Clubbing failure?

Discussion in 'Don Juan Discussion' started by Nicholas Hill, Dec 21, 2002.

  1. Nicholas Hill

    Nicholas Hill Master Don Juan

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    What a comparison...

    The University ball (I described it all before!). I pulled four women, snogged one for 45 minutes and felt her up quite a bit.

    Update: She hasn't SMSed me back or anything. (Next, I think)

    Anyway, with such success in mind I decided to try a Saturday night in the same club. This time without a pretext of a "University Event", without all of my friends, without any form of social proof at all.

    I got up there and danced. (Badly?) And even tried to pull a few women in, but alas, at 1:00 am I gave in and left, horny and alone. Felt pretty bad then.

    The last thing I wanted was to be on Death Row (ie: People who stay at the side hoping chicks approach them) so I did the dancing thing as described. But I also noticed those chumps who did what I did and went up to random people.

    People dressed a lot sexier. There was a larger age range. More shields than I'd ever expect.

    How did I go from Stud Nick to just chumpy Nick? Is social proof that important?

    All responses are great!

    - Nick
     
  2. griffin_mill

    griffin_mill Don Juan

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    Yes. So are pivots. Take one with you.

    Did you do any approaches?
     
  3. De La Soul

    De La Soul Master Don Juan

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    Nicholas,

    Although clubbing isn't my strongest PU area, I have managed my fair share over the past couple of years. To me, it seems like you've got a couple of little problems...

    Firstly, the most obvious factor - your lack of social proof. I think we all know and appreciate just how important social proof can be (it's not essential, but it helps your image immeasurably). I don't know how experienced you are in the clubbing world, but I'm definite you knew (and might have been thinking about) as you walked into the club, the fact that you had zero social proof and what the possible implications of that might be.

    That brings me to my next point: your state of mind. Not only does social proof have a big impact on your image, but it can also greatly affect your own confidence. Some people who go to clubs alone a lot can handle not having any social proof (I sometimes have more fun when I'm alone at a club), but others feel like women without make-up - exposed. I'm of the opinion that you were walking into the club seeing a lot of hot babes dancing in circles with their boyfriends, and girlfriends, and friends of friends, and you probably felt pretty exposed. Being alone in a club environment can do that to you. If you're feeling exposed, you're DEFINITELY NOT feeling your most confident and relaxed. And when you're nervous and uptight, it's hard to pull off PUs successfully. So we see already some of the flow-on effects that a lack of social proof can lead to.

    Already we've establised that you had no social proof, which means you image in the eyes of the other clubbers might not have been at its peak. More importantly, we've established that you probably knew this, and as a result you were feeling "exposed" (self-conscious, nervous, uptight).

    Now, what do we all do at clubs? We dance! And yes, it sounds like you definitely danced, but I noticed your comment in parantheses:
    As you were dancing, at the same time you were thinking a lot of things: Do I look like a wanker dancing alone? Should I approach that babe over there, even though that guy is standing next to her? Should I stop dancing and observe possible targets more carefully? No! I mustn't join "death-row", etc.

    With all these thoughts sloshing around in your mind, Nicholas, I put it to you that you WERE dancing badly! That's right, I believe that you were. But that's not what's important here! What's important, is the fact that you were probably dancing badly because you were worried about so many different factors, let alone the fact that you had NOBODY to dance with and laugh with, and you were already feeling exposed! So yes, you might have been dancing badly, and that's because you were worried, had no mates to fall back on, self-conscious, and you were probably also thinking, Sh*t, am I dancing like a headless chook?

    BUT, even if you were indeed dancing like a decapitated farm-yard animal, it didn't all have to go down the drain. Have you ever noticed those guys who just go crazy, jumping around, totally getting into the music and who attract adoring girls like magnets? Do you think they're worrying about who might be watching, or how they look, or any of those worries? No! Nicholas, you don't have to be a qualified salsa dancer or a champion break dancer to look good on the dancefloor!

    The real chumps of the dancefloor, are those guys you see (and you may have been one of them) who don't dance with any conviction. They look like they're caught between wanting to let go and just dance, and not wanting to be seen to be having a good time! The trick to dancing is to just LET GO and VISIBLY HAVE A GOOD TIME. Jump around. Shake your ass. Smile.

    I also noticed that you were DETERMINED not to join "death-row" (the group of guys who just stand and watch the dancers). I can relate to what you're saying, I've felt the same way at times, but it's important to realise that all "rules" can be broken. I'd venture to say, that on this occassion, you should have broken that rule. It wouldn't have hurt to simply take a break from the dancefloor, sit down and grab yourself a quite drink. Observe the scene, work out what you want, workout what you'll have to do differently to succeed, and then get back into it.

    Finally, it seems like you were a little bit unprepared. You said that people dressed sexier, there was a larger age range, and there were a lot of shields - all these things took you by surprise. So you were on the back foot from square one. It's always good to find out a little bit about the event you're going to (the crowd, the dress, the vibe) before you just rock up. 10 minutes of club research is rarely a wasted 10 minutes.

    I think that covers it. So get back on that horse, lad! And go hard!

    De La Soul
     
  4. Nicholas Hill

    Nicholas Hill Master Don Juan

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    Yo griffin.

    Excuse my feebleosity, but what is a pivot? I thought i knew all of the words, but not that one!

    I tried to make social proof by shaking hands with some alpha men (some shook hands with me too without prompting). I thought it was the thing to do. But that's about all I could do.
     
  5. Nicholas Hill

    Nicholas Hill Master Don Juan

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    I shall go through them with you, DeLa!

    Thanks for your lengthy and very helpful response, first of all...

    Yes I knew. Before I went in there I said to myself the following:

    "Nick, this one is not going to be as easy as last week. You're going in there with nothing on your side, and you may have to make your own social proof, or at least look comfortable, for what you think of yourself is always picked up on by others."

    Is there any way at all we can succeed without social proof?

    I was with my family yesterday watching my sister in a play. At the end I went to my dad (who was on the other side of the massive hall, for I am in a divorced family) and the stepmom and auntie were happy to see me. Young friends of that side of the family were there, and because of this INSTANT social proof (lots of kino from stepmom for example), the two younger girls got excited to (finally) meet me!

    As much as that was true, I knew that it would have been an obsticle before I went in. My mindset was "if I can get myself comfortable here, then I have partially succeeded, and if I get laid, all the better..."

    How do I go about a PU in a noisy club? Surely there can be nothing but body language to begin the attraction, so that you may then lead her aside. If I knew how to portray myself, I'd work on it. In a few months my questions may then change to "How do I hold a decent conversation?"... :p

    Watching those chumps walking around the dancefloor, as alone as me, reminded me of how bad things can get. Those men think they are great, but they too realise at the end of the night that they go home alone, except for a *lucky* few. I saw a woman who had kissed someone 5 minutes into the session (one lucky man). I saw her kiss about four different people that night.

    I'm getting better... i'm more with "the flow" now rather than a jumping jack.

    As I started to dance, a woman came from behind me, grabbed my backside cheek and continued walking. What's the masculine response to this? (I never found out who it was... but next time I'd be more impulsive with my response)

    I highlighted a bit in underline. I kept seeing guys with certain women I wanted to approach, and I thought to myself "If I go to that girl, I'll get beaten up (false assumption) by that guy!". Guys stick together, I hear, and are fundamentally loyal to each other. I'm still relatively new to the clubbing scene, so I still don't really know the "protocol" for picking up. Ie:

    • When is a woman taken?
    • How do I know when a woman is there to get laid?
    • How do I know when a woman is there just to get drinks from men?
    • What do I do to say subtly "I like you, want me to give you a chance?"

    I still am amazed at how much a person's own thoughts are INSTANTLY picked up on by others.

    I was eating an Indian with my best three friends for the end of (University) term. I noticed behind me a man and a woman. The woman ate that man up and I felt sorry for the man. WE ALL PICKED UP ON HIS AFCness. Here are some random quotes:

    • Woman: "You know, my sister would like your sense of humour"
    • Man: "What do I order... err... what do you like?"
    • Man: Let me buy you a drink... any one"

    This is the crux though, I knew how bad he was at the dating game BEFORE I heard any of this. His body language sucked (and I was looking from the CORNER OF MY EYE!). It was obvious that he had found this girl and is feeling VERY LUCKY to be in her presence. Two questions:

    Who had the power in that relationship?
    Which pedestal-creating boy takes an alpha woman he'd just met to a fancy Indian resteraunt?

    I understand that. That's what I already aimed for, but I didn't hit the mark.

    Towards the end I noticed those half happy men, who while dancing, were trying to decide whether or not to dance. Brrrrr! God forbid I would be so indecisive. I always say to myself "Nick, your indecisiveness will get you killed". Not dead, I know, but it will KILL my persona.

    "Where do you want to go nick?"
    "Err...", I reply
    "See you later!!"

    OK, so that isn't really the case. But its tightly linked into insecurity. No-one shines to an insecure chump. Only out of pity.

    As much as that is good advice, if I get off the field, I'd spend ages trying to get back into it.

    I did have a look but couldn't find out any information for the event. I just went to the club on a Sat night hoping for the best. Now I know what it is like (It doesn't fill up properly till 11:30! I'd never go at 10:00 again...)

    Thanks DeLa. Good man.

    I'm in a position where I am not afraid to do any physical thing in a club. I thought that pulling women up to you is a good way to initiate a grind but all of the women that night looked at me stupid.
     
  6. Rev

    Rev Banned

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    Probably after your 1st few dance floor rejections, you begin to look like the desperate loser who's pestering all the chicks. NO girl wants to dance with that guy. It's important to get off to a good start. I just got an idea for a new thread. You guys should come check it out.
     
  7. DJinArizona

    DJinArizona Senior Don Juan

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    I don't go to clubs much anymore but have had really good luck with hooking up when I do go. I always overdress and make sure I'm the best-dressed guy in there, and I always make small-talk with the hottest chicks in there. Even though I've never gone home with one of the 10s, it's social proof to be seen talking to them, and as long as you're dressed to kill, they'll talk and hang out with you and be friendly & nice. Oddly, I've never danced, but for some reason it never seems to come up and when I hook up with a chick, it's always in the bar area and they never ask to dance. I never ask a chick to dance because I believe it's anti-Challenge.

    When it comes to bars overall, I've found it much easier to hook up in a trendy lounge-type place with no dance floor. I think most chicks in a club are out to dance with their girlfriends while the regular bars have a higher percentage of chicks who wanna get banged that night.
     
  8. De La Soul

    De La Soul Master Don Juan

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    Nicholas, I got halfway through my follow-up reply when my mouse went crazy and started clicking everything. I had to restart my computer!!

    So when I can bring myself to re-write everything, I'll reply again. (Within the next 24 hrs)
     
  9. daredevil

    daredevil Don Juan

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    hello nicholas!

    The whole dancing thing is a very subtle one! I've almost never approached a dancing girl because I took a different tactic.
    Disclaimer: I don't reccomend it!
    3 years ago I started my dancing experience in clubs, after about six months I got better and guess what?
    The first thing IO realized about dancing is to (yes yes I'm repeating De La Soul) just LET GO and VISIBLY HAVE A GOOD TIME
    You only get better at dancing when you don't worry too much about "what the others may say"!!! (within reason of course) :D
    After about a year of dancing AND OBSERVING the others, how badly or how good they dance I became quite a good dancer!
    No point in being modest :D finally girls approached me to compliment my dance skills! Yes it happend! But it only happened about 10 times a year.
    Another thing you have to realise is that you only dance for yourself, for your own amusement wonem interest in you is only a side effect ;)
    IMHO don't worry too much about people laughing at you, because even now (being always top3 dancer in an 2000 people packed club) I am being laughed at.
    But guess what? I don't give a fvck :)



    remember that you improve yourself for yourself!!!
     
  10. De La Soul

    De La Soul Master Don Juan

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    Absolutely. But in a club environment social proof is priceless. Really, in a club there are only a few ways to attract women: looks, alphaness, SOCIAL PROOF, and dancing. Those are the big four in my opinion.

    So, if you're not super good looking, you're not the craziest alpha in the joint, and you're not exactly the smoothest on the dancefloor, you're REALLY going to struggle without social proof.

    Having said that, if you're thinking about going to a club ALONE, here are some ideas:

    [*] Don't appear to be hunting chicks. Just try and appear to be a cool guy who wants to have fun and meet other people.

    [*] Make friends with a bartender or two.

    [*] Drag a good-looking female cousin, sister, or friend along with you and use her as social proof.

    [*] Find out a little bit about the crowd before you go.

    [*] Take some time out from the dancefloor occassionally to find out who's with who, and who's all alone.

    Nicholas, a club is a meat market. You know this. As I said before, it's basically four factors for picking up in a noisy club (Looks, Alphaness, Dancing and Social proof - let's call it LADS) - verbal game is virtually taken out of the equation.

    If you're good with words but not as physically impressive, take your game to the streets, parks, bookstores, pubs, malls etc.

    Pfft, sounds like an attention *****. I could be very wrong, but that's what it sounds like. If she kept walking after she gave you an ass-squeeze, she probably wasn't interested anyway. Perhaps you could have grabbed her and started dancing, or just tapped her on the ass when you saw her next. Just go with the flow.

    There really is no "correct" response.

    I know what you're talking about. It's difficult, especially when you're new to the club scene. And I've gotta tell ya, there is NO protocol. You just have to trust your gut feeling along with your OBSERVATIONS (remember what I said about joining death row?).

    Unless you can read minds, there is no easy way to know the answers to any of the above questions, but there are ways to reduce your chances of running into aggressive guys...

    [*] Approach the group as a WHOLE (don't just single out the woman). Make friends with EVERYONE in the group (pay particular attention to possible ****blocks like ugly girls and males). Just be warm and friendly. Then, when the time is right, take your target away for a dance or a chat outside...

    [*] I've said it before and I'll say it again: OBSERVE who's with who. In a club, everything is physical - you have to use your eyes as tools to find out what's going on around you, all your other senses are useless.

    [*] Approach a girl who's on her own with a ****y/funny remark. Sure, you won't be able to hold a whole conversation in a noisy club, but a couple of well placed comments can make a girl sit up and take notice of you. Remember to OBSERVE her reactions to you. If they're negative, back out. If she's flirtatious/smiling/interested, you may have bagged a winner.

    [*] Kino is also a big weapon in a noisy club. Use it.

    [*] Never buy a woman a drink.

    [*] As for a "subtle" way of communicating your interest in a woman: eye contact + smiles, eye contact + waves, kino, ****y/funny (preferably sexual).


    Haven't you just answered both of those questions?!

    (Although the second one is a little confusing! I can't really tell if they're rhetorical questions...)

    Yup, it's all or nothing on the dancefloor.

    Don't just "pull" women in without them seeing you coming. Get some eye contact and a big smile.

    De La Soul
     
  11. wheelin&dealin

    wheelin&dealin Master Don Juan

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    I almost always roll out solo to clubs. It's a good experience because you are forced to talk to people and make friends, or else you look like a loser.

    When you enter a club, try to chat up every person you see. This will take the pressure off of you and will make you more comfortable in the place.
     
  12. Nicholas Hill

    Nicholas Hill Master Don Juan

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    Nice response DeLa. I once experienced that mouse thing too... now I have an optical wireless. Impresses the ladies greatly.

    "So, you like abusing my pointer with no strings attached eh?"

    (I'm sure some ****y git would come up with the opposite line: "You need something with balls?")

    I like that: LADS.

    I've been thinking about the concept of alphaness. Today i was in a party, and they were ALL woman (and "boys"), so I did a lot better. Why is this? I assume it was because of one simple fact:

    I assumed I was better than them

    What do I mean? I mean simply this: I was the alpha male, simply because I wanted to be. Its proven that if you're going out with a 4, you have control in the relationship and I would put forward that it is because you think you're better than the girl.

    If you're teaching young boys in school, you're the alpha because you consider them minions compared to you.

    With the same mindset, can I suggest that this would also work in a room full of men who are OLDER than you?

    This is still a theory I'm working on...

    Agreed.

    This advice is so obvious I wonder why I didn't think of this stuff. Thanks man.

    I thought that clubs would be easier than these places. Emphasis on the past tense there.

    Where, DeLa, do you think is the best place to meet girls to accomplish each of these? (Attainment of a...)

    • One night stand
    • Lay buddy
    • Long term relationship girl
    • Friend that leads to their friends

    A sample list there.



    Having just arrived I don't think it was something I could do. My mindset was terrible on entry: It was because I was TRYING to achieve a certain number of conversations, like this event was an exam.

    Noted: eye contact. Forgot all about that one. How on earth could I forget that one...

    My sister disagrees with my attitude on drinks. I say that men who buy drinks are losers trying to get some. My sis says "they should buy drinks for us because that is how it is done"

    "So this guy bought you a drink?"

    "Yes"

    "Did he get some?"

    "No"

    "He's a loser then"

    "No, he isn't"...

    Then a wholly useless illogical argument follows.

    Pah!

    Just to clarify they were rheotorical.

    Again, how could I possibly forget EC... I'm really dumb.

    Merry christmas. I'll see you in a few days and I'll respond if you do so again dela.

    Nick
     
  13. LionFox

    LionFox Don Juan

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    Wow great thread!

    I'm also new to the club scene.. only done it a few times over the past year and did horrible at it. When it's your first or second time, it really is like stepping into another planet, because my mind would be whirling wondering, what the hell is going on here, how do I figure out what's going on?

    Anyway, I have some newbie questions,,

    1. Why is it that chicks dance with chicks? They all know to do it, and I find it very sexy because of lez-like qualities of it, but very annoying!

    2. What are signs that the girl is there with her man? There to be picked up? There to tease?

    3. When is the best time to be at the club? Seems like early sucks because very people there, everyone's uptight, and lates just as bad because at that point everyone's drunk and crazy and you can't move!

    any more pointers would be great!
     
  14. Exodus

    Exodus Don Juan

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    Club failures.

    I recently went to a club, and i really only made one decent approach:

    This girl was sitting with her friend at the bar, I went and asked her name, and then i shook her hand and her friend's hand. Then we had a great conversation ( i made her laugh a lot) for about 10 minutes, but unfortunately her boyfriend showed up later so i didn't bother getting a number.

    The second approach, i was dancing and asked some girl what her name was and simultaneously put my hand out; she said her name, didn't shake my hand and turned around. A few seconds later she pointed at me and said something like "that guy just asked me for my name and wanted to shake my hand". I didn't really understand this because i didn't think it was a big deal, but it did kind of decrease my ego for a few minutes.

    Third approach was quite weak, also on the dance floor: i asked a girl if she wanted to dance and she couldn't hear anything because the music at that point was way too loud.

    Anyhow, i kept dancing, but all the girls were dancing with each other or in circles, and i didn't just want to come up behind them and grind.

    How do you approach girls like that? do they dance with each other because they don't want to get picked up ?
    Also, what's the best way to dance with a girl on the floor: eye contact and then grab her by the hand ?

    Suggestions are criticisms are welcomed.
     
  15. RL

    RL New Member

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    Couldn't stay away from this thread

    Here's a little story about clubs.

    I USED to be a big time Rave/Club DJ. I used to get a lot of messed up groupies talking to me after I'd get done playing, which only gave me EVEN MORE social proof by being on stage for an hour but I didn't think about that then, and feared rejection like it was the plague. I stayed away from most groupies and was afraid to talk to "Normal" hotties (I wish I knew then what I know now). Now don't get me wrong, I still get a few gigs but I can't stand that whole scene anymore and I'm too old (31) and the groupies like the younger talent these days, so really I'm just a regular guy at the club most of the time looking for hotties and I have to say that being 5' 5" and bald/shaved it's tough showing my alphaness at a club these days. BUT I TRY!!!! I've found that going and talking to girls while they're in the middle of dancing is almost always a bad idea. I prefer talking to girls standing next to the dance floor or after the girl stops dancing. This kinda screws up the whole "talking to a girl within the first 5 seconds you see her" but the club I go to plays music really loud and the dancefloor is not a good place to converse. The Smile/Wave works well too. The only time dancing worked well was one time when this hottie next to me started to breakdance (badly and as a joke I'm assuming) next to me, and considering my growing up in the eighties and breakdancing a little on my kitchen linolium floor when I was 12 (like everyone did at the time), I busted a couple of rusty moves and caught her attention. I danced with her and made a few jokes and she eventually told me how cool she thought I was for doing it. Anyway... she wouldn't give me her number... she said she had just gotten unengaged a couple of days ago.

    Anyway, that's my experience with clubs! It's still developing.
     
  16. wheelin&dealin

    wheelin&dealin Master Don Juan

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    Chicks dance with chicks for attention or because they have no guy to dance with.


    2. What are signs that the girl is there with her man? There to be picked up? There to tease?


    If she's making-out/holding some guy then she's there with a man. If you are unsure about this go talk to her and ask her who she's here with.

    Most girls are there to be picked up.

    Girls there to tease will be dancing all night, most likely on a stage where everyone can see them. Don't pay any attention to these *****s.


    3. When is the best time to be at the club? Seems like early sucks because very people there, everyone's uptight, and lates just as bad because at that point everyone's drunk and crazy and you can't move!


    I roll into clubs about mid way between the early stage and the drunken idiot stage. This gives me a chance to conversate with HBs and then grind them if I want.
     
  17. Big N

    Big N Senior Don Juan

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    About the ass-squeezing thing. This is a technique that I have used in the past successfully. When they grab your ass and start walking away, you sneak up behind them and spank their ass hard. When I did this, the girl turned around with this "I cant believe you just did that" look. I just stood there grinning. She then came back at me and slapped my ass. After that, I was slapping her ass for the rest of the night.
     
  18. De La Soul

    De La Soul Master Don Juan

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    Yep. Expect success from yourself and you'll get success. Expect failure from yourself and you'll get get failure. It's pretty simple.

    As for the relationship with a 4, believing that you're better than her is almost certaintly one of the factors in the male having the control (but also that she probably thinks she "needs" you).

    ONLY IF they respect you. I remember when I was at school, I was such a ****y little smartass, and I was a bit of the alpha in the classroom (even if my teachers all thought they were better than me).

    Remember, being the alpha male doesn't just result from a feeling of entitlement, to be a true alpha you've also gotta gain the respect of the people around you.


    You've gotta have the right mindset (entitlement), yes, but you also have to have their respect.

    It's not really the place that you meet the girl that determines what sort of relationship is likely to form, or what kind of relationship the girl would be best for. Perhaps clubs and pubs are better for one-night-stands, perhaps bookstores and parks are better for LTRs and friends, but at the end of the day it's really dependent on two factors: how you treat the girl, what kind of girl she is. (It would be a huge generalisation to say that all ONS chicks congregate at clubs, and all LTR chicks hang out at parks or something like that)


    Sometimes it;s not bad to set goals like that, but it's more important to have fun and go with the flow. The best times to set goals like that are when you're already relaxed and comfortable (like when you're with friends for example).


    Of course she's going to say that, Nick! Why WOULDN'T she want guys to buy her drinks? WATCH HER ACTIONS NOT HER WORDS. It's just like they SAY they'd fvck guys who bought them flowers and chocolates every day, and wrote them love sonnets, and had long teary conversations about their problems etc.

    If you do it well, and follow it up quickly. Eye contact can be a great weapon.

    Merry Christmas.

    De La Soul
     
  19. kickman72

    kickman72 Don Juan

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    The first thing IO realized about dancing is to (yes yes I'm repeating De La Soul) just LET GO and VISIBLY HAVE A GOOD TIME
    You only get better at dancing when you don't worry too much about "what the others may say"!!! (within reason of course)
    After about a year of dancing AND OBSERVING the others, how badly or how good they dance I became quite a good dancer!
    No point in being modest finally girls approached me to compliment my dance skills! Yes it happend! But it only happened about 10 times a year.
    Another thing you have to realise is that you only dance for yourself, for your own amusement wonem interest in you is only a side effect
    IMHO don't worry too much about people laughing at you, because even now (being always top3 dancer in an 2000 people packed club) I am being laughed at.
    But guess what? I don't give a fvck

    thats so true. man ill go on a dance floor w/ no one on it and just have a good time and groups of women will approch me
    :D
     
  20. Nicholas Hill

    Nicholas Hill Master Don Juan

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    B U M P

    Just reigniting a thread from the end of last year...

    Nick
     

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