respect we give it. And trust me, we do not. We take it for granted.
Let's say everyone gets vaccinated, given the recent spikes in cases of Israel and Singapore, what happens then? Another iteration of the vaccine until we get it right? You see, one thing we do fundamentally disagree with is the concept of normalcy. Let go of that, what was will never be. Who you were stopped to exist. Accept that such a thing as normalcy is a social construct. This is the normalcy which is why some countries (and more to come) will simply say "let's try something different than the last 2 years, and just live with covid-19". When you state the vaccine and social mandates outcomes are better doing nothing, it can be misleading because we haven't tried "nothing". What we have tried so far are lockdowns and vaccine mandates. That is what these countries are doing now and what most "anti-vaxxers" are wanting to try, nothing. Accept it, live with it, and trust humanity is strong enough to progress. You see, science is a new field relative to human evolution and even more Earth's time in this galaxy. Doing nothing is more natural when you think about it. And we are here. Stronger, smarter, etc. This too shall pass.
I take your point regarding evolution and even normalcy. By the same token your position is asking the “pro-vaccine” crowd to be willing to sacrifice their families for your ideology. That is why you get folks echoing the kind of sentiments as Don Lemon. From the opposing view, your choice says “screw your grandparents, if they get covid and die that’s on them.” Vaccines work via community protection, not nearly as much individually.

Your public health choice affects other people. It’s akin to being killed in a crash of a drunk driver. They didn’t choose to die but were killed by someone else’s choice.
 

Bokanovsky

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Norway has a vaccination rate of 68% as of now. When you reach a large enough vaccination rate within a group this becomes the logical step. There's really no benefit to restricting people's lives anymore when the virus has become endemic and is here to stay with us, just like the 'normal flu', it's about living with it. Keeping people from becoming very ill, to dieing, was the goal of the vaccine and that has been achieved ie. hospitals are not flooded anymore, so you'll only restrict the economy if you prolong restrictions at this point.

I don't know the situation in the US but i can see that you have a vaccination rate of 56.4% as of now. I don't know where the magic number lies, combined with 'new cases', but it's substantially below Denmark (75%) that have zero restrictions aswell.
In Canada, we have a vaccination rate of over 80%. Despite this, the government is introducing increasingly draconian restrictions, including vaccine passports (in addition to mandatory mask wearing indoors, even if you are fully vaccinated).

There is no magic number. The countries that have taken the anti-freedom path will keep vaccine passports in place even if vaccination rates reach 100%. They will then force people to take regular booster shots (otherwise your passports expires).
 

zekko

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Let's say everyone gets vaccinated, given the recent spikes in cases of Israel and Singapore, what happens then?
My expectation is that the vaccine becomes an annual thing, like the flu shot, as they try to cover for expected variants.

I'm vaccinated, I think most people should get vaccinated. I'm against mandates, because I value freedom, and I think people should be able to make their own health decisions. Some people are just kooks, but some people may have valid reasons not to get the vaccine. I could understand a pregnant woman being hesitant to get it. I'm comfortable with taking care of myself, I'm not worried about what my neighbor is doing.

But another problem is how do you force them to get it? As we've seen on this forum, people have very strong opinions about this. I suspect many people would not take the vaccine if you stuck a gun in their face, and I'm not sure anyone wants to go to that extreme - or maybe they do. Should we imprison people? Arrest them? Fine them?

A lot of people are comfortable with firing people from their jobs if they don't get it, and that's the current policy in many places. But there is a labor shortage, and we are experiencing supply shortages because of the labor shortages. So we fire people who are willing to work and replace them with nonexistent workers? Do you see how we're digging ourselves into a hole here? There was a hospital in New York that was going to have to fire 20% of their staff because they wouldn't get the vaccine. I don't see firing needed hospital staff as a solution.
 

Bokanovsky

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Corrector, probably should stop posting this stuff. We’re just recycling the same debates.

I respect a person’s decision not to take the vaccine. Despite my efforts, I have close friends who refuse to but they also don’t take aspirin. They know the risks and repercussions. Conversation closed and we’ll have drinks together as normal since I’m inoculated.

This is not aimed at you but the problem with these discussions and questionable social media links is confusing the people who are undecided.. If anti-vaxxers don’t want to take it - then don’t take it! Stop trying to convince other people with misinformation or untrained medical opinion pieces.

Side effects is a bogus rebuttal as they always existed since medicine was introduced centuries ago. They are being identified because the medical communities is doing there job with risk management. I have a permanent scar on my arm from the Small Pox vaccine that was distributed in the early 70’s. With today’s attitudes and snow flakes, 3 out of 10 people would be dead from it.

Lastly that lady. She was refused for not wearing a mask, not because her vax status. If this was actively enforced, our ICU’s would be empty because you already know why they are being clogged.
Aggressive, pushy pro-vaxxers and conspiracy theorist anti-vaxxers are flip sides of the same coin. Both are equally to blame for the confusion surrounding vaccines.

The bottom line is that mRNA vaccines are experimental. They did not go through the usual clinical trials (which typically last 4-5 years).
They were approved in record time. Their potential long-term side effects are not yet fully understood (although serious short-term side effects appear to be statistically rare). You are taking a certain risk by injecting yourself with these vaccines. This has to be balanced against the fact that Covid is a dangerous virus. Catching it unvaccinated could have potential long-term health implications even for people who are otherwise healthy (although the likelihood of death is fairly negligible).

Whether tor not you decide to get vaccinated against Covid is a personal decision that everyone needs to make for themselves.
When governments and aggressive vaccine nazis try to force, pressure and bully the undecided into taking the shot, it creates the opposition reaction. People become even more mistrustful of the vaccines.
 
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Stuffnu

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I have always tried to bypass your comments on this topic as I know you are very cemented in what you believe, and I want to respect that. But I can't help to be curious and truly understand your mindset and belief system. So I want to have a civilized, respectful discussion about this with the hopes to understand and maybe learn something from an opposing view.

But let's start with this. And with all due respect, what are you so afraid of? Dying? Your loved ones dying? Infrastructure collapsing? What is it specifically about this pandemic compared to others that makes you so afraid?

People die and have to die so that we evolve and become stronger and better. Viruses and diseases are an essential part of evolution. It always has been, since the beginning of time. Our environment is the catalyst of how far we have evolved. It only takes a careful and educated research on human evolution or any species's, for that matter, evolution to understand the symbiotic relationship between organism and environment.

Even with everyone vaccinated, this virus will keep spreading, and people will continue dying until we fully adjust to this virus. Running away from it has not produced the results we hoped. And look at countries that have the highest vaccinated population, they are still being hit, if not the most hit, Israel is a prime example. So lockdowns and vaccines have not been the answer so far. And blaming people that are not vaccinated is not sustained by any substantial and unbiased scientific research.

There will be another pandemic just like this one. And another one after this one. And another one.

What is it that you are so afraid of? Nature being nature? Or realizing those who are supposed to look after you have no interest in keeping you safe or healthy? Please don't tell me you truly believe the government, the media, Pfizer, and these other pharmaceuticals are in the business of helping people since when have they created a cure for anything? They are not interested in cures, they are interested in chemical dependency and creating more holes in our bodies to generate more drugs. They are in the business of profit, not health. Please tell me you understand that.

I really want to understand why you are like Don Lemon and spreading such division, hate, and worst of all fear without wanting to understand others' beliefs (aside from yours) or being compassionate. What makes you think that someone that is has natural immunity and is perfectly healthy needs to treat her/his body like an experiment to unknown chemicals? And it cannot be the spread of the virus as we are now realizing (again, Israel, Singapore, etc) that even with full vaccination you can still spread it. Is it because you want to be right and make everyone see YOUR truth?

Finally, I want you to genuinely and sincerely tell me you to believe this specific synthetic protein-based mRNA and the measures being taken have proven to be effective and can sustain long-term solutions. I want you to tell me that unvaccinated people are truly the enemies here and are the reason why this is still not over.

It will never be over, but with time you will see that. Try to understand this isn't about a virus anymore and that division and fear will kill us faster than any past, current, or future virus.


Respectfully,

Modern Man Advice
Valid points. I’m pro mRNA because I’m fascinated with the research. There’s already ongoing clinical trials against certain cancers and autoimmune disorders.

That being said, I’m struggling why people who have fully recovered from COVID are expected to take the vaccine. I still remember as a kid it was okay to be around a friend who had Chicken Pox as long as I already had it. Natural immunity seems to be taking a back seat. Yes we are looking at efficiencies with these vaccines, but I see that as good thing as we’re always seeking improvement. If I may criticize a couple things, the word synthetic is a little misleading. All vaccines are laboratory created and though mediums may differ, we’re all bags of chemicals that can be manipulated, hopefully for the better. The other, the old statement if its more profitable in treatment or the cure. Don’t entirely disagree but this is more conspiracy than factual.

Darwin’s version of natural selection and evolution is one thing. What I honestly fear is the fragility of our global economy and health systems that has been revealed due to this virus. If the next pandemic is actually a global killer that doesn’t discriminate, our reaction will be to argue on the response and stock up on toilet paper.

God help us!!
 

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Modern Man Advice

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I take your point regarding evolution and even normalcy. By the same token your position is asking the “pro-vaccine” crowd to be willing to sacrifice their families for your ideology. That is why you get folks echoing the kind of sentiments as Don Lemon. From the opposing view, your choice says “screw your grandparents, if they get covid and die that’s on them.” Vaccines work via community protection, not nearly as much individually.

Your public health choice affects other people. It’s akin to being killed in a crash of a drunk driver. They didn’t choose to die but were killed by someone else’s choice.
I am not, which is important for me to state that I am fully aware of the possibility that I am wrong. I am not asking to willingly and consciously kill someone. I am asking to stand by your beliefs but be open to connect and learn. Together.

In fact, I was asked that scenario. What if it was my own family on the other end, those who are greatly affected by the virus. And it took me a min to reflect, and more importantly, it took for my own mom to test positive (when this first started) (My brother as well) to stand firmer by my beliefs. My beliefs were surely tested then. I ended in the same position, but that is only because I trust there is a higher purpose to the "tragedies" that happen here on Earth. One that we are not meant to understand. But my beliefs were sure tested then and were only solidified.

Needless to say, the drunk driver example is a bit extreme, and hope you can see that. But if you must know, my dad was killed by a drunk driver. And it took me years to come to terms with it. I learned that anger and fear were the true cancers of the Earth. It didn't affect the guy that killed my dad, those negative emotions only affected me. Greatly. Internally.

We must learn to let go. Let go of control. Let go of people. Let go of your thoughts. Let go of the "I am". The only reason we suffer is that we get attached. Attached to things, to people, to narratives.

Anyway, neither here nor there. I do agree there is a level of community to this debate and vaccine mandates should be discussed communally. So you are right, community is key. Not division or finger-pointing.

I really do appreciate you elaborating on your thoughts and beliefs. I am always learning from opposing views.


Modern Man Advice
 
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Bokanovsky

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But another problem is how do you force them to get it? As we've seen on this forum, people have very strong opinions about this. I suspect many people would not take the vaccine if you stuck a gun in their face, and I'm not sure anyone wants to go to that extreme - or maybe they do. Should we imprison people? Arrest them? Fine them?

A lot of people are comfortable with firing people from their jobs if they don't get it, and that's the current policy in many places. But there is a labor shortage, and we are experiencing supply shortages because of the labor shortages. So we fire people who are willing to work and replace them with nonexistent workers? Do you see how we're digging ourselves into a hole here? There was a hospital in New York that was going to have to fire 20% of their staff because they wouldn't get the vaccine. I don't see firing needed hospital staff as a solution.
What I don't understand is why would anyone want to force people to get vaccinates ageing their will? The "shortage of hospital beds" argument is pretty weak now that vaccination rates in many countries are in excess of 70%. Why are people so worked up about the fact that others may be putting themselves at risk?
 

Bible_Belt

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Pregnant women are much more likely to kill their baby by getting covid while unvaccinated than they are to miscarry after being vaccinated. Women have miscarriages all the time, inevitably some will after being vaccinated. Then that story gets shared on Facebook a million times, because dead babies provoke emotional responses and that is exactly what the Facebook ai is trying to accomplish. No one cares about boring research that contradicts their emotions.

Icu beds are completely full where I live right now, 90 percent unvaxxed covid cases. Why does any one person's personal liberty get to take away my access to emergency healthcare if I need it?
 

Bokanovsky

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I take your point regarding evolution and even normalcy. By the same token your position is asking the “pro-vaccine” crowd to be willing to sacrifice their families for your ideology. That is why you get folks echoing the kind of sentiments as Don Lemon. From the opposing view, your choice says “screw your grandparents, if they get covid and die that’s on them.” Vaccines work via community protection, not nearly as much individually.
If the grandparents are vaccinated, why would they die? Isn't that the whole point of the vaccine, to prevent people from dying?
 

EyeBRollin

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But another problem is how do you force them to get it? As we've seen on this forum, people have very strong opinions about this. I suspect many people would not take the vaccine if you stuck a gun in their face, and I'm not sure anyone wants to go to that extreme - or maybe they do. Should we imprison people? Arrest them? Fine them?

A lot of people are comfortable with firing people from their jobs if they don't get it, and that's the current policy in many places. But there is a labor shortage, and we are experiencing supply shortages because of the labor shortages. So we fire people who are willing to work and replace them with nonexistent workers? Do you see how we're digging ourselves into a hole here? There was a hospital in New York that was going to have to fire 20% of their staff because they wouldn't get the vaccine. I don't see firing needed hospital staff as a solution.
Financial consequences are the route to go.

Mandate it for employment in all client/customer facing businesses open to the public and all government agencies. I also think health insurance should carry a discount for the vaccinated. The unvaccinated should be on the hook for all of their own COVID-19 related medical bills.
 
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Modern Man Advice

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My expectation is that the vaccine becomes an annual thing, like the flu shot, as they try to cover for expected variants.

I'm vaccinated, I think most people should get vaccinated. I'm against mandates, because I value freedom, and I think people should be able to make their own health decisions. Some people are just kooks, but some people may have valid reasons not to get the vaccine. I could understand a pregnant woman being hesitant to get it. I'm comfortable with taking care of myself, I'm not worried about what my neighbor is doing.

But another problem is how do you force them to get it? As we've seen on this forum, people have very strong opinions about this. I suspect many people would not take the vaccine if you stuck a gun in their face, and I'm not sure anyone wants to go to that extreme - or maybe they do. Should we imprison people? Arrest them? Fine them?

A lot of people are comfortable with firing people from their jobs if they don't get it, and that's the current policy in many places. But there is a labor shortage, and we are experiencing supply shortages because of the labor shortages. So we fire people who are willing to work and replace them with nonexistent workers? Do you see how we're digging ourselves into a hole here? There was a hospital in New York that was going to have to fire 20% of their staff because they wouldn't get the vaccine. I don't see firing needed hospital staff as a solution.
Agree. And it is a clear reflection of whoever is mandating's mindset. I do still believe that we are acting out of fear and self-righteousness. We are acting out of the preconception of ego.

At this point, I often wonder if it is truly about community or if it is about the egotistical glorification of being on the right side of history.

Like I mentioned to the other member, my hope is that we evolve if not genetically, at least spiritually from this. That at the very least we can talk about this without getting shut down.

We, as humans, do not like to be told what to do. If I am wrong in my deepest beliefs and the vaccine is the right answer, they are taking the wrong approach. That I know.

Modern Man Advice
 

Modern Man Advice

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Valid points. I’m pro mRNA because I’m fascinated with the research. There’s already ongoing clinical trials against certain cancers and autoimmune disorders.

That being said, I’m struggling why people who have fully recovered from COVID are expected to take the vaccine. I still remember as a kid it was okay to be around a friend who had Chicken Pox as long as I already had it. Natural immunity seems to be taking a back seat. Yes we are looking at efficiencies with these vaccines, but I see that as good thing as we’re always seeking improvement. If I may criticize a couple things, the word synthetic is a little misleading. All vaccines are laboratory created and though mediums may differ, we’re all bags of chemicals that can be manipulated, hopefully for the better. The other, the old statement if its more profitable in treatment or the cure. Don’t entirely disagree but this is more conspiracy than factual.

Darwin’s version of natural selection and evolution is one thing. What I honestly fear is the fragility of our global economy and health systems that has been revealed due to this virus. If the next pandemic is actually a global killer that doesn’t discriminate, our reaction will be to argue on the response and stock up on toilet paper.

God help us!!
Agreed.

For the record, I am not against science or progress in science. I am for it, I just hope we don't think science will replace nature or a higher sense of self and purpose.

At the end of the day, that is all we have our own brains to rely on. To think critically and for ourselves. To stop allowing media, tv, corporations, etc to think for us. Or as it has been proven, to influence our opinions and beliefs.

All I have ever asked is to have the courage to question narratives and constructs. To be brave and speak up. To have the strength to stand for what you believe and be humble enough to understand your truth is only partial.

But yes, I agree. Based on how we acted and continue to act around a pandemic (which has occurred multiple times before, and worst one I must say, and will continue to occur), where did we get it wrong and how can we prevent from thinking stocking up on TP and physically fighting for TP is the answer.


Modern Man Advice
 

Bokanovsky

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For the "everyone must be forced to get vaccinated" crowd, I have a question.

Let's say a few years from now, there is another virus similar to Covid and a vaccine is developed against it. But that vaccine has a higher risk of negative side effects. Let's say that the odds of you dying from taking that vaccine are 1 in 10,000. Would you still be in favour of forcing everybody to take the shot? What if the odds of death are 1 in 1,000? 1 in 100? At what point do you draw the line, and even more importantly, who gets to decide what is the accptable level of risk if not the individual himself?
 

zekko

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I also think health insurance should carry a discount for the vaccinated. The unvaccinated should be on the hook for all of their own COVID-19 related medical bills.
That latter bit seems too harsh. Insurance (and other factors) has made severe medical care prohibitively expensive. It would be like saying people who smoke should not be covered, or people who are overweight should not be given care. I'm sure some people would be in favor of that, but I'm not. The human condition and all. I do like the idea for an insurance discount for the vaccinated.
 

Stuffnu

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Aggressive, pushy pro-vaxxers and conspiracy theorist anti-vaxxers are flip sides of the same coin. Both are equally to blame for the confusion surrounding vaccines.

The bottom line is that mRNA vaccines are experimental. They did not go through the usual clinical trials (which typically last 4-5 years).
They were approved in record time. Their potential long-term side effects are not yet fully understood (although serious short-term side effects appear to be statistically rare). You are taking a certain risk by injecting yourself with these vaccines. This has to be balanced against the fact that Covid is a dangerous virus. Catching it unvaccinated could have potential long-term health implications even for people who are otherwise healthy (although the likelihood of death is fairly negligible).

Whether tor not you decide to get vaccinated against Covid is a personal decision that everyone needs to make for themselves.
When governments and aggressive vaccine nazis try to force, pressure and bully the undecided into taking the shot, it creates the opposition reaction. People become even more mistrusting of the vaccines.
Also valid points. However the word experimental is another term that was tossed by the anti-vax.

mRNA has been around for years. The struggle was it degraded before your body was able to absorb it.. The A-Ha moment was the lipid nano-particle to encase it. Too many people associate Nano with some Sci-Fi movie they have watched - hence more conspiracies.
Allow me to simplify. Your body is an ocean. Toss a message into it, it will quickly dissolve. Put the message inside a bottle, it has a greater chance of reaching its recipient.

Yes, clinical trials take several years due to our lawsuit happy population. Government removed liabilities to fast track it and with agreement created suspicion among the masses. But guess what? It worked.
I keep hearing about the potential long term effects but funny how I don’t hear any projections on what they may be? Or perhaps the movie and ideology of “Alien” was already taken.
 
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Stuffnu

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Agreed.

For the record, I am not against science or progress in science. I am for it, I just hope we don't think science will replace nature or a higher sense of self and purpose.

At the end of the day, that is all we have our own brains to rely on. To think critically and for ourselves. To stop allowing media, tv, corporations, etc to think for us. Or as it has been proven, to influence our opinions and beliefs.

All I have ever asked is to have the courage to question narratives and constructs. To be brave and speak up. To have the strength to stand for what you believe and be humble enough to understand your truth is only partial.

But yes, I agree. Based on how we acted and continue to act around a pandemic (which has occurred multiple times before, and worst one I must say, and will continue to occur), where did we get it wrong and how can we prevent from thinking stocking up on TP and physically fighting for TP is the answer.


Modern Man Advice
Amen brother.

Critical thinking and keeping an open mind on multiple view points is a lost art.
The other pandemic is our political divisiveness. But that’s another discussion.

Good health and Safety.
D
 

Bokanovsky

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mRNA has been around for years.
mRNA may have been around for years but mRNA vaccines have not. They are experimental in a sense that they are the first of their kind. If tomorrow someone make a vaccine from Big Mac sauce, it would also be experimental even though Big Mac sauce has been around for years.

Government removed liabilities to fast track it and with agreement created suspicion among the masses. But guess what? It worked.
It worked so well that the government can now reinstate liability without much objection from big pharma. Right? Right???
 

Stuffnu

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mRNA may have been around for years but mRNA vaccines have not. They are experimental in a sense that they are the first of their kind. If tomorrow someone make a vaccine from Big Mac sauce, it would also be experimental even though Big Mac sauce has been around for years.


It worked so well that the government can now reinstate liability without much objection from big pharma. Right? Right???
All good bro. Don’t take it, it‘s your body.
I C U later.
 

EyeBRollin

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That latter bit seems too harsh. Insurance (and other factors) has made severe medical care prohibitively expensive. It would be like saying people who smoke should not be covered, or people who are overweight should not be given care. I'm sure some people would be in favor of that, but I'm not. The human condition and all. I do like the idea for an insurance discount for the vaccinated.
Death is harsh. Where is the empathy for those who can’t find a hospital bed due to unvaccinated COVID-19 patients? I don’t like smoking or obesity either but those are chronic long term habits. Frankly, I think not giving a lung or liver transplant to a smoker or drinker is appropriate.
 

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There has been plenty time and opportunity for everyone in Norway to get the two shots by the time they lifted restrictions. Those who didn't go get it has made their choice, the majority shouldn't suffer more of these restrictions because a minority refuses to protect themselves.

I went out to a nightclub last week, the place was absolutely packed with people having a good time. I didn't know how much I had missed it until I was there. Apart from the occasional person still wearing a mask in public I'd say everything is back to normal, except for in the hospitals, they're still a bit careful.

I don't care about the virus or unvaccinated people, I'm protected after all. They are not and if they want to risk serious illness I say we let them, their infection isn't a serious threat to anyone except other unvaccinated people. They have a choice, to take it or not to take it, one of them has a higher chance of death.

Norway is generally great. I'm not surrounded by poorly educated and irrational people pinning everything under the sun on politics, religion, corruption or any number of conspiracies conjured out of thin air. There are some idiots, but everyone else just laughs at them or ignore them.
 
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