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Friendzone is a MYTH

GreatHornedOwl

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This is a scare tactic used by pickup artists and dating coaches to encourage guys to take action. They think they have to be direct, make their intentions known right away, to avoid falling in this imaginary trap. Ironically, this is what lands guys in there to begin with. What they don't realize is a woman has to have FEELINGS for you in order for this action that you're taking to work. You have to get their EMOTIONS invested in the situation before this can be effective.

Just because you have your mind made up that you like a woman, and have decided you're going to show her without hesitating, doesn't mean she's going to reciprocate. What you're basically trying to do is CONVINCE the woman to like you. You're better off saying "I like you, so, you should like me too." Because that's what you're communicating. You're so wrapped up in your own emotions, you're not aware that the woman herself feels nothing. The reason you do this, is because you need confirmation that she feels the same way about you first, before you feel comfortable proceeding and showing her how cool of a guy you are. It's insecurity, and women don't reward that behavior. You can take shortcuts in your car, but not in the attraction process with women. That behavior is not rewarded.

Your actions without emotional investment from a woman means NOTHING.

This is precisely the reason certain men struggle with women. They don't comprehend this. They know how they feel, but they are not calibrated and in tune with how their behavior is perceived and processed by a woman which dictates how she feels about you. It's a form of social ineptness.

Take a woman who is in a 3 year relationship, and breaks it off because she met someone else. What happened here? You think the guy she met spilled his guts right away and tried to hook up with her through PUA tactics? No. It wouldn't have worked. She would have said "I have a boyfriend." It was insidious and happened gradually over time to the point her emotions became stronger for the new guy through desirable personality traits that he displayed, causing her to have feelings for him. This has to happen first in order for anything to materialize.

The poor guy who got blindsided and received the dreaded "I've met someone else" talk. You notice it's never "someone else met me"? This often goes overlooked. When someone says "I've met someone else", what they're really saying is "I have feelings for someone else." Feelings are emotions.

What am I getting at here? This "friendzone" business is very misleading, and extremely detrimental. The fear of falling in this "place" removes crucial social constructs that are REQUIRED to allow another person to develop feelings for you.

A persuasive argument is doing favors for a woman. "You should never go to a woman's place and unclog her bathroom sink, unless you're a simp." Who is going to be in a position to enter a woman's house in such close proximity to her personal belongings including her bras, panties and other personal items? A plumber, or a guy she's sleeping with who she already has feelings for. It's an ad hominem argument taking issue with the guy itself, rather than the behavior he is displaying, while being unaware and discrediting the context of the situation.

It's not about being a nice guy or a jerk. It's not even about confidence.

What's going to determine your success with women is recognizing and understanding emotions, and the ability to display behavior that will cause those emotions to spike which will produce a woman to have feelings for you.
 

Mike32ct

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We can agree to disagree on the existence of “friendzone.”

But it’s generally understood to mean that you have no chance with a girl because of one of two reasons:

1. You are not her type physically, and she can never see herself being intimate with you. It’s over before it started.

2. She was attracted to you for a while, but you did not show interest in dating her during that time. She gave up on you and lost any romantic/sexual interest in you.

The reason PUA gurus harp on making a move quickly is because a lot of guys wait too long and end up in #2. (If you’re in #1, whether you wait or act is a moot point.)

But I agree with you that moving TOO QUICKLY is also counterproductive. She might like your look, but if she hasn’t developed any feelings or “chemistry” yet, and you hit on her, you will weird her out.*

*This whole discussion presumes that it’s a social circle chick that you have a fair amount of time to interact with. (Not a random encounter or ONS pickup.)
 

GreatHornedOwl

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We can agree to disagree on the existence of “friendzone.”

But it’s generally understood to mean that you have no chance with a girl because of one of two reasons:

1. You are not her type physically, and she can never see herself being intimate with you. It’s over before it started.

2. She was attracted to you for a while, but you did not show interest in dating her during that time. She gave up on you and lost any romantic/sexual interest in you.

The reason PUA gurus harp on making a move quickly is because a lot of guys wait too long and end up in #2. (If you’re in #1, whether you wait or act is a moot point.)

But I agree with you that moving TOO QUICKLY is also counterproductive. She might like your look, but if she hasn’t developed any feelings or “chemistry” yet, and you hit on her, you will weird her out.*

*This whole discussion presumes that it’s a social circle chick that you have a fair amount of time to interact with. (Not a random encounter or ONS pickup.)
1.) How do you know if you're her type? You don't. I'm assuming your answer is going to be you will find out once you make a move, which proves my point that her emotions have no chance to get invested in the situation because you're too focused on your own.

2.) Let's assume she was attracted. That means she's emotionally invested. But because no interest was shown during that "time", she moved on and lost interest? What are you basing this on? And how much time has passed here? 2 weeks? 5 years? Let's narrow this down a bit. Women don't think "If he doesn't ask me out by a certain period of time, I'm going to turn off my feeling for him." Emotions don't work like that. What if you didn't ask her out because you started dating somebody else? That would raise her emotions even higher for you. She might "move on" logically, but not emotionally. It would spike jealousy because she has perceived your emotions to be elsewhere with another woman. I'm not saying this is the case, I'm just using an example off the top of my head.

3.) Yes, this is based on "social circle" game. But that's a very broad term and isn't strictly limited to people in your "friend group". Being in a position to have repeated exposure to a woman is going to give you the best chance to raise her emotions and demonstrate attractive behavior, which produces emotions and causes her to have feelings for you.

This isn't an attack on you Mike, but I can tell you're speaking from pickup logic, which is very black and white. It's the stuff in the gray area that determines how things play out.
 

metalwater

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slightly agree with Owl. friendzone exists partially because it can lead to intimacy. if that is intimacy is high-interest is definitely in question, but it can and often does lead to some intimacy. it is one of the paths that hypergamy uses.

we try to learn how to activate lover behavior but provider choice can be also targeted and taken away. provider of status, money, safety, tingles, and so on.

use all the paths available.
 

Mike32ct

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1.) How do you know if you're her type? You don't. I'm assuming your answer is going to be you will find out once you make a move, which proves my point that her emotions have no chance to get invested in the situation because you're too focused on your own.

You won’t know 100% if you’re her type until you make a move or she makes one on you. The reason some guys stall too long is because they are trying to “stack evidence” that she is definitely attracted before he risks rejection. Or he fears she ISN’T attracted and really doesn’t want to find out. So he’s stays in limbo by just being friendly to her only.

2.) Let's assume she was attracted. That means she's emotionally invested. But because no interest was shown during that "time", she moved on and lost interest? What are you basing this on? And how much time has passed here? 2 weeks? 5 years? Let's narrow this down a bit. Women don't think "If he doesn't ask me out by a certain period of time, I'm going to turn off my feeling for him." Emotions don't work like that. What if you didn't ask her out because you started dating somebody else? That would raise her emotions even higher for you. She might "move on" logically, but not emotionally. It would spike jealousy because she has perceived your emotions to be elsewhere with another woman. I'm not saying this is the case, I'm just using an example off the top of head.

The concern is she could feel hurt/disappointed that you never made a move. You gave her essentially a soft rejection from her perspective. And she could then turn her attention to other guys.

3.) Yes, this is based on "social circle" game. But that's a very broad term and isn't strictly limited to people in your "friend group". Being in a position to have repeated exposure to a woman is going to give you the best chance to raise her emotions and demonstrate attractive behavior, which produces emotions and causes her to have feelings for you.

I generally agree with this.

This isn't an attack on you Mike, but I can tell you're speaking from pickup logic, which is very black and white. It's the stuff in the gray area that determines how things play out.
No problem. This a friendly discussion. You’re a long time solid poster. No offense is intended or taken.

My perspective no doubt has some pickup influence.
 

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Hamurabimbi

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We can agree to disagree on the existence of “friendzone.”

But it’s generally understood to mean that you have no chance with a girl because of one of two reasons:

1. You are not her type physically, and she can never see herself being intimate with you. It’s over before it started.

2. She was attracted to you for a while, but you did not show interest in dating her during that time. She gave up on you and lost any romantic/sexual interest in you.

The reason PUA gurus harp on making a move quickly is because a lot of guys wait too long and end up in #2. (If you’re in #1, whether you wait or act is a moot point.)

But I agree with you that moving TOO QUICKLY is also counterproductive. She might like your look, but if she hasn’t developed any feelings or “chemistry” yet, and you hit on her, you will weird her out.*

*This whole discussion presumes that it’s a social circle chick that you have a fair amount of time to interact with. (Not a random encounter or ONS pickup.)
I agree. #2 is real. However, there is a very small, but not 0 chance of reversing this. Better to act quick. I’ve fvcked up this.
 

Mike32ct

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I agree. #2 is real. However, there is a very small, but not 0 chance of reversing this. Better to act quick. I’ve fvcked up this.
Yup. I messed that up royally with a recent “crush.” She started referring to me (to others) as her “friend” and then started dating this other guy, and the relationship appears pretty solid at this time.
 
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GreatHornedOwl

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Yup. I messed that up royally with a recent “crush.” She started referring to me (to others) as her “friend” and then started dating this other guy, and the relationship appears pretty solid at this time.
She referred to you as a "friend" and then started dating someone else? This tells me her emotional investment in you was low, which would have nothing to do with thinking your chances were ruined because you waited too long, which further reinforces my point.

This is exactly the message I was conveying in my post; implying the reason this happened is because you didn't rush in and announce your interest, which has no bearing on whether she reciprocates those feelings. This other guy was able to properly raise her emotions, to the point he is now dating her. You are falsely attributing your lack of action (expressing your interest) as the reason. How you feel has nothing to do with how she feels.
 

Mike32ct

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She referred to you as a "friend" and then started dating someone else? This tells me her emotional investment in you was low, which would have nothing to do with thinking your chances were ruined because you waited too long, which further reinforces my point.

This is exactly the message I was conveying in my post; implying the reason this happened is because you didn't rush in and announce your interest, which has no bearing on whether she reciprocates those feelings. This other guy was able to properly raise her emotions, to the point he is now dating her. You are falsely attributing your lack of action (expressing your interest) as the reason. How you feel has nothing to do with how she feels.
I agree 100% that how she feels is what ultimately matters. In my recent case, yes, I agree that her emotional investment in me was way lower than I thought (or hoped for).

While it’s too late for that chick, in general, what should a guy do to raise a chick’s emotions?
 

GreatHornedOwl

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I agree 100% that how she feels is what ultimately matters. In my recent case, yes, I agree that her emotional investment in me was way lower than I thought (or hoped for).

While it’s too late for that chick, in general, what should a guy do to raise a chick’s emotions?
In order to raise a woman's emotions, you have to first realize that how you think she should react to your display of emotions doesn't matter. It's how she feels based on her emotions from behavior she sees. You have to separate the two and cannot let that get in the way and cloud your judgement. The second thing to understand is anytime your emotions are in an elevated state, the other persons typically aren't. Ever wonder why the girl you aren't interested in likes you? It's not because you don't care, or because you aren't interested, it's because your emotions are not in an elevated state. In other words, you not being interested is a symptom of behavior you are displaying which is indicating your emotions are absent, causing her interest to spike. It's very subtle. Whether she thinks you aren't interested or isn't quite sure, it doesn't matter. It causes her emotions to rise because she is at the very least uncertain of yours.

Guess what takes away that element of surprise? You broadcasting your interest right away, which is what dating coaches and pickup artists tell you to do. They're inadvertently telling you to confess your emotions, which as I mentioned has no effect on how the woman feels about you.

Let's look at jealousy. It's a universally undesirable emotion. Guys on this forum warn all the time to avoid it, because it makes you look needy, which is true. But why? Because when you display jealousy, your emotions are elevated, but the other persons aren't. People subconsciously communicate with jealousy that they like the other person too much, and that's a turn off. The reason it's a turnoff is because the person the jealousy is directed towards feels nothing. All of the emotions are dwelling within the person who is jealous, and they mistakenly believe because they feel a certain way, it's the responsibility of the other person to reinforce that. People don't want someone to like them too much, because it doesn't give them a chance to like someone else too much, which is what raises their emotions.
 

Robert28

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The friendzone is absolutely real and anyone that claims it isn’t either doesn’t have much experience with women, is something Uber Chad that would never be friendzoned anyways, or some raging feminist that tries to downplay the reality of it.
 

eli77

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robert greene has a whole chapter dedicated to this in his book the art of seduction:)
 

Igetit!

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This is a scare tactic used by pickup artists and dating coaches to encourage guys to take action.
Disagree.....

Maybe pickup artists and dating coaches do use warning of the friendzone to motivate guys to take action,but they didn't create it for that purpose. The friendzone was around LONG BEFORE the PUA movement started.

The friendzone IS REAL. I know it is,because I fell in it one,two.....10,000 times before.....in my younger days before I "got" it.

I have a PHD in Friendzonology. NO ONE got friendzoned more than I did. It happened so much,I actually got to the point I could "sense" it starting to happen with a girl before it even came to pass....but I couldn't stop it from happening because I didn't know what I was doing that was causing it. I know NOW....but it was a NIGHTMARE back in my late teens to early 20s.


They think they have to be direct, make their intentions known right away, to avoid falling in this imaginary trap.
You DO. Letting a girl know you have interest as soon as possible gives you the BEST CHANCE of making something romantic/sexual happening. There's no NEUTRAL GROUND with a woman as far as HER EMOTIONS/FEELINGS are concerned.
She either sees you in a sexual light....or she don't. She either feels something towards you......or she don't.


Have you ever walked into a room at night? There's two ways you can have darkness in a room.

1: You can turn the light switch off.

Know what the other is? You can walk into a room that's already dark...and simply DO NOTHING.....as in don't flip the switch on.


With a woman,you can TURN HER OFF......either by your words or behavior. Or,you can do NOTHING......as in don't show interest....talk to her as just another person on the planet. If she's at a counter,you walk up,conduct your business,then go on. You didn't turn her off with some attraction-killing words or behavior,but you didn't flirt/compliment/show sexual interest either.

If you come in contact with her MULTIPLE TIMES,over a long period of time....NOT SHOWING INTEREST....she'll get used to you being that way. In essense,you'll get friendzoned by DEFAULT.


This is why when a guy does finally make a move on a chick he's had lots of contact with WITHOUT being sexual or showing some type of interest,you get the "I don't see you THAT WAY".....or "I don't like you LIKE THAT" type comments.


It's not the girl's fault.


Ironically, this is what lands guys in there to begin with. What they don't realize is a woman has to have FEELINGS for you in order for this action that you're taking to work. You have to get their EMOTIONS invested in the situation before this can be effective.
Ok,question.....

You say the girl has to have feelings first before the action to work,that you have to get her emotions invested BEFORE being upfront can be effective. Ok......HOW? How do you do this?


I'm in a store....see some cute chick I've never seen before,would like to take her out. I say you have to be upfront about your interest.
You say I have to get her emotionally invested FIRST. How would you suggest this be done? I do KINDA agree with you.


Just because you have your mind made up that you like a woman, and have decided you're going to show her without hesitating, doesn't mean she's going to reciprocate.

Uhh......true......but......this is kinda OFF TOPIC. I'm going by THE TITLE of this thread. It's not about whether she reciprocates or not. Not about whether she rejects you or not. It's about whether the friendzone is a MYTH or not.....her saying yes or no to a date with you has NO BEARING on that.

And I'm saying being upfront WILL AUTOMATICALLY KILL ANY CHANCES of you getting friendzoned......whether she says yes or no.

If she says yes,you get a date.
If she says no,you move on to the next girl.

Where's the friendzone in that?



What you're basically trying to do is CONVINCE the woman to like you. You're better off saying "I like you, so, you should like me too." Because that's what you're communicating. You're so wrapped up in your own emotions, you're not aware that the woman herself feels nothing. The reason you do this, is because you need confirmation that she feels the same way about you first, before you feel comfortable proceeding and showing her how cool of a guy you are. It's insecurity, and women don't reward that behavior. You can take shortcuts in your car, but not in the attraction process with women. That behavior is not rewarded.
ok....uhhh.....kinda too much to unpack here. Maybe some guys do this: I don't know. I just know I DON'T.

MY purpose in being upfront is to IMMEDIATELY present myself as a possible sexual option. See this way,she CAN'T SAY "I don't see you that way" because I presented myself "that way" FROM THE VERY BEGINNING. She knows from the getgo I see her sexually....as a WOMAN. I inserted the idea of HER AND I into her mind. Whether she accepts it or rejects it...that's up to her......but IT'S THERE.


Your actions without emotional investment from a woman means NOTHING.
I agree. MY POINT....is that that emotional investment has to have A BEGINNING. It has to start from somewhere.


And while emotional investment TAKES TIME..........a SPARK DOES NOT. A spark can be generated in AN INSTANT........hence,MY PURPOSE in being upfront.


Take a woman who is in a 3 year relationship, and breaks it off because she met someone else. What happened here? You think the guy she met spilled his guts right away and tried to hook up with her through PUA tactics? No. It wouldn't have worked. She would have said "I have a boyfriend." It was insidious and happened gradually over time to the point her emotions became stronger for the new guy through desirable personality traits that he displayed, causing her to have feelings for him. This has to happen first in order for anything to materialize.
OK.......I think there's a slight distinction that needs to be understood here.....

You said if a woman in a 3 year relationship breaks it off and goes with a new guy,do we think the new guy won her over cause he "spilled his guts" right away to her.

I don't think showing interest in a woman...and "spilling your guts" is the same thing. If I see some random chick I want to talk to,showing my interest just means I find her attractive and want to take her out.........not that I "love" or have deep feelings for her. She knows she's not special,cause I could LITERALLY turn my head,see another girl,and be just as attracted to her or more. She KNOWS that.

"Spilling your guts" suggests FEELINGS. I can't have feelings/an emotional bond towards some chick I just saw for the first time ever. If you approach a girl giving out that type of vibe,you're right.....she'll run for the hills.


What am I getting at here? This "friendzone" business is very misleading, and extremely detrimental. The fear of falling in this "place" removes crucial social constructs that are REQUIRED to allow another person to develop feelings for you.
Well I disagree with you on this one. I have enough friendzone experiences TO KNOW the sh1t IS REAL. I also know what causes it.......and I'm telling you......being upfront with your interest GREATLY DECREASES your chances of getting friendzoned.

I didn't say you'd automatically get the girl. Just that the hurdle of possibly getting friendzoned would be removed.
 

Robert28

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We can agree to disagree on the existence of “friendzone.”

But it’s generally understood to mean that you have no chance with a girl because of one of two reasons:

1. You are not her type physically, and she can never see herself being intimate with you. It’s over before it started.

2. She was attracted to you for a while, but you did not show interest in dating her during that time. She gave up on you and lost any romantic/sexual interest in you.

The reason PUA gurus harp on making a move quickly is because a lot of guys wait too long and end up in #2. (If you’re in #1, whether you wait or act is a moot point.)

But I agree with you that moving TOO QUICKLY is also counterproductive. She might like your look, but if she hasn’t developed any feelings or “chemistry” yet, and you hit on her, you will weird her out.*

*This whole discussion presumes that it’s a social circle chick that you have a fair amount of time to interact with. (Not a random encounter or ONS pickup.)
I had a mixture of 1 and 2 happen to me. Looking back now I see I wasn’t her type but she kept going out with me for some reason but would never have sex with me, however she would kiss and flirt and tell me she liked me. I was very inexperienced back then and didn’t know what I was walking into but she was grooming me for the friendzone. She was making me become invested in her before she slammed the door shut. She was a terrible communicator and even I’m still confused by her rejection because it wasn’t direct at all. She said “I like you a lot but I’m not over my ex and I want to keep hanging out with you” but I was thinking we’d been dating this whole time because we’d been out like 7 times. The problem is I focused on the “I like you alot” part and not on the other part. I wasted 2 years but I did date other girls during that time so all wasn’t lost. I asked her about being in a relationship several times and her excuse always changed but one day I finally got fed up and walked away and blocked her on everything and that was that.
I did have some old 35 yr old woman try to Friendzone me a couple years ago and I just laughed and told her to fvck right off. So while I got burned badly back in the day, I was able to recognize the trap when it popped up again down the road and acted accordingly.
 

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Robert28

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The friend zone is just what girls think is a nice way of saying no to guys they’re not interested in.

Above all things,it is a rejection.
It’s a cowards way of rejecting someone basically.
 

characternote

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This is one of the aspects of game i'm admittedly uninformed on.
Basically nearly 100% of my lays have come from cold approach. Mainly in bars. It's kind of what I do and what I know
When friends bang girls from work or social circles that they have etc, i'm genuinely curious how it happens. Who made the first move, how, over what time frame etc. (i've always basically worked with all me lol)
The 'tactics' I used on cold approach would just not really be applicable in a setting outside of a cold approach at night kind of thing.

However, I started a temporary position recently that i'll be at until Christmas and to my surprise there is a smokeshow working there! We've worked together a little and I feel like i'm already the guy she 'likes' the most there, but not really sensing much in the way of attraction. Deciding how to play this. I'm thinking i'll keep doing what i'm going and being playful and slightly flirty and give myself enough time to give myself the best chance to let propinquity work in my favaour and will shoot my shot and ask her out when our work time together is coming too an end. Not because of any 'don't **** where you eat' rules because it's just a ****t temp job none of us care about (extra money for christmas) but because I don't need the awkwarness if she turns me down! lol (in a bar I can just eject. Here it might mean 3 weeks of awkwardness)

In terms of friendzone as a topic though, i'm not really sure. I've certainly had friends (1 in particular) who used to rattle through a tonne of girls in the social circle, some over a long period of time where some would assume he was 'friendzoned'. He was even more prolific at work. He worked at an airport where a tonne of cute girls worked with him, and he was always hooking up with new girls. He was always light on the details (as someone into pickup and social dynamics, i'm always pestering for details) but it soudned like it was usually a matter of them being 'friends' and then at some point SHE would be teh one who amped up the flirting etc, then swapped facebooks, then she's send him memes and messages and then soon after than he was banging her
 

bat soup

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This is a scare tactic used by pickup artists and dating coaches to encourage guys to take action. They think they have to be direct, make their intentions known right away, to avoid falling in this imaginary trap. Ironically, this is what lands guys in there to begin with. What they don't realize is a woman has to have FEELINGS for you in order for this action that you're taking to work. You have to get their EMOTIONS invested in the situation before this can be effective.

Just because you have your mind made up that you like a woman, and have decided you're going to show her without hesitating, doesn't mean she's going to reciprocate. What you're basically trying to do is CONVINCE the woman to like you. You're better off saying "I like you, so, you should like me too." Because that's what you're communicating. You're so wrapped up in your own emotions, you're not aware that the woman herself feels nothing. The reason you do this, is because you need confirmation that she feels the same way about you first, before you feel comfortable proceeding and showing her how cool of a guy you are. It's insecurity, and women don't reward that behavior. You can take shortcuts in your car, but not in the attraction process with women. That behavior is not rewarded.

Your actions without emotional investment from a woman means NOTHING.

This is precisely the reason certain men struggle with women. They don't comprehend this. They know how they feel, but they are not calibrated and in tune with how their behavior is perceived and processed by a woman which dictates how she feels about you. It's a form of social ineptness.

Take a woman who is in a 3 year relationship, and breaks it off because she met someone else. What happened here? You think the guy she met spilled his guts right away and tried to hook up with her through PUA tactics? No. It wouldn't have worked. She would have said "I have a boyfriend." It was insidious and happened gradually over time to the point her emotions became stronger for the new guy through desirable personality traits that he displayed, causing her to have feelings for him. This has to happen first in order for anything to materialize.

The poor guy who got blindsided and received the dreaded "I've met someone else" talk. You notice it's never "someone else met me"? This often goes overlooked. When someone says "I've met someone else", what they're really saying is "I have feelings for someone else." Feelings are emotions.

What am I getting at here? This "friendzone" business is very misleading, and extremely detrimental. The fear of falling in this "place" removes crucial social constructs that are REQUIRED to allow another person to develop feelings for you.

A persuasive argument is doing favors for a woman. "You should never go to a woman's place and unclog her bathroom sink, unless you're a simp." Who is going to be in a position to enter a woman's house in such close proximity to her personal belongings including her bras, panties and other personal items? A plumber, or a guy she's sleeping with who she already has feelings for. It's an ad hominem argument taking issue with the guy itself, rather than the behavior he is displaying, while being unaware and discrediting the context of the situation.

It's not about being a nice guy or a jerk. It's not even about confidence.

What's going to determine your success with women is recognizing and understanding emotions, and the ability to display behavior that will cause those emotions to spike which will produce a woman to have feelings for you.
I disagree with the idea that you have to work on a girl and take things slow in order to get her to like you.

It's also not true that emotions = sexual attraction.

A woman may simply not be sexually attracted to you and in that case no amount of understanding her emotions etc and listening to her bs is going to get you anywhere. If anything, you'll end up being her emotional tampon.
 

SW15

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There have only been two things that I have gotten right consistently in 20+ years in the mating environment.


1. Iron Rule of Tomassi #5

NEVER allow a woman to be in control of the birth.

2. Avoiding the Friend Zone

I haven't been friends with any women when I've been attracted to them and have been able to determine they are single. There's more good than bad with this.

The downside is that I've often had weak social circles, but that's been a function of frequent relocations, both during childhood and adulthood. I never had the foundational good social circle that some men have when they live in the same place throughout childhood.

In my current city, I've done well with male friends. I have been on good terms with their girlfriends and later wives. Not once have any of my friend's girlfriends or later when they became wives put me on a date with anyone they knew. None of my friends' girlfriends ever lobbied any women they knew to meet me or go on a date with me. My closest friend's girlfriend had a female roommate many years ago. She was a 5'1" woman who refused all men under 6'0". I made a play on her as did many men in our social group, including one man who is 6'4". This 5'1" woman didn't have sex with anyone in our group before moving away. Many years later, I saw she had a wedding website up. I can't tell how tall the man she ended up marrying in her 30s was. Not sure if she had to settle on height.

I think it is a good thing to have acquaintance-ships with women, such as the girlfriends/wives of your male friends, some female co-workers, and some other assorted special circumstances where something with an attractive woman isn't going to happen. They might be able to help your cause.
 

RangerMIke

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Hate the term 'friend-zone' it's stupid. This condition just means that a chick is not physically attracted to you. She likes you: doesn't want to fvck you.

Everything starts with the chick... she either wants you or she doesn't... not a fvcking thing in the world you can do to change that. Never fall for a chick if she hasn't fallen for you. If you can't be her 'friend' because you have no emotional self control, then don't do it... walk away and let her bang some other dude. You go find a chick that wants you.

Escaping the so called 'friend-zone' is impossible. You might hang around a chick until something happens in her life causing her to settle for you, but that's the best you can get... and trust me.... you do not want to have a chick in your life that is ONLY settling for you. You could walk away, work on yourself then come back months later and then she is attracted to you. But that is self-improvement and a man should be doing that for themselves and not to get some chick.
 
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