GUIDE TO CUTTING UP

Discussion in 'Health and Fitness' started by DIESEL, Nov 19, 2002.

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  1. DIESEL

    DIESEL Master Don Juan

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    alright.. I've been putting this off for awhile but here it is.

    The Rules:

    1. Forget all the bullshyt you read in the magazines.. it's usually wrong and it'll only confuse you.

    2. Cutting, like bulking, is simple mathematics.. calories below maintenance = fat loss.

    2b. A GOOD CUTTING PROGRAM WILL TAKE AT LEAST 8 WEEKS, MORE IF YOU'RE FATTER. THIS WILL ENSURE THAT YOU WILL RETAIN AS MUCH MASS AS POSSIBLE AND NOT END UP LOOKING LIKE A SKINNY RUNT.

    ANY OF YOU NEWBIES THAT THINK CUTTING IS EASY. WAKE THE FUKK UP. BULKING UP IS THE EASY PART.

    2c. A CUTTING CYCLE SHOULD LAST NO LONGER THAN 12-16 WEEKS (if you're really fat).. ANYTHING MORE IS TOO MUCH STRESS ON THE BODY.

    IT'S BETTER TO UP YOUR CALS GRADUALLY BACK UP TO MAINTENANCE FOR ABOUT A MONTH, TO REPLENISH YOUR BODY, BEFORE ATTEMPTING ANOTHER CUTTING CYCLE.

    3. Cardio is overrated.

    The only use for cardio for cutting purposes is to insure a negative calorie balance. However, too much cardio eats up all your muscle.

    4. NEVER GO BELOW 1600 calories.

    That's what cardio is for. Start at your baseline, then progressive cut 200 calories each week til you hit somewhere close to 1600. Once in that 1600 range you start to add cardio.

    5. Long, steady-state cardio is bullshyt.

    No cardio session should last more than 20 minutes. High intensity cardio of at least 10 but not more than 20 minutes is the key. (by intense I mean, wind sprint level effort). Start at 2 - 3 sessions per week, and continue to add as needed.

    6. Low-carb diets are bullshyt, unless you are on the juice (specifically the cutting drugs) .

    They leave you flat, and your workouts/strength will suffer... The carbs to avoid like the plague are the starchy carbs like pasta, white rice, and potatoes

    7. Most of your carbs should come from fat free dairy, green vegetables and moderate portions of brown rice and potatoes. Only green veggie carbs after 8PM.

    8. Suggested macro nutrient ratios:

    Carbs: 1-1.2g / # body weight
    Protein: 2g./ # body weight
    Fat : as little as possible, take one tablespoon of flaxseed oil with protein and no carbs before bed.

    most of your daily carbs should come in the three hour window following your weight workout. (see GUIDE TO BULKING for more info)

    9. Supplementation

    Vitamin C, B, E, CLA, herbal fat burner, creatine, and glutamine (although optional)

    10. About training: YOU TRAIN EXACTLY THE SAME AS IF YOU WERE BULKING.

    I.E. CONTINUE TO LIFT HEAVY, this stimulation will keep the muscles overloaded and will retain as much mass as possible while the negative calorie balance takes off the fat. Also, it will keep the muscles hard and full..

    11. higher reps while cutting is absolute garbage.

    The people that advocate that are the jokers in the magazines who are all juiced, so what they do or don't do is irrelevant, the amount of drugs they are on insures success either way.

    For the natural lifter, it's a one way ticket to losing big time mass....

    To recap: cutting is negative calorie balance while continuing to lift heavy to keep as much of the mass you have on you.

    good luck,
    D

    [This message has been edited by DIESEL (edited 11-19-2002).]
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. STR8UP

    STR8UP Master Don Juan

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    How much should you expect to drop over the course of 8 weeks?

    I hear that.

    I was under the impression that if you go this far below maintenance your body will attempt to save excess fat. Not true?

    If I need around 2500 to maintain, 1600 is a deficit of 900. Sounds like a big drop. Especially if you add a couple hundred more per day to the equation by doing cardio.

    Its time for me to lose some excess flab so if you recommend it I'll certainly give it a shot.

    Creatine didn't do much for me, so I dropped it. I am taking glutamine and a multivitamin. Which herbal fat burner do you recommend? Ephedra fukks me up BAD.
     
  3. DIESEL

    DIESEL Master Don Juan

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    1. What you lose depends on your metabolism - I can' t really predict it. Let's just say, you'll definitely see the difference.

    2. In your case the 2500 to 1600 drop should take you about 6-7 weeks. The metabolic shutdown you are talking about will happen if you drop 900 cals off the bat.

    However, by systematically dropping as the weeks go on your body should adjust quite nicely to the calorie deficit, and the extra high intensity cardio keeps it burning fat efficiently long after you leave the gym

    for example.. you may try.. 2500-2350-2100-2000-1900-1800-1700-1600 - while going from 3 to 5 short cardio sessions per week as time goes on.

    If you were to go into light lifting (10+ reps) while doing this, you will lose tons of muscle. that's why even though you may notice your strength go down a bit b/c of the reduced calories, to continue to lift heavy (ie.. reaching failure in the 4-8 rep range) this will insure that you keep the most muscle you can, and when you do start to notice the definition, your muscles will look full and pumped.

    Also, the reduction in calories necessitates the extra supplementation I outlined in the original post

    3. As for a non-ephedra herbal fat burner.. you got me. .. I usually go with straight ephedrine/caffeine when I use a fat burner. I would say, make sure it's ephedra-free on the label. Sorry, but can't help you on that one.

    4. Oh yeah, you might want to do a cycle of MAG-10 or 1-AD (which is just as good and MUCH cheaper ) on the tail end (last 4-6 weeks) of a cutting cycle. Consider it an insurance policy against losing too much muscle.

    peace and good luck,
    D
     
  4. BigManB69

    BigManB69 Banned

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    Give some reason as to why cardio sessions lasting for over 20 minutes are, as u put it, "bullshyt."
     
  5. DIESEL

    DIESEL Master Don Juan

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    For the purposes of cutting up to retain muscle mass.. it's bull****.

    long cardio is for people who don't have the lungs or the balls to go hardcore. A short hyper-intense workout will have way more benefit on the body that some bullshyt, negative intensity, long cardio workout.

    If you want to look like a marathon runner, then knock yourself out on the cardio.. if you don't participate in an endurance sport, long term cardio is pointless.. DIET not CARDIO is the key.

    Your body will metabolize muscle mass just as well as it will fat. If anything it's easier for your body to metabolize muscle mass (4 calories per gram of muscle) than it is for it to metabolize fat. (9 calories per gram) -

    if long cardio is so good, how come none of those endurance cyclists while lean are not shredded with evident muscularity. Yet, it's the sprinters who look like they are chiseled out of marble ??
     
  6. DJ Girevik

    DJ Girevik Senior Don Juan

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    How about long, high intensity cardio? I'm no stranger to doing both that and heavy lifting at the same time (Dance Dance Revolution. If you don't know what DDR is, it's "that arcade/Playstation game where you hit the arrows that are scrolling on the screen") and my endurance has gone up so much that I'm now one of the best non-CC runners I know, even at a weight of about 230 pounds, and I've lost 20-30 pounds on DDR since I got it. Still, is the sheer amount of cardio I do (30-60 minutes a day, 3-5 days a week) too much? I never really watch how many calories I eat but I'm no fast food junkie either, and I usually burn it all off because I'm almost always doing something.

    Also, my lifting (usually 5 days a week, none on weekends) is usually between bodybuilderish (high percentage of my max at 5 or so reps) and heavy lifting. Is my workout routine too much or since I probably eat more, is it good? (btw, I'm not really going on any cutting routines, just seeking general advice)
     
  7. Eltosian

    Eltosian Don Juan

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    Stick to fast songs like "Drop Out," "Paranoia," "La Senorita Virtual," "Afranova Primeval" and "Dead End." [​IMG]

    I was the most ripped in my life when I did HIIT, Tabata Protocol two or three times a week. (I switched to twice a week because I was losing weight too fast.) Essentially, 5 minute warm-up, then six cycles of 20 second sprints and 10 second jogs, followed by a couple minutes of cool down. Around 10 minutes. I recently finished playing soccer, and I am a little fatter, and have a little less muscle. In general, high intensity sprint intervals is much preferable to slow cardio for aesthetics.
     
  8. DIESEL

    DIESEL Master Don Juan

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    Clarification:

    what I mean by "high intensity" cardio is effort at or near your AT (anaerobic threshold) - the point where you are short of breath and lactic acid burn sets in.

    If you can hold that kind of intensity for more than twenty minutes either you are NOT at AT or you are cardiovascular mutant. Probably the former.

    D
     
  9. DgrenJ

    DgrenJ Don Juan

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    DIESEL...

    What would your recommendation be for me...

    I'm currently 5'8 (155 pounds) and according to a Tanita Body Fat scale about 15% bf. Flat stomach, but like no appearance of abs whatsoever...

    How many calories would u suggest I eat a day... and how long would you say it would take to hit under 10% bf?

    thx...

    - DgrenJ
     
  10. DIESEL

    DIESEL Master Don Juan

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    155 x .85 = 131.75 lbs. of lean body mass

    131.75 x 1.1 (assuming you want 10%bf and you don't put on any muscle..) = 145 lbs.

    which means you have to lose 10 lbs. of pure body fat to get to 10% b.f.

    figuring out your baseline

    155 x 1. 2 = 186 grams of carbs = 744 cals

    155 x 2 = 310 grams of protein = 1240 cals

    30 grams of fat per day = 270 cals

    744+1240+270 = 2254

    start at 2254 cals then start cutting 150 calories each week

    cut 75 cals (about 19 grams from carbs) and 75 cals (about 19 grams from protein) a week till you hit the 1600 mark, and you'll still be hitting 30g fats, 220 grams protein, and 110 grams carbs AT 1600 CALORIES.. CAN YOU SAY NUTRIENT DENSE... then level off doing intense cardio till you hit the 12 week plateau and your'e not a 10% b.f.

    this applies for any weight/ body fat .. this was done as an example..

    D
     
    beautiful girlLearn a simple little mind game called The Scrambler that has the power to make a girl chase you... even if she wasn't attracted to you to begin with.
  11. progressive

    progressive Don Juan

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    Diesel, some interesting thoughts you have there. I'm going to give them a go.

    Do you think regular high intensity cardio workouts as you desscribe are sufficient for a healthy circulation system and other benefits? It seems to me that say 10 minutes of even daily high intensity cardio would have no substantial benefits, but then again, I haven't tried it.

    Also wonder what you reckon to my workout:

    I work long hours so basically I can only run in the morning:

    weekdays:
    0550 wake up, go for 20 minute run, at the moment this is medium/normal/aerobic intensity.
    Fruit for breakfast
    Brown bread sandwich with meat filling for lunch, no butter, mayo, sometimes cheese.
    Only get home at about 7/8 so normally I cook something up usually about 500 calories or something, its usually the only great meal of the day. I realise this is late but I don't get home earlier and would rather not eat only vegetables or protein.

    Weekend: one workout, cardio as above, eat what I want, don't eat too much cr@p throughout whole weekend.

    Also add in maybe one night per week getting drunk.

    Now I'm 157 pounds and 5'7" small to medium frame. Bit of a gut. I think my ideal weight is something like 145 pounds.....

    Oh yeah I also got a basic set of dumbbells which I try to use 2/3 times per week.
    I can forget about the gym because round where I live it costs about 80 bucks/month!

    I was wondering to your/others opinions on this workout. What kind of satisfying food would you suggest for evening meal during the week. Its hard when I get home, all I see is sh1t filled with carbs.

    Oh, whats everyone's opinion on frying food? Is it bad/good for you? Say lean meat and vegetables, thats pretty low fat right? Is it bad for you to fry?
     
  12. DJ Girevik

    DJ Girevik Senior Don Juan

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    Yup, how d'you think my endurance grew so much? [​IMG] *wants to get a PS2 and DDRMAX*

    Is 5 straight weightlifting workout days too much? I never really pay attention to what bodypart I'm working though, and I never get fatigued, just sore.
     
  13. Eltosian

    Eltosian Don Juan

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    Just started playing DDR Max yesterday. The freeze arrows are a sweet addition!

    Depends.

    The top Bulgarian lifters train 6 days a week, 2-3 times per day. As do many Eastern Bloc countries. On the other hand, Ed Coan squats once a week. Obviously, there are many methods that work. I am currently lifting (Oly-style) 4 times a week and doing HIIT twice a week, but I never attempt any lift I'm not sure I'll make and I rarely, if ever, have any DOMS.
     
  14. dj blass

    dj blass Don Juan

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    Great post and totally agree with everything except two things.

    Disagree:
    "5. Long, steady-state cardio is bullshyt. "

    There is substantial data/research that suggest for optimal fat loss is best to do light cardio, first thing in the morning on an empty stomach. The key is NOT to use your muscles as fuel, thus you only do a light walk or mid-extensity. Both methods work, I just dont think that the only way to go is with high intesity low time cardio.

    "6. Low-carb diets are bullshyt, unless you are on the juice "
    I disagree 100% with you on this one. How can you prove to me that High fat Low carbs diet don't work? Again, this is a matter of opinion, but I dont think that you have to always go with the traditional methods. Both diets (High Fat - Low carb and Low Fat - High Carb Diets) have their their flaws, no single diet is ment to be perfect.

    **{Ketogenic diet has a muscle sparing effect compared to higher carb diets due in the most part to the huge supply of fatty acids and ketones. And, during the low carb period growth hormone is also high, further speeding fat loss and preventing muscle loss.
    }**

    Read for yourself :

    "Atkins diet beats low-fat fare" http://www.msnbc.com/news/836726.asp?cp1=1

    Im trying to pick on anyone, just trying to help out. Bye
     
  15. Eltosian

    Eltosian Don Juan

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    Please point us to some of this "evidence." Speaking from experience, low-intensity cardio results in serious muscle loss. HIIT is the way to go. One study found that the HIIT group lost 9 times as much fat as the slow-cardio group!

    Low-carb diets have some merit. But Atkins has a lot of his facts wrong with his "theories." Dr. Greg Ellis's version of the low-carb diet is much more sensible.

    Low carbs are possible, but never eliminate carbs. Right now, I'm eating a lot of carbs, fat and protein since I'm trying to gain a little weight for football next year, but that's a different story.
     
  16. DIESEL

    DIESEL Master Don Juan

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    I never said lo-carb diets don't work - they do.

    What I am saying is that it's a bad idea for athletes.. . especially if they are lifting without any anabolic assistance.

    Just because the bodybuilders in the magazines are doing it, doesn't mean you should be doing it too.

    Those are the last guys I'd take nutrition advice from... what they do is downright unhealthy and dangerous.

    Trust me, if you're not taking the drugs they are taking, you will feel the effects of low-carb dieting in the gym.

    I think the approach I'm advocating is a much more reasonable and equally/if not more effective alternative.
     
  17. DIESEL

    DIESEL Master Don Juan

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    This idea, as I said somewhere before has just gotten out of hand over the years... I think we have Bill Phillips and his "Body for Life" crusade to blame for this one.

    Long steady cardio and cardio on an empty stomach are pointless.. it's like I said a matter of simple mathematics.

    You will lose weight doing that.. but WHAT PERCENT OF THAT WEIGHT WILL BE MUSCLE MASS?

    I'm willing to bet a much higher proportion of weight loss will be muscle on that routine, than on the one I'm advocating.

    Why? Because HIIT has an ANABOLIC effect. Redlining the cardiovascular system in HIIT to the body is the same thing as doing a 20rep set of squats.. OVERLOAD CITY.. and voila.. increased production of Test and GH.. the good shyt we need to keep us big and strong.. that's why muscle mass retention is way better doing HIIT than it is doing "wussy cardio" and why sprinters tend to have way more muscle mass than the distance runners.
     
  18. Viroid

    Viroid Master Don Juan

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    HIIT is the way to go. One study found that the HIIT group lost 9 times as much fat as the slow-cardio group!


    Please post those that study.
     
  19. Viroid

    Viroid Master Don Juan

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  20. Derek Flint

    Derek Flint Master Don Juan

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    I went low-carb (25 grams a day or less) on March 11th of this year.

    At the time, I weighed 245 lbs. (mostly fat)

    Today, I weigh 180 lbs.

    Didn't hit the gym or exercise the entire time, although I plan to start after New Years.

    Not only do I have much more energy, but I sleep better, require less sleep, my blood pressure and bad cholesterol levels are down and I feel 1000% better.
     

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