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I think Pook got it wrong: LTR=Dionysian Path, STR=Apollo Path

Discussion in 'The Hall of Excellence' started by Cesare Cardinali, Nov 20, 2002.

  1. thecraftylefty

    thecraftylefty Senior Don Juan

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    I don't mean to interrupt this wonderful conversation but could you please clarify the above statement you made. What exactly does it pertain to? Does it make you more of man than those who do not fvck as many women as you do? Please elaborate. I, as well as everyone else on this board, also like sex, so don't get me wrong or anything. I just need help understanding what exactly you're saying.

    I agree with most of the topics Pook has written about. And you, SexPDX, make many solid points about your ideas and thoughts on many subjects also, which are some I whole-heartedly agree with. So keep them coming.

    "If your rap is strong it can't go wrong."

    thecraftylefty
     
  2. SexPDX

    SexPDX Master Don Juan

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    Lefty, reading back over what I was responding to when I wrote what you quoted, I was taking issue with the truth of the point that was made that guys who are curing cancer and painting masterpieces are attracting large numbers of women without even trying. I don't find that to be necessarily the case in my own experience of reality.

    Whether or not I was more of a "man" than any of these guys was not what I was addressing at all. What is or is not a "man" is a theme I normally don't get into on this board because I find it frankly..uninteresting.

    ------------------
    "Dare to aim high." ~ DeepBlue

    "Embrace the unknown." ~ Mystery

    "Every human being has so much to offer, it's whether they are willing to give it that makes or breaks their relationship with me." ~ Gunwitch

    "All you can do is make sure that YOUR game is tight and your skills are intact. Be prepared for anything and play YOUR game at all times, right down the line." ~ MrSex4uNYC

    "Capture and lead her imagination and she will not resist you." ~ Ross Jeffries
     
  3. HB_Hunter

    HB_Hunter Senior Don Juan

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    Pook . U've Got To Read This .

    Bump!
     
  4. Inspector Clouseau

    Inspector Clouseau Senior Don Juan

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    As indicated by quotes in Secret of the Jerk, he already did, he just hasn't bothered replying in this thread, for he has already replied.
     
  5. thecraftylefty

    thecraftylefty Senior Don Juan

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    Thanks for answering my question SexPDX. But with your reply came another question I just have to ask. Here it is. Why do you, as you put it, find discussing what or what is not a "man" so..uninteresting on THIS message board? If you were over at ASF would your response be different? I also frequent that message board to view all the perspectives available.

    "If your rap is strong it can't go wrong."

    thecraftylefty
     
  6. SexPDX

    SexPDX Master Don Juan

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    Hi Lefty,

    I actually don't get into much discussion on that theme on any groups, the only reason I singled out THIS message board in my post was because this is the only board that theme seems to appear on so frequently.

    I understand and agree with a lot of what Pook says in posts like his recent "jerk secret" bit that being a man whose is not afraid of his testosterone is something you need to get laid and that getting laid doesn't require reading of books and layguides. The reason I don't find this very interesting is that I kind of view that as a forgone conclusion, so it therefore does not prompt me to spend much time discussing it other than my attempts to address the issue of what else there is to do besides that.

    I can (and do periodically) get laid by simply letting nature take it's course. I know how that works. However, I want something more than what I get by doing that. Having said that, I do think that guys who are having serious trouble meeting women and being sexual with them at all can be helped by reading that post up and down several times and growing a pair, except for that part about women being attracted to "extreme masculinity", I think that idea is going to lead a lot of guys to acting like lame ass pseudo badasses. Pook is right that getting laid and the game are not inherently complicated things at all and the have been going on since time immemorial.

    But I think the game can be MADE complicated by people who wish to accomplish complicated things in the game. The character I model is an "against the grain" seducer who has access to all his internal resources. How can I become that without complicating things a little?

    Another thing I don't like about the masculinity theme is that the way it is addressed here it is IMO too broad a topic that emcompasses too many themes that should really be addressed separately. Sure, it really does make all the guys feel good to chant "be a man" but I think it's more constructive to deal with the underlying issues themselves. I think that the salient themes that are not sufficiently addressed under the masculinity blanket are things like genuine good feelings about yourself, trust in your own intuitions, genuine communication, etc. Now these are not things you can just get a guy to simply HAVE by writing something for him to read. I think these are built up in very small steps by simple things you do to treat yourself like the person you are trying to become. And I also think that experiencing as many different situations that target the widest possible range of your consciousness has a way of developing these qualities. I think some of the times in my life that were the most personally enriching were also some of the most painfull. The wider the range of consciousness you experience, the more you are able to grasp the psychology of those around you.

    The whole thing about "being a man" and making yourself appear confident is great but you can only strech that so far from where you are genuinely at before you are incongruent and make those around you pick up on insecurity or be suspicious of you.

    I now find myself attentive to the unconscious to the point that when I sit here and think as I type words like anger, fear, hopelssness, curiosity, connection, intrigue, excitement, arousal, glee, circuitry gets activated in me that gives me a glimpse of those states again and in a VERY convincing way too. I think I had this potential before, but now that I have studied seduction and applies some new ways of thinking I have become connected with a capability within myself that I was not before. Having this now makes it much more easy to connect with people.

    So, my short answer that turned into a long post, is that by focusing so much on masculinity I think that a lot of guys (whether they realize it or not) are cheating themselves out of a lot of some development in a lot of other areas that tend to be in a way overwhelmed by the bravdo of attempting to be more "masculine".

    ------------------
    "Dare to aim high." ~ DeepBlue

    "Embrace the unknown." ~ Mystery

    "Every human being has so much to offer, it's whether they are willing to give it that makes or breaks their relationship with me." ~ Gunwitch

    "All you can do is make sure that YOUR game is tight and your skills are intact. Be prepared for anything and play YOUR game at all times, right down the line." ~ MrSex4uNYC

    "Capture and lead her imagination and she will not resist you." ~ Ross Jeffries
     
  7. Drifter

    Drifter Senior Don Juan

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    This is an awful lot for me to read, and I'll admit that I just skimmed it a bit...

    but if I may be short then let me put this in...

    you are so unique, you are so rare.
    only you have had your experiences, only you share many of your own beliefs.

    What makes you think it will be so easy to find a girl that is LTR material?

    Djing is not about spending your whole life just looking for azz...

    true thats a plus but its about learning how to be successful, so that you can meet many women.

    Only if you meet MANY will you ever have a chance of finding that very rare one who suits you to be your compliment...

    IF THERE IS SUCH A GIRL....
     
  8. PatrickBateman

    PatrickBateman Don Juan

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    Within the contextual framing and dichotomy that you established to explain your points, have no other choice but to suggest to you, that what you are stating is just a set of meanings and conclusions that you have arrived at , at the time you wrote it, and that the complexity of your post , merely reflects its basis.


    theories, models, perceptual grids, cognitive meanings, linguistic descriptions.

    just a bunch of words.

    hhmmm now that is an interesting observation.





    ------------------
    I have to return some videotapes.
     
  9. Cesare Cardinali

    Cesare Cardinali Master Don Juan

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    SexPDX,

    Your last post to Lefty was extremely thought provoking. Could you please elaborate on some of those themes (you may even consider reposting it as its own thread for maximum readership).

    I am especially interested in the part where you wrote "you should treat yourself like the person you are in the process of becoming". Could you perhaps give some examples?

    I think your on to a very powerful track here and it would be a shame if it got burried within this thread.

    Thanks.

    Cesare Cardinali
     
  10. NINJA PIMP

    NINJA PIMP Banned

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    Haha! Classic!

    Pook got his ass served on this one. No wonder he never replied!
     
  11. drixsa

    drixsa Master Don Juan

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    oh but he did

    go re-read the secret of a jerk regardless if you have read it or not

    itll take a lot of time but it is worth it
     
  12. B9

    B9 Senior Don Juan

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    I hate to go religious on you people....

    Hello Cesare. A very interesting thread and one that echoes one of my thoughts as well.

    Next to my keyboard, I have book I picked up in Delhi a few weeks ago entitled "Sudden and Gradual - Approaches to Enlightenment in Chinese Thought." Now what does this have to do with this thread then? Everything really.

    The gradulists' approach in Buddhism is one of taking up concrete techniques to reach enlightenment, whereas the subitist (exponents of sudden enlightenment) deny the need for technique, stressing that the path is a pathless path and comes about purely from changing the way you see the world. A great deal of discussion has taken place on this topic without any apparent reconciliation betwen these two approaches and I'll be darned if this discussion on the need for specific techniques in DJing as opposed to simply changing your perspective would provide the magical answer.

    Now, I am gonna talk about Zen and Buddhism and its issues with gradual (technique) and sudden (nothing concrete to take hold of and work with) approaches, but it could just as well be substituted for DJing.

    As for my own experience with practising Zen, I found myself initially drawn to the sudden approach. Eventually, without even realising it, several years later, I found myself completely immersed in the gradualist approach to my own mind. I have since then begun to unlearn all those techniques and getting back to the sudden way. Why? Because all these techniques and specified modes of perception deal with a superimposed view of reality (or more accurately: simply experience). Like throwing away the old coloured glasses to pick up some new colured ones. They did not allow me to become aware of myself as is, but merely as Buddhism sees this mind. Dogmatism, really.

    The more I then delved into the sudden approach, the more I discovered how entirely superflouous my path had been before that. The point being however, that I did not realise this, *was not prepared to realise this*, until I had actually ventured on the gradual approach, got to know it by myself and the inherent flaws that come with it.

    Chinul, probably the most renowned Zen master in Korean history, sheds light on the issue, which I find accords well with my own experience. The sudden approach is proclaimed as the higher one and the only real transcendent one. The gradual approach, not being truly transcendent, cannot lead to real enlightenment. If that is the case, why did the Buddha even bother teaching the gradual path? Simply because people were not receptive to the sudden one, couldn't cope with it, so he gave them concrete techniques to work with.

    But, as it is says in the Diamond Sutra: "Ye Bhiksus, should know that the Dharma I expound is likened to a raft." Even the Dharma should be cast aside; how much more so the Not-Dharma?"

    Translated to DJ talk: Yo gangstas ought to recognize that the pimping I'm talking about is like raft, bro. Even the pimping needs to be left behind, dude. How much moreso your sorry AFC ways?"

    As I see it, there is a quite natural progression from AFC to DJ (through using DJing techniques) and from there, simply to a real man. Some suckers never let go of their AFC ways. Some get stuck on the DJ stage and make women the focus of their lives. And some, though it seems not as many as the other groups, eventually manage to let go of both.

    Pook made that progression himself, yet doesn't seem to acknowledge the validity of the path he took himself. I personally don't have much problem with that. If someone came to me and asked for advice on Zen, I am not sure I would recommend any gradual approach myself. Because it is a bit like using poison to kill another poison. If you keep taking it afterwards, you are just gonna foul up your system with what was meant to cure it. So obviously, if it can be avoided, best not do it.

    However, most people won't know how actualise themselves with something as inconcrete as what pook suggests (and I include myself in that category to a certain extent). They need something concrete to work with, which is what the various DJ techniques give you.

    For those who can, I'd say Pook's way is the fastest and safest way around. But I think that most people simply cannot let go of their uncertainty just like that. So they need to use techniques to hel them with their certainty in order to realise that they don't need it. Pook, from what I've read, doesn't seem to acknowledge this as a perfectly valid approach, which is where I would differ from him.

    Personally, I find what Pook says immensely inspiring and fundamental for any DJ. However, I also find that to a certain extent, I do need some technique in order to be able to actualise it.

    Anyway, I think my point has been made, so I will be ending the post here.

    rgds
    B9
     
  13. Pook

    Pook Master Don Juan

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    Drixa is exactly right. The Secret of the Jerk was the response to this thread.

    The only reason why I'm here at Sosuave is to help myself. I have absolutely no interest in being an 'authority' or 'star poster' or anything of the such. I just want to correct my own flaws and discover life. I don't care about the DJ Bible, I don't care about any of the forum mechanics, or the forum custodians, or anything of the such.

    When I do a post, I basically talk to myself.The post is something I've found that helps me, that is why it appears in the 'tips' section. If I wanted to discuss it, it would go in the discussion section. (Many people do not understand this distinction and start ranting on my threads and don't understand why I don't respond. There's no need to discuss anything. The posts end up becoming so long because I already put in the questions within the post.)

    There is a trend lately where people do not see the posts, they just see 'Pook'. So when a Pook post appears, they go 'pook baiting' (term coined by Ice-pick). A good example of this is the 'Habit is All' thread. A very simple message (that provided clarity in my life) but obsfuscated by nonsensical replies.

    My mission is to try to correct the Pook. I actually don't care about anything else. Things that help me I put out on the table, since maybe some of you guys have the same problems I did. If the post sounds like Latin to you, then don't consider it. We're all here to fix ourselves. Because the focus is on ourselves.

    I think that was when my Big Change came was when I realized that I was the problem, not the women. That's why I rage against the 'focus on women/controlling women/tactics' posts (or rather, when they rage at me). The solution to your problems is not in the woman but in yourself, but it does take a type of humility to realize that YOU are the problem (consider the Nice Guy: HE is right and the WORLD/WOMEN are wrong. He is backwards. He is wrong and the WOMEN are right).

    I've been here for 3-4 years. Looking at my past posts, I can see how A leads into B and then to C and so on. For example, the Kill That Desperation post (for me) slammed the door shut on 'tricks' and 'tactics'. So what else was there to do? After that came "Be A Man" which seperated sexuality from intercourse. This slammed the door on me on all the 'lay reports' and all. We are in a habit nowadays of defining sexuality only to matters of sex when, in fact, it goes well beyond intercourse.

    Thus, a male and a man are not one but two. Anyone can be androgenous. And being an androgenous is not a virtue, and being masculine is not a vice.

    Now, who is it that is saying 'man' and 'woman' do not exist, in their sexualized forms? Yes, gender theorists!

    Gender theorists hold that masculinity and feminity are socially imposed, in other words, artificial. I didn't realize they were the source but I did realize then that something was off sexuality wise in our world (the Nice Guys seem, not born, but manufactured). So I said, "Be a Man!" I want to free sexuality from 'just intercourse' else the world beocmes androgenous and very dull.

    In "Toward's Manhood", this thought got dealt with more. I ask a group of guys what a guy does that is MALE. The only answer they repeated was 'sex with women'. As big of supporter I am of sexing women, it shows that sexuality has been chased away and confined to the bedroom. I believe we're entering a new Puritan age where sexuality is outlawed, and allowed only through intercourse. The idea of a woman being feminine or a man being masculine drives some people nuts (as if they think they have a right to tell you how you should act!).

    Life is much more enjoyable as a masculine figure than a nerdy androgenous. Now, here is a good observation. If sexuality is banned from all arenas except for intercourse (where it cannot be banned), what is the result? The result is that society becomes more androgenous. And the result of that is that sexual intercourse becomes more and more hyped and monumentalized.

    So your grandmother was right, intercourse is 'more paraded' more than ever (if you outlaw one part of human sexuality, we just focus on the other part. Sexuality must go somewhere.) [Also, the Pleasantville analogy of the Human race not discovering sex until the 60s is wrong. The 50's and 40's probably had more sex than today. After all, where did the BABY BOOM come from?]

    We are all worms crawling between heaven and earth. The 'Towards Manhood' post went on detailing the 'heaven link' of Man. The 'Secret of the Jerk' post details the 'earth link' of Man. Personally, I think the 'Towards Manhood' post is a far better post than 'Secret of the Jerk' (because nowadays, everyone focuses on the earth link, never on the heaven link) but everyone seems very bent on the 'earth link'.

    We are all centuars and we ride the beast through this world. Both elements, of the beast and the 'mind/soul', ought to be understood. What good does it do to cut off the 'heaven element' and make no differences between us and apes, wolves, dogs, or norwegian rats?

    Secret of the Jerk II focuses on the 'earth link' of sexuality being morality whereas Brave New World focuses on the 'heaven link' of sexuality being morality. Both are to be dealt with.

    Posts like 'Feminism on Trial' and such is my attack on what these Neo Puritans, these feminists, are doing with sexuality.

    I gave up trying to figure out 'how to get women' and 'understanding women' because I kept coming back to defining men. Just as you cannot define day without defining night, so too you cannot define women without defnining men. Thus, my focus became placed on SEXUALITY, meaning both sexes and the laws that influence them. I want to mine the secrets of Nature to see how that can better myself. I have no desire to be seen as an Oracle and I despise people who see me as one.
    -------------------

    One thing I still cannot understand is why people talk of 'Pook' as a person. There seems to be a contest going about who can best psycho-analyze the Pook. Alas, I wasn't invited to such a contest and when I say what I am, people don't believe it (!).

    I tell you exactly how I think with my posts. But that is not enough, Pook is either 'this' or 'that'.

    Consider this thread. I posted here because they kept on talking of Pook, psychoanalyzing him, etc. etc. That pissed me off as they don't know Pook and I'm the only one who really does. So the speed seducers came after me. They said, "Saying 'Be a Man' is not enough! We need practical advice!" Throughout all this, the Secret of the Jerk was on my computer (which dealt very much with the 'earth-plane'). I grew tired of all this and just decided to post the article.

    And everyone shut up. Why? Because instead of trying to understand themselves, they tried to 'understand Pook'. "Pook is this... Pook is that..." Pook is Pook. What more needs to be said?

    Consider a recent example with PowerEgo. He accused the Pook of being a (oh that term) workaholic and that I was demanding everyone to become a workaholic. I kept talking to him just so he would keep talking, knowing full well the Fountain of Youth post was on my computer. When I grew tired of him, I just posted FoY and that was that.

    Look at this quote I got from another board:

    These people condemn the Pook for being an intellectual! (btw, how can you 'plagiarize' the classics? Classics aren't copyrighted. And I haven't even gotten STARTED on the classics and the knowledge of sexuality they hold!)

    Yet, some people are currently angry at me because I have been busy 'bashing' intellectuals!

    So which is it, guys? Am I an intellectual or not an intellectual?

    As you can imagine, this is so comedic as would be worthy of the pen of Moliere!

    Lately, some people say, "Pook is mysnomic! He hates women!"

    Yet, I have series of posts where a youth goes, "Evil women! Evil women!" and paints women as evil and I show that the youth wrong, and that women may very well be the opposite.

    All these attempts to 'psycho-analyze' the Pook are going to be wrong. stop worrying about the Pook and worry about yourselves. If you don't like what the Pook says, don't listen to him.

    "Pook is a big fat egotist!"

    Yet, I have posts detailing that progress only comes through humility (as one who thinks he knows all the answers will never post anything new 'since he knows everything').

    I have been accused and labeled as everything under the sun. What is funny is even when I am truthful abotu who I am (like in the Feminism on Trial thread), people don't believe it and think I'm lying! No, I am who I've said I am.
     
  14. Pook

    Pook Master Don Juan

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    If this website disapeared tomorrow, I wouldn't know the difference. For those of you who think that I am here just 'for attention' (which is odd since I run away whenever someone tries to talk to me), consider I have 100 pages of pookish text on my computer right now. Should I upload it or not? It doesn't matter to me, I wrote it for myself. A couple of the posts have been sitting on my computer for YEARS.

    The purpose of this post is to tell you guys to STOP WASTING YOUR TIME in psycho-analyzing Pook. I will know Pook more than you ever will, and you cannot grasp someone based purely on their words (as the above 'coloring' pook always ends up wrong).

    Some people think I am a buddist. Others think I am gay (!). Still, others think I hate women, others thing I am just a nerd wtih a computer, others think I am a really old guy, and my favorite, some people think I'm secretly a woman!

    It pleases me that your imagination is intact, as that is Nature's greatest gift to us. I wish you guys would apply that imagination to yourself and remake yourselves how you see fit.

    Let's just deal with the ideas presented and leave out the personalities. After all, you came here to help yourself, not to fantasize over poster. Pook cannot help you but you can help yourself. You can choose to deconstruct people (put up a strawman image you imagine and attack that) or we can get to business on discovering the secrets of women and nature.

    I'm finding "Pook" to now get in the way of the posts. I ought to start going by another name but then people would go, "Fake! Fake! Someone trying to imitate the Pook!" haha. So only one option is left... don't be surprised to come to the forum one day to find Pook imploding in an explosion of content...

    ..and leaving only a gift behind.
     
  15. iqqi

    iqqi Master Don Juan

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    hi pookie! what if i told you that i am both androgenous and the sexiest MF alive at the same time? could you comprehend that? it is quite interesting actually, how it all works out.

    i too had this impression if you remember, so maybe it is the way you present things. you clarified it nicely for me, though in the other post. but maybe you should look into why you are coming across this way to so many peeps.
     
  16. Pook

    Pook Master Don Juan

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    Madame Iqqi,

    When I say 'androgenous', I mean it in the term of LACK of sexuality, not in having qualities of both sexes.

    For example, there is much nonsense going on about 'metrosexuals'. What is a metrosexual? It is a guy applying feminine sexuality.

    Now, women, like me, can only be attracted to some sexual characteristic. If you compare Nice Guy (no sexuality) to Metrosexual (feminine sexuality), the Metrosexual guy gets the girls by default.

    Is it not odd we don't hear anything about metrosexual females? Hmm...

    My dearest Iqqi,

    People have so many impressions of me, that I cannot spend my time, day and night, figuring out why I come this or that way to them.

    I won't let anyone steal my joy. If they want to think Pook is a gay woman surrounded by candles and incense, let them. It doesn't have an impression in my life that 1s and 0s on the Internet get the wrong idea of who I am.

    Because it is never about me. The PMs and question posts I get are like 80% personal questions and very little to do with the content at hand.
     
  17. iqqi

    iqqi Master Don Juan

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    that is cool, but my point is that maybe it is something YOU think that makes you come across this way. maybe you don't realize that you are projecting some subconsious ideas you aren't aware you have, and others are picking up on it.

    hell, fcuk what others think, i concur! but...i know you are all about self improvement and that you do alot of introspection. i am just pointing out that maybe others are picking up on something even you are unaware of just yet.

    i haven't met you personally so i couldn't really say what i myself think about your feelings and attitudes toward women, i am just going off of this trend of thought about you that i myself was part of at one time.

    but its all about you, baby. :cool:
     
  18. ShortTimer

    ShortTimer Banned

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    You mean like how he always talks about women as 'Nature's Emissaries?' Instead of women being people they are some special pseudo-mystical being that is transcendental in nature? The nice guy is a misogynist because he sees women as angels and not as people; jerks are misogynists because they see women as the dirt beneath their feet and not as people. See where this is going?

    That would be door number two.

    Not everyone. Some people will only understand or even consider agreeing with an idea after they have torn it apart, dissected it and gotten the post-mortem from the coroner. Attacking flaws in ideas is just how some people gain deeper understanding as to what the claimant is trying to say. Science and philosophy call it ‘peer review’ …

    And they are absolutely right it's not enough. From my personal experience I cannot imagine telling someone the best way to learn how to fight is to adopt the right mindset and 'just do it.' Yes, mindset is PART of the equation but it's not enough. If you learn no strategy or technique you'll lose to a fighter who has strategy, technique, mindset and experience. The same is true when dealing with women, it's a skill just like Dale Carnegie's How to win friends and influence people talks about the skill of socializing. Eventually those skills become so ingrained and so much a part of you, that they ARE you. Eventually you ARE a charming guy and not just faking it, eventually you ARE the thing every woman craves and not just faking it; eventually you ARE a good fighter and not just a pretender.

    Surely deception is uncalled for, but let's not pretend this is just a case of 'wrong thinking.'
     
  19. ShortTimer

    ShortTimer Banned

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    What exactly makes you believe that gender isn't socially imposed? Because it's obvious to you? :rolleyes:

    Human beings are capable of learning many ways to do things and certainly different sex rolls are one of those things. Sure I have more testosterone than a female and I have greater upper body strength; biology may give predispositions to behavior but it is not destiny. Don't tell me to 'be a man' because those words are truly meaningless. I can no more not be male than I cannot be a white guy.

    Ah but you mean, "act masculine" and that's were this idea of yours falls apart. If looked at from a historical perspective the 'ideal man' has changed over recorded history. Shall I be the ideal man of Confucius who would have me serve a master? Or shall I be the ideal male of Ayn Rand who would have me hold no god before myself and no authority above my own reason?

    When you say, "be a man" you are really saying "be what Pook thinks is a man." Does that mean I should play sports or go skydiving? Does it mean I should dominate in a relationship or be a construction worker? You know the typical modern 'man' drinks lots of beer, reads at an 8th grade level and watch sports all the time. Is that what I should be?

    No doubt you'd say I'm misrepresenting these ideas or that I don't understand them. Perhaps you'd say I'm the philosopher women laugh at... which btw is the greatest threat you could deliver to most men: the idea that no woman could ever love them. Or maybe, just maybe these ideas of the-entity-known-as-Pook aren't as airtight as some would believe.
     
  20. B9

    B9 Senior Don Juan

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    I second that. Good stuff, SexPDX.
     

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