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The Nice Guy Documentary

Tazman

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The funny thing about the terms "bad boy" and "nice guy" is that they aren't really exclusive behaviors to certain people. When you're with a woman that you aren't all that excited about you tend to display more of the stereotypical bad boy behaviors because you aren't worried about where you stand and it becomes amusing to mess with your partner. On the flip side, you tend to be more accomodating when you feel you have something to lose or that it would be difficult to find a desirable replacement.
Atleast I've observed my behavior to be this way.

We're all capable of being an *******s, lol, we just need a reason.

*Slightly exagerrated.
 

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Good post Interceptor. I never thought about it like that, the natural "peacocking" urge---turned in on itself and totally warped by society.
 

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Tazman said:
When you're with a woman that you aren't all that excited about you tend to display more of the stereotypical bad boy behaviors because you aren't worried about where you stand
Yup, being a fun jerk is the easiset thing in the world when you don't have your neediness in the way. You have all the power and you know it, and you couldn't care less what the outcome may be. You're also not enjoying the girl though, so it kind of cancels itself out.
 

Interceptor

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iqqi said:
Don't make me stand up for John Cusack's character in "say anything". There were other factors involved in that scenario, dammit!!! :box:

Iqqi, I'll have you know that just about every GF I have had loved that movie. Yes, I understand him, babe,

OK?

I am only focusing on that moment and excluding the other things to highlight it as an example for my point.

(I also edited my post to add further light to these situations)

And, hey, let's also bring to light that there are actually women who find males whom are a little clueless but romantic still very endearing.

Why?

because there are some women who are also a little bit like that too.

In that they find a kindred spiriti in a male, a potential partner. Some women feel actually a littel threatened by masculinity. NOt syaing that being Romantic is inherently NON Masculine Though!!!
But, there is somthig less htreatening about a guy if he is a little bit more on the romantic side than many of the previous guys she's expereinced.

Romance is not bad.
But being non masculine and romantic may not get you the desired effect I'm afraid....



To each his own.

I'm not saying that every guy has to live up to a sort of James Bond IDEAL if they don't 'feel' it inside.

But It is sooooooo important to make sure that maculinty is NOT sacrificed.

We need to identify and delineate behaviors and things here.

It has to be clear cut.


(and damn, you guys respond so fast! you gotta give a man time to re edit!sheesh!)
 

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Interceptor said:
What you are seeing is a goofy, clumsy, non masculine male attemtping to 'court' or 'woo' a Female by being soocially inept and socially maladjusted.

What a role model, huh?
Oh boy , I sure want to be that guy!
Especially when he actually gets the girl!!
Illusion. fantasy. As in ...don't make me laugh, dude.
LOL. Love it. Red pill makes me laugh.
 

Interceptor

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reset said:
Good post Interceptor. I never thought about it like that, the natural "peacocking" urge---turned in on itself and totally warped by society.
Exacty.

It's warped.

How can a woman that may actually like the guy respond positively to a guy who is NOT 'clued in", at least a lttle??

You're not even giving the poor a woman a chance, man!!


It's not totally a woman's responsibilty to correct you in a way, you know?

That's what many women may actually resent.

They don't want to be a man's 'mommy'.

They want to be with a guy who 'get's it'. who 'has a clue."

But a guy can actually shoot himself in the foot and KILL any attraction by doing MIS Calibrated MAL Adjusted behavior.
 

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Guilty.
 

Frank2500

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Re:

Confidence, being assertive and having an "I do not care" attitude are the traits to have in this case, I would say. I was wondering though, that perhaps physical attraction-being well-built/muscular from frequent weight lifting could also give a guy some degree of leverage in terms of feeling desired by some of these women, but if the other three characteristics are lacking, the physical attraction aspect in itself won't do a whole lot, I think. I for example have seen many women who several years ago were the type who passed me over for the so-called thugs and bad boys when I was in my early 20s now checking me out several times when I walk by innocently. I can spot such women and size them up from a distance as soon as I see them. It's unfortunate people are so superficial, but that's the way it is.


That documentary might also help explain in a sense what's going on at my gym in terms of how I act with women who I find attractive-not making myself come across as cheap or easy, acting as if I'm not interested and not giving them the attention they think they deserve from pretty much every guy. So I suddenly seem to have become a mystery and curiosity to a lot of them. Amazing, but that's just the way one has to play the game with a lot of these young American women.
 

Bonhomme

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Good posts, Interceptor, as usual.

I'm coming from a different perspective, because I bought into this "nice guy/bad boy" dichotomy too much for a bit, when I really just needed to make a few adjustments. It was not "niceness" that was the problem. In fact, I swung too far the other way and was too much of an asshole for my own good... for a while.

The youtube vid's still in the same 'ol dichotomy. Just 'taint so "black and white," folks. "Nice guy" is still the wrong term: call a suck-up a suck-up.
 

iqqi

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Bonhomme said:
"Nice guy" is still the wrong term: call a suck-up a suck-up.

THANK YOU.

The problem with straight suck up schmucks, is they want an excuse for their behavior, and their results. So they cling to this nice guys finish last mentality, when the real reason they aren't getting results is that they actually ARE NOT nice, and ARE insecure, annoying, needy, desperate, and worst of all time ever, PETTY. Or they go the opposite way, and cover up all the desperate/petty/insecure traits with the Bad Boy image. So what we have here is a fake bad boy, masking a petty chump. UGH.
 

Bonhomme

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You're welcome, Iqqi.

It's so obvious. The "nice guys" in the vid just come across as a bunch of whining twerps.

And I gotta wonder how many guys promote the "bad boy" thing as an excuse to be an irresponsible asshole...

Where one stands tends to go along with where one sits.
 

Rollo Tomassi

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I think it's important to look at the roots of the terms "Jerk" and "Nice Guy." Lets not forget these characterizations exist because women gave them these names and classificatons based on their own common evaluations. Women defined these terms, guys simply made the association with them. We tend to see these as parodies now; abusive wife-beating Jerk or doormat Nice Guy. These are two extreme ends of the spectrum and when considering them, and particularly after candid assessments like in this video, the mistake becomes falling into a binary all-or-nothing interpretation.

"So I haffta be more of a Jerk then,..well, I'm just not like that." says the AFC frustrated that women can't just say what they mean and mean what they say, but this misses the point. The problem is that if you think of a center point between the Jerk and Nice Guy spectrum, most guys lean towards (if not half way over to) the Nice Guy. That's the "get in touch with your feminine side, believe women's words instead of actions" default for the vast majority of men. This is what women are used to because it is so common, and women only enourage it because it suits their gender's imperative best. The real extreme Jerk is as rare as the real extreme Nice Guy, so it's necessary to look at things in order of degrees in this respect. Most men opt for the nice, accommodating, supplicating side of this spectrum - for the majority, they've been conditioned to supress any masculine impulse in favor of accommodating and identifying with women's imperatives (or at least what they understand as their imperatives).

It's just this conditioning over the last 50 or so years that makes the nice side of the spectrum the default. That doesn't mean all Nice Guys are pathetic symps without a spine and groveling at the feet of any ONEitis they happen to attach themselves to. It is to say that, by comparison, because the overwhelming tendency to "go nice" is the standard, the guy who leans to the Jerk side of the spectrum becomes wildly attractive. He's attractive on two levels, the first being the rudimentary, biological level for a guy who's decisive, in control, confident and has an attitude of not caring since he realizes (to some degree) his value as a commodity that comes from his having options. The second is that the Jerk-leaning guy is a Purple Cow in a field of bland colorless Nice Cows. He's notable, and this too makes him a male worthy of female competition, which then reinforces his sense of having options. He's not an abuser, he's not a manipulator per se, but he tends to put himself before and above (if just slightly) the women who are attracted to him.

Now the irony of all this is that the AFC thinks that this situation is in reverse. He believes that Nice Guys are the anomally in a sea of Jerks. Of course he believes this because it's all his female-friends talk about; their Jerk BFs, and how Nice they are for being good listeners. So his self-image gets validated and he believes he's "not-like-other-guys" and his patience and sensitivity will eventually pay off - which it very well could once the object of his obsession has had her fun with the Bad Boy.
 

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Rollo Tomassi said:
Now the irony of all this is that the AFC thinks that this situation is in reverse. He believes that Nice Guys are the anomally in a sea of Jerks...he believes he's "not-like-other-guys" and his patience and sensitivity will eventually pay off"
This is exactly how I used to think. And I don't know where it came from, just have to assume it was the cultural brainwashing. I really did believe I was above all other men in this respect, and that EVERY other guy was sex-hungry, abusive, common, and that me being the guy that identified with her would make the difference. Now from sites like this I realize that my background and upbringing isn't that much different than most other guys.

So clearly thinking I was an anomoly, was wrong. Don't know where that came from either, probably by hearing statements like "all men are dogs" growing up.

So---nice guys are totally cut off from reality--not only do they think they are the ONLY GUY who is like that, they also think what they are doing is the RIGHT THING because they were raised in the matrix, and probably worse is that they don't believe a woman could be attracted to THEM.

If you felt good about yourself and were confident that women could be attracted/interested in you, then you would just wing it more instead of trying to follow the matrix rules. The matrix rules are all based on the faulty assumption that the only way you can get a chick is if you become something artificial. And since every man is born with a sex drive, probably has that dominant (latent) streak in him, and has the true desire to ravish a woman and to take the lead, if everywhere you turn and look you are told those things are WRONG and actually NOT ATTRACTIVE, is when you get that internal conflict in your mind that Interceptor mentioned. Who you ARE as a man (your true nature) and how you ACT as a man (your conditioning) have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Hopefully at this point you start to unplug. :D
 

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Most men opt for the nice, accommodating, supplicating side of this spectrum - for the majority, they've been conditioned to supress any masculine impulse in favor of accommodating and identifying with women's imperatives (or at least what they understand as their imperatives).
True, Rollo T. I think the main reason for this fundamentally insincere approach is a misapplication of the "golden rule" in the context of a response to negative conditioning.

Typically the sexually suppressed fellow is simply giving women what so many of them are overtly asking for. All it takes is seeing a few feminazi "witch hunts" of clueless (but not genuinely predatory) guys who make some unwelcome moves, combined with the traits women tend to state as desirable (not stating what they really find desirable, so as not to appear "slutty") ... throw in a little fairytale romanticism from movies, songs, etc., and viola!, you get an easy, but ultimately insincere and degrading path of least resistance for guys to follow.
 

STR8UP

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reset said:
And since every man is born with a sex drive, probably has that dominant (latent) streak in him, and has the true desire to ravish a woman and to take the lead, if everywhere you turn and look you are told those things are WRONG and actually NOT ATTRACTIVE, is when you get that internal conflict in your mind that Interceptor mentioned. Who you ARE as a man (your true nature) and how you ACT as a man (your conditioning) have absolutely nothing to do with each other.
This is the true root of the problem. It isn't that you were "born different", it's that you GREW UP different. I'm sure in some cases there is a genetic predisposition in play as well, but for the most part the guy who displays these traits that turn women off LEARNED those traits from society.

It's been a long time since I have been called a "nice guy" in the sense that we speak of here. Actually, I think I have been called that, but not by women I had any sexual interest in or vice versa.

Women tend to choose their words carefully when they refer to a man who is sexually attractive to them.

Today I hear that I am a "good" guy or "great" guy, but rarely NICE. This is the reason why it is so confusing for men who fall into this dark pit because they hear women saying "nice nice nice nice nice" and they automatically make the association that nice = kiss of death, when in reality it's SUPPLICATING WUSSY DOORMAT = kiss of death.
 

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I don't do that stuff anymore either--I don't think of myself as a nice guy. The last experience I had I never did any of the supplicating stuff, compliments, calling, none of that stuff because I knew better. I knew when I was being tested (flaky behavior) and knew the right thing to do was to put my foot down, so I did (over and over again). I was being manipulated into losing my temper, even though it took everything out of me to stay in control and NOT show anger.... I ended up doing AFC things at the end but I was anything but an AFC while I was "gaming her". At least that was my goal. She broke me in the end. Just didn't have the stamina and I had some scarcity thinking going on.

So I'm not a nice guy anymore (used to be), I don't think I'm AFC anymore otherwise I never would have gotten as far as I did.... I don't know what I am anymore. Lol. Probably because my mindset has changed so drastically over the last year or so.
 
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