An Important Part of a LTR: Friendship

Discussion in 'Don Juan Tips' started by VeryBadGirl, May 15, 2002.

  1. VeryBadGirl

    VeryBadGirl Master Don Juan

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    TND's post about compatibility prompted me to post some more LTR advice for anyone who needs it.

    My first tips post... how exciting! my ideas be torn to shreds by many DJ's because I am a woman? Only time will tell...

    A Different Kind of Friendzone

    This is a post for all of your who are in a relationship that is moving toward a long-term relationship (LTR) or already in a LTR or marriage.

    We talk about the “friendzone” when you first meet someone – that non-sexual, brother/sister-like place where it is hard to move to dating or romance from. You don’t want to get into that because it is difficult to get out of.

    But, there is a different kind of friendzone that you want to be in once you move into a serious LTR, because it is the only way that LTR is going to remain happy and last.

    Some people have the idea that a relationship is going to be all flowers and dinners and romantic walks in the rain. Or passionate hot sex, steamy vacations and exciting dates.

    In reality, these things are not what a relationship is all about. Don’t get me wrong, you will have these things in a good relationship – and plenty of them.

    But, what makes up most of day to day of life, and hence most of a relationship, is the ordinary. Sleeping, waking up, getting dressed, paying the bills, taking out the trash, cooking dinner, sitting around the dinner table, talking, vacuuming, eating, etc.

    Now think about your friends – your best friends. The people that you know well and who are your allies, supporters, and sympathizers. You accept them for who they are, you would do almost anything for them and you derive pleasure from simply chilling with them.

    Because you love who they are, you enjoy talking to them and simply being with them. Since you find them interesting to just talk to and be with, you can spend an evening sitting around, drinking beer and playing cards and have a great time.

    This is what companionship is all about. To have this in a relationship, you have to be more than just "boyfriend and girlfriend" or lovers, you have to actually be friends. You have to be comfortable enough to lay around in sweatpants on a Sunday morning eating cereal in bed and enjoy doing it.

    Researchers who study couples and what makes or breaks them, say the best marriages harmonize. It is the constant reassurance, both verbal and in actions, that let their partner know that they are loved and accepted despite minor differences or minor problems.

    This is exactly how you treat a good friend if you want to be a good friend to them.

    When you are in a good LTR, a true friendship must be a central part of your relationship.

    Obviously, friendship cannot be the entire relationship, because then you would just be friends. But, it must be a primary component of how you and your partner relate to each other.

    In a good relationship, there should be thrills, romance, excitement, intellectual conversations, tingling sensations, crazy sex, wild passion and deep desire.

    These are things that should frequently flavor everyday life, but don’t define it.

    In the end, if you do not enjoy the simple mundane with your partner, the relationship is doomed to failure.
     
  2. The Big Bad Wolf

    The Big Bad Wolf Don Juan

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    Amen

    Well said VeryBadGirl.

    The Big Bad Wolf
     
  3. Take No Dirt

    Take No Dirt Master Don Juan

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    Good post, VeryBadGirl!

    You: In a good relationship, there should be thrills, romance, excitement, intellectual conversations, tingling sensations, crazy sex, wild passion and deep desire.

    Me: So very true. To make an LTR last, you need to maintain the mystery and challenge aspect of your DJ persona albeit you can ease up on it a bit, but not cut it off completely.

    Remember that mystery and challenge are keys to women. Their Interest Level in you will be maintained at that high level if you continue to be mysterious and unpredictable. You must continue to date her and give her affection and romance.

    Introduce some doubts into the LTR by instilling in her mind that you WILL walk out on her if she disrespects you. Keep her on her toes at all times.
     
  4. VeryBadGirl

    VeryBadGirl Master Don Juan

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    But, in a really good relationship, if you chose your mate wisely, there will be pretty much no chance that he/she will disrespect you.

    In my current relationship, the only challenges that exist are the challenges that we are going to face together in our future.

    And, the only mysteries that exist are where the future will lead us together.

    But, being unpredictable with romance and affection is very important. In my point of view, both the man and the woman in the relationship should try to surprise their partner romantically. Too often, it is left to the man to do this. When, really, both partners deserve this type of fun and love.

    Keep your partner on their toes with what kind of fun date you may plan next, but don't keep them wondering how you feel about them.

    In a good relationship, there are no doubts that this person will be there for you through thick and thin, supporting you and loving you.
     
  5. Freeheart

    Freeheart Don Juan

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    I totally agree, VeryBadGirl, with your original post and your follow-up. A person should hold standards and not put up with disrespect, like Take No Dirt said.

    But counting on somebody is what allows for intimacy. Not knowing what comes next, as VBG noted, is what makes things interesting, but not knowing that you're always number one just sets seeds for doubts. Those doubts germinate and become full-blown problems when the going gets really tough because of outside pressures. You don't want to set yourself up for this kind of a fall by being too cagey.
     
  6. Sir_Chancealot

    Sir_Chancealot Master Don Juan

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    Ah, the naivete of those who have never been married.......
     
  7. WildThang

    WildThang Master Don Juan

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    I'm with Chance on this one - to a point, anyway.

    The friends idea sounds great in theory, but the reality for a lot of people is that in fact, marriage drives them nuts. (And not in a good way. [​IMG] )

    Now, a lot of that is people marrying for really dumb reasons and expecting endless sex, or endless romance, or an endless honeymoon.

    But there's still the problem that even if you're really good friends, you *cannot* get married without having expectations about what the other person 'should' and 'shouldn't' be doing.

    And a lot of time they're not going to live up to the shoulds. They may even spend a lot of time doing some of your 'shouldn't' things.

    The point is that vowing to spend your time and all your money with even your very best friends is going to put a strain on any friendship. Now add kids to the equation and it gets even more intense.

    So yes - Maturity 101 suggests that if you're looking for an LTR, you're looking for the most relaxed and easy-going relationship you can find. And a strong friendship is a big part of that.

    But that's not all there is to it. Not by a long way. If you're smart you check out all the potential flashpoints - money, kids, careers, parents, exes, domestic tastes, daily sleep/wake cycle, anything else you can think of - in advance.

    A lot of marriages fail because people get carried away by their hormones and the promise of eternal romance, or they're just trying to escape from home, and they never even *think* about all those other issues.

    So being friends in some gooshy huggy way won't cut it when you're on the line together. You need to either:

    1. Be easy-going enough about the flashpoints that they don't matter.

    Or 2. Have very few flashpoints.

    Or 3. Be happy with some major aggravation as you deal with them together.

    Being friends will help with that, but there's still no guarantee that something from the list of flashpoints will reliably drive you nuts about each other. And *that's* when you're in trouble.
     
  8. Wyldfire

    Wyldfire Banned

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    and the cynicism of someone who has never truly had a good, healthy relationship...VBG is 100% right on this one.
     
  9. Wyldfire

    Wyldfire Banned

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    Wildthang...I agree about the flashpoint thing. Too many people rush into marriage without even truly knowing the other person. BAD MOVE! Compatibility comes into the mix. Before ANYONE should even consider getting married they should know exactly what they can and can't live with and should NOT stay with someone who triggers bad feelings in them. You have to be on the same page, same basic values, and both people need to be mature. All these things don't fall into place often, but when they do...you end up with a phenomenal relationship that really feels great to be in and endures even the most tremendous of outside roadblocks and barriers. Sounds like VBG is one of those few truly blessed ones who have found that kind of relationship. The only downside to having one is that if you lose that person in the way that I did, it's really difficult to accept anything less again. I'd rather spend my life alone than settle for something less than I know I can have.

    VBG...hang onto that guy and NEVER take what you have for granted.
     
  10. VeryBadGirl

    VeryBadGirl Master Don Juan

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    I agree. The formula is not friendship + romance = blissful relationship forever.

    You also have to be compatible - minimize the flash points. And, you have to know how to communicate - ie, deal with the flaspoints that remain.

    You definetly have to think about ALL those issues before you get married.

    And, if you get married for lust, out of fear, boredom or for money, (or any other horrible reason)you are most likely doomed from the start. Mainly, because you are an idiot.

    Time is pretty key in relationships. Spending time together in good times and in bad for a long time until you decide to get married.

    Nothing is gauranteed in life, but if you make smart choices, you have a better chance of it turning out well in the end.
     
  11. Atratus

    Atratus Don Juan

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    [Q]Introduce some doubts into the LTR by instilling in her mind that you WILL walk out on her if she disrespects you. Keep her on her toes at all times.[/Q]

    I agree with TND on this.

    Where does this need to have a 'good healthy relationship' come from? Why do you want absolute certainty about spending your future together? It is doubt, it is uncertainty, that drives you to naively run after such dreams. The IDEA of your 'good healthy relationship' can be nothing more than an IDEAL. You can TRY to live up to it.

    To deny the possibility that you might seperate is to try to make your relationship worthless. It can't be done, and you'll only be frustrated about why things aren't 'perfect'. What makes it valuable is how you challenge one another, how you appeal to the desire to overcome, to realize potential.

    Your ideal is to have a 'good healthy marriage'. When you get old, you might look back and decide it was good. But if you're so certain of this, why not entertain suspicions? You know it's not real, right?

    NuT! You DON'T know what's what or what's real or not. You just assume, and frankly, that's more than enough. And if you're confident, it's great fun too. Isn't that, after all, exactly what we all trip on? Mystery? Challenge? Not if we're insecure and unconfident we don't.

    When neither of you need the ease (=frustrations) of certainty of commitment, then you will know that you're in a 'good healthy relationship', or a natural relationship, as i prefer. Or a taoist relationship - an authentic relationship - a fellow creatorship - and both will yield a heart wield a whip to one other and the whole of life. Then you will find that you indeed one and but one certainty in life - despite everything, even despite spite and regret, death will be your wreath and crown.
     
  12. VeryBadGirl

    VeryBadGirl Master Don Juan

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  13. studmuffin15

    studmuffin15 Master Don Juan

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    i find it kind of ironic that a woman started this thread....in the large majority of my LTR's, when we had finally broken up, i always wanted to keep a "friendship" relationship based upon the close "friendship" that our ltr relationship was based on....

    however, it was always the girls who while admitting we did have a "friendship" during the relationship, they insisted that things had to be "all or nothing"...they could not have a relationship with me any longer if "love" and "romance" were not involved...

    what gives?????
     
  14. Atratus

    Atratus Don Juan

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    Ah, i believe we misunderstood one another, VeryBadGirl.

    It's very true a relationship can be good and healthy as opposed to bad and unhealthy.

    The way you spoke of it gave me the impression that it's a state of being you can attain and never leave, sort of like enlightment.

    Just a case of terminologitis. Nothing serious [​IMG]

    So now i'm wondering what makes a good relationship. Happiness, yes, but where does that come from? I won't answer that directly, but here you may find some useful thoughts.

    We usually strive for certainty through a process of constant reaffirmation of commitment.

    This doesn't mean you seek out temptations potential partners to cheat on and subsequently refuse to be tempted to affirm something; that's silly of course. It simply means considering the possibility of seperation, and, most importantly, how divorce might actually IMPROVE both your lives, socially or in any other way. Just don't tell me all your fantasies include your husband by default.
    In light of these alternatives, we can reaffirm our commitments.

    Why all that nonsense? Because it opens us to a wholly different kind of certainty - that of trust, of faith.
    Not the promise we make, that no matter what happens we will try to keep things the same forever.
    But certainty, knowing through experience, that both will thrive under constant change and challenge. We have pretty good hopes of thriving with every second of flux. Imagine the tragedy of divorcing with your lover for no reason at all. Don't just think that's absurd; imagine your husband or wife cutting off all contact and filing for divorce. Feel empty already? Let it make you feel sad, miserable, empty. But let beauty of the past and the potential the new life ahead make you grateful - just as grateful as when you were married.

    So where do we draw the line? There's an awful lot of trust involved; i could easily dupe another, sucking other dry and tossing them aside by using such words as these as an excuse. But doesn't this empower you, therefore expose me as well? And besides, am i not capable of that already? It's the ultimate form of interresponsibility and interdependency. Trust comes out to play for once.

    Drawing the line becomes arbitrary - not meaningless - just a nigh non-issue. You don't really need to draw lines, just a bit of sketching for practical purposes. When things go well, involvement and sensitivity drive out the need for certainty, especially verbal assurance. The lines become plain for both to see, even to cross. We just choose something beautiful and go for it. Preferably together.

    "Who of us two is better?" i asked. "You" she says. "That's not true and you know it, but you say it in spite/despite/nonetheless (dunno how to translate it from dutch). You would value me more than our wisdom?" I ask. "I can only really value you if i follow wisdom. Otherwise it'd just be fake. But you're asking a stupid question so i can say it's you anyway. I can say whatever i want."

    By now we can often use same words for different meanings, as words are but vessels that transmit a message. We've learnt to communicate the message forget about the words.

    Easy? No; we're constantly on our toes. But we know we can always take the time to rest, to drop all the experimental barriers, retreat out of the mental action game, sit down, relax, talk, etc. We know all our thoughts and feelings are real, we invite all of them in, including jealousy, annoyance with the minor differences, etc. They do no harm; our feelings and sensations are just communications, impulses that can be responded to properly. And if done so, only 'good' will come of it, such as more feelings to work with.

    Anyway these were some thoughts on the matter, but i'm finished now. I guess you said it better though, VeryBadGirl: if you're happy about it, it's ok.
     
  15. VeryBadGirl

    VeryBadGirl Master Don Juan

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    Atratus, I don't know if I am following your line of reasoning correctly. Perhaps since it seems that what you are talking about is not something that I have experienced in my life, and hence difficult to relate to. But, the saying "different strokes for different folks" probably applies well here.

    But, you asked what makes a good relationship, which is something that I have answered for myself, through my experiences. It may not apply to all, but I'll post it here anyway. Happiness is #1, of course. [​IMG]

    1) You are happy more than you are sad, angry or hurt.

    2) You have the amount of intimacy you need. You both must satisfy each other sexually plus have the right amount of tenderness, affection and warmth that you desire.

    3) You are able to talk to each other - about mundane things but also your problems. You can both express to each other how you feel. Plus you listen to each other and try to understand what/how the other person is feeling.

    4) You are intellectually stimulating to each other. You have interesting conversations and/or debates.

    5) You have FUN together. Laughing is essential.

    6) You have common goals and desires for the future and you work together to achieve these goals.

    7) You both recognize that you both make mistakes and are willing to admit to them, forgive and move on.

    8) You recognize that your partner has flaws and you are willing to tolerate those flaws.

    9) You trust each other. You have confidence that you can depend on each other no matter what.

    10) You respect each other. You are willing to see the other person as a separate individual with rights/desires/needs/wants.

    All of these contribute to the friendship which I spoke of in my first post.

    To answer your question, studmuffin, there are a few things that could happen at the end of a relationship that would prohibit the friendship from going on:

    a) while falling out of love, you also lost part of your friendship.
    b) the friendship and the romance were so entangled (as they should be) that it is hard to separate the two.
    c) the need to move on and get over someone necessitates distance and no contact. It is hard to keep a friendship going when you don't talk.
    d) also, if there is still romantic or sexual feelings there, it is not going to be a real friendship.

    But, in some situations, a friendship can continue after a period of time or in certain situations.


    [This message has been edited by VeryBadGirl (edited 05-24-2002).]
     
  16. Maximus

    Maximus Don Juan

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    Once again, I am humbled by your words Aratus. Let us converse.

    Some would say that using the word "try" is lazy. You have no goal. If your goal is ideal, you will NEVER be happy because ideal DOES NOT exist. (Even "ballpark ideal" is difficult to attain.)

    TRYING for an ideal though.... THAT is something to STRIVE for.

    Maybe not worthless, but certainly safe and naive where no GROWTH occurs.

    The woman I have interest in right now is unique. One night, I took a gamble (no need to elaborate) and she invited me out to a place with the most amazing band and I had one of the best nights of my life.

    But here is something I have never done before. I still have no clue if we are "dating" per say, but I said to myself that night...

    "If nothing comes from this chance time together, I will forever remember this night and look for the same level of euphoria in the future."

    I actually resolved to set an attitude of having fun KNOWING that it could all end tomorrow. That she could have been playing me for a chump the whole time or simply had no interest in me. Whatever happens, I will be a better person because of her.

    This approach I find is a lot less work than constantly trying to figure out how to be mysterious and a challenge all the damn time. I think any woman who responds to that stuff over a long period of time is TOO MUCH work. I BELIEVE there is someone out there who will like me for who I am, not what I appear to be.

    Don't get me wrong. I have actually used a few DJ approaches with this woman in the first 2 months. I think it is CRUCIAL to follow some of the DJ Bible's advice (depending on the woman) in the very beginning. After that though, I think your just putting on a facade and it will begin to fade. It might take a year, maybe ten, but you will screw up. Eventually you have to be yourself. I know many argue against this tactic but I would rather a woman see me for who I am AND accept me than go "ga ga" for someone whose true colours she may not be pleased to discover at the "7-year itch" point.

    My goal is not to maintain challenge or continue to be a mystery. My goal to find a woman I CHOOSE to have FUN with who continues to CHOOSE to have FUN with me.

    This is the ROOT of a healthy relationship.

    assume – v. 1. take as true. 2. take or put upon oneself. 3. simulate
    (1. believe, fancy, imagine, presume, suppose, take it for granted, think 2. accept, take on, undertake 3. affect, fake, feign, pretend simulate.)


    One might say you have made an ass out of you and me.

    True I think but ONLY IF you assume the worst, the negative, the stereotype.

    If you assume the best, the possible, the potential, the good, the dream, what is wrong with that? As long as you DO NOT DELUDE yourself, what is the harm in assuming?

    Self-fulfilling prophecy I think is the term.

    What you want is what you get.

    Mystery?

    Challenge?

    This comes naturally ONCE you ACCEPT that NOTHING you do will keep a woman at your side. She has to CHOOSE to be there. She has to CHOOSE every time you ask her out. Knowing what you want and ASSUMING you have what she wants is probably the most mysterious and challenging thing one can do. It’s also the MOST CONFIDANT. There is no concrete or absolutes with an assumption. Only unknowns and surprises, both good and bad, and the FAITH that she wants what you want – to find a good man to have fun with.

    Life really is one big assumption I think. This just occurred to me now. You can assume you deserve real happiness or you can assume you will have to fake it to fool yourself into being happy. How can one look at there life and say for a CERTAINTY they are happy. I think we all just assume it at one point and believe it to be true.

    I am going to assume this woman wants someone like me.

    I assume I have what it takes to get her.

    I assume this post made some sense.

    :)

    Maximus


    ------------------
    The Way of The
    Simpleton - A
    simpleton: lays down
    no first law, takes
    everything that
    happens as it comes.
    The simplicity of the
    truly sophisticated.

    ---- Bruce Lee

    [This message has been edited by Maximus (edited 05-25-2002).]
     
  17. Maximus

    Maximus Don Juan

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    All good points VBG that strike to the heart of a healthy LTR. The first for me is probably the most important out of all of them.

    I am because you are.

    I am HAPPY because you are HAPPY.

    I TRUST you because you TRUST me.

    I RESPECT you because you RESPECT me.

    I LOVE you because you LOVE me.

    Assume all the above, how can any relationship ever go wrong? And if it does, you learn and move on.

    Excellent post VBG. Thanks for articulating what I have been looking for my whole life.

    Friends before lovers.

    Be a friend to her who is NOT interested in JUST friendship.

    Maximus


    [This message has been edited by Maximus (edited 05-25-2002).]
     
  18. Freeheart

    Freeheart Don Juan

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    I enjoyed your post, Maximus. Your approach is the same one I have, only without so many assumptions.

    I go out with the idea that the date I'm on may be the last one with the particular guy, for reasons beyond my control. So I live it up and have fun like it's over tomorrow -- no regrets, no holding back. I never assume the guy will want to ask me out again, tho. I assume that, for whatever reason, he won't have a chance to, so let's make this the most fun possible while we're here together. It's a very pleasant surprise when he does call again and wants more of my company.

    That sure doesn't mean I'm easy, tho. There are some experiences that can only be fully appreciated when enough magic is conjured to make them special. And that takes time.

    I think the word for this attitude is called existentialist.
     
  19. VeryBadGirl

    VeryBadGirl Master Don Juan

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    That seems like a good way to go about it, Freeheart.
     
  20. dorian_gray-from.usa

    dorian_gray-from.usa Senior Don Juan

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