Marriage Attitude

[zekko]

This question occurred to me this morning, and I am genuinely curious to see what you guys think.

Ever since I've come here, I've been hammered with the message that what girls really want are guys that embrace the DJ attitude. Not the socially conditioned schmucks that live out in the real world, not the guys who will be mesmerized by their beauty, but the guys who know better, the real men, who won't cater to their whims. Guys who see beyond the media depicted romances and social conditioning.

With that in mind, does that mean that women will find a man who takes an anti-marriage stance attractive? This forum is practically 95% anti-marriage. Rollo says there is no advantage for a man to marry (and it's hard to disagree with that). Many guys view married men as those who have given in to their inner AFCs. And surely women do not find AFCs attractive, do they? Not when they can bask in the presence of a real DJ? And isn't the main DJ attitude here don't get married when you can date multiple women instead?

Compare this to the family man who aspires to get married and raise a family. Will women see this guy as a chump while craving the company of the DJ described in the above paragraph? Will his anti-marriage stance be seen as attractive to them? Considering that it is an integral part of the DJ mindset?

 

[Desdinova]

Move to Married Man...

 

[zekko]

Move to Married Man...

Are we that desperate for activity on the married man board, Des?
I don't think this is really a question about marriage.
It's more about guys who are determined to stay single.

 

[Desdinova]

I think we're still in the 'testing' phase of this new forum. I knew there were going to be posts that are sitting on the borderline of which forum they should be in, and I'm not sure (yet) if this should be all marriage discussion, or a place for the married men to play. It's much like the initial debate on what should stay in the 'mature man' forum when it was conceived.

This one isn't really about being married either, but Allen initially moved it into this forum.

 

[Victory Unlimited]

Most women will find a heterosexual man who has his shyt together, and who is attractive on MULTIPLE levels desirable no matter what his stance on marriage is. This has a lot to do with attractive male qualities in general.

However, there is a growing number of challenge-lovin', "hidden" low self-esteem havin', and psychologically twisted women out here who will go after a man JUST BECAUSE he had the nerve to say that he wasn't interested in marriage.

 

[samspade]

I think the "anti-marriage" tone on this forum has two purposes:

1) To warn younger and less experienced men about what marriage really means for them;

2) To discuss marriage in terms of greater political/social context - i.e. what society might take away from a man if he marries/divorces (usually these are "ripped from the headlines")

I believe it's fair game to talk about this and to deter men from making mistakes they'll pay for for a long time. Better to err on the side of freedom than marrying/bringing a new kid into the world.

Besides that, I think most SS men will agree that if marriage is what a man wants to do, it is not AFC. Problem is, most men don't know what they want, or they marry for the wrong reasons. This forum exists in part to reassure men that there is no rush for them to get married and start a family. For those men self-assured and ready to marry and have a family, if they are adept at maintaining frame then their wives will not think of them as AFC or chumps.

 

[FairShake]

Compare this to the family man who aspires to get married and raise a family. Will women see this guy as a chump while craving the company of the DJ described in the above paragraph? Will his anti-marriage stance be seen as attractive to them? Considering that it is an integral part of the DJ mindset?

I personally think a majority of women post 27 years old are looking for long term stable nice guys probably leading to marriage. Certainly not all of them and not nearly as much as in the past.

The problem with those girls is that they tend to be taken and mostly faithful. They aren't really on the market for PUA dudes.

 

[zekko]

However, there is a growing number of challenge-lovin', "hidden" low self-esteem havin', and psychologically twisted women out here who will go after a man JUST BECAUSE he had the nerve to say that he wasn't interested in marriage.

Presenting a challenge is the only way I see this anti-marriage stance working to create attraction, really.

Besides that, I think most SS men will agree that if marriage is what a man wants to do, it is not AFC.

Well, I certainly believe that. Not sure if most of the forum does though. It is hard to defend marriage as a rational strategy as a male, in this day and age. I tried it once, unfortunately it didn't work out in the end, so I'm in no rush to do it again. Too much risk.

I personally think a majority of women post 27 years old are looking for long term stable nice guys probably leading to marriage. Certainly not all of them and not nearly as much as in the past.

The problem with those girls is that they tend to be taken and mostly faithful. They aren't really on the market for PUA dudes.

Those are some things that I rarely read on this forum. It's refreshing to see, actually. Usually the implication I get here is that women are only interested in PUA dudes, like they're the only kind of guy who can turn them on.

And I definitely read a lot of posts claiming that no women can ever be faithful - they all cheat. I personally don't think that any woman can ever be fully counted on to stay with her husband and not divorce, but I don't think they're all out screwing other guys while they're married.

I do think that a significant number of women cheat, perhaps even most of them, but there are some decent ones out there. They're just diamonds in the rough.

 

[The Duke]

It is my experience that the majority of women are looking for marriage at some point and most want as much of the fairy tale depicted in media as they can get. Women desire "security" and they feel marriage brings them security. With that in mind, I would say most would not find the anti-marriage man attractive. A woman may not go out seeking marriage, however
if by chance she falls deeply for some guy she'll most likely want to marry him eventually. Its in the back of their mind no doubt even when they aren't actively pursuing marriage.

Regardless of chump or DJ, there is some one for everybody and everybody is
wanting something a little different. If being a DJ was the only thing women wanted, then there would be a mile long line of women lined up and we all know thats not reality.

DJ qualities are pretty desirable to women, but there are also some things that come with being a DJ that women don't like. Perhaps this would be why some would seek a chump. The chump might make her feel more secure. It comes down to what qualities one is looking for. Same thing comes with a family man.

 

[samspade]

zekko,

What you seem to be saying is the vast majority on SS is "anti-marriage," and you wonder how anyone who is vociferously "anti-marriage" can attract a woman. Conversely you wonder if a pro-marriage guy will be viewed as a chump or beta.

This is way too binary and a bit one-dimensional. There are a variety of opinions here, and not every guy who doesn't want to marry is vehemently "anti-marriage." Some guys are, sure. But I think most will even admit that if you want to have kids, a strong marriage is the way to go.

Sure, there's a lot of complaining and ranting against the Marriage State and the sorry luck of men in the news paying alimony/child support. But that's part of a larger argument about the scales being tipped in favor of women. The truth is, even a single guy can be screwed over by feminist-centric laws and attitudes.

Not only that, but most men probably don't go bellowing their anti-marriage stance any more than their anti-abortion or anti-religion or anti this or that stance. It's not something that's going to be signaled early in the attraction phase.

A woman will see a DJ as a DJ and an AFC as an AFC, regardless of his goals and attitudes regarding marriage. A man who stays true to his personal values, whatever they are, will be more attractive than a guy who attempts to identify himself with the females he dates, or whose "opinions" shift with the wind.

 

[Colossus]

Not many dudes are 100% anti-marriage. They may say so on a forum, but in reality they will get married if they find the right woman.

Touting anti-marriage views to women is not very wise, because you are actually placing yourself at a disadvantage with them. If you get on your man-box and tell her why you think marriage is a sham, this is what she hears:

1. you are insecure
2. you have been played or burned
3. you fear commitment
4. she may not have a long-term future with you

You may think as you like, but keep your spoken views on marriage neutral. Women are far more apt to respond to actions rather than a stated position.

By keeping it neutral, you are doing yourself a favor. Because in reality, marriage itself IS neutral. A binding agreement between two people has no intrinsic 'good' or 'bad' value, it is all about the sum of it's parts and the pretext under which it is created.

In my opinion, if a man has lingering or gnawing doubts about marrying a woman, he should not marry her. Period. Ask any guy here who is happily married; their decision wasn't something they labored over for months on end...it was just a natural progression that offered more benefits than risk.