Trayvon Martin discussion

[metoo]

Cops and prosecutors ordinarily can't wait to lock up a shooter, and they have yet to do so, despite a LOT of pressure, so the authorities don't think that there's a case that they can make against Zimmerman. If I was him and they folded to pressure, especially if i won the criminal case, I'd sue the butt off of anyone who applied pressure or folded under it.

[metoo]

if you AINT debating the Martin case, then why don't you start your own damned thread and stop hijacking this one, hmm?

[Bible_Belt]

If Zimmerman sued for being arrested, the only way he could do it and win money would be...drum roll please...a civil rights violation. Unless he could prove that he was singled out for arrest due to being hispanic, there is no right of recovery. Caving to media pressure is nothing that the police can be sued over, unless it happens to the accused because of their status as a Constitutionally protected minority.

A lot more people think they can sue the police and win than actually would ever have a chance. Under most circumstances, the government is immune from suit due to the Immunity of the Sovereign principle. When we see lawsuits against the government, they have to occur under a Federal Statute, where Congress has basically said that if the government has fvcked up badly enough in a specific way, they deserve to have to pay. The Civil Rights Act is one such piece of legislation, but it takes a "gross violation" of your civil rights, which courts have typically decided to be nothing less than the cops beating the crap out of you like they did to Rodney King.

[Danger]

Originally Posted by metoo

if you AINT debating the Martin case, then why don't you start your own damned thread and stop hijacking this one, hmm?

So responding to a previous comment means I am hijacking?

Perhaps you should work on your logic skills, hmmm?

Or better yet, post more drivel on the coming cannibalism and the end of the world like you are in the silver thread. Or post some more about the 3rd world wh0res you plan on marrying since western women won't take you.

[Jaylan]

Originally Posted by Danger

It doesn't matter who brought it up, I still have a right to put my two cents into that discussion without you going all nazi saying only talk about the trayvon case.

For the millionth time, I am NOT DEBATING THE TRAYVON CASE. Get that through your head.[/size]

You mentioned the vicious circle and the "chicken egg" sceneario of trust between the black community and the police. I am pointing out what the black community needs to do if they want to build credibility with police and everyone else. Starting with giving sharpton the boot or finding someone who is not a hypocrite. And finishing with holding all of the "bad eggs" in the community responsible, even outside of the police. That sort of stuff starts with not letting people go see basketball games right after a ten day suspension from school.

I mean for god's sake, if the community can't work with police, wtf do you think is going to happen? And if you don't trust the police, then you can still work on improving the marketing by dumping the likes of Sharpton.

When the police stop killing unarmed black men and when the police start investigating the killings of unarmed black men properly, then maybe the black community will start trusting them. Until then, nothings gonna change.

Especially with stupid stop and frisk policies in NYC that allow racial profiling. And especially when crap like this happens.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...n_1016170.html

The police are the ones with power and should be the ones aiming to work with the people they are paid to serve and protect. This has been going on for generations and now people like you want to flip the blame on the black community? If the police werent commitment injustices and discriminating against people to begin with, then everyone in general would trust the police. When the police are ready to work with the black community, and can show they wont racially profile anyone, then we can all move forward.

And again...letting a kid watch a basketball game at home has nothing to do with your argument. You have no idea if he served a punishment or not....so please stop wildly speculating. And for the last time, Sharpton wouldnt need to open his mouth to bring publicity to a case if the police hadnt flubbed and then tried to sweep things under the rug. So how about you look at the Sanford PD for some answers in this case, because Trayvon was minding his own damn business the night he was killed.

Your argument doesnt acknowledge both sides....theres blame to go to both sides, but one has to really look at who started the cycle. If kids go crazy and shoot people at school, they are wrong...but so are the kids who bullied them for years and pushed them to the edge...and so are the parents, teachers, and administrators who failed to stop it. If I was a camp counselor...and treat some of the kids unfairly, and favored a few other kids...if some of the kids dont trust me...whos fault is that? hmmm...always go back to the source...its not a one way blame game though.

Originally Posted by Who Dares Win

I was unaware of those tactics but thanks for showing them in most of your post in this thread.
Is there a forth one where you can use an item while others are forbidden to, like the case of you and danger?

Willful ignorance....lolz.

Its pointless speaking to you. Enjoy your day

[Danger]

Originally Posted by Jaylan

When the police stop killing unarmed black men and when the police start investigating the killings of unarmed black men properly, then maybe the black community will start trusting them. Until then, nothings gonna change.

Especially with stupid stop and frisk policies in NYC that allow racial profiling. And especially when crap like this happens.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...n_1016170.html

The police are the ones with power and should be the ones aiming to work with the people they are paid to serve and protect. This has been going on for generations and now people like you want to flip the blame on the black community? If the police werent commitment injustices and discriminating against people to begin with, then everyone in general would trust the police. When the police are ready to work with the black community, and can show they wont racially profile anyone, then we can all move forward.

And again...letting a kid watch a basketball game at home has nothing to do with your argument. You have no idea if he served a punishment or not....so please stop wildly speculating. And for the last time, Sharpton wouldnt need to open his mouth to bring publicity to a case if the police hadnt flubbed and then tried to sweep things under the rug. So how about you look at the Sanford PD for some answers in this case, because Trayvon was minding his own damn business the night he was killed.

Your argument doesnt acknowledge both sides....theres blame to go to both sides, but one has to really look at who started the cycle. If kids go crazy and shoot people at school, they are wrong...but so are the kids who bullied them for years and pushed them to the edge...and so are the parents, teachers, and administrators who failed to stop it. If I was a camp counselor...and treat some of the kids unfairly, and favored a few other kids...if some of the kids dont trust me...whos fault is that? hmmm...always go back to the source...its not a one way blame game though.

Well of course, it's not a one way blame game, but the process needs to start somewhere. I am just saying that the removal of Sharpton and the addition of someone who had the class of King would go a LONG ways towards helping your cause. The community can either acknowledge that or just keep making the same mistakes.

No points are gained with police or society at large as long as the community leaders are hypocrites. Nor are they gained when the false accusations fly, and there are plenty of those as well. This is exactly why the community needs to get tough on the urban troublemakers. By removing them from the community, or working with police to remove them, it helps both sides.

We have yet to see whether the Sanford PD made a mistake, but WE KNOW that Sharpton made mistakes and never apologized. That HURTS the credibility of the community. There is no ignoring that. Would King have ever done that? He had class, so I would have to say no. The community needs a leader, and Sharpton is a very poor one.

Maybe Trayvon was punished, although I highly doubt it as I never heard of a kid being allowed to go out after a ten day suspension from school.

Regarding the police, on the other hand, the community also has to hold people responsible for false accusations of profiling, such as Tyler Perry the other day in Georgia. It is as damaging to the community as a false rape accusation is to women. It destroys credibility.

It takes two hands to shake, both have to extend an arm. Wouldn't you agree?

[Jaylan]

Originally Posted by Danger

Well of course, it's not a one way blame game, but the process needs to start somewhere. I am just saying that the removal of Sharpton and the addition of someone who had the class of King would go a LONG ways towards helping your cause. The community can either acknowledge that or just keep making the same mistakes.

Look, I get your point about Sharpton...but youre acting as if black people are one collective voice and community. We are not. The same way white people arent one unit. We have sub groups just like you all have. We include African Americans, Caribbean Americans, Afro-Latinos, African immigrants, and even more groups. So we all have different opinions about "black" issues. Generally Al Sharpton speaks for African American issues, but blacks do find a common identity when some things happen in America, like this Trayvon Martin case.

Again, we dont all agree about Sharpton...despite his past mistakes, many people acknowledge the good purpose he serves in the community. He brings attention to issues that need fixing...and without people like him, I doubt Martins parents would be getting any answers about their son. I also doubt theyd have ever heard those 911 tapes. If racial injustice was not still a very present reality, Al Sharpton wouldnt be the prominent figure he is. Realize the society he grew up in, a racially prejudiced society, created him.

We have yet to see whether the Sanford PD made a mistake, but WE KNOW that Sharpton made mistakes and never apologized. That HURTS the credibility of the community. There is no ignoring that. Would King have ever done that? He had class, so I would have to say no. The community needs a leader, and Sharpton is a very poor one.

Have yet to see where they made a mistake? Are you serious? The feds are beginning to investigate the Sanford PD for failing to conduct a proper investigation. So if the US Attorney General can see that mistakes were made, why cant you? The feds went to Zimmermans gated community and asked all the neighbors questions...so lets be real here please.

So YES, we do know the Sanford PD made mistakes. And we know that PDs make mistakes all the time that they never apologize for. So how about you criticize them as well and not focus solely on Sharpton.

And if you want to keep at it with the blame game...lets call Spike Lee an idiot for what he did. But then lets also throw some blame at that disgrace who is Michelle Malkin. Posting fake pictures of Martin on her website. Pictures that originated on Stormfront...a well known Neonazi white nationalist forum. She had pictures up of some kid with sagged pants, boxers showing, and flipping off a camera...pictures her website said were Trayvon Martin. Those pics spread like wildfire online and then people felt stupid when they found out they were the wrong kid and found out where they came from.

Maybe Trayvon was punished, although I highly doubt it as I never heard of a kid being allowed to go out after a ten day suspension from school.

Go out where? He simply walked to the store. He wasnt hanging out anywhere. He went to the store and went home. I knew PLENTY of kids growing up who were allowed to walk to the store while they were grounded. They were allowed to go there and come back, thats it.

They were also given a treat to watch tv if they behaved well during their punishment. Again, we dont know if he was punished, or the details of his punishment arrangement.

Regarding the police, on the other hand, the community also has to hold people responsible for false accusations of profiling, such as Tyler Perry the other day in Georgia. It is as damaging to the community as a false rape accusation is to women. It destroys credibility.

Again, you assume all black people think alike. Some people admonish him, and some people dont. Blacks are not some unified power structure who can compel all of its citizens to think alike. It doesnt work like that. Some people will admonish certain people, and others will understand their viewpoints and stick up for them.

If people in the NAACP are speaking out against some of Sharptons tactics....then maybe you need to reformulate your argument, because something IS being said. But you cannot expect a group of people who are not collectively in power in this country, and who dont all think the same, to simply say all the same things about a few people.

What you are doing would be just as silly if a minority of any race ran around telling white people to only be democrats and progressives, as if white people had a collective consciousness.

It takes two hands to shake, both have to extend an arm. Wouldn't you agree?

And when the police stop killing unarmed minorities, that hand will extend. You cant expect a group of people who have been profiled and discriminated against for as long as they remember, to simply extend their hand. You act as if these various groups of people havent been trying to do this for the longest. And every time they do, the people in power yet again do something stupid.

Think of it like this...gay people want equal rights...they want marriage, and they want many Americans to stop being prejudiced against them. We cannot deny this prejudice exists because we see homophobic ignorance on this very forum in several recent threads, and we also had that whole Prop 8 issue in California.

Now when stuff like this is going on, you think simply telling gay people to extend their hand is enough? Especially when many people on the other side refuse to extend their hand? And many people still see them as abnormal and immoral....and many people see pride parades as destructive when they arent in the least.

So what I feel needs to be done, is those in power need to take the right steps to make sure people in their camp abide by whatever "truces" get made. Those in power have the biggest sway on a situation...way more than any marginalized group ever will. No not everyone will fall in line, because as I said before, not every cop is of one collective consciousness., but the PDs of America have a lot of power in conjunction with the courts, to make sure people do their job the way they are supposed to.

[Danger]

Originally Posted by Jaylan

Look, I get your point about Sharpton...but youre acting as if black people are one collective voice and community. We are not. The same way white people arent one unit. We have sub groups just like you all have. We include African Americans, Caribbean Americans, Afro-Latinos, African immigrants, and even more groups. So we all have different opinions about "black" issues. Generally Al Sharpton speaks for African American issues, but blacks do find a common identity when some things happen in America, like this Trayvon Martin case.

Of course you have a collective voice. That is what Sharpton is. You call him and demand he apologize when he's wrong or you fully withdraw support. It is that simple.

Originally Posted by Jaylan

Again, we dont all agree about Sharpton...despite his past mistakes, many people acknowledge the good purpose he serves in the community. He brings attention to issues that need fixing...and without people like him, I doubt Martins parents would be getting any answers about their son. I also doubt theyd have ever heard those 911 tapes. If racial injustice was not still a very present reality, Al Sharpton wouldnt be the prominent figure he is. Realize the society he grew up in, a racially prejudiced society, created him.
Have yet to see where they made a mistake? Are you serious? The feds are beginning to investigate the Sanford PD for failing to conduct a proper investigation. So if the US Attorney General can see that mistakes were made, why cant you? The feds went to Zimmermans gated community and asked all the neighbors questions...so lets be real here please.

So YES, we do know the Sanford PD made mistakes. And we know that PDs make mistakes all the time that they never apologize for. So how about you criticize them as well and not focus solely on Sharpton.

Until the investigation is finished, we do not know if anything was wrong. This is where you (and I originally) have prejudged everything despite the preponderance of false stories through-out the media. The media has a lot to be held accountable for here as well. During this whole thing they have been a huge problem using sensationalism and manipulation to provoke the angriest response from people.

Originally Posted by Jaylan

And if you want to keep at it with the blame game...lets call Spike Lee an idiot for what he did. But then lets also throw some blame at that disgrace who is Michelle Malkin. Posting fake pictures of Martin on her website. Pictures that originated on Stormfront...a well known Neonazi white nationalist forum. She had pictures up of some kid with sagged pants, boxers showing, and flipping off a camera...pictures her website said were Trayvon Martin. Those pics spread like wildfire online and then people felt stupid when they found out they were the wrong kid and found out where they came from.

Sure, those guys are equally part of the "blame game" and to be perfectly honest, they deserve criminal punishment in my opinion. I am not involved in a blame game but instead am trying to point out the problems that the black community needs to overcome, and that ONLY THEY can do. You can either recognize the problem, fix it and grow, or you can always point the finger at the other guy and never change.

Originally Posted by Jaylan

Go out where? He simply walked to the store. He wasnt hanging out anywhere. He went to the store and went home. I knew PLENTY of kids growing up who were allowed to walk to the store while they were grounded. They were allowed to go there and come back, thats it.

They were also given a treat to watch tv if they behaved well during their punishment. Again, we dont know if he was punished, or the details of his punishment arrangement.

Wasn't he walking back from watching a basketball game? And I know NOBODY who would be allowed to do that after a one day suspension, let alone ten. We are not talking a punishment for talking back or something, we are talking a two week suspension. I am honestly shocked that you or anyone would think this is ok or normal treatment for someone being punished for a suspension like that.

Originally Posted by Jaylan

Again, you assume all black people think alike. Some people admonish him, and some people dont. Blacks are not some unified power structure who can compel all of its citizens to think alike. It doesnt work like that. Some people will admonish certain people, and others will understand their viewpoints and stick up for them.

I don't assume that, I know that there is not enough solidarity to make the likes of Sharpton cut the bull$hit and restore credibility to complaints regarding racial issues.

Originally Posted by Jaylan

If people in the NAACP are speaking out against some of Sharptons tactics....then maybe you need to reformulate your argument, because something IS being said. But you cannot expect a group of people who are not collectively in power in this country, and who dont all think the same, to simply say all the same things about a few people.

Sure you can expect that. You don't need to be collectively in power to accomplish the feat of restoring credibility, they just need to stop feeding the Sharpton troll. It's great that some are taking them to task, but unfortunately it is not enough.

Originally Posted by Jaylan

What you are doing would be just as silly if a minority of any race ran around telling white people to only be democrats and progressives, as if white people had a collective consciousness.

We don't have a publicized white group inciting racial wars whenever a white person gets shot by a black person. Hell a lot of that barely makes the news, including the recent one that happened only a few days ago (where the black guy was not arrested I might add).

Originally Posted by Jaylan

And when the police stop killing unarmed minorities, that hand will extend. You cant expect a group of people who have been profiled and discriminated against for as long as they remember, to simply extend their hand. You act as if these various groups of people havent been trying to do this for the longest. And every time they do, the people in power yet again do something stupid.

Police kill unarmed whites too, it happens all of the time. Blacks aren't the only one's discriminated against. Whites are too all of the time, in fact, it's the law to discriminate against them.

Originally Posted by Jaylan

Think of it like this...gay people want equal rights...they want marriage, and they want many Americans to stop being prejudiced against them. We cannot deny this prejudice exists because we see homophobic ignorance on this very forum in several recent threads, and we also had that whole Prop 8 issue in California.

Sure, I don't deny that gays want equal rights, and that they don't get them as far as "marriage" is concerned.

Originally Posted by Jaylan

Now when stuff like this is going on, you think simply telling gay people to extend their hand is enough? Especially when many people on the other side refuse to extend their hand? And many people still see them as abnormal and immoral....and many people see pride parades as destructive when they arent in the least.

So what I feel needs to be done, is those in power need to take the right steps to make sure people in their camp abide by whatever "truces" get made. Those in power have the biggest sway on a situation...way more than any marginalized group ever will. No not everyone will fall in line, because as I said before, not every cop is of one collective consciousness., but the PDs of America have a lot of power in conjunction with the courts, to make sure people do their job the way they are supposed to.

Sure, I absolutely agree with that. And bad officers need to be held accountable, especially by their own peers and the people in power. But that alone will not solve the problem of urban violence or the lack of credibility that is ever present due to people like Sharpton.

Bottom line, action is required by both sides. But if either side acts like a girl with the "I'm not going to do anything until they do it first", then everyone may as well go home, because it will never end.

[Jaylan]

This will be my last reply to this topic, because its derailing the thread entirely away from the original discussion. PM me if you wish to continue our conversation. Or even start another thread, but as of now, it makes no sense to have an off topic debate that goes in circles.

Originally Posted by Danger

Of course you have a collective voice. That is what Sharpton is. You call him and demand he apologize when he's wrong or you fully withdraw support. It is that simple.

No we do not have a collective voice. Why do you think many different political representatives exist in America? Why do you think sub divisions exist in political parties? Because people think different things. There are more black leaders than Al Sharpton. He just happens to be the one that the media loves to pander to the most.

Im sure if the media decided to follow another black figure, that person would become popular in an instant. But of course they wont do that. Plenty of black people have called out Al Sharpton, but he has supporters. Plenty of public figures have supporters and nay sayers. So please dont be ignorant and act like an entire group of people have to admonish one person just to be taken seriously as a group.

Just because some white people are silly tea partiers, does not mean Im going to criticize the entire white community for not standing up against the tea party and the things I dont like about it. Im not ignorant enough to assume a diverse group of people have a singular voice. Dont be that ignorant yourself.

Until the investigation is finished, we do not know if anything was wrong. This is where you (and I originally) have prejudged everything despite the preponderance of false stories through-out the media. The media has a lot to be held accountable for here as well. During this whole thing they have been a huge problem using sensationalism and manipulation to provoke the angriest response from people.

We do know the PD did something wrong. Have you followed the news at all? Legal analysts, various other PDs and even the Florida State DA herself said the Sanford police made mistakes. So please stop pretending they did nothing wrong. Pay attention to those facts. They botched the investigation and didnt do some routine things they were supposed to do. End of story. Dont try and flip and turn focus on the media...right now in this section Im talking about how the Sanford PD screwed up.

If the feds acknowledge this, then so should you. The fact that they launched an investigation to begin with adds to my point.

Sure, those guys are equally part of the "blame game" and to be perfectly honest, they deserve criminal punishment in my opinion. I am not involved in a blame game but instead am trying to point out the problems that the black community needs to overcome, and that ONLY THEY can do. You can either recognize the problem, fix it and grow, or you can always point the finger at the other guy and never change.

The black community will overcome its problems in time...but you said we need to extend a hand. We cannot extend a hand when those in power keep killing innocent and unarmed people. We cannot extend a hand when those in power setup and falsely accuse innocent people. It has to start with those in power. When the people can see those in power are trying to work with them, then perceptions will change all around.

Dont be a hypocrite and talk about who does finger pointing, when thats what youve been doing here. It starts at the top. It started at the top years and years ago and has been allowed to continue. As I said, things cant get better until those who are supposed to protect and serve, actually protect and serve wholeheartedly.

You cant play the singular blame game when people like Michelle Malkin are trying to paint this dead kid as a thug, when he was an honor roll athlete who committed no proven crime the night of his killing. When national media outlets for the right are circulating fake pictures from a Neonazi website, which only perpetuate negative stereotypes against black people, things cant get better. So how about you look at both sides of the coin, because I know what needs to be done here.

Wasn't he walking back from watching a basketball game? And I know NOBODY who would be allowed to do that after a one day suspension, let alone ten. We are not talking a punishment for talking back or something, we are talking a two week suspension. I am honestly shocked that you or anyone would think this is ok or normal treatment for someone being punished for a suspension like that.

OMG READ THE FACTS OF THE STORY.

Trayvon was visiting his fathers house, and was watching the NBA All Star game with his little brother. At half time he decided to go to the store for snacks. He walked there and then was walking home when Zimmerman started this whole mess. Those are the facts.

You mean to tell me you didnt know any kids who were allowed to walk to the store when they were grounded? Because Im sure MANY people here know plenty of kids like that. This kid wasnt out hanging out in the street with people. He went the store and then tried to get back home in time for the rest of the game. Why am I even discussing this with you when you dont even have the facts straight?

And plenty of kids are allowed to watch tv even if they are grounded. They just wont be allowed to hang out with friends. And like I said before, its entirely possible that his dad let him watch the game with his little brother because its a once a year event, and why punish the little brother as well if he wants to watch the game AT HOME with his big bro. Its also possible that Trayvon was given the gift to watch tv for being on good behavior. When I used to get punished, if I was on good behavior and finished extra chores over a set period of time, Id be allowed an hour of tv or video games.

None of what I said is uncommon or way out there. Next time get your facts straight on the case. Either way, we should both stop jumping to conclusions about his punishment.

I don't assume that, I know that there is not enough solidarity to make the likes of Sharpton cut the bull$hit and restore credibility to complaints regarding racial issues.

Finally you get what I am saying. Public figures have supporters and naysayers. Doesnt matter who they are. You cant expect a whole group of people to rally behind a person or rally against a person.

However, if people in this country let the antics of Shaprton affect the reality of racial prejudice as whole...then such people are truly ignorant and blind. Just because Sharpton has goofed in the past does not negate the times he hasnt goofed. And his goofs do not negate the reality that America still has plenty of prejudice going on...be it racial, gender, sexual orientation, or religious prejudice.

Sure you can expect that. You don't need to be collectively in power to accomplish the feat of restoring credibility, they just need to stop feeding the Sharpton troll. It's great that some are taking them to task, but unfortunately it is not enough

Sharpton or no Sharpton, people in this country would question the credibility of racial prejudice complaints. This was happening before Sharpton and will happen after Sharpton lives his life. Denying racism has become the new racism in this country. Ignorance, willful or not, is what allows all forms of hate to continue in this country. And when some people have dismissive attitudes about what they themselves dont experience first hand, it only makes things worse.

Im apart of a majority group myself. Its a privileged group as well. I am a straight male. And I would have it no other way. Straight men have it a lot better in many areas of life than women or gays do. I wont deny this. I also wont dismiss a woman or gay dude's feelings of prejudice if he/she ever told me some of their experiences. I havent lived their life and itd be arrogant of me to argue with their feelings.

We don't have a publicized white group inciting racial wars whenever a white person gets shot by a black person. Hell a lot of that barely makes the news, including the recent one that happened only a few days ago (where the black guy was not arrested I might add).

No publicized white group? Whats the KKK then? What about the white nationalist groups that have descended upon Florida looking to stir the pot since the Martin case happened. Do your research.

The only ones trying to start a race war are the racist like the KKK or the new Panthers. Guys like Al Sharpton are simply telling black folks to stick together and protect their children. They arent telling them to harm anyone or start wars. Please show me quotes of the major leaders of the black community proclaiming "fighting words". The last major black leader to do that was Malcolm X. But he eventually saw the light and saw that violence wasnt the answer.

It seems you are merely threatened by black solidarity. If you can find me quotes that truly are trying to start a race war, Ill change my view of you.

Also, plenty of black folks get shot or killed by white people, usually police officers, and it barely or not make the news. The only times these stories make the news is when there is some form of profiling or racism that is obvious in those cases.

[Jaylan]

Police kill unarmed whites too, it happens all of the time. Blacks aren't the only one's discriminated against. Whites are too all of the time, in fact, it's the law to discriminate against them.

lolol...the old "it happens to white people too" argument. Sure the same bad stuff happens to white people but not at nearly the same rates. Not at all. Go back and read Rubutos post. The same stuff that happens in the courts with the rate of white conviction being lower, happens on the street with cops. Whites are much, much less likely to be pulled over, stopped and frisked, or any of the sort without reasonable suspicion.

Sure, I don't deny that gays want equal rights, and that they don't get them as far as "marriage" is concerned.

I was simply making a comparison to another marginalized group when I brought up gays.

Sure, I absolutely agree with that. And bad officers need to be held accountable, especially by their own peers and the people in power. But that alone will not solve the problem of urban violence or the lack of credibility that is ever present due to people like Sharpton.

But the problem is many times bad officers are not held accountable. Sean Bell, Johnny Gammage, DJ Henry, Amadou Diallo. All unarmed young black men shot and killed with no one seeing any jail time whatsoever. So many times people arent being held accountable. Just because the cities pay out civil settlements to the families does not mean anyone was held accountable either. Especially when those officers are still allowed to wear a badge.

Do you understand why Al Sharpton comes to rally black people together in those cases? Do you understand why he speaks out? Because all his life hes seen young black people be killed and no one face any consequences for those actions. So for all his goofs, I commend him to fighting for a good cause. I recognize the purpose he serves even though I dont agree with everything he says or does.

Bottom line, action is required by both sides. But if either side acts like a girl with the "I'm not going to do anything until they do it first", then everyone may as well go home, because it will never end.

Again, it starts at the top. Those with the power are able to compel their peers and subordinates to do whats right. Those is power control the PD and the courts. Black people dont control that. So when the power structure extends its hand, and shows the black community things will truly change once and for all, the black community will extend its hand amicably as well.

You act as if the black community doesnt want to see change. The black community has been desperately fighting for change for generations. The community is sick of seeing tragedies happen to its young people.

[Who Dares Win]

Originally Posted by Jaylan

This will be my last reply to this topic

Originally Posted by Jaylan

Willful ignorance....lolz.

Its pointless speaking to you. Enjoy your day

This is what you answer to other users when they say something you dont like or realize doesnt work for you.
Maybe you should add this trick to the list you made before?

Anyway I take an other user post to reply to you in here:

Originally Posted by disgustipated

Don't be one of those people when challenged says I'm done here and avoids all types of challenging conversation. It's okay to be wrong, it's okay to admit you're wrong(I'm not saying you are) but if someone sways you off of an original conviction you had, you don't need to go ghost and abandon any other points you might have wanted to discuss....it doesn't make them any less valid.

^^^^ This post fits perfectly also in this thread in your case

[Jaylan]

^Whatever you say bucko cool story

[Danger]

Originally Posted by Jaylan

No we do not have a collective voice. Why do you think many different political representatives exist in America? Why do you think sub divisions exist in political parties?

Considering that a very large number of the community follow the likes of Sharpton, he is the collective voice. That is the whole point. HE is you marketing campaign....fed by the MSM AND those in the community (a very large number) that follow his lead.

SO yes, you do have a collective voice. The person you choose to endorse and follow regarding race relations is embodied in that collective voice. Sharpton being one of them.

Originally Posted by Jaylan

Im sure if the media decided to follow another black figure, that person would become popular in an instant. But of course they wont do that. Plenty of black people have called out Al Sharpton, but he has supporters.

He has many supporters DESPITE his race baiting and hypocrisy. Hell, even in this thread you support him, regardless of the credibility destruction he rains down upon the community.

Originally Posted by Jaylan

Just because some white people are silly tea partiers, does not mean Im going to criticize the entire white community for not standing up against the tea party and the things I dont like about it. Im not ignorant enough to assume a diverse group of people have a singular voice. Dont be that ignorant yourself.

The tea party is racially diverse, so it would be pointless anyways and the tea parties are not race baiting.

Originally Posted by Jaylan

We do know the PD did something wrong. Have you followed the news at all? Legal analysts, various other PDs and even the Florida State DA herself said the Sanford police made mistakes. So please stop pretending they did nothing wrong. Pay attention to those facts. They botched the investigation and didnt do some routine things they were supposed to do. End of story. Dont try and flip and turn focus on the media...right now in this section Im talking about how the Sanford PD screwed up.

I know exactly what you are talking about, and I have not read anything on that subject. I have not seen it in any of the news events. Not even from race-baiting NBC.

Originally Posted by Jaylan

If the feds acknowledge this, then so should you. The fact that they launched an investigation to begin with adds to my point.
The black community will overcome its problems in time...but you said we need to extend a hand. We cannot extend a hand when those in power keep killing innocent and unarmed people. We cannot extend a hand when those in power setup and falsely accuse innocent people. It has to start with those in power. When the people can see those in power are trying to work with them, then perceptions will change all around.

So you believe the Feds but not the police? Or only on this particular subject? The reason the Feds are on it is due to Holder and his racism. I don't see the feds all over the case with white guy that got shot by the black man outside of burger king, and he wasn't arrested either.

Originally Posted by Jaylan

Dont be a hypocrite and talk about who does finger pointing, when thats what youve been doing here. It starts at the top. It started at the top years and years ago and has been allowed to continue. As I said, things cant get better until those who are supposed to protect and serve, actually protect and serve wholeheartedly.

I'm not pointing fingers, you are just overly sensitive to the fact that the community is not innocent and they have to own part of the problem as well. For some reason you seem incapable of that.

Originally Posted by Jaylan

You cant play the singular blame game when people like Michelle Malkin are trying to paint this dead kid as a thug, when he was an honor roll athlete who committed no proven crime the night of his killing. When national media outlets for the right are circulating fake pictures from a Neonazi website, which only perpetuate negative stereotypes against black people, things cant get better. So how about you look at both sides of the coin, because I know what needs to be done here.

I already agreed with you on this. But Malkin is a far cry from the likes of NBC, doctoring soundbites to promote racial hatred.

Originally Posted by Jaylan

OMG READ THE FACTS OF THE STORY.

Trayvon was visiting his fathers house, and was watching the NBA All Star game with his little brother. At half time he decided to go to the store for snacks. He walked there and then was walking home when Zimmerman started this whole mess. Those are the facts.

Negligible difference. He was still out of the house when he had just been grounded.

Originally Posted by Jaylan

You mean to tell me you didnt know any kids who were allowed to walk to the store when they were grounded? Because Im sure MANY people here know plenty of kids like that. This kid wasnt out hanging out in the street with people. He went the store and then tried to get back home in time for the rest of the game. Why am I even discussing this with you when you dont even have the facts straight?

Well if many people here were treated that way or would treat their children that way after being suspended for ten days, let them speak up.

Originally Posted by Jaylan

And plenty of kids are allowed to watch tv even if they are grounded. They just wont be allowed to hang out with friends. And like I said before, its entirely possible that his dad let him watch the game with his little brother because its a once a year event, and why punish the little brother as well if he wants to watch the game AT HOME with his big bro. Its also possible that Trayvon was given the gift to watch tv for being on good behavior. When I used to get punished, if I was on good behavior and finished extra chores over a set period of time, Id be allowed an hour of tv or video games.

None of what I said is uncommon or way out there. Next time get your facts straight on the case. Either way, we should both stop jumping to conclusions about his punishment.

And he very well may have had horrible parenting with no consequences. We don't know, but walking around at night after you have a ten day suspension seems fishy to me.

Originally Posted by Jaylan

Finally you get what I am saying. Public figures have supporters and naysayers. Doesnt matter who they are. You cant expect a whole group of people to rally behind a person or rally against a person.

However, if people in this country let the antics of Shaprton affect the reality of racial prejudice as whole...then such people are truly ignorant and blind. Just because Sharpton has goofed in the past does not negate the times he hasnt goofed. And his goofs do not negate the reality that America still has plenty of prejudice going on...be it racial, gender, sexual orientation, or religious prejudice.

That's just it, Sharpton is a cause of racial prejudice.

Originally Posted by Jaylan

Sharpton or no Sharpton, people in this country would question the credibility of racial prejudice complaints. This was happening before Sharpton and will happen after Sharpton lives his life. Denying racism has become the new racism in this country. Ignorance, willful or not, is what allows all forms of hate to continue in this country. And when some people have dismissive attitudes about what they themselves dont experience first hand, it only makes things worse.

Im apart of a majority group myself. Its a privileged group as well. I am a straight male. And I would have it no other way. Straight men have it a lot better in many areas of life than women or gays do. I wont deny this. I also wont dismiss a woman or gay dude's feelings of prejudice if he/she ever told me some of their experiences. I havent lived their life and itd be arrogant of me to argue with their feelings.

Bull$hit on denying racism being the new racism. False racism accusations is the new racism.

Originally Posted by Jaylan

No publicized white group? Whats the KKK then? What about the white nationalist groups that have descended upon Florida looking to stir the pot since the Martin case happened. Do your research.

I have done by research. When is the last time you saw the KKK making national news? When was the last time you saw tens of thousands rallying behind the KK like they do behind racist Sharpton? Open your eyes.

Originally Posted by Jaylan

The only ones trying to start a race war are the racist like the KKK or the new Panthers. Guys like Al Sharpton are simply telling black folks to stick together and protect their children. They arent telling them to harm anyone or start wars. Please show me quotes of the major leaders of the black community proclaiming "fighting words". The last major black leader to do that was Malcolm X. But he eventually saw the light and saw that violence wasnt the answer.

At least you agree on the Panthers. Al Sharpton is also simply unable to accept when he is wrong about things like false accusations.

Originally Posted by Jaylan

It seems you are merely threatened by black solidarity. If you can find me quotes that truly are trying to start a race war, Ill change my view of you.

Also, plenty of black folks get shot or killed by white people, usually police officers, and it barely or not make the news. The only times these stories make the news is when there is some form of profiling or racism that is obvious in those cases.

I WANT black solidarity, but I want it behind someone who is a leader that people should follow. not a piece of $hit like Sharpton who cannot own his mistakes. Perhaps you missed all my previous points supporting someone like King.

[Danger]

Originally Posted by Jaylan

lolol...the old "it happens to white people too" argument. Sure the same bad stuff happens to white people but not at nearly the same rates. Not at all. Go back and read Rubutos post. The same stuff that happens in the courts with the rate of white conviction being lower, happens on the street with cops. Whites are much, much less likely to be pulled over, stopped and frisked, or any of the sort without reasonable suspicion.

I'm not talking about crime, I'm talking about "diversity" programs, which are completely racist. Programs that deny positions to higher or equally qualified people simply because they are white. It happens ALL OF THE TIME and it is wrong.

The difference? Racism against blacks is illegal, racism against whites is the law.

Originally Posted by Jaylan

I was simply making a comparison to another marginalized group when I brought up gays.
But the problem is many times bad officers are not held accountable. Sean Bell, Johnny Gammage, DJ Henry, Amadou Diallo. All unarmed young black men shot and killed with no one seeing any jail time whatsoever. So many times people arent being held accountable. Just because the cities pay out civil settlements to the families does not mean anyone was held accountable either. Especially when those officers are still allowed to wear a badge.

Do you understand why Al Sharpton comes to rally black people together in those cases? Do you understand why he speaks out? Because all his life hes seen young black people be killed and no one face any consequences for those actions. So for all his goofs, I commend him to fighting for a good cause. I recognize the purpose he serves even though I dont agree with everything he says or does.

Sure he has positive qualities, but so did hitler. He made germany great again. But he did it at the expense of the Jewish people.

Sharpton helps the black community, but he does it at the expense of whites. Cowering like a little girl when the frenzy he whipped up was based on lies, just like the Duke case or Tawana. Surely the community can rally behind a better leader.

Originally Posted by Jaylan

Again, it starts at the top. Those with the power are able to compel their peers and subordinates to do whats right. Those is power control the PD and the courts. Black people dont control that. So when the power structure extends its hand, and shows the black community things will truly change once and for all, the black community will extend its hand amicably as well.

You act as if the black community doesnt want to see change. The black community has been desperately fighting for change for generations. The community is sick of seeing tragedies happen to its young people.

It starts with whoever wants change, not whatever groups wants to play the blame game. If the community wanted to see change, they would accept that the likes of Sharpton will get them nowhere, and that they need someone with class and they need to hold their thugs accountable.

[iqqi]

Zimmerman has a history of being a wannabe cop, and was turned away because of mental issues, he is someone who was a self appointed neighborhood watchman, who has logged a **** ton of calls to the police due to his mighty role, who carried a gun in his own neighborhood that he patrolled, in his free time, whom neighbors felt uncomfortable about and complained about, who has a history of violence and abuse, and one night he found what he was looking for, and despite being told to basically calm the F down and "not pursue", he pursued, and he finally got to kill someone "suspicious".

Unfortunately it was just a kid with skittles and a pop.

But maybe this kid hit him first (how'd that happen?), and maybe the kid smoked weed before, and maybe he spray painted a wall, and maybe he wasn't even a kid because he was 6'3 and it's not like he was nine.

I don't know, I can usually tell when someone isn't even 20 yet. But maybe I couldn't if they were wearing a hoodie in the rain and they were black.

In that case I'd probably call the cops if I was really truly concerned.

Unless I thought I was a cop, and I had a gun, and I had been looking for the sh!t for years now.

Media manipulation, speculation, all that be damned. Zimmerman had absolutely no business pursuing that KID after he called the police and they explicitly ordered him NOT TO pursue. What was he doing outside of his truck, in the rain, with his gun?

Seriously. He already outlined his intent to pursue this kid with his calls to the police, as well as his intent to "not let him get away".

Trayvon Martin definitely did not get away. George Zimmerman succeeded in his intent there.

[Quiksilver]

Originally Posted by iqqi

Zimmerman has a history of being a wannabe cop, and was turned away because of mental issues, he is someone who was a self appointed neighborhood watchman, who has logged a **** ton of calls to the police due to his mighty role, who carried a gun in his own neighborhood that he patrolled, in his free time, whom neighbors felt uncomfortable about and complained about, who has a history of violence and abuse, and one night he found what he was looking for, and despite being told to basically calm the F down and "not pursue", he pursued, and he finally got to kill someone "suspicious".

Unfortunately it was just a kid with skittles and a pop.

But maybe this kid hit him first (how'd that happen?), and maybe the kid smoked weed before, and maybe he spray painted a wall, and maybe he wasn't even a kid because he was 6'3 and it's not like he was nine.

I don't know, I can usually tell when someone isn't even 20 yet. But maybe I couldn't if they were wearing a hoodie in the rain and they were black.

In that case I'd probably call the cops if I was really truly concerned.

Unless I thought I was a cop, and I had a gun, and I had been looking for the sh!t for years now.

Media manipulation, speculation, all that be damned. Zimmerman had absolutely no business pursuing that KID after he called the police and they explicitly ordered him NOT TO pursue. What was he doing outside of his truck, in the rain, with his gun?

Seriously. He already outlined his intent to pursue this kid with his calls to the police, as well as his intent to "not let him get away".

Trayvon Martin definitely did not get away. George Zimmerman succeeded in his intent there.

No one is going to argue that Zimmerman had some poor judgement that night.

But, as I said in my above post ... Poor judgement =/= criminal action.

What criminal action(s) did Zimmerman commit that night, if any?

Also, just letting you know that in many places in the US now, police don't even respond to property crime/burglary/vandalism anymore due to budget cuts.

[Jaylan]

^wrong.

Poor judgement can and many times prosecuted as a criminal action. This is why involuntary manslaughter lands people in jail. This is why negligent homicide lands people in jail. Drinking and driving is poor judgement right? People get killed by drunk drivers right? Wanna tell me that vehicular manslaughter isnt a criminal act, especially when it was caused by drunk driving? I hope you see my point.

If you harm someone based on your own willful poor judgement, those judgements can definitely be seen as criminal. When the sum of ones poor judgements lead to the killing of another human being, thats enough to pursue prosecution of a perceived criminal act. The sum of Zimmermans many stupid judgements ending a young mans life unnecessarily. And based on his recent behavior and his lawyers bailing on him, I think charges are coming pretty soon.

We will see what the DA decides to do with this case.

[Quiksilver]

Originally Posted by Jaylan

^wrong.

Poor judgement can and many times prosecuted as a criminal action. This is why involuntary manslaughter lands people in jail. This is why negligent homicide lands people in jail. Drinking and driving is poor judgement right? People get killed by drunk drivers right? Wanna tell me that vehicular manslaughter isnt a criminal act, especially when it was caused by drunk driving? I hope you see my point.


...

Correlation =/= Causality.

Yes, poor judgement correlates to criminal actions in this context, but are you arguing: Poor Judgement = Criminal Action?

I posted the legal definition of criminal negligent manslaughter above on P.6.

First, drinking and driving = illegal.

If it wasn't illegal, it would merely be poor judgement.

... ... ...

Originally Posted by Jaylan

If you harm someone based on your own willful poor judgement, those judgements can definitely be seen as criminal. When the sum of ones poor judgements lead to the killing of another human being, thats enough to pursue prosecution of a perceived criminal act. The sum of Zimmermans many stupid judgements ending a young mans life unnecessarily. And based on his recent behavior and his lawyers bailing on him, I think charges are coming pretty soon.

I still do not know what you believe happened that night.

Please for clarity, post what you believe to be an accurate (given the known details of the case) timeline of exactly what occurred on that night, including the criminal actions which you believe Zimmerman took part in. Please bold the criminal actions in the timeline.

Be precise.

[Jaylan]

Until this case goes through trial we cannot determine with certainty whether or not Zimmermans poor judgements were equal to criminal action.

I believe his actions were, others believe they were not.

We shall wait and see.

'Nuff said.

P.S. - You can kill someone with a car without drinking. Either way, a poor judgement that results in someones death can be be seen as a criminal action, especially if a conviction is made. Also, the actions that lead up to a killing are not separate from the killing itself. The whole chain of event tie to one another as a criminal act.

[Danger]

Originally Posted by Jaylan

Until this case goes through trial we cannot determine with certainty whether or not Zimmermans poor judgements were equal to criminal action.

I believe his actions were, others believe they were not.

We shall wait and see.

'Nuff said.

P.S. - You can kill someone with a car without drinking. Either way, a poor judgement that results in someones death can be be seen as a criminal action, especially if a conviction is made. Also, the actions that lead up to a killing are not separate from the killing itself. The whole chain of event tie to one another as a criminal act.

What are the chain of events that lead you to believe what Zimmerman did was a criminal act? It seems obvious that everyone has conflicting ideas on what took place. What is your timeline and interpretation of events?