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The Question of SOVEREIGNTY

Discussion in 'Don Juan Discussion' started by George Gordon, Oct 3, 2003.

  1. George Gordon

    George Gordon Senior Don Juan

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    Though this could very well go in the Discussion Section, I've decided to put it here because I'm looking for TIPS, or CLUES. The ones that will follow. The ones from you.

    We've all read or heard it some where, maybe even directly from the mouths of women, and that is: Women Want Sovereignty from a Man. Yet, we're taught here that we must be a continual CHALLENGE, and be in CONTROL of the relationship.

    And, after expanding my understanding of women, attraction, and what it means to be a man compared to days gone by, I find that this paradox is confusing because of its obvious conflictions.

    Maybe an explanation is arbitrary, but this is how I currently understand it:

    Women do NOT really want sovereignty, for it is merely nature's manner of ensuring that the woman gets a MAN; Women's desire to garter dominion over men is nothing more than an on-going TEST to guarentee that their man is, just that, a man. And a man actually PASSES it, by FAILING it.

    If you agree, expand. If you disagree, expand.

    !GEORGE GORDON!
     
  2. hardwork

    hardwork Master Don Juan

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  3. Big-J

    Big-J Master Don Juan

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    !bump! I'm tired will respond tomorrow (maybe)
     
  4. George Gordon

    George Gordon Senior Don Juan

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    Concerning my proposed belief on woman’s want of sovereignty as nature’s measure, it’s become quite apparent that dominion over me will I give woman none! Perhaps, in old age as my eyesight vanishes and along with it my manly faculty of vision. For when vision is clouded by feeling—when masculinity is clouded by femininity—the sight of man becomes unfocused. If my wife is on excellent behavior I may consider giving it to her on our 50th anniversary (when my eyesight is failing me)—but there is so much time to reconsider.

    To surrender your goals and plans for life to woman is to commit your sexuality's suicide.

    If we take the story of Adam and Eve, The Fall of Man, the detriment to man is obvious—DEATH! There is nothing of woman that headship should she be awarded. She is helper; man is leader. When woman leads, the result is chaos, massacre of man.

    In a sense, at the consuming of the forbidden fruit, Adam’s eye’s were opened, and God blesses him with a reminder: That vision, man is to slave in the field for his living, keeping him focused on what he must do, and not on the tests of woman, for pass them he does as consequence of the strength of his vision.

    Reiterated again, we can see the consequence of surrendering our power to woman in Samson’s tale. Here was a man so vigorous and masculine in the explicit sense of sexuality, yet failed he did, as Adam before him, to retain control over woman’s never ending drive to conquer the man’s vision. When Samson supplicates to the nagging Delilah, the consequence is his lose of eyesight, which is what makes man, MAN. A male without vision is an androgynous loiterer. When Samson’s eyes are gouged out, he loses his manhood, confronts slavery, and ultimately, death!

    But what if the drive that woman has to conquer man is not only to reassure herself of the man’s vision, but to encourage it. To challenge it. To create it. To develop it. If male is man, this may be so; if male is boy, the inevitable blindness, and death is sure to follow. Muse or temptress?—depends on vision, or lack of.

    Supplicate not to the temptations of woman my friends.


    !GEORGE GORDON!
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2003
  5. Don Ronny

    Don Ronny Banned

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    Dude, you talk way too much and your ideas are forced. I feel sorry for any girl who has to sit through this drivel.

    Whatever you say Shakespeare!

    *cringes at the thought of a wrinkly George Gordon getting paddled into submission by an old hag*

    This is just plain stupid. Sexual suicide is when you chop off your weiner and use it for a centerpiece on your coffee table. Surrendering your goals is more of a spiritual suicide than a sexual one because you can forget all about your dreams and still get laid...do you ever THINK before you type?

    Having said that, I agree with the essence of your post. We should never give up our life plans for the punani. But this is nothing insightful or new. Pook has said the same thing a thousand times, and a lot more skillfully than you have. Not sure what answers you are looking for here, but I will try to answer your main question...

    I agree that it is a test. But I disagree that failing is passing. Failure to show your manhood and personal sovereignty will only put you in AFC land. Think about it. If a man fails her test and succumbs to her whims, then he is a CHUMP!

    Not sure why I even bothered responding to this thread. It is riddled with foolish paradoxes and mental masturbation that would make Paul Rubens blush. You need to get out more son...which is exactly what I am about to do.

    So long sucker!
     
  6. Slickster

    Slickster Master Don Juan

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    I bet you more than half the people on this forum don't even know what "sovereignty" is.
     
  7. DankNuggs

    DankNuggs Master Don Juan

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    I remember blasting the big !GG! earlier. He's planning his book series. Another philosophiser with nothing concrete to back it up with. The question of sovereignty as you pose it, is nothing more than the womans nature to seek a mate that will stay with her and help her rear her offspring. (I'll talk in academic vagaries like yourself).

    There is a qualifying stage that is bartered around this forum, and is the sole focus some might say in attracting and demonstrating manly values. Values that prove you are worth the investment of a woman in having a relationship and producing offspring.

    There is a switch, its called an LTR on this forum, where you have proven your value and move towards intimacy. The forum rarely disusses this, as too many AFC's will surrender too early....

    You choose never to surrender, so you will never have a fruitful long term relationship....Go publish your book now!!!!!!
     
  8. Don Ronny

    Don Ronny Banned

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    LOL!

    are you high when you post by any chance?

    funny sh*t
     
  9. George Gordon

    George Gordon Senior Don Juan

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    Hey Don Ronny! Interesting image. I am a model 10, so I'm sure I will age better than Sean Connery, but still, an interesting picture. Not sure what would possess you to put it in your own mind though.

    You're right--I meant sexaulity, not sexual. I'll make your correction.

    Thanks for your reply anyway dude. You answered my question, and I think we agree, unlike DangNuggs. Though you may have misinterpreted what I meant to say: By FAILING her conscious test (which means to supplicate), we're actually PASSING the innate, concealed test of woman.

    I'm also glad that you agree that to surrender, even after you enter a LTR (for the tests continue, more malicious than ever), is to become a CHUMP. A man who surrenders at anytime is still an AFC, and the relationship thereafter will become fruitful for the woman only.

    Teach me something: where do you see paradox and masturbation? Cheers!


    Cute.


    !GEORGE GORDON!
     
  10. Don Ronny

    Don Ronny Banned

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    Dude we totally agree on the essence here. But you lose me in your cumbersome semantics...ie:

    WTF does this mean? I am a smart guy and I am having trouble digesting that sentence. Okay, let me try to strip the frivolous vocabulary here..

    Don Ronny´s Translation of the above Masturbatory Paradox

    When we supplicate to a woman, we are really passing some sort of inner screening process that she has. (???)

    Please correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like you are chasing your own tail here. I could just be a dumbass whose intelligence shrivels in the shadow of your impressive brilliance..Please enlighten me ,oh Mighty George Gordon!
     
  11. PowerEgo

    PowerEgo Don Juan

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    come on ray
    go back to where you belong
     
  12. George Gordon

    George Gordon Senior Don Juan

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    Don Ronny, I know that you know what I'm saying, but you're right, we're getting lost in my semantics.

    Your masturbatory paradox is a phrase so truthful, and solidly communicates what's going on here, in this post and it's underlining understanding;

    Woman IS paradox. Especially in the days of AFC. She says one thing, but somehow you get an opposite impression: her language, ********—then, you didn't know how to translate. That seeming incongruence between woman's mind and nature—The MASCULINITY MEASUREMENT TEST. The paradox of woman baffles, and leads your hand, consequently, to your penis. But that was THEN.

    So what's really going on here?

    When we DO NOT supplicate to a woman, we are really passing some sort of inner screening process that she has. You know this. We know this. But I was tying a knot between two strings:

    Woman's want of sovereignty is a want that when met with wanton rebellion wants nothing more than to want more of what cannot be wont. How's that for an enigma to trip over, but who said woman wasn't?

    Woman; irony and paradox. Ever-beautiful.

    !GEORGE GORDON!
     
  13. Pook

    Pook Master Don Juan

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    I think Chaucer visited this subject in the Wife of Bath's Tale. His conclusion was the opposite, that women wanted to rule, at least be soverign in their own choices concerning pleasing their guy.

    I don't think it is a farfetched idea to say that women view men differently then how we view them. We keep thinking that it is two people 'coming' together. Nah, I don't think women view it that way.

    When a girl eyes a potential mate, what is going through her head?

    -Cute?

    -Tall?

    -How much does he make?

    -What is his earning potential?

    -Is he funny? Will he make me laugh?

    -Is he interesting?

    -What are his friends like?

    -Where does he go out to do for fun?

    -Other girls like him. Therefore, I must investigate him further.

    As men, we don't think about these things. Sure, we want a cute girl and all. But we never look at a chick and go,

    "She's cute, Paul, but she doesn't have the earning potential that I'm looking for in a girl."

    "Wowza! She is hot! But I wonder what her friendships are like?"

    "I dont' like her at all! But George does, therefore, I must investigate what there is about her if George is attracted to her."

    We don't think like this. It would be comical if we did.

    If a guy is super hilarious, super comedian, the women go,

    "I LOVE you!"

    If a guy has millions of dollars, even if she knows nothing else about him, she will go,

    "I will marry you!"

    What is going on here? Are women's 'primal survival' skills operating?

    Ask her,

    "What do you want?"

    She shrugs. She hasn't a CLUE of what she wants. Apparently she wants whatever guy the other girls want.

    Women do not see guys. They see worlds. They see themselves exiting this realm of Nature and entering the guy's world.

    Having an aura of humor, or having lots of money, or being cute and all, these are all different worlds to the girl.

    She isn't interested in YOU, not in the way we think of it. She is very interested in your world. In other words,

    If a guy has no friends, doesn't go out and have fun, is a drifter and has no path to get money, she is NOT going to be interested no matter his other elements.

    MIKE: "HELO! My name is Mike. I play video games hours on end."

    CHICK: "That's nice but we need to talk about our relationship..."

    GEORGE: "I am crazy and do whatever I want. I paint my car screwed up colors, paint my house screwed up colors, and wear weird clothes!"

    CHICK: "OMG! I LOVE you! Let me marry you now!"

    It is the world the girl is after.

    How do successful men act with women? They bring the lady into their world. When they date (at the beginning especially), it is HIS date ideas, he gets to be as creative or dull as he wants.

    And she will judge you based on the world you are creating for her.

    Remember, she is going to be defined by you. There is a reason why she takes your name.

    We can argue which 'worlds' are more appealing to others with the women (a crazy spontaneos world or a more stable less risk world or such). But one thing that is very true is that women, above anything else, desire the guy to be himself, to show his world properly.

    Nice Guys and chumps, who do not create any world of their own but try to 'please' the women, are despised the most by women.

    She may not know what she wants. But she DOES know that YOU ought to know what you want.

    She will 'fall in love' with a guy, become intermeshed in his world, and his goals often become hers. It is not so much sovereignty she wants but a guy's world.

    "But Pook! Let us say we compare a super rich wimpy guy to the ****y @sshole! The @sshole will get the girl! Thus, you make no sense!"

    But the @sshole guys has 'confidence'.

    What is confidence but the LINK between your world and yourself, between your DREAM and DAY?

    Guys with no confidence can create no worlds. She will see the wimpy rich guy and think how she can use him, not love him.

    Like a child, women want to be seized and shown the glories of life. She is expecting you to take her hand and whisk her away to adventures, excitement, and fun, a world of color compared to her boring bland arena of Nature she resides in now.

    And this is how you become Prince Charming.
     
  14. bp1974

    bp1974 Master Don Juan

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    I like Warren Farrell's take on male/female dynamics in "The Myth of Male Power".

    His theory goes like this. There are Stage I relationships, and Stage II relationships.

    Stage I:

    The type of relationship usually formed when survival is at stake. The man is the protector, the hunter, the provider. He is the strength and the direction. The woman is the nurturer and the protected one. So each takes this fixed role in order to survive and raise a family. Emotional fulfillment and mental happiness are not a major concern, because it's more important to worry about where the next meal's coming from. The man takes the lead, provides for the woman and kids and protects them, she raises the kids and looks after the home. Most relationships up until the last 50 years have been of this type.

    Stage II:

    Survival is not at stake. Food, water, shelter and health are pretty much taken for granted. The man and woman have more free time and can start to pay attention to their happiness and fulfillment. Roles become fluid rather than fixed. Healthy communication and awareness of their own and each other's needs becomes the most important factor in deciding whether the relationship stagnates or grows.



    It seems to me that all this talk of women as children, looking for a man to take the lead, is essentially Stage I, rooted in biology and necessity. Here's the kicker. Men have generally remained in Stage I roles, working all their lives in order to provide for women and kids. Combined with the technological advances in the home, the women involved have had enough time on their hands to move from Stage I to Stage II. This is what led to feminism. Women having enough time on their hands and not having to worry about survival, gave them the freedom to start thinking about their emotional fulfillment. The men were left behind emotionally because they were too busy working outside the home to see what was going on.

    Most women now still respond to Stage I males because it touches the primal urges to be protected and take on the nurturer role, but they want a Stage II relationship over the longhaul. If as a man you don't want to be lumbered with looking after an emotional five year old and playing this fixed 'protector' role all your life then you'd be better off doing the work on yourself that you need to do in order to successfully engage in a Stage II relationship. Fixed roles are likely to be very unsatisfying for both parties. I don't want to be some girl's daddy figure who'll lose interest if I don't appear to be 'in charge' 100% of the time, I want a woman who understands a bit more about what it means to be a human being.
     
  15. DankNuggs

    DankNuggs Master Don Juan

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    BP1974 - Your post eerily remind me of my organzational behavior class in college, going over Maslows hierarchy of needs. Essentially workers strive first for survival, and once that is satisfied they move upwards toward emotional fulfillment.

    It actually makes alot of sense, unlike GG's spewings.

    "Hey Don Ronny! Interesting image. I am a model 10, so I'm sure I will age better than Sean Connery, but still, an interesting picture. Not sure what would possess you to put it in your own mind though."

    The dude obviously has some inferiority complex due to his need to validate himself as a handsome man.

    Pook made a good point about entering worlds, although I think it goes both ways for guys and girls. We take the monetary element out of the scenario, which is the real wildcard for girls. But personally, I don't go after chicks (alternative, goth) that I don't feel I would enjoy entering their worlds. I tend to qualify them based on looks, but women do the same thing for men.
     
  16. George Gordon

    George Gordon Senior Don Juan

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    Very, VERY interesting! The reason I started this thread was because I was writing a paper on the Wife of Bath's Tale for English class and I wanted to see what arguments could be made against me so I could alleviate them before they arose, for I used the Wife of Bath's Tale as an instrument to reveal that woman really does not want sovereignty. By not taking the tale at 'face-value'.

    !GG!
     
  17. Pook

    Pook Master Don Juan

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    I do recall the women in a class not liking the Wife of Bath's tale at all! (for whatever reason)

    The entire 'world' you're creating is what's going on in the man's mind. Let us see what is going on in the woman's...

    When a child is crying, endlessly, how do you deal with it? You do not reason with the child. You do not provide brilliant commentary to the child. You literally seize the child take his/her to whatever destination you're going to. After a while, the child resturns to his natural self.

    Often, it is the same with women. She will sit and stew, almost overwhelmed at times by her emotions. Your job is to seize her, (heh, I feel like a Roman Emperor saying that, "SEIZE HER!") to take her hand and show her life.

    There is a reason why guys always pick the girl, always initiate, always plan out the date, and why women HATE when a guy goes, "I don't know. What do you want to do?"

    Now think back to how you viewed jerks and @ssholes, how they seemed so rough with the women. Why, your Nice Guy mind was saying, "They do not even consult with her! They just take her and go! How barbaric!"

    How human. Nice Guys view planning a date with a girl as if they were the State Department forming a treaty.

    Women have many skills but controlling their moods and emotions does not seem to be one of them. What you feel is often what she ends up feeling.

    Seize her! Do things that revel in life rather than 'talking' about life, make interesting events with her rather than talking about past ones.

    A Don Juan does not consult with the woman on the dates (at first) or even with the relationship. The Don Juan already knows what he wants before he meets her.

    Do women want men to be soverign? I think sovereign is a bad word to use. To a woman, Don Juan is Mr. Wizard, always making life more colorful and interesting.

    A good analogy would be a magician amazing his audience. Women want their own magician (and will get BORED if you ruin the mystery of the whys and hows behind you).

    Many in SS (such as the Ant-Pook, Juggler) have this down. But they are focused on the performance. LTRs are probably impossible for them. They become BACKWARDS and end up becoming the Magical Tampon to fulfill all her stupid daydreams. They focus on her dreams rather than their own.

    By creating your OWN world, which is your own dreams and desires, the magic never stops. She will feel like Cinderella and you become her prince, rescuing her from the realm of drudgery and boredom, to give her a world of wonder through her Don Juan.
     
  18. Crotch Sniffer

    Crotch Sniffer Banned

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    I really dig the Roman Emperor analogy, but you kind of lost me here

    I agree but you have misrepresented Juggler´s ideas. He has always preached against "eliciting values" (morphing into her Prince Charming) and encouraged you to make your reality so interesting and alive that she is drawn into YOUR world.

    It is interesting to watch these master posters try to discredit each other. You really should have more of an understanding of something before you rebuke it, Pook.

    I think if you would really take an interest in learning from some of these other guys and allow them learn from you, there´d be even more inspiration for your written works.

    Just some food for your thoughts. (As if you dont have enough!)
     
  19. George Gordon

    George Gordon Senior Don Juan

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    The women in my class didn't appreciate that it was a woman that freed the knight after he raped the girl. That was their biggest qualm.

    Also, one woman in class had an interesting opinion. I can't remember exactly what she said, but it WAS along the lines of DJ: man shouldn't please woman, he should please himself. I had to raise an eyebrow.

    Touche. Well said. I've noticed that too: the sooner I can get a woman's focus onto the moment of here and now, absorbing a woman in what is happening RIGHT NOW--what I'm (we're) experiencing, we BOTH have a hell of lot more FUN! than taking a boring history class, her being your lecturer. At least on a first 'date' for sure. The first thing I want to know is if she fun in a sexy way.

    Having read about the 'world a man creates', I can understand now why girls to go for some AFCs.

    I have a friend who is a chump: he buys and tends to the needs of his girlfriend (who happens to be a quality woman), gets jealous (or uncomfortable) when she talks to other guys, etc. Yet he has an intense passion for music--the music he writes is INCREDIBLE! He immerses himself in it and pursues it fully. In fact, his band is recording with a big name producer and working on a record deal with a major Canadian record label.

    Chicks dig musicians. I've wondered why sometimes. Why does she stay with him? She has her pick. But it's the world he allows her to be in. I see that now. She gets to meet and associate with people 'higher up'. And if things go as smoothly as they seem to be going, she's going to find herself in a very interesting world that most women can only dream about.

    My intuition in the past as been, that she can, and has seen his potential, and SHE HAS A PLAN, and always has had one.

    Woman. So cunning.

    !GEORGE GORDON!
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2003
  20. ShortTimer

    ShortTimer Banned

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    But in both of these senarios you are doing these things FOR THE GIRL and not FOR YOURSELF. I think that's what Pook was getting at.
     

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