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Norway's approach for covid

corrector

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Just saw this video overnight:


As the video says, Norway has removed its restrictions and is encouraging everyone to be vaccinated.

The point of the video is that this country is not demonizing or stigmatizing people who have chosen, for personal, religious or a wide-range of medical reasons not to take the vaccine. They have a solid vaccination rate.

This is unlike my jurisdiction, where they have vaccine mandates all over the place, employment, restaurants, gym, etc.... despite having solid vaccine coverage here as well. People who have chosen not to take the vaccine are demonized and are made to feel like criminals for just existing without taking the vaccine.

Here's an article about a patient for another health-condition (unrelated to covid) being turned away from a hospital, which is publicly covered by health insurance, because she was unvaccinated:

The lady in question had a heart or serious issue and was concerned about the side-effect of an mRNA vaccine on developing or worsening heart symptoms. Not even a political/religious reasons, and they didn't care if she got a side-effect or hurt, they just don't want to see her.

I'm still eventually considering to take this vaccine, but find the trend worrisome. If vaccinated people are so worried about catching covid from someone who is unvaccinated but does not have covid, then what is wrong with this world?
 
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Bible_Belt

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There was a funeral held in my town last weekend for a guy who did not die of covid, but died because the nearest hospital that would take him was 5 hours away. Everyone else's icu beds were full of covid patients. He coded and died a few hours into the ambulance ride. There is a good chance a hospital could have saved him. He was of course not well already, but that could have been a healthy person who had been in an accident.
 

corrector

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There was a funeral held in my town last weekend for a guy who did not die of covid, but died because the nearest hospital that would take him was 5 hours away. Everyone else's icu beds were full of covid patients. He coded and died a few hours into the ambulance ride. There is a good chance a hospital could have saved him. He was of course not well already, but that could have been a healthy person who had been in an accident.
Like I said, I don't have covid, and neither does my mother. If people want to assume that I have covid because I'm not vaccinated, and then want to assume I'm somehow anti-mask, anti-common sense and anti-this or that, then that is still a type of discrimination. Just because someone refused to take the vaccine because of a religious or medical reason does not make them a covidiot.

You can not tell me that everyone on those ICUs were following social distancing, living like a hermit, wearing n95 masks and praying to Jesus and confessing Psalm 91 and were all hyper-vigilant.

Also were you in a Red-state? I hope not, but then its also an apples and oranges comparison if this is the case. Ontario, Canada, is more vaccinated than some of the Blue states so we don't have issues in our hospitals.
 

Who Dares Win

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Cant really compare norway to bigger heterogenous countries.

That country comes right after Switzerland in terms of civilization, economics, freedom and average IQ of the citizens.

Those are countries where the government respect the citizens and the citizens follow the laws cause they believe in that and not cause they are afraid of a punishment.
 

Bokanovsky

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There was a funeral held in my town last weekend for a guy who did not die of covid, but died because the nearest hospital that would take him was 5 hours away. Everyone else's icu beds were full of covid patients. He coded and died a few hours into the ambulance ride. There is a good chance a hospital could have saved him. He was of course not well already, but that could have been a healthy person who had been in an accident.
Stuff like this happened all the time before Covid.
 

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Billtx49

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Those are countries where the government respect the citizens and the citizens follow the laws cause they believe in that and not cause they are afraid of a punishment.
Positive reinforcement vs. a negative public narrative. Night and day results difference …
 

zekko

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Also were you in a Red-state? I hope not, but then its also an apples and oranges comparison if this is the case.
Don't believe the media's hateful garbage nonsense about red states. Many red states have better vaccination rates than some blue states.
 

zekko

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Which red states have higher vaccination rates than blue states?
Florida, Nebraska, and Iowa have higher rates than Illinois and Michigan, for example.
 

bcude

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Norway has a vaccination rate of 68% as of now. When you reach a large enough vaccination rate within a group this becomes the logical step. There's really no benefit to restricting people's lives anymore when the virus has become endemic and is here to stay with us, just like the 'normal flu', it's about living with it. Keeping people from becoming very ill, to dieing, was the goal of the vaccine and that has been achieved ie. hospitals are not flooded anymore, so you'll only restrict the economy if you prolong restrictions at this point.

I don't know the situation in the US but i can see that you have a vaccination rate of 56.4% as of now. I don't know where the magic number lies, combined with 'new cases', but it's substantially below Denmark (75%) that have zero restrictions aswell.
 

Who Dares Win

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Italy has one of the highest vaccination rate yet its still the country with most limitations, clubs are closed and you need masks basically in any public space kinda the opposite of norway...its also the country were the current prime minister didnt win any election but was appointed from the president without even a party to support him.

The man is draghi former president of the european central bank.

Has to be a coincidence right?
 

EyeBRollin

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Florida, Nebraska, and Iowa have higher rates than Illinois and Michigan, for example.
Florida has a lot of old people so it makes sense. I wouldn’t hold up Michigan and Illinois as “blue states” compared to NY, NJ, Massachusetts, Connecticut, California, and Maryland.
 

Bible_Belt

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Florida has a lot of old people so it makes sense. I wouldn’t hold up Michigan and Illinois as “blue states” compared to NY, NJ, Massachusetts, Connecticut, California, and Maryland.
Fwiw I'm in Illinois. Chicago and metro east st Louis are blue, the rest of the state is red. It's a blue state by population, but geographically almost all of the counties are red. Southern illinois sided with the south in the civil war. Culturally, it might as well be Alabama.

I should have mentioned above in the story about the guy who died in the ambulance, he was in his late 40s. That's why a hospital likely could have saved him.
 

Stuffnu

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Corrector, probably should stop posting this stuff. We’re just recycling the same debates.

I respect a person’s decision not to take the vaccine. Despite my efforts, I have close friends who refuse to but they also don’t take aspirin. They know the risks and repercussions. Conversation closed and we’ll have drinks together as normal since I’m inoculated.

This is not aimed at you but the problem with these discussions and questionable social media links is confusing the people who are undecided.. If anti-vaxxers don’t want to take it - then don’t take it! Stop trying to convince other people with misinformation or untrained medical opinion pieces.

Side effects is a bogus rebuttal as they always existed since medicine was introduced centuries ago. They are being identified because the medical communities is doing there job with risk management. I have a permanent scar on my arm from the Small Pox vaccine that was distributed in the early 70’s. With today’s attitudes and snow flakes, 3 out of 10 people would be dead from it.

Lastly that lady. She was refused for not wearing a mask, not because her vax status. If this was actively enforced, our ICU’s would be empty because you already know why they are being clogged.
 

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EyeBRollin

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I respect a person’s decision not to take the vaccine.
In my opinion this is a mistake. We don’t allow unvaccinated schoolchildren to mingle. This is no different. The vaccine mandates are coming months late. A lot of people have died because of “respecting the personal choice of others not to take the vaccine.” This has been a failure of leadership and public policy.
 

Modern Man Advice

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In my opinion this is a mistake. We don’t allow unvaccinated schoolchildren to mingle. This is no different. The vaccine mandates are coming months late. A lot of people have died because of “respecting the personal choice of others not to take the vaccine.” This has been a failure of leadership and public policy.
I have always tried to bypass your comments on this topic as I know you are very cemented in what you believe, and I want to respect that. But I can't help to be curious and truly understand your mindset and belief system. So I want to have a civilized, respectful discussion about this with the hopes to understand and maybe learn something from an opposing view.

But let's start with this. And with all due respect, what are you so afraid of? Dying? Your loved ones dying? Infrastructure collapsing? What is it specifically about this pandemic compared to others that makes you so afraid?

People die and have to die so that we evolve and become stronger and better. Viruses and diseases are an essential part of evolution. It always has been, since the beginning of time. Our environment is the catalyst of how far we have evolved. It only takes a careful and educated research on human evolution or any species's, for that matter, evolution to understand the symbiotic relationship between organism and environment.

Even with everyone vaccinated, this virus will keep spreading, and people will continue dying until we fully adjust to this virus. Running away from it has not produced the results we hoped. And look at countries that have the highest vaccinated population, they are still being hit, if not the most hit, Israel is a prime example. So lockdowns and vaccines have not been the answer so far. And blaming people that are not vaccinated is not sustained by any substantial and unbiased scientific research.

There will be another pandemic just like this one. And another one after this one. And another one.

What is it that you are so afraid of? Nature being nature? Or realizing those who are supposed to look after you have no interest in keeping you safe or healthy? Please don't tell me you truly believe the government, the media, Pfizer, and these other pharmaceuticals are in the business of helping people since when have they created a cure for anything? They are not interested in cures, they are interested in chemical dependency and creating more holes in our bodies to generate more drugs. They are in the business of profit, not health. Please tell me you understand that.

I really want to understand why you are like Don Lemon and spreading such division, hate, and worst of all fear without wanting to understand others' beliefs (aside from yours) or being compassionate. What makes you think that someone that is has natural immunity and is perfectly healthy needs to treat her/his body like an experiment to unknown chemicals? And it cannot be the spread of the virus as we are now realizing (again, Israel, Singapore, etc) that even with full vaccination you can still spread it. Is it because you want to be right and make everyone see YOUR truth?

Finally, I want you to genuinely and sincerely tell me you to believe this specific synthetic protein-based mRNA and the measures being taken have proven to be effective and can sustain long-term solutions. I want you to tell me that unvaccinated people are truly the enemies here and are the reason why this is still not over.

It will never be over, but with time you will see that. Try to understand this isn't about a virus anymore and that division and fear will kill us faster than any past, current, or future virus.


Respectfully,

Modern Man Advice
 

EyeBRollin

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I have always tried to bypass your comments on this topic as I know you are very cemented in what you believe, and I want to respect that. But I can't help to be curious and truly understand your mindset and belief system. So I want to have a civilized, respectful discussion about this with the hopes to understand and maybe learn something from an opposing view.

But let's start with this. And with all due respect, what are you so afraid of? Dying? Your loved ones dying? Infrastructure collapsing? What is it specifically about this pandemic compared to others that makes you so afraid?
I appreciate the effort here, thanks. For me it is not about fear. The pandemic has been a drag on society both socially and economically. This is about getting to the other side. Restoring as much “normalcy” as possible. We can ignore the virus completely but that tanks the hospital system and a lot of people will die.

People die and have to die so that we evolve and become stronger and better. Viruses and diseases are an essential part of evolution. It always has been, since the beginning of time. Our environment is the catalyst of how far we have evolved. It only takes a careful and educated research on human evolution or any species's, for that matter, evolution to understand the symbiotic relationship between organism and environment.
I fundamentally disagree with just letting people die. There is no need for millions of senseless deaths when modern medicine has a better alternative.

Even with everyone vaccinated, this virus will keep spreading, and people will continue dying until we fully adjust to this virus. Running away from it has not produced the results we hoped. And look at countries that have the highest vaccinated population, they are still being hit, if not the most hit, Israel is a prime example. So lockdowns and vaccines have not been the answer so far. And blaming people that are not vaccinated is not sustained by any substantial and unbiased scientific research.
This is just not true. Lockdowns were highly successful at preventing the spread. However, they are only a mitigation system to preserve hospital capacity. We cannot have infinite lockdowns.

The vaccines grant partial immunity against the spread and almost full protection from the severest cases. That is preferable to simply letting millions of people die.

It is not just Covid-19 at stake here; it’s the ICU capacity of the health system. Suddenly your car accident has a higher probability of being fatal because medical resources are needed for covid patients.

There will be another pandemic just like this one. And another one after this one. And another one.

What is it that you are so afraid of? Nature being nature? Or realizing those who are supposed to look after you have no interest in keeping you safe or healthy? Please don't tell me you truly believe the government, the media, Pfizer, and these other pharmaceuticals are in the business of helping people since when have they created a cure for anything? They are not interested in cures, they are interested in chemical dependency and creating more holes in our bodies to generate more drugs. They are in the business of profit, not health. Please tell me you understand that.
This is a false choice. The role of government is citizen welfare and regulation. The role of corporations is to make profit. Preventing deaths of the population is in the interest of both. Heck, even corrupt politicians have a self-interest in keeping their constituents alive.

I really want to understand why you are like Don Lemon and spreading such division, hate, and worst of all fear without wanting to understand others' beliefs (aside from yours) or being compassionate. What makes you think that someone that is has natural immunity and is perfectly healthy needs to treat her/his body like an experiment to unknown chemicals? And it cannot be the spread of the virus as we are now realizing (again, Israel, Singapore, etc) that even with full vaccination you can still spread it. Is it because you want to be right and make everyone see YOUR truth?
The information presented here is simply untrue. There is no “natural immunity” from COVID-19. Immunity is acquired from exposure to the virus either by contracting it or vaccination. Said immunity likely wanes over time.

I want society back to normal. (Or as close as it was). That means COVID-19 reduced to a minor nuisance like a common cold. My goal is not to convince you to my point of view. The only way back to “normalcy” is for everyone to get vaccinated.

The simple solution is to mandate it. Vaccines are mandated for schoolchildren. This is not revolutionary.

Finally, I want you to genuinely and sincerely tell me you to believe this specific synthetic protein-based mRNA and the measures being taken have proven to be effective and can sustain long-term solutions. I want you to tell me that unvaccinated people are truly the enemies here and are the reason why this is still not over.

It will never be over, but with time you will see that. Try to understand this isn't about a virus anymore and that division and fear will kill us faster than any past, current, or future virus.


Respectfully,

Modern Man Advice
There are no guarantees. We know that vaccination reduces transmission, hospitalizations, and deaths. The outcomes are better than doing nothing. In the end that is all that matters - results.
 

zekko

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Fwiw I'm in Illinois. Chicago and metro east st Louis are blue, the rest of the state is red. It's a blue state by population, but geographically almost all of the counties are red.
You can say that about most states though. The big cities tend to be blue, while the rest of the counties tend to be red. Even a heavily blue state like New York looks red when viewed on a county map. The political divide tends to be urban vs. rural and suburbs.
 

Modern Man Advice

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I appreciate the effort here, thanks. For me it is not about fear. The pandemic has been a drag on society both socially and economically. This is about getting to the other side. Restoring as much “normalcy” as possible. We can ignore the virus completely but that tanks the hospital system and a lot of people will die.



I fundamentally disagree with just letting people die. There is no need for millions of senseless deaths when modern medicine has a better alternative.



This is just not true. Lockdowns were highly successful at preventing the spread. However, they are only a mitigation system to preserve hospital capacity. We cannot have infinite lockdowns.

The vaccines grant partial immunity against the spread and almost full protection from the severest cases. That is preferable to simply letting millions of people die.

It is not just Covid-19 at stake here; it’s the ICU capacity of the health system. Suddenly your car accident has a higher probability of being fatal because medical resources are needed for covid patients.



This is a false choice. The role of government is citizen welfare and regulation. The role of corporations is to make profit. Preventing deaths of the population is in the interest of both. Heck, even corrupt politicians have a self-interest in keeping their constituents alive.



The information presented here is simply untrue. There is no “natural immunity” from COVID-19. Immunity is acquired from exposure to the virus either by contracting it or vaccination. Said immunity likely wanes over time.

I want society back to normal. (Or as close as it was). That means COVID-19 reduced to a minor nuisance like a common cold. My goal is not to convince you to my point of view. The only way back to “normalcy” is for everyone to get vaccinated.

The simple solution is to mandate it. Vaccines are mandated for schoolchildren. This is not revolutionary.



There are no guarantees. We know that vaccination reduces transmission, hospitalizations, and deaths. The outcomes are better than doing nothing. In the end that is all that matters - results.
First off, thanks for taking the time to elaborate on your thoughts and beliefs. Like I said in my post, I respect your opinion and beliefs and at the end of the day, that is all we have is understanding and respect.

I just don't think contradicting and labeling other people's statements false is productive, either. Especially, given your perspective is limited to your perception and exposure to the situation and that I assume you are not an expert on the field (virologist, scientists, medical degree of some sort). Think of it in terms of blue pill vs red pill, pointing fingers and stating the negative has not proven to make things better between men and women. That is essentially the flaw in modern feminism, the imaginary competition of which gender has suffered the most so the other can feel the same. But I understand why you would have a different opinion, your experience with this pandemic (assuming this is the first one you experience or are familiar with) can shape your perspective. Just understand, despite what you might hear on the media or the internet (which is the point of the OP), other people's experiences have been very different. Including mine.

You are right, miraculous natural immunity does not exist. But I was hoping you would think critically and realize that whenever somebody refers to natural immunity, it means people that have been exposed to it and naturally created the necessary antibodies to fight it off and were only affected minimally. I, and many others like me, are I guess you can call it "fortunate" to have that type of immunity. Like me, many others have gotten it and didn't feel even a hint of it.

And believe me, I know how it sounds when I say people need to die, it sounds like Nazi Germany. So let me elaborate, in evolution, there is a fundamental need for natural genetical modification. In other words, it will not serve the species (long-term, keep that word in mind, long-term) to save genes that are not suitable for the environment or future events like this. We need the naturally strongest genes to prevail and shape future generations and reiterations of humanity. We are playing God in this event, we are not. We will never be. And I know it doesn't sound compassionate, but sometimes nature isn't. Especially if we don't deserve the same respect we give it. And trust me, we do not. We take it for granted.

But if anything, I want you to take this with you because I know you will disagree regardless. More than the physical genetical modifications that viruses like this cause, we need a rather deeper modification or transcend to occur. One that is not tangible. One that is called consciousness. Regardless of truth vs lie, right vs wrong, etc vs etc, we need to progress in the realm of consciousness. However, that is critically hindered when we do not attempt to connect with each other. In other words, when we try to disconnect aka divide. And to most of us, that is the real tragedy. It is not disagreeing.

When Don Lemon says things like "****'em, let's leave them behind" that shows his level of humanity and conscious intelligence. And that is exactly the attitude that will not incentivize anyone to follow mandates.

Let's say everyone gets vaccinated, given the recent spikes in cases of Israel and Singapore, what happens then? Another iteration of the vaccine until we get it right? You see, one thing we do fundamentally disagree with is the concept of normalcy. Let go of that, what was will never be. Who you were stopped to exist. Accept that such a thing as normalcy is a social construct. This is the normalcy which is why some countries (and more to come) will simply say "let's try something different than the last 2 years, and just live with covid-19". When you state the vaccine and social mandates outcomes are better doing nothing, it can be misleading because we haven't tried "nothing". What we have tried so far are lockdowns and vaccine mandates. That is what these countries are doing now and what most "anti-vaxxers" are wanting to try, nothing. Accept it, live with it, and trust humanity is strong enough to progress. You see, science is a new field relative to human evolution and even more Earth's time in this galaxy. Doing nothing is more natural when you think about it. And we are here. Stronger, smarter, etc. This too shall pass.

At the end of the day, I don't intend to have all the answers or be right, I am aware I can be wrong and my perspective, like yours, is limited which is why I ask questions and more importantly actively listen. I just know that forcing the other 50% of humanity into something they do not genuinely believe in and that even you know it is not fully effective will be a steep uphill to walk on. You catch more flies with honey if flies are what you are looking for.

Again, I appreciate your response. I hope to see your lineage in generations to come if it's meant to be.

Bless.


Modern Man Advice
 
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