Why do women want marriage so much

[zekko]

Unfortunately I don't believe it's possible to predict whether or not a marriage will be successful. It's not just a matter of vetting because people change over time. Couples get divorced after being together for 50 years. It's too easy to get divorced in the current culture.

I'm sure most people who get married think they've found the right person, but it still doesn't always work out. I can't recommend marriage for that reason.

But considering the attitude toward marriage on this forum, a 50% success rate sounds pretty good lol. Although that includes people who are miserable but stay married anyway. But that can't be everybody.

 

[Augustus_McCrae]

BeExcellent,

"Complacency is the devil in a relationship." Agreed 100%.

-Augustus-

 

[Fruitbat]

Listen, this is a man's forum.

If you don't think I understand the subtleties of a woman (despite being brutish at times) think again.

I get "tarred and feathered" (indirectly often), probably more than you do. Stop whining.

Marriage is a fvcking joke for a man.

The original marriage contract (as you brought it up) was that a man owns a woman's sex, and a woman owns a man's provisioning.

Therefore, if a woman wanted a divorce on a flim of fancy (as women are wont to do by societal standards), the man kept the children. That was changed as one of the very first things on the feminist agenda for a reason. How would your divorce have went, if you understood that you lost your family? Your husband did! And, I imagine that you were the one that wanted the divorce...

You are completely ridiculous. And any man that buys in to your crap is ridiculous too.

If you consider that "flaming", I consider that a "sh*t test". As to which, I will agree and amplify:

'I AM THE BIGGEST UPSETTER IN THE WORLD, EVER'.

You are existing on the state, and claiming something different. Don't advise men on such a particular, for whom life is a much tougher slog.

Anyone that wants to get a married, do so. You are a basis for my game, and women's game. But also question why you are on a place like this at all, and what the meaning of any of this is.

I agreed with most of this and generally don't like feminism, but....

How do you factor in the fact a woman must go through a **** load more physical pain and change than men?


Also, given we all mainly agree single mothers are to be avoided (and something deep within every man baulk at raising another's children), and men can still be high MV with estranged spouses and children, indeed, it shows a level of pre selection.....doesn't having children have longer lasting consequences for women than men, even if you factor in support payments.

One thing is for sure. Once you are married with kids, if she decides to leave you for another guy and retain your money....you are over a barrel.

I've put this scenario to leftists and most say "do you really think women think like that?" Is the best they can do. You can't help but laugh. Is dudes can be arseholes but Jesus, women can be manipulative and selfish. How do lawmakers get to this point and think "oh well, I don't suppose any people in LTRs and kids have any baggage and a spouse wouldn't seek to do that, well, not a female"

the male pill will happen soon, and **** me will that deliver equality. Counting the days. You won't believe the impact it will have on everything.

 

[taiyuu_otoko]

"marriage" stems from an instinct for women to secure future resources. In hunter gatherers, women never hunted, they only gathered, and hung out with the kids while the men went hunting. a commitment from a male (which meant a guaranteed share of his future resources) usually came after a kid.

Even modern, financially successful women have to fight the ancient instinct that screams they need a commitment from a man to be complete.

Very rarely will you find an attractive, socially competent female that consciously chooses to be NOT in a committed relationship (of some kind) with a male.

Bottom line is MOST EMOTIONALLY HEALTHY women will at some point, DEMAND a commitment for any relationship to continue.

 

[BeExcellent]

Well let's understand something here gentlemen. Let's understand that for my case none of @deesade's assumptions are true. Not one. But if @deesade says its so, well then by God it's so...accept it isn't.

I am a financially independent woman who was the sole breadwinner in my marriage very soon after we got married. I was the sole breadwinner for 15+ years. I am also an entrepreneur and was self employed earning *at LEAST* 150K each year of the marriage. That means I got NO family leave, NO maternity leave, NO paid holidays and NO free rides. And that is just great with me because I also got to make fabulous money being independently in business. I planned and was off work 3-4 weeks post partum (after surgical births - my son would have died but for an emergency C-section) and three weeks post-op I was back on the road to earn the money that supported my husband and my family. I quit travelling about a week prior to each birth. So that is 4 weeks total, without any paid anything. I had to plan, save and allocate for those things. NO help from any state anything. And I'm proud of the fact that I didn't need help. Not then, not ever.

My husband was an at home full time father for 10 of those years. My hard work and high income and ambition afforded him that, not his. I also built a substantial income portfolio in real estate in that time and those assets make more money now than I make through my time. I lost years of being a mom that I can never get back because I remain the breadwinner. I am the one who had the risk to my assets in the family court system because the court cares about inequity. Usually the high asset partner is the husband. Not so in my case, quite the reverse.

So let's understand I *GET* where the divorce raped guys are. I've myself been facing that very fate. I *GET* the lose your family piece because you weren't the at home parent because I've been in a position facing that fate.

In fact this month I am weighing an extremely lucrative opportunity in business that would give me financial wealth that can pay my children's university fees (which I am going to have to pay wholly out of MY income - sound familiar guys?), and allow me to be worry free and not a burden to my kids in my retirement years. The drawback? It's in another state and my ex and my kids don't want to move (and my decree says I can't just take them - which I agreed to and it's cool...) but I'm the one with all the issues and constraints that usually affect men in a divorce. So as a practical matter I *REALLY* relate to men going through divorce. Especially men dealing with complacent, lazy, slovenly wives. My husband got fat and slovenly. That stinks to come home to after busting your hump in business for your family as countless men will tell you.

So I'm the one at risk to lose my family. My situation is absolutely reverse of what most men assume around here. AND I still had to go through all the physical aspects of pregnancy and childbirth (while being the sole breadwinner and provider for my spouse and family.) I did it and I'm proud that I did it.

But to assume I'm like all the assumptions that get tossed around here is ridiculous. I've said before and I'll say again I spend time here as an example of what a good woman is, to provide a perspective that men here may not see all that often, and to understand the landscape my teen son and young daughters are heading into as they mature. I'm here to encourage men to be better leaders, better in social situations and better more self aware people. But I'm very different in many ways than most women. And that's OK. I'm cool being an outlier. Always have been, always will be.

What another poster assumes has no effect whatsoever on my reality. I just give an opinion here like anybody else. I actually don't like posts being about me - but I'm not going to leave assumptions sitting around as though they are true either.

Do what works for you gentlemen. Most women want/seek marriage. Just thought I'd offer some reasons why that is.

And yes, most emotionally healthy women are going to want an exclusive or committed relationship at some point. I will if I get to that place with a man I fancy. But marriage? Nope. To much financial risk to me and my ability to provide for my kids for me to marry again.

 

[Tenacity]

Slightly different perspective from the ladies' locker room even though it tends to be a rather jaded crowd around here.

It's funny because BeExcellent represents the actual reality that marriage doesn't always end in disaster for the guy, it could very well be the woman that ends up with the short end of the stick paying alimony, etc.

I personally believe marriage is a bad business contract. Prenups do not change that contract as there's so many things a skilled attorney can argue towards the end of the marriage (especially if the woman was a housewife OR the man was a househusband in the case of BeExcellent).

Considering the fact that people can OPT OUT at any time today (they couldn't do this in prior times before the No Fault Divorce Amendment) I don't see marriage being taken as seriously anymore because more people are waking up to just how bad the business contract is.

People fall IN love and fall OUT of love. For various reasons. In prior times, you had to stick it out with your partner unless they cheated on you or perhaps was extremely abusive or something.

Today, you can just fvcking LEAVE whenever you want to. So what's the fvcking point of signing the damn contract? You might as well remain in a dating situation where you are in a "committed relationship" with the person. Anything you guys build together in that "committed relationship" you have legal agreements detailing each person's ownership percentage so if something happens, you split it based on said ownership percentage.

Now women PUSH for marriage yes, but they are only doing what they have been socially conditioned to do. When you sit down and have a LOGICAL conversation with them about this, they just make more emotional, stupid, irrational arguments in relation to it. Women even tell me flat out, "Tenacity, no matter what, I will never divorce! NO matter what!" Then I say well, what if I'm fvcking the whole town behind your back as well as slapping you across the face when I get home every night? Then they say, "Oh, well that's different!"

 

[BeExcellent]

You are quite arrogant at times @deesade. You assume you understand things about marriage and children from what you see and what you hear and what you observe. I am here to tell you (and men here will also tell you) that you have NO idea what you are talking about. You haven't been through it. It's akin to someone without kids telling a parent how to parent.

I have always said to you that if you are doing something that works for you and makes you happy - keep doing it. You aren't going to get married ever so why do you care what I have to say? Because I might misguide someone? Come on. I think men here are smart enough to decide what they want to take or leave from any particular conversation. This one included. I mean honestly.

You have your perspective. I have mine. That doesn't make either one empirically right or wrong. We are in very different places in life.

You got custody. How went that? By default?

You make an assumption once again. Wrong answer. We have joint custody. He could have sued for full custody as the custodial parent since I was gone so much for work. He didn't.

But I am truly indebted to my father (who was completely dominant).

Me too. My Dad was more "Alpha" than any man I have ever seen. Still is as he lays dying with his wife of 30 years caring for him. I became who I am because my Dad never cut me a break. He was hard and demanding and I had to earn his respect. And I did. So I look for a dominant man like my Dad. I thought that was what I had married, but it was a flimsy facade once the chips were down. You don't know what someone is made of until the chips are down. I married the wrong guy, found out after the fact and stayed with him for the children. I was loyal, I was committed. You discard that. You can't begin to appreciate what I've been through or what I've accomplished in spite of it.

But just like men here after a while doing the definition of insanity keeps coming up. As in:

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.

I married a man-child posing as a man. It was an easy pose to maintain as long as the house of cards stood up. I like him, I love him, but I don't respect him, and I gave him every opportunity to figure himself out. He couldn't while he was married to me. His life
was too easy, too cushy, and too spoiled. He is improving now because he has to lead his life as an adult.

I have a friend who is getting legit 'divorce raped'.

That is unfortunate and I feel for your friend. I was facing legit divorce rape as well. I was able to negotiate something that allowed me to remain largely intact. I bought my ex a house free & clear, a car free & clear and I still support him financially. So he is doing just fine considering he has much more now than when he entered the marriage. I also paid off all his business debts, which were substantial. So he now has assets and no debt. I have more assets but assumed ALL the debt (which is almost all paid off now by the way)

Let's face it, you ruled the roost, and dominated this poor mangina.

.

Agree. AFTER he refused to lead and AFTER he refused to act in the man's role you bet I handled things. He abdicated entirely his role as the man. I am a woman who needs a dominant man who can lead. It ought to be entirely obvious where such a dynamic ends up and shouldn't surprise anybody. We agree there. My life and my family's welfare was NOT going to sh!t if I could keep that from happening.

If I was a man dealing with a lazy woman you would agree with everything I have said and everything I did. But I was a woman dealing with a lazy man. So you can't support the exact same things you would support a man in because the roles were flipped and I'm a woman. Let's just own that much here for Pete's sake.

 

[BeExcellent]

I don't see marriage being taken as seriously anymore because more people are waking up to just how bad the business contract is.

Exactly. 100%.

 

[Tenacity]

Unfortunately I don't believe it's possible to predict whether or not a marriage will be successful. It's not just a matter of vetting because people change over time.

100% correct. This is why the marriage contract today makes absolutely no sense. You can leave at anytime for any reason, or for NO REASON. People fall in love and people fall out of love....with today's marriage if the person randomly falls out of love with you, they are going to want OUT based on the logic that "life is too short, so why be in an unhappy relationship"?

There's absolutely no chance in hell to predict if your partner that you married in 2016 will be the same person with the same love for you by 2026. NO chance in hell. You are taking a gamble and I ask, what is the pay-off for that gamble?

- Is it a stable environment for kids? You can get that without taking the gamble.
- Is it having someone who loves you in your life? You can get that without taking the gamble.
- Is it not being lonely? Again, you can have people in your life without taking the gamble.
- Is it for religious reasons? If so, you better be the POPE with NO other sin in your life as well!
- Is it for family tradition? If so, can you work around this?

Listen, this is a man's forum.

If you don't think I understand the subtleties of a woman (despite being brutish at times) think again.

I get "tarred and feathered" (indirectly often), probably more than you do. Stop whining.

Lmao, this guy talks about someone whining yet this crybaby put me on IGNORE because he can't handle the heat.

BeExcellent I honestly wouldn't concern myself with this fool lol. He's a part of what I call "The Poon King Alpha Club", which is just a group of anonymous, "MGTOW" guys on the internet who all sit around talking about how ALPHA they are, how many chicks they have screwed, but will not post ONE PIC of any of these "chicks" they are spinning all over the place.

Sometimes I wonder do these guys work lol? I mean damn, how the hell do you have time to work a full time career (50 - 60 hours a week), workout (10 hours a week), as well as spin the 10 plates that they claim they spin often lol?

I said it before, I'll say it again, BeExcellent has a higher NET WORTH than Poon King, deesade, and 2 other of their anonymous, fvck-tard fan boy club members have combined.

They have no life experience, they have NO LIFE period....all they have (in every post) is regurgitated MGTOW, one-dimensional, women are all evil/men all are good....bullshyt theories. And oh yeah, how they are so ALPHA and we are all beta fag.gots

*Yawn*

 

[zekko]

The original marriage contract (as you brought it up) was that a man owns a woman's sex, and a woman owns a man's provisioning.

Therefore, if a woman wanted a divorce on a flim of fancy (as women are wont to do by societal standards), the man kept the children. That was changed as one of the very first things on the feminist agenda for a reason.

Yeah, the current state of western society makes it a bad deal for a man to get married. This doesn't matter to me because I don't need to be married. I'm perfectly happy being single. I feel sorry for the guys who want to have kids and raise a family though. It seems like such a reasonable ambition, and yet a good portion of those guys will be screwed.

You were talking about marrying foreign women. It's pretty telling that the success rate for mail order brides is around 80%, far better than the average western marriage. Western marriage, and western women, are broken. And just for equality's sake, hey maybe western men are broken too.

Considering the fact that people can OPT OUT at any time today (they couldn't do this in prior times before the No Fault Divorce Amendment) I don't see marriage being taken as seriously anymore because more people are waking up to just how bad the business contract is.

People fall IN love and fall OUT of love. For various reasons. In prior times, you had to stick it out with your partner unless they cheated on you or perhaps was extremely abusive or something.

Today, you can just fvcking LEAVE whenever you want to. So what's the fvcking point of signing the damn contract?

Spot on. At one time, people took vows seriously. Now the contract is merely a suggestion, until which time it becomes inconvenient. I can't see a good reason to enter into it at all.

 

[penkitten]

Good marriages exist. Perhaps you know a lot of people in bad marriages or you had been in one. But good marriages do exist and work out well for both partners. My husband and I both work full time to support ourselves. I will always contribute by working hard. I admit that I don't earn what he does, but I don't have his education. However, I do contribute to helping him pay off those student loans. It just worked out that way. For so many years, we both worked full time and I came home to the kids while he went to school full time. We couldn't both go, and I could say we compromised but there was never a question on who was capable of getting that master's degree. I clean our home, scrub the tub, vacuum the floors and wash the dishes. I make the homemade laundry soap and wash the clothes. Now I'm not saying that he didn't wash his clothes 1 dozen times in the past 12 years but he usually doesn't have to. I'm not saying he doesnt occasionally make me a wonderful dinner, but he usually doesn't have to. I enjoy taking care of our home and him and the children. I haven't mowed the grass in years. I rarely take the trash to the outside can or curb these days. I may be the one small enough to climb the bushes and trim them but it isn't like I have to do that often. He shovels the driveway and I mop the floor. That is just taking care of each other on the day to day stuff. That's just the part of the marriage that makes you feel secure in growing old with someone. There is a whole other part of marriage. The absolute knowing that you belong with that person in this life because although every human has their faults, they accept you for yours and you can live with theirs too. That comfort in knowing that they know what you find funny, what makes you smile, what would upset you. We both get something out of this deal. Not just halving bills or chores. My husband is my very best friend and sometimes my only friend. We keep each other young with laughter. I will always have his back and I do not have to question if he has mine. This lengthy reply was in no means a blanket statement about how everyone should get married. Because some people should never. I just wanted you to know that good marriages exist whereas both people are happy and neither feels like they lost anything but rather both people feel they gained everything.

 

[penkitten]

I wanted to add this... falling in love with my husband was as easy as breathing. Staying in love with someone for a dozen years or a lifetime does take work. The simplest gestures, the small things, remind me of that. At night, when he offers me the fluffy pillow, I know he gives a **** about me. That's kind of it in a nutshell. You can only make a marriage work if both people give a **** about each other. Carry on.

 

[Tenacity]

You can only make a marriage work if both people give a **** about each other.

That's correct Penkitten, the issue is that there's really only SO MUCH control a guy has over this area though.

There's NO process, no filtering procedure, no technique, or anything of the sort that any guy can do to find a good wife nor create a good marriage. It would be akin to a talent scout saying he's about to go out and find the "Next Michael Jordan". That's impossible, all you can do is try to find really good basketball players and try to CREATE stars out of them.

So a guy can't go out and say he's looking for a wife. All he can do is say he's going out and trying to find some "decent" women, but just because she's "decent" without a lot of baggage or kids or money issues, does NOT mean she will be a good wife.

Plus the potential financial disaster you could face if it goes bad, is not worth it. Imagine, you are 28 and get married. Over 20 years you kick a.ss in your career despite this horrible economy/job market, and build up some form of wealth. Then this bytch (cough, your wife, cough) decides she wants to LEAVE, break up the family, and take your assets with her.

Now you're 50, broke, and all of your money is with this bytch (cough, your wife, cough) who is spending the money on guys damn near HALF her age. I can guarantee you right now, if a bytch did me like that I'm putting her in the fvcking ground. Period. Da fvck would I have to lose? I would have already lost everything.

 

[Augustus_McCrae]

It's obvious that Deesade and BeExcellent are hot for each other. The sexual tension between the two of them is so thick you can cut it with a knife.

They're probably already involved in a secret assignation but their sparring on this forum just keeps it "hot and fresh".

Just imagine the make up sex those two have! Hotter than a napalm bomb!

-Augustus-

 

[BeExcellent]

It's obvious that Deesade and BeExcellent are hot for each other. The sexual tension between the two of them is so thick you can cut it with a knife.

They're probably already involved in a secret assignation but their sparring on this forum just keeps it "hot and fresh".

Just imagine the make up sex those two have! Hotter than a napalm bomb!

-Augustus-

Oh My. I don't care who you are...that right there is funny

 

[BeExcellent]

Didnt someone have to be in the home? Would you have sacrificed a lower standard of living to have him work and you quit your job? What was the benefit to filing, other men?

I'm not a settle for less type person. And I walk the walk so I make no apologies for that.

I realize you are making a straw man argument here but let's follow that out:

So you would suggest that I should have given up 150K+ a year, which affords an upper middle class lifestyle and the ability to have enough capital to build real wealth to try and live on 24-30K a year (gross income) for a family of 5? That is below the poverty line. He actually refused to work after a while. Everything was too hard, took too long, and was too demanding. I offered to pay for culinary school, flight school, finishing his undergrad degree...I would STILL pay for it if he got serious about going! You can't fix lazy people. Trust me I tried.

It is silly to expect that someone capable of making a steady six figure income should quit and forgo the financial means they are capable of earning in order that a person who is uneducated, unprepared and unable to support the family can founder and then everyone ends up in horrible shape. That is NOT a good outcome for anybody.

I find it interesting that this is the suggestion. Well I should have just been poor and let my family suffer. Sorry, not in this universe or this lifetime. It's a ridiculous suggestion.

Had I known he wasn't the businessman he touted himself as in the beginning I would never have dated him or married him. I would have known he wasn't in my league. That was my error and I own it.

There are such things as lazy people. Men here have been married to lazy women. I was married to a lazy man. Most men (thankfully) don't relate to that here. That is a good thing.

 

[BeExcellent]

None of it matters anyway as my circumstances don't affect anyone outside my sphere.

Man or woman if you are going to contemplate getting married, avoid the lazy and the unmotivated.

Most women do want to marry. Reasons for that are well described in this thread prior to it becoming sidetracked.

Men who consider marriage should take their time & evaluate their potential wives carefully.

Too many men ignore red flags and settle.

 

[penkitten]

There's NO process, no filtering procedure, no technique, or anything of the sort that any guy can do to find a good wife

You're right. Someone can be a great friend to all of their friends, a wonderful sibling that can be counted on, a dedicated employee that works hard, a child who is good to their parents and even be great at whatever it is they do hobby wise and still none of those qualifications can make them the best boyfriend /girlfriend . Or they could have been an awesome bf/gf and that doesn't mean they will be good at being a husband or wife. Someone could be a great wife and then totally sucks at motherhood. Someone could have really been a terrible husband but be the most wonderful father in the world. And there is no way to determine exactly what a person will or will not be unless they are given a chance. They only thing you can do is keep weeding out the ones that you know just don't make your cut. Keep to your own standards.

 

[SkrooU]

I'm not a settle for less type person. And I walk the walk so I make no apologies for that.

Had I known he wasn't the businessman he touted himself as in the beginning I would never have dated him or married him. I would have known he wasn't in my league. That was my error and I own it.

There are such things as lazy people. Men here have been married to lazy women. I was married to a lazy man. Most men (thankfully) don't relate to that here. That is a good thing.

How did a woman like you become involved and married to a man like your ex husband?

 

[SkrooU]

There's something else to think about too.

Marriage has been around thousands of years.

Autonomy for women has not. Modern medicine has not.

Many women actually died or were disabled in childbirth. Childbirth has serious health risks for a woman and the baby historically and still does today. The Taj Mahal is a monument to a woman lost in childbirth.

Marriage originally from a woman's perspective was an assurance that the woman was not at risk of being left high & dry with a baby she had to feed but no way to support herself or said baby.

So the construct remains although society has changed in modern times.

This is basically what I base my beliefs on. So with women becoming more autonomous, they are having fewer children and are less likely to marry. It shouldn't be difficult then to see the reasons why so many women still want to marry...