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LJBF -> LFRN

Discussion in 'Don Juan Tips' started by cynetix, Jan 8, 2002.

  1. cynetix

    cynetix Senior Don Juan

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    I guess I have more to say on the principle of moving from LJBF to LFRN (I'm sure you can guess that one [​IMG].

    You've heard it before. "It can't be done." "Okay, it can be done but it's usually not worth it." "Let it go."

    But how not-worth-it is it? Well, I will TELL YOU how to get out of LJBF (providing it's possible) and set up obstacles in your way. So if you are that AFC seeking to get the girl of your dreams to stop thinking of you as a neutered cactus, then read on and try to persevere.

    So: if you truly are in the friend zone AND have hope of getting out, do the following steps.

    1....WAIT, STOP THE BUS. There are some PREREQUISITES!

    0a. Decide if she is important enough for this. Now, most guys in the friend zone got there because they think that she is The One, so with this kind of thinking how would it be possible to not think she was important? The AFC in this situation would naturally come to me on hands and knees saying, Yes, cynetix, if there's anything I could do to get her...I will do it! Cook for you for a year? NO PROBLEM. Just tell me where to sign.

    Good. You need to be willing to cook for me for a year (and if you can't cook, you'll have to learn!) because that's the kind of sacrifice to which you are committing. Actually, cooking is not even a CONTINUED EMOTIONAL INVESTMENT, so you're better off making meals for me.

    Okay, of course we aren't talking about cooking literally. But if you don't have that kind of willingness, isn't that a sign that she is not important enough? Let me answer that for you: yes.

    0b. Decide if ANYONE is important enough to you for this affair.

    If I told you that there is someone better than her out there that you can get, how would you respond?

    Response 1: You're right.
    cynetix: Good answer! You win a shiny new freedom. Here're the keys.

    Response 2: I know, but I don't think I can find/get whomever she is.
    cynetix: So what you're saying is that she's the best you can do? That's cattle crap. You're playing the very rewarding video game of dating, and you finally managed after all these years to beat the first level before dying, and that satisfies you? My advice, my dear friend, is to work on that self-confidence. Fill your life with fun, not this same old self-pity!

    Response 3: No, there is no one better.
    cynetix: *reminisces* Hmm...I once thought that too. Okay, it's worth a shot.

    I hope I have loosened, if possible, the idea that she is The One. If you don't
    think she is, don't even bother trying.

    0c. Look at the effect you have on her.

    Don't spend too long on this one. Just ask yourself if she has the time of her life when she's with you. Do you make her truly happy? Happy because she's with you, and not because you buy her gifts or listen to her girly-talk? If not, stop here. It is not worth it.

    0d. Examine your gut to find out if you have hope, a.k.a. What About Physical Attraction?

    Of PARAMOUNT importance. Does she touch you naturally? Disregard what she has said, even if it seemed blatantly flirtatious or complimentary at the time. Look into your gut and ask yourself if she is attracted to you. You ALREADY KNOW. If you say "yes" but have a guilty feeling in your gut, it is probably no. You need to move on, brother.

    So you've made it all the way to here, and I commend you. But you know, the hard work hasn't even started. So let's get going.

    1. Cut her off. No phone calls, meetings, e-mails, messages, instant messages, or cutesy notes.

    Cutting her off WILL ENSURE that she initiates contact with you sooner or later. If she doesn't, then she doesn't give a shìt.

    If you see her on your normal schedule, do your best to avoid speaking with her. Even cut down on eye contact and warm smiling as much as you can without being an ass-hole about it. And see #2.

    2. On your end, make sure your excuses are good and valid for why you haven't talked to her/seen her, when you finally do. By the way, you REALLY should be doing things like pursuing your own life and its hobbies and taking care of school/work. What the hell is the point of getting her if you don't even have a life?

    3. This is where it gets complicated. You need to very vigilantly keep up a pattern FOR A WHILE where she does most of the initiating and you do too but very infrequently. The ratio of her initiating to your initiating will vary on your situation, but at the LEAST it should be 2 to 1, and there should be LONG gaps between the occasions you spend together.

    When you do spend time together, it will be a balance between making sure she has a GREAT time (you can reminisce about old times, but not too much!), but don't draw it out.

    Know this: you will think the game is over--that she likes you now, that she wants you now--but it is not!. Do not end the game here. You have sacrificed too much time to be running the foolish risk of ruining everything. It is possible that when you get enough signals you will think you have reached your goal. But I say that it is still very precarious, unless she straight-out tells you she wants to go to bed with you.

    Keep it up longer. You may think the game is over time and time again. Keep it up until you are SURE.

    Reading this, are you starting to fear that she will not give in? Realize: that fear = fear of lost girl. Everyone says this, and I will say it too: You Must Be Willing To Lose Her!

    This is why there are all those prerequisites above. Not only must she be really worth your time, but your CONTINUED EMOTIONAL INVESTMENT in this affair must also be worth your time.

    4. The holy grail, a.k.a. Her Warm Juices

    Well, in some way or another there will be a reconciliation between the two of you. She might be fed up with your unresponsiveness, aloofness, unavailability and whatnot. She might be annoyed that you are always running out on the conversation and leaving her wanting more. She might even be pissed at you by now, and not just pretending to be pissed.

    She must be pleading with you to spend time with her. She must be willing to show that she has missed you so incredibly. Believe me, you will know if she sees you differently than she did before. Her entire pattern of actions will be completely unrecognizable from what she used to do.

    So now it begins. Ask her out on a date, as if it were the first time ever. Touch her lightly, use your eyes to tell her you want to devour her, and kis...

    *the record falls off*

    This is how far I have gotten. I cannot advise more because it would not be from my experience. But in two weeks I will let you know.

    Good luck, gentlemen. This is a serious-sounding post, but I still remind you to have FUN with her! Be happy, alive, and confident. You need to adopt DJ mentality before you bother with any of this.

    cynetix

    [This message has been edited by cynetix (edited 01-26-2002).]
     
  2. Drew

    Drew Master Don Juan

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    Tips Forum.
     
  3. cynetix

    cynetix Senior Don Juan

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    Update 1.

    My friends, I would like to thank you. I have finally taken control of my (love) life. Aside from this girl with whom I have wanted a serious LTR, there are other relationships where I've completely turned things around. There is even one girl who has agreed to the terms of the "booty call" because she cannot stand the idea of not being with me--she wants monogamy, but knows that I don't, and is "trying to get used to how non-needy" (her words exactly!) I am now.

    So what has happened with this wonderful girl (a 9.5 and 10 on the looks and personality scales, to me) who LJBF'ed me more than a year ago?

    I asked her out last week to a hike this last weekend. We went up into the mountains, and it was rainy and cold and would have been a miserable outing if it were not for my positive attitude and our mutual sense of adventure. It turned out to be an absolute blast.

    On the way back, she started reminiscing about another time we spent together months ago, and I stopped the car immediately in the middle of the road and kissed her. She was, obviously, extremely surprised, and speechless.

    I stepped on the gas again and made conversation continuing where we had left off and held her hand off and on. By the time we returned to town half an hour later she was excited, telling me how enjoyable the day was. By the time I dropped her off and kissed her again and left her room with a seductive "bye" and a grin, she was all smiles.

    I will vigilantly hold off contact for at least a week--easily done, since I have a busy school schedule--and ask her out again.

    I will post again on this subject as it further develops. This girl is mine.

    cynetix
     
  4. The G Man

    The G Man New Member

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    good post. more should see this one

    ------------------
    "Either I will find a way, or I will make one"
     
  5. stockholder

    stockholder Senior Don Juan

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    I understand cynetix. I have a more complex friends zone with this girl so maybe I'll post about that.
     
  6. lil devun

    lil devun Master Don Juan

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    cynetix, that post was rad.
    check this out

    ive been thinking alot about a chick that im in the same situation ur in (not the updated part though) and what u said seems like the right choice. theres only one problem, shes got a bf. the thing is, she always seems really unhappy when shes with him, and i think it may end soon. im not the type to get with a taken chick, so whats the best plan of action???

    p.s. a while ago, i was the biggest AFC you've ever seen. this girl im ljbf with liked me! her friend told me that the other day, mam o man was i pissed. anyways this girl has kinda a history of liking me on and off i hear. so if that changes anything let me know

    thanks for the great post dude, and any replies to this would be really appreciated.
     
  7. KinoOI

    KinoOI Master Don Juan

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    Finally, I see my mistake...

    I let down the gaurd way to early, my **** was telling me "She wants you, your in!" and I should have just held it out for another month.

    Beautiful post, definatly worthy of any compilation of posts on this forum. Mind you, straight to the HSDJB, thanks again, and good luck with the lil lady!
     
  8. cynetix

    cynetix Senior Don Juan

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    Hey lil devun,

    What you have to realize is that the extra obstacle that's in the way (her commitment to a boyfriend) is an obstacle SHE, herself, has to get past in order for you two to even have a chance.

    In other words, she must realize that her unhappiness with him should not be prolonged further. You can either try to prime her for that realization, or sit back and let her figure things out. There's probably also some middle ground, but basically you need to decide how involved you are going to be.

    Only you can make that decision wisely, because only you know how close you two are and have some idea of how important you are in her life.

    I am assuming that you two are close enough friends that she will not only notice, but also care deeply, if you cut her off. This should be true if the "prerequisites" I outlined in the original post are fulfilled.

    So I'm inclined to advise that you do #1--that is, shut off all contact, and let her initiate. Even though she has a boyfriend, cutting her off forces her out of her comfort zone. Even if she doesn't like you romantically now, the fact that you are around and giving her a good time (prereq. 0c.) helps keep her life running well. Without you, she is less happy. This will make her, even if only subconsciously, wonder what is different. If she is attuned to her emotions, she will recognize that the difference is you. Proceed as planned. Continue to be challenging!

    How involved should you be in terms of getting her to break up with her boyfriend? Probably not involved at all. You have been on the losing side of the LJBF, so most likely you are in no position to deliver any terms, no matter how subtly. She probably doesn't hint to you that she wants to be more than friends, right? Therefore, you can't call her on anything; you can't say "Yeah, too bad you have a boyfriend already."

    However, if she badmouths her relationship with her boyfriend, you can attack her principles. You can, and should, question her loyalty to her boyfriend. You should get her on the defensive by making HER the bad guy. If she puts him down, tell her she shouldn't talk about him behind his back. Tell her you wouldn't want a girlfriend who complains about her man all the time. If she puts down the relationship, tell her there must be something wrong with her for staying in a situation she doesn't like. Tell her you value yourself enough to know that not being in a relationship is better than being in a bad one.

    This does three things. First, it makes her think about why she is with him. Hopefully that will lead to recognition that she doesn't need to deal with his shìt if she doesn't want to. Second, it gets her to shut up because you will not be her love counselor. Third, it shows you are a man of good principles and that you are not needy.

    But only if you can use her words against her. Otherwise, you must be patient.

    The key point is still this: the fact that she is committed means additional continued emotional investment for you. If she leaves him, she might just look for another guy and still think of you as a friend. She might come crying to you because she can't find any good men on the entire planet (heh). Or she might just continue to stay with him. Can you deal with that?

    cynetix

    [This message has been edited by cynetix (edited 01-26-2002).]
     
  9. lil devun

    lil devun Master Don Juan

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    yeah ive just started shutting her off now. before she had a boyfriend she was giving me tons of signals that she wanted to be with me but i was too much of an AFC at the time to realize it [​IMG]. but are you sure she wont start thinking down upon me if i shut her off? im half thinking she may stop thinking im so great? (the other day she told me that her and her freinds thought im the funniest and hottest guy in my grade) ill probly continue to shut her off and ill contact you later and give you an update.

    thanks again
     
  10. cynetix

    cynetix Senior Don Juan

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    Are you in high school? I was never very good in high school *grin*...would be nice if I could go back--but not stay there for too long [​IMG].

    If she says stuff about how great you are, you can use it. Say "Too bad I'm off limits to you, huh?" and then leave for the day. Basically you want to leave her alone with her thoughts about you, so don't stick around.

    Cutting her off does two things. It shows you don't need her because you have a life of your own (and you should). It also will get her to initiate contact (remember what I said about having GOOD reasons for why you haven't been able to give her attention? That is key).

    In short, you devote much less attention to her because you don't need to. If it comes to be that she thinks less of you, then she was never interested ENOUGH. That's a test for you, to see if you are willing to lose her. You must be able to.

    cynetix
     
  11. cynetix

    cynetix Senior Don Juan

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    Update 2.

    Things are much different than I had anticipated. The news is bad, but it's also good.

    After our hiking date which we both so much enjoyed, we had a few outings which I initiated. Knowing I was very much in control, I'd call her up about once a week and tell her we were going out. She was always enthusiastic. On one occasion she was sick in bed and had been coughing all day--I didn't know this until we met up--but still wanted to go out. That was the night I went to kiss her again but she declined because she didn't want to get me sick. Some of you might have seen that post over in the Discussion forum.

    So how did things change? Did I lose control? Did I exude AFC behavior all of a sudden? Did I decide she was less beautiful? Did someone else come along?

    No, not really.

    I decided that I was putting too much emotional investment into the affair. I thought about the Don Juan forums and how I wrote about my long-term goal of making her crave me (this thread). I realized that even though I could continue and probably end up hot and heavy with her, it was taking too long and was by far too arduous a task.

    You guys have to understand something about her. I've known this girl for 18 months, and both of our lives have been transformed in positive ways by our mutual company.

    When I look back on all this time pursuing her (not my sole project, but you know what I mean), I do grant that I made many mistakes in the beginning with AFCness. Magically, she stayed interested through tried-and-true fück-ups on my part. For example, 14 months ago I gave her the "Friend Or Lover" ultimatum (she declined). 11 months ago, after we had been dating for a while, she couldn't make it to a camping trip I had planned for the two of us. I blew up, and all my insecurities came out: I told her that the fact she cancelled was prime evidence she didn't care about me enough.

    But no, despite all this, my AFCness was not the primary problem. It WAS a huge problem, and has since then been remedied to a huge degree (I have you soldiers to thank for that!), but the reason we are incompatible is the girl herself.

    She has an issue with emotional attachment that I am no longer willing to help her deal with. There's actually a lot about this, which is quite personal to her, so I won't get into any of it. Regardless, it's something she needs to figure out on her own. All this time we have been dancing circles around each other: she withdraws, she approaches; she steps way back yet complains about our not being intimate enough.

    A month ago, I finally understood all of this and decided to cut all contact. I understood that I really, truly needed to be okay with just walking away if my love life was going to continue positively. I understood that it would be painful but moving on was an imperative.

    It was painful...but today I am starting to see clearly again. There are other girls around, and one I'm particularly interested in, with whom I had a nice swimming/dinner date last weekend (whoo--swimming is a delicious KINO opportunity, by the way!), but I no longer care that much about this whole LJBF transition anymore. I hope that, soon, I can not care at all.

    I was scared to write an update before today, because I didn't want to bring this thread to a negative ending. This was, I know, an utterly ridiculous fear to harbor.

    I was compelled to write, because I have finally internalized the necessity and desire to leave her permanently.

    In short, this LJBF -> LFRN transition is not worth it.

    cynetix

    [This message has been edited by cynetix (edited 03-14-2002).]
     
  12. cynetix

    cynetix Senior Don Juan

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    Need to bump this so it doesn't scroll off, because I have an amusing update to post when I have the time *grin*.
     
  13. College_Man

    College_Man Don Juan

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    I just got over something like this about 9 months ago. I was very interested in a girl who I was really close friends with. She knew I had feelings for her, but nothing ever happened. She was happy with me being her friend, emotional tampon, and personal tutor in school. I was too stupid to realize the situation I was in at first, but when I finally did, I cut off all contact for a month. I initally wanted to see if she cared about me enough to question why I wasn't responding to her anymore. I saw her everyday, so I know she would have figured something was up when I quit initiating conversation. I filled my time with other things and waited.

    Sooner or later, she started talking to me and wanted to "make up" for whatever she had done that was making me not give her the time of day. I took her on a date and kept my distance. I started to see a little progress, but not much and it wasn't coming quick enough.

    In the middle of all this, I just lost interest. It finally allowed me to see other opportunities that wre sitting right in front of my face. I was just too blind to see them.

    I just talked to the girl for the first time in 4 months 2 days ago. Just a quick little conversation about what we've been up to. I'm persuing other women now and I'm much more successful because of the lesson I learned with her. I made it known to her that I'm not looking for friendship though my actions. I'm kind of sad that the friendship we did have is gone, but its better this way because I'm not stressing over getting her to want a relationship with me. If she came to me today and told me she wanted one, I'd do it in a minute. Until then, I only communicate with her enough to let her know I'm still alive.

    I do wonder how she would respond if she found out I was now seeing other women as I wasn't when all of this was going on. Would be a very interesting thing to observe knowing what I know now.
     
  14. Astaroth

    Astaroth Don Juan

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    There is a short version of this post at the end, if you are not in a mood to read it, but it would help to read the long version if you can spare a few minutes.

    LONG VERSION
    -------------------
    Hey guys. I'm in the process of applying this technique, and it's working fairly ok. I'll tell you what happened and I have a few questions at the end, maybe you can help me with them.

    I met this girl 3 months ago and we hit it off immediately, but even though I was looking for a relationship, she was looking for friendship, so the usual stuff happened. I AFC'd a bit cause I hadn't read the Bible properly, and I kinda ****ed things up, but she was gonna give me the LJBF speech anyway. She gave me the "I'm not looking for a relationship at the time" version.

    At first I was ok with it, I had learned to keep my head up, think that there are many opportunities out there, and I should just stay friends with her and not care. This worked just fine... for about a month. Then I realised that, what was more like AFC infatuation at first, it was more than that. I won't go into details about why this girl is just right for me, and why I want her so much, but the main thing is, I'm determined to have her.

    About 2 weeks ago I completely cut her off. I gave her one last taste of me one afternoon after school, we talked for some time and I cracked her up with my jokes, and the next day I just cut off all contact. For the first week, I let her initiate contact whenever we met in school, I kind of found excuses to talk to other people and stuff, and she did initiate contact, about 3 - 4 times. She even called me up in the weekend and asked where I was going so she could come along. She never did this before, I usually called her on weekends for going out with friends.

    The second week, things got kinda weird. Some days she was a bit distant, others she seemed like she was trying to get closer to me but I was blocking her. She came up to me one morning and said she had a dream about me. Later that day, she walked off on her own and went to the other side of the school canteen where we usually hang out, and she just stood on her own.

    I kind of eased up on the ignoring after that, I was worried that she may think that I'm pissed off at her, but I still didn't really initiate contact, I was just more available. School closed for Xmas last friday, so, we haven't seen each other since, our last contact was when she called me on friday night to ask where I was going, and she couldn't come. For some reason, she was calling me "sweetie", which she had never done before, and was kind of weird.

    I know, I shouldn't be reading too much into things like this, and should only follow hard evidence, but how the hell am I supposed to get hard evidence if I am "avoiding" her... Should I keep up the ignoring and wait for her to come crying for my company, or start getting closer to see how she reacts?


    SHORT VERSION
    --------------------
    I'm trying to apply the LJBF-LFRN technique, I cut off contact two weeks ago, she responded but it's not yet obvious what she wants. Should I keep ignoring and wait for a strong response from her or stop ignoring her so much and see what happens?


    Thanks in advance.
     
  15. dj_bravo

    dj_bravo Don Juan

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    Astaroth- I'm in the process of trying LJBF-LFRN. But, I'm at an earlier stage than you. I recommend you wait, and make sure she is interested in you sexually before you make your move. Keep on ingoring her, but do so subtly. Then give her a solid taste of you, and pull away.

    But I'm not speaking from experience with friends, but with girls in general. It gets them wild. It should probably work in your situation too.
     
  16. Astaroth

    Astaroth Don Juan

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    That's what I'm planning to do...

    Short update
    ----------------
    I'm having this small new year's eve party at my place, so I was calling everyone to invite them, and when I called her, she said she already had plans (I knew this already) and she sounded like she felt like **** that she couldnt make it... And after this, we had a little chat about general things, and she said that she had an incredible time at this party we were both at a few days ago, and how much she missed us (in her words, "I really missed you guys"), and... check this out... she wants me to show her how to use my new digital camera. :cool:
     
  17. Mack Of All Trades

    Mack Of All Trades Master Don Juan

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    Good post.


    LFRN=Lets "bang"Right Now


    that what it means?
     
  18. cynetix

    cynetix Senior Don Juan

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    You got it Mack.

    (I really am going to post an update to this; stay tuned!)

    cynetix
     
  19. Astaroth

    Astaroth Don Juan

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    (I just typed out a huge fvcking reply and the combination of IE and MSN decided to screw me over and lose everything, whatever, I'll try to type it out again)

    Woah, this is an ancient thread. I'll post an update on my situation now.. Warningf: it will at times seem very AFC but I assure you, DJ techniques were used to get to where I am now, even though where I am now kinda sucks in a way.

    So since the last update, tons of things happened. Here's the main story:

    We started getting closer as friends, I decided that if I was ever to get myself out of this situation in any way, I would have to tell her how I feel about her, so I did, and she basically said NO, because she doesn't want to experiment with me cause she thinks I deserve a lot better and she wouldn't be able to give me what I deserve.

    After that we started getting a lot closer as friends, involving increased physical contact... holding hands, hugging etc. Two weeks later she said that she started feeling attracted to me but she thought about it and she still doesn't want a relationship, and this time the reason is that, this is a bad time in her life and she couldn't handle a relationship... She said that later, when we were both at university in england, it would be a better time for her.

    Two weeks later, I was driving her home and she asked me to pull over and kissed me. So, basically, I'm not sure what happened there, but she decided that it was time. Or something. The next day she was over at my house and we made out for a considerable amount of time. The day after that, she said she was feeling a bit insecure and scared, I told her it's natural cause this is something new, and she should just give it some time, and she agreed.

    The next day she broke up with me.

    :mad:

    The reasons were:
    - She still thinks its not the time and place for this.
    - She couldn't handle a relationship now, she couldn't give me the devotion I would give her.
    - She doesn't want to be my girlfriend, she just doesn't see herself as my girlfriend, she thinks that this is not the way for us to get the best out of each other.
    - She had to end it now cause she was sure of how she felt so she would have to end it eventually, and it would hurt a lot more if she gave it more time.


    Ok, just take it for granted that these reasons are all true cause she is that kind of person and we have that kind of relationship, we tell each other anything. This can only lead to this question: Why would she kiss me if she didn't feel that way about me. Well, she said that she did that caue that's how she felt at that time... And she doesn't regret doing it, nor was it the wrong thing to do, but through it she made sure of herself. She said she wasnt experimenting, or trying to hurt me or anything.


    So, I ask you, gentlemen:

    WHAT THE FVCK?

    :mad: :confused: :( :mad:
     
  20. DJ Wez

    DJ Wez Don Juan

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Age:
    20
    I went through the same thing a few years ago with this truly unstable girl--your description above is pretty much the carbon copy of what I experienced.

    I do believe that oftentimes she really believes what she says. But I also stand firm in the belief that a large portion of girls have no freaking idea what they want, and why they do what they do.

    In this case, she was clearly confused, probably wanted to see how the kiss would feel (not experimenting? yeah ok), and then this "sorry I had no idea what I was doing... blah blah blah..." Sounds like she's offering you psychobabble that offers no conclusion to bail herself out. Pretty cheap I must say...

    Don't buy it. Yes, her intention might've been genuine, or so it seems, but really--would you really want to continue your endeavor with a girl that screws up your mind, whether or not intentionally?

    So in the end, I hope you don't hold anything against her for her erratic behavior... but it's time for you to move onward.
     

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