Hello Friend,

If this is your first visit to SoSuave, I would advise you to START HERE.

It will be the most efficient use of your time.

And you will learn everything you need to know to become a huge success with women.

Thank you for visiting and have a great day!

TylerDurden’s 25 Point Checklist on Basic AFC (ie DJ) Mistakes

Styles

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Two points concerning this thread:

1. That checklist is comepletely worthless, both as a general framework and strict analytical guideline.

It is essentially a road map to success that explains where not to go. And since no map can ever explain how to get somewhere through the process of elimination, I like to use maps that show the basic routes that just get there. And throughout my own traveling, I find routes that are quicker and suit me. I may take a wrong turn, but more often than not that wrong turn leads to another route.



2. Personal discovery


I totally agree with xxblitz and CLOONEY. The majority of men in the world aren't true adjusted people. That's why we have AFC, Jerk, Player, and everything else. And there always will be. To a few select people, there lies the middle path: DJ. We must open our eyes to ourselves; our upbringing and learned attitudes and change them.



MY ATTEMPT TO GET DEEP, READ AT YOUR OWN RISK

This post inspired something very deep from within. I can't explain it in words, but I'll try anyway: There is a distinct "human" level of communication I instinctively feel when acquiring field experience, and the more I remove fear from my life. It is the result of heavy subliminal programming in the USA that we are this way. "This is how women must be addressed", "this is how men talk, walk, and act in a socially acceptable way", "this is popular so do it", MTV, Oprah, rap, pop, videos, corrupted religion, all of it.

It's horse-****.

And it is polluting people's minds to the point that we would rather spend money we worked for to buy People US weekly whatever magazine about the saucy celebrity gossip, instead of live our own lives.

Anyway, the more I liberate myself from this "Matrix of horse-****" the more I pick up on the subtle details of human interaction. It's like there is a common energy between every human, a vibe. I look at women( and men) in a totally different light. I see women for what they are, not what they aren't!

And you know what they aren't? Stauetes of mona lisa, perfectly well tempered, all knowing, keepers of the flame of love, whose farts smell like perfume, who piss gold, who hold the key to justifying my existence.

Instead, I see women as they are: Some good, some bad, smart, stupid, nice girl, pimp girl, etc.

And this "human" level of communication is, well, it is natural. It's talking and listening, actually hearing and interpreting another's thought, which is a manifestation of their experiences, their world. So now, each convo with women, men, boys and girls, and elderly people is a trip into their world. It is also sharing your own world. It is expression of emotion without being controlled by emotion. It is so many things that makes me want to talk to everyone in the world, to learn different languages, to date overseas, and all that.

And if we aren't careful, sosuave can become a part of the Matrix of horse-****, it we allow it. The most important part of this site is the advice forum, not the tips. Sadly, people continually make up hosre-**** in hopes of having a "platinum post". Let's think of what is important.
 

setarcos

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Originally posted by Styles
Two points concerning this thread:

1. That checklist is comepletely worthless, both as a general framework and strict analytical guideline.

It is essentially a road map to success that explains where not to go. And since no map can ever explain how to get somewhere through the process of elimination, I like to use maps that show the basic routes that just get there. And throughout my own traveling, I find routes that are quicker and suit me. I may take a wrong turn, but more often than not that wrong turn leads to another route.



2. Personal discovery


I totally agree with xxblitz and CLOONEY. The majority of men in the world aren't true adjusted people. That's why we have AFC, Jerk, Player, and everything else. And there always will be. To a few select people, there lies the middle path: DJ. We must open our eyes to ourselves; our upbringing and learned attitudes and change them.



MY ATTEMPT TO GET DEEP, READ AT YOUR OWN RISK

This post inspired something very deep from within. I can't explain it in words, but I'll try anyway: There is a distinct "human" level of communication I instinctively feel when acquiring field experience, and the more I remove fear from my life. It is the result of heavy subliminal programming in the USA that we are this way. "This is how women must be addressed", "this is how men talk, walk, and act in a socially acceptable way", "this is popular so do it", MTV, Oprah, rap, pop, videos, corrupted religion, all of it.

It's horse-****.

And it is polluting people's minds to the point that we would rather spend money we worked for to buy People US weekly whatever magazine about the saucy celebrity gossip, instead of live our own lives.

Anyway, the more I liberate myself from this "Matrix of horse-****" the more I pick up on the subtle details of human interaction. It's like there is a common energy between every human, a vibe. I look at women( and men) in a totally different light. I see women for what they are, not what they aren't!

And you know what they aren't? Stauetes of mona lisa, perfectly well tempered, all knowing, keepers of the flame of love, whose farts smell like perfume, who piss gold, who hold the key to justifying my existence.

Instead, I see women as they are: Some good, some bad, smart, stupid, nice girl, pimp girl, etc.

And this "human" level of communication is, well, it is natural. It's talking and listening, actually hearing and interpreting another's thought, which is a manifestation of their experiences, their world. So now, each convo with women, men, boys and girls, and elderly people is a trip into their world. It is also sharing your own world. It is expression of emotion without being controlled by emotion. It is so many things that makes me want to talk to everyone in the world, to learn different languages, to date overseas, and all that.

And if we aren't careful, sosuave can become a part of the Matrix of horse-****, it we allow it. The most important part of this site is the advice forum, not the tips. Sadly, people continually make up hosre-**** in hopes of having a "platinum post". Let's think of what is important.
This is some keyboard jockey crap. Its okay, I used to think nearly the same way. I used to think all it takes is confidence and belief in yourself. However, I never knew how to talk to girls, how to react to ****-tests, how to ACTUALLY PICK THEM UP!!

Do you go to clubs and try to pick up chicks, or do you sit at home all day and think about it?

Its guys like you who write up this crap that kept me an AFC for a year in sosuave/David De Angelo.

You wanna actually **** chicks (assuming you are not a natural), follow these guidelines (tyler's 25 points) all the way.

I hate to say it, but its true. You need to learn the ropes before you sit back and say "just be a natural". Its not the other way around.

If you want to actually **** chicks, go to www.fastseduction.com

If you want to learn to be happy being a virgin, stay here and read this guy's crap.

Hate to say it, buts is 100% true.

What is this "if we aren't careful"??

If you aren't careful, maybe you'll actually have sex and not be stuck in stupid relationships and rely on "fool's mate" or women to choose us.



Ask yourself this next time you read these Keyboard Jocks.... "Does the advice they give actually get me laid?"

And if you instead think "I don't care about getting laid, I just want to be happy with myself" then your view has been vexed. No one came here to learn how to be happy with themselves, people came here to learn how to seduce and **** HOT chicks. Guys like "Styles" (Not to be confused with the legend "Style" from ASF) is one of those morons who talk out of their ass and influence young aspiring rAFCs to stay lonely.


Again, once you actually are able to approach girls and ****-close a high percentage of them can you say "just be natural" because everyone else who ACTUALLY goes out and sarges knows that being natural is just a long series of awkward pauses and hope that the girl will put up with your persistence and just go for you.


Truth. Please, don't comment or say anything if you haven't sarged and/or actually gone out into the real world, approach random, beautiful women, and tried to run REAL game on them.

Otherwise what you say will just ruin the discussion with your false claims of an ideal world.
 

Styles

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^^^

PUA vs. DJ

Round 1

So let me get this straight...


You log onto fastseduction.com, memorize some stupid rules that should be common sense if you are a healthy human being

go to some clubs

recite some pattern or two

saturate the convo with C&F

take her home, but make sure not to do certain things and do certain things

and after alot of hard brain usage and other crap

you get some



I pick up a chick

Say whatever the hell I want to

Do whatever the hell I want to

and get some




Which is more viable to you, little man?

You don't know me, and obviously you don't know yourself if you depend on a website to get women.

You memorize "legends" from websites, people you'll never meet, and DARE call me a keyboard jockey?

Shut up
 

belividere

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This list has managed to make it onto this site quite a few times. Looking through it I noticied a couple of things that I do that maybe I shouldn't. Their have also been some really interesting and well thought out arguments as a consequence of this post. Personally I think I will take what I noticed and see if it works by field testing it. If it takes so much effort that it throughs off my natural game than who cares. Learn and adjust. Of course I will blame it on my stance being 49.9cm. ;)

As for this whole DJ vs. PUA battle. Come on this is pointless. I think that all DJ's should read the players guide and that all PUA's should read the bible. Both have more in common than you'd think. The end goal is the same. Most of the underlying principles of reaching the goal are same as well. People do things differently. The right way for me is probably the worst way for someone else. No harm is done by being knowledgable of every option available.
 

setarcos

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Originally posted by Styles
^^^

PUA vs. DJ

Round 1

So let me get this straight...


You log onto fastseduction.com, memorize some stupid rules that should be common sense if you are a healthy human being

go to some clubs

recite some pattern or two

saturate the convo with C&F

take her home, but make sure not to do certain things and do certain things

and after alot of hard brain usage and other crap

you get some



I pick up a chick

Say whatever the hell I want to

Do whatever the hell I want to

and get some




Which is more viable to you, little man?

You don't know me, and obviously you don't know yourself if you depend on a website to get women.

You memorize "legends" from websites, people you'll never meet, and DARE call me a keyboard jockey?

Shut up
In the end of the day, who gets the hot chicks?

Its not like we run any random techniques or patterns. The women love us, want more of us.

I am not saying this for you, I am saying this for everyone else out there who wants hot chicks and thinks they'll find answers from you.

If you are sitting back here spewing advice... and you aren't getting laid by your advice, then you are a Key Board Jock.

TylerDruden, on the other hand, probably gets with 100s. He ****ing teaches guys in field.

And no, you can't be some beta-male, non-DJ to be a PUA. You need to be both.
 

belividere

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styles and setacros,
the both of you are wasting time on a moronic arguement that will most likely result in the locking of this thread. Start a new thread in the anything else forum and let those who want to reply to this topic with constructive comments continue to. Your disagreement has nothing to do with this topic but is really just a matter of semantics.

You are both trying to achieve the same goal. Just because you dont agree with the journey that the other takes doesn't mean that the end will be different. To each his own.

For the sake of everyone who might use this tip as a valid source towards their own goals and needs to ask questions do not argue and get this locked.
 

setarcos

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Originally posted by belividere
styles and setacros,
the both of you are wasting time on a moronic arguement that will most likely result in the locking of this thread. Start a new thread in the anything else forum and let those who want to reply to this topic with constructive comments continue to. Your disagreement has nothing to do with this topic but is really just a matter of semantics.

You are both trying to achieve the same goal. Just because you dont agree with the journey that the other takes doesn't mean that the end will be different. To each his own.

For the sake of everyone who might use this tip as a valid source towards their own goals and needs to ask questions do not argue and get this locked.
Just setting the record straight and trying to hopefully make others understand that TD's points are money. It makes me sad and angry at the same time when other denounce them.

When I approach girls seeming needy (basically not following TD's points by accident), I get blown out.. EVERY time. When I approach and my game follows TD's 25 points, my game is smooth as hell. Its awesome

Okay guys, I am out of this thread. I said my say. After all, arguing on the internet is like the special Olympics; no matter who wins, in the end, you are still a retard.
 

belividere

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exactly. Some tips may works for some and not for others. Constructive arguements are necessary as skepticism is only a good thing. Trying to pit one side against the other is pointless. If the tips dont work for you, say why and drop it. The same tips may work well for someone else.
 

Styles

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lmao

I should've said my piece and left it at that

Sometimes a third perspective is what it takes

appreciate the light


PEACE
 

thecraftylefty

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From EXPERIENCE I know that what xblitzx and Clooney speak of are true. If you come from a mindset where you think girls need techniques run on them so you can "pull them," then that's where the problem exists.

I've said some of the stupidest $hit on Earth to girls, and not once has it hurt my game. I have fun with girls, and they have a good time with me. No bull, no hoops, no $hittests, those things only exist in your mind. All I see these days are twinkles in girls eyes when they meet me.


thecraftylefty
 

Mukester

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This checklist is probably one of the most valuable posts yet written that can be applied straight up. Do yourself a quick favour- read on.

99% of your experience should come from in-field chatting up girls (i expect this ratio is rarely applied here).

Tyler's post is a little solid bit of the remaining 1%.

-It is based on realising AND eliminating the overcompensating insecurities most needy guys make, or subcommunicate to the opposite sex.

Following these pointers will dramatically improve your skills in picking up women and help you develop a stronger internal frame of success.

When you have a strong frame (ie alpha) then you have more manoeuvrability with these "rules".

Thats why people like me and my wingmen learnt them first...(got good) -and can now break them.


NOW do yourself a favour:

Quit debatting this pointless issue unless youre a professional pua or a troll.

Go and reread the post.

Find a good buddy, go out, and try it. Have fun, Rinse, repeat.

***
Just trying to save you guys some time on your path to success.
 

Derek Flint

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TD's 25 pt. checklist?
Mystery's 13 steps to PU?

Look, PU is not that complicated - get your inner game together, and be a man.

No need for checklists, routines, cold-reads, hand-writing analysis, magic-tricks, peacocking, etc...

It's all overkill and not necessary.

In fact, it can actually kill attraction, just like too much C&F can.

Keep it simple - confidence plus a strong frame is really all that's needed.

Yes, it's good to have a few standard lines and routines, but some of this stuff is way overdoing it.
 

Derek Flint

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Originally posted by Slickster
I can't believe this thread is getting negative reviews!

If you are paying any attention you'll see that Tyler Durden's main point is that qualifying a chick too soon isn't your best bet.

Whether it be thru body language, tone of voice, chasing her, waiting while she goes to the bathroom, trying too hard,etc. most guys DO qualify WAY too easily. Hell, most guys will qualify a chick based on looks ALONE!!! Very lame. Notice Tyler repeatedly mentions to treat a hotty like she is an UG. So many guys get in the presence of a hot chick and automatically start acting like fools.

While I don't agree with imposing too many rules and making this game into a science that is what Tyler is into and face it - some guys need alot of help.

If these guidelines help some guys then great. No flames needed.
Treating a Hottie like an UG might work on LSE women, but that's about it.

You meant treating all women pretty much the same, regardless of their looks, right?

And, being indirect, game-playing, etc... is AFC behavior, because one doesn't have the courage or the balls to be upfront and honest about who they are and what they want.

They would rather use a "buffer" like some afc opener about "who lies more, men or women" instead of just directly opening the target.

If you want to DHV, stop *****footing around with indirect openers and start having the courage to directly open.

These women aren't stupid - they know why we are asking them their "opinion" about something - it's not because we want to know, it's because we are trying to get into their pants, and they know it.

So when some guy comes along and says something like "I need a woman's opinion on something" or such, that does the opposite of DHV because she doesn't see you as being Alpha when you use an excuse to talk to her instead of just directly opening her.

"Hi, I saw you and I'd like to get to know you"

Simple and effective, when done with strong frame.

And I'm still going to qualify her, and bust on her C&F style as needed.

Ironic that the Tyler Durden in Fight Club said the following:

"You're all azzholes. You know why? 'Cause none of you have the guts to be what you want to be."

That, in a nutshell is the difference between being direct and indirect.

Do you want to be some guy who weakly opens indirect, who follows 25 tips, who follows 13 steps, who does the Mystery M3, who learns magic, or palm reading or hand writing analysis, who "peacocks" and looks like some kind of fag, or some lame routines just to PU chicks?

Isn't that the definition of AFC behavior?
 
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Derek Flint

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Originally posted by Jvesti
I disagree with this post. But it is a great way to make things nice n complex guys for all they're worth while they have to do 80 zillion of the lessons. I'd encourage any newbie to not read this post unless they want to trip themselves up in a bad way. How do I know? Because I've been through the gauntlet already! All of this mechanical stuff comes from your internal state already which is what you should focus on. Change your life, become a masculine man and women will follow. Plain and simple, there is no such thing as a man who embodies masculinity that does not attract females. Maleness and Femaleness attract to each other like positive to negative.

Learning how to be a computer programmer you need technical schooling. You don't need a ****ing class full of tips and tricks to score with women, you don't need a handbook of funny lines. This stuff preys upon people with above average intelligence that have learned to get the right answer by "More information, more more more more". This is a big problem intelligent people have to overcome, their powerful minds become their captors making up excuses or thinking more info more info more info while sitting on a keyboard not taking action with girls, business, their dream etc.

A majority of guys who are good with women would either look at this post like it was insanity or laugh and say. STOP THINKING! Just act! ACT! ACT! Develope into a man, build yourself!

Well said.
 

Delta Male

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Most of the things on this list are good. Some are designed to fake disinterest so are not my style, but most of the things (leaning back, talking loud enough, not entertaining) are good.

Importantly though, your body language is only effective because it conveys that you have positive inner beliefs (that you truly think you are an attractive guy). If you don't really think you are an attractive guy, and you are just faking it, people will sniff it out.

Mechanically fixing your BL is easy, and actually will improve your inner beliefs somewhat. BUT -- you must also improve your inner beliefs in other ways.

My main beef with Tyler and the RSD crew is not so much the points on this list, as the indirect style of game they teach. Guys come out of RSD workshops as routine machines, who kill attraction in sets by spitting ten minutes straight of memorized routines. They also get it drilled into their head that direct game does not work -- which is simply not true. You can get 10s using direct game, contrary to what RSD and Mystery have been saying to the community for years.

-Dan
 

Derek Flint

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If one fixes their inner game, most if not all of these 25 pts. will take care of themselves.

Fixing the symptoms does not fix the problem.

Fix the problem, and the symptoms will disappear.
 

Robbie

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We've just reinvented the wheel

Every year or so, we have the same argument:

One side says, quit memorizing all of this ASF and Player's Guide stuff and just be confident and direct, and that is how you will succeed with women.

The other side says no, ASF and Player's Guide stuff are the keys to becoming sucessful with women if you have no prior success or if you are unhappy with the amount of success you have.


Dating, seduction, and romance are natural phenomena. Your parents didn't have to read The Rules and the Don Juan discussion forum to get together and create you. They did what most people do and it was spontaneous and natural.

People get laid with or without this information.

Average Frustrated Chumps get laid, right? An AFC is just somebody who doesn't realize how it happens that he gets laid.

The ASF crowd, originally the Speed Seduction crowd, is interested in how to consistenly get laid. They want sex on demand. They don't want to "get lucky" and they are not after "the one." They are interested in the process of seduction and they provide all sorts of tools to help the average guy have the most success.

The crowd here is divided. Some people frequent both forums and eat up this Tyler Durden stuff. Others are turned off by talk of seduction and strategies. This forum will probably remain divided. Keep in mind that everyone has their own goals and everyone has their own issues and ideas about how they will overcome those issues.

Advice that refers to all sorts of strategies and checklists is not going to appeal to people who believe the process of romance and seduction should flow effortlessly, naturally. Advice that refers to lifting weights and being confident is not going to appeal to someone who is already in top shape with a high paying job and a great group of friends. They have been there, done that. Now, they want women. Different area of life, different skill.

I honestly feel that people benefit from advice that is tailored to them as individuals. If you want to learn more about skills and approaches, then you may find ASF to be a little bit more helpful than the DJ forum. Durden gets more props over there because he is a pickup artist who studies seduction and likes to talk in terms of strategies and techniques. If you want to learn more about becoming a well rounded person and you could care less about doing cold approaches, then stick around here, as the most influential posters have adopted this latter attitude.

Nobody is right or wrong. It's a matter of perspective.
 

Derek Flint

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I would agree with you - it all depends on what works best for you and what you feel most comfortable with.

I simply don't have the time to approach 50 sets per week, or to learn dozens of routines or palm-reading, handwriting analysis, magic tricks etc...and I think it just complicates things.

I remember when I attended a Speed Seduction weekend seminar some years back and came away more confused because of information overload, plus, it just didn't seem natural.

There is a pretty steep learning curve for RSD and MM, and unless one has the time, patience and energy to go out and approach, say, 12 sets per night, 4 nights per week, it's going to take a long time to get good.

And that's where guys end up getting discouraged.

On top of that, many of these PU "guru's" constantly put out new products, which are just re-hashes of existing material, then convince the struggling student that this is what they need to get past their sticking point(s)

As much as I love David D'Angelo's stuff, he is one of the guys who does this.

RJ does as well.

And how many times have you heard of guys who attend numerous seminars, even attending the same one's over and over, or having a whole library of Seduction products?

People should do their research and find what style they feel most comfortable with, but also, which style suits their lifestyle as far as time and effort are concerned.

The problem is that too many people are looking for the "Holy Grail" and the "Magic Bullet" when it comes to PU, so they go from system to system, seminar to seminar instead of just finding one system and sticking to it.

Of course, once one gets good at it, they can incorporate other stuff into it as well.

I use mostly direct with some C&F because it's effective and it matches my personality, but also, it's probably the easiest to learn and doesn't require the time commitment of other systems.

I remember seeing Mystery do a presentation of M3, and thinking to myself that this is overkill and that PU doesn't need to be that complicated.

No knock on Mystery - I think he is a great guy and all, but having 13 steps to go thru, which he even admits that he has screwed up by leaving out a step or two, is too complicated.

But it doesn't hurt to understand the M3 model in theory, as it is informative and spot on.

The bottom line is, do the research, find what system/style suits you the best, then stick with it and give it some time to work.
 

jago25_98

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Aggh! What not to do. What to do and how to feel is more productive.
 

TooColdUlrick

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there is a fundamental hypocracy in these 25 points. not in the points themselves, because they are merely "noise" in the larger game.

to wit...

on the one hand, there is an attempt to not appear too eager, to not qualify yourself, to appear confident, to appear "secure". why? to bag as many HB9.37564 chicks as possible.

but on the other hand, you have gone so far as to develop a list of 25 "rules" & "tactics". why? to bag as many HB9.37564 chicks as possible.

i am wondering how "successful" you would be, if the chicks that you were picking up KNEW IN ADVANCE that you are following a 25 Point Checklist, in an attempt to increase your chances of getting into their puzzies?

they would laugh you out of the club. rightfully so. agree?

the fact that you are making a 25 Point Checklist indicates that you are insecure and AFC at a deep level, despite your "success" with women.

it also indicates that you desperately NEED women, especially only 10's, and many of them, every night, to validate yourself and quell your insecurities, and have resorted to Checklists, handwriting analysis, palm reading, and sock puppets...

that is the contradiction.


personally, i do what i want, when i want, where i want, how i want, in my own charming, engaging, and diplomatic manner. i don't have a problem with the hotties.
 
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