Nice Guys

[zekko]

Check out the couples you know that have the best relationships, ones that have really good relationships. Ask the woman if they think their husband is nice. Is so-and-so a nice guy?

I bet that in the vast majority of cases, the girls will say "yes, of course".
Putting the lie to the idea that woman are not attracted to nice guys, or at least define nice as the more normally socially accepted "friendly, kind, courteous", as opposed to the PUA version "boring, wimpy, approval-seeking, doormat".

Now I do know one girl who describes her husband as a jerk, but she cheats on him all the. Now he may very well be cheating on her too, but she is easily one of the slvttiest girls I know.

[Victory Unlimited]

Sometimes women will describe the guys they're with as ANYTHING that they think will make "their" choice in men as socially acceptable to the people they're talking to as possible.

Personally, I've found that MORE important than the descriptive words like "nice" that a woman uses, is the look her eye, the expression on her face, and the tone in her voice that she uses WHEN she says it.

[SharinganUser]

Women don't actually know what "nice" means to a guy.

[thirdtimescharm]

I thought this looked familiar...

http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthr...39#post1554639

[Jitterbug]

Originally Posted by zekko

Check out the couples you know that have the best relationships, ones that have really good relationships. Ask the woman if they think their husband is nice. Is so-and-so a nice guy?

How can you be so naive? What woman in a good relationship (leaving aside the very messy exercise in defining such a thing) would describe her partner as anything but nice when asked? Are you seriously expecting her to say something completely truthful like "he's a complete prick but I still luuuuvvv him and I don't know why"?

Not that a woman in a not-so-good relationship (who loves her guy despite him being a jerk) would say any different. He'd be a jerk in everyone else's eyes but hers. A woman in love will always defend her man irrationally.

You have this weird personal crusade against PUA teaching (sometimes completely imagined by yourself) that has clouded your senses. Gotta do better next time, old man.

[zekko]

Originally Posted by Jitterbug

What woman in a good relationship (leaving aside the very messy exercise in defining such a thing) would describe her partner as anything but nice when asked?

Well, I keep reading here that whenever a woman says the word "nice" about a guy, she always means it in a bad way. I am demonstrating that this belief is incorrect.

Originally Posted by Jitterbug

You have this weird personal crusade against PUA teaching

Only the parts that aren't true.

I dislike the community's use of the term "Nice Guy" because it gives the false impression that you have to be a selfish narcissist or women will be repelled by you. The basic PUA teaching that it is bad to be needy, boring, and approval seeking is correct. But the terminology creates a false impression. I've read post after post here from guys who think you can't be civil or thoughtful and still attract women.

[FairShake]

You need a nice girl for those kind of relationships.

Most guys on this site and in the PUA-sphere in general are in their early 20s. That isn't an age where people are thinking about long term relationships with nice girls. I'm in my 30s and you're even older. These are ages when you think about settling down and making a go of it with someone that you can stand to look at and talk to for awhile. In those cases a little kindness, diplomacy, and "get along" goes a long way. Those are the keys to LTRs. You HAVE to be a "nice guy" to navigate those waters. Women can't be beaten into submission anymore. Half the time they'll beat you back!

But for the kind of pump and dump schemes that 20-somethings crave being too nice really does hold you back. Girls looking for that don't want a guy that they may catch feelings for or one that may catch feelings for them, just someone to fvck. This is where bad boy comes in.

Granted if you are good looking enough, fun enough, and cool enough you can be nice or bad and you will score what you're looking for. Those are really the three things awkward dorks should shoot for.

[Colossus]

Originally Posted by FairShake

You need a nice girl for those kind of relationships.

Most guys on this site and in the PUA-sphere in general are in their early 20s. That isn't an age where people are thinking about long term relationships with nice girls. I'm in my 30s and you're even older. These are ages when you think about settling down and making a go of it with someone that you can stand to look at and talk to for awhile. In those cases a little kindness, diplomacy, and "get along" goes a long way. Those are the keys to LTRs. You HAVE to be a "nice guy" to navigate those waters. Women can't be beaten into submission anymore. Half the time they'll beat you back!

But for the kind of pump and dump schemes that 20-somethings crave being too nice really does hold you back. Girls looking for that don't want a guy that they may catch feelings for or one that may catch feelings for them, just someone to fvck. This is where bad boy comes in.

Granted if you are good looking enough, fun enough, and cool enough you can be nice or bad and you will score what you're looking for. Those are really the three things awkward dorks should shoot for.

Great post.

Zekko I think we need to remember that there is still a lot of PUA-ism in the man-o-sphere today, and these "anti-nice" philosophies are really meant for the essential PUA demographic---young 20-something males who want to fvck as much as possible. And for that they are effective.

However, as FairShake said, most of us know by now that in order to get anywhere in an LTR, you have to be diplomatic and even let her 'win' at times for the greater good. In other words, sometimes it is good to just let them think the relationship really is 50/50 and they have equal leadership; even when we know that is not what they truly want or need.

When you combine this realization with the staple "dont be a nice guy" PUA philosophy, it causes cognitive dissonance in guys who havent figured out how to separate the two. There is a time and application for "niceness", and a place for not being a nice guy. Too much of either will result in bad outcomes. Success had much more to do with your intent and general mindset as a man.

[zekko]

Originally Posted by FairShake

Most guys on this site and in the PUA-sphere in general are in their early 20s. That isn't an age where people are thinking about long term relationships with nice girls.

Oh, absolutely, I agree with you. I'm just trying to show (for those who believe it) that "nice" is not the kiss of death with women that PUAs say it is. Most women want a nice guy. Even if they like a "bad boy", they want him to be a good person underneath.

But for the kind of pump and dump schemes that 20-somethings crave being too nice really does hold you back

Well, "too nice" is bad, because then it becomes the "Nice" that PUAs talk about. But as you say, when you're younger it doesn't really matter because in a lot of cases people are just looking to experiment with sex. To a certain extent, what the person beneath is like is irrelevant.

Here's another example that shows these PUA stereotypes are BS: In the past month, I've been called a jerk, an @sshole, and a nice guy by women. How can I be all three? I will tease women a lot, and usually that's when they call me a jerk or @sshole, in a joking manner.

Here's how I got called a nice guy:
There was a new girl at work who needed my permission to do something, and one of the older girls said "Zekko will let you do it, you're a nice guy, aren't you Zekko?". I said "Hell, yes I am! That's what I keep telling everybody".

Notice I took it as a compliment and didn't start to blubber like a lot of guys on this forum: "What do you mean I'm a nice guy (lower lip quivering)? I'm not as nice as you think I am (whimper whimper)." Own that sh!t.

[zekko]

Originally Posted by Colossus

Zekko I think we need to remember that there is still a lot of PUA-ism in the man-o-sphere today, and these "anti-nice" philosophies are really meant for the essential PUA demographic---young 20-something males who want to fvck as much as possible. And for that they are effective

Yeah, probably. As I said before, I think everything PUAs say about "Nice Guys" is true. But PUAs have their own unique definition of "Nice". And this is bad because then you see young guys come on the board and they think that things like manners, and being respectful and considerate of others will repel women. They think "Nice" means "nice". So they jettison whatever values they have in order to get girls.

Originally Posted by Colossus

However, as FairShake said, most of us know by now that in order to get anywhere in an LTR, you have to be diplomatic and even let her 'win' at times for the greater good. In other words, sometimes it is good to just let them think the relationship really is 50/50 and they have equal leadership; even when we know that is not what they truly want or need.

I firmly hold the frame with my girlfriend. She knows I make the decisions, and she trusts and relies on me to make them. She knows I have good judgement. She's a keeper.

[Warrior74]

Originally Posted by zekko

Oh, absolutely, I agree with you. I'm just trying to show (for those who believe it) that "nice" is not the kiss of death with women that PUAs say it is.

This is fodder for the PUA sites and the main discussion board. The average MM guy is not trying to be a PUA. It's highly irrelevant and I hate I bothered to read any of this.

If you are over 30 and are worried about being called a Nice guy, something is really really wrong. If you are over 30 and are trying to play the manipulative jerk with grown women, haha good luck with that. You are this and should probably get back to basics.

Faire Shake nailed it.

[PairPlusRoyalFlush]

Originally Posted by Warrior74

If you are over 30 and are trying to play the manipulative jerk with grown women, haha good luck with that.

Yeah I've noticed that too, 26 or older its a whole different ball game. Have scared off some quality and low-quality women with my C+F behavior and its harder to read IOI's. Luckily I mainly date younger chicks.

[Atom Smasher]

Originally Posted by Colossus

In other words, sometimes it is good to just let them think the relationship really is 50/50 and they have equal leadership; even when we know that is not what they truly want or need.

Sorry, but I don't think I've ever read anything on this site that I've disagreed with more.

Women innately know that they want and need to be led, and that dynamic has to be defined early in the relationship. If you let a women think she has co-leadership with you, that's the spark that sets a flame you'll never be able to put out. It is the natural order of things for the man to lead and have authority. A women may yap about how she wants to be "equal", but once you let her she will start to despise you.

Zekko, you seem to be hung up on this phrase, "nice guy". "Nice guy" to a women is different than "nice guy" to a man. If a woman says a spouse is a nice guy and is apparently approving of it, that means he is STRONG with her but fair and nice to people in-general. He is balanced and doesn't take any crap from anybody, including her.

We men use the term "nice guy" to mean a man who is spineless and weak. A woman wants what I mentioned in the above paragraph. What I described in this paragraph is what a women would call a "wimp".

Women always respond favorably to a strong man with an internal locus of control, because she does not have that within herself. She takes all cues from outside of herself. We are always attracted to that which we do not possess ourselves when it comes to the genders.

So the way we use "nice guy", women are repelled by that. The way they use "nice guy", they are attracted to that. They are two entirely different things.

[zekko]

Originally Posted by Atom Smasher

If a woman says a spouse is a nice guy and is apparently approving of it, that means he is STRONG with her but fair and nice to people in-general.

My sole purpose with this thread was to respond to several posts I have read here claiming that anytime a woman uses the words "nice" or "nice guy", they mean it in a negative way.

I disagree with that. As you note, there are two meanings to the terms: "good guy" and "wimp". I find both genders might use either meaning.

I have also read a premise here that women coined the phrase "nice guy" to describe unattractive men. I disagree with that as well.
I think unattractive men started use of the term as an excuse for their failure with women, and to portray themselves as victims. "I'm a nice guy, but women don't like nice guys, poor me, they like jerks". But these guys didn't fail with women because they were nice, they failed because of their other unattractive traits.

Women then picked up on this effort by guys to make them feel guilty for not dating them, and started using the term themselves. But they still use both meanings, and many women are probably not even aware of the negative version of the term.

Originally Posted by Warrior74

If you are over 30 and are worried about being called a Nice guy, something is really really wrong. If you are over 30 and are trying to play the manipulative jerk with grown women, haha good luck with that. You are this and should probably get back to basics.

I'm glad you agree with me. Should I write down to the 25 year olds?
However, I've read numerous posts from guys older than me who buy into the whole nice guy/jerk game idea.

[samspade]

As with all things that fall out of a woman's mouth, adjectives such as "nice," "jerk," and "a-hole" are to be taken with a grain of salt, considered in context, or discarded altogether.

How does a woman act toward her man? That will tell you all you need to know.

"Nice" is totally relative. "You're a nice guy, Jim, you're like a brother" = you're a wuss and I won't date you.

"I just met a great guy, he's tall, handsome, really nice, funny, and oh he works in finance" = I will probably fuqq this guy on the 2nd date unless he gives me an obvious reason not to.

Just remember to mind your status and frame with women, always. Being described with the N-word (the N-word in the PUA world, that is) is all about context; other women will "get" what your wife/gf means by how she dresses the term.

[zekko]

Originally Posted by Atom Smasher

Zekko, you seem to be hung up on this phrase, "nice guy".

Let me put it this way. Ever since I've been coming to this site, I have been inundated (either directly or indirectly) with the message that being a good guy is bad, and that women always go to the guys in the black hats.

This is the biggest falsehood perpetuated by the pickup community, and in my life experience (51 years) I have not found this to be true. For the most part, I try to ignore this, but for every 1,000 posts or so I read with this message, I feel the need to post something refuting it. Sorry if some people don't like it.

Originally Posted by samspade

adjectives such as "nice," "jerk," and "a-hole" are to be taken with a grain of salt, considered in context, or discarded altogether.

Totally agree. I find that women throw around the terms "nice", "nice guy", "jerk", and "@sshole" quite a lot. They could mean any of these in a positive or a negative light, it all depends on the context.

Regarding the term "@sshole", I have lately read a few statements saying that simply having the balls to approach is "@sshole behavior". Because it supposedly takes an a-hole to have the ego to think a woman might like him. So now according to some in the pickup community, simply being a confident man = being an @sshole. I find it disgusting.

[bmp2cpm]

As someone who's been married way too long, I have to disagree with Zekko.

1) Women never mean what they say. So asking a woman anything directly is kind of pointless. It all needs to be translated and taken into context.
2) All the marriages I've seen that seem to work, the husband puts himself and his needs ahead of his wife's needs on a fairly regular basis.
3) Nice guy to me means putting the woman's needs first and foremost, which is a recipe for disaster. (I learned this the hard way.)
4) It's all about finding the right balance. If you're single, a man should put his needs ahead of the woman > 50% of the time. When you're married, I would say 50% or less. It depends on the individuals involved and the stage of the relationship. But if your needs are first <15% of the time in the relationship, you're screwed.
5) As children, women grew up in a world where their father or father-figure wasn't constantly nice to them and often didn't put them first. He was busy being a provider and probably put work and day-to-day life ahead of his daughter. This is what women are used too. This is how their earliest relationships with men were like. We all go into relationships that our familiar to us. We don't like the unfamiliar. Being too nice is unfamiliar to women.

[st_99]

this topic is so played out. imo, nice and jerk have little to do with game, seduction, dating, ltr's, ons's, etc.

a mean angry mofo and help an old lady cross the street nice guy can be equally good or bad with women. its a separate skill set, and what i mean by that is a 'nice guy' or 'jerk' both have to go into game mode to get girls and that requires more than just your natural personality of being nice or jerk.

[5string]

Interesting posts. This past weekend my wife said something about me being so nice. So then I asked her if she thought I was a nice guy. She answered by saying stuff alluding to me being a great provider, not putting her down, etc. She then went on to say that she knows what I say goes, although I'm considerate enough to listen to her thoughts/opinions. Winked and smiled when stating I was very aggressive in the bedroom.

Maybe there is a medium here between what we call nice and bad. I think there is in my case. Of course my wife and I have assumed rather traditional roles as husband and wife in our marriage. I like it like this. Works for me.

[zekko]

I notice several posters seem to associate dominance over their wives or mates with "bad" or "not nice" behavior. I wonder where this perception comes from. Perhaps the feminist influence is deeper than I thought.

This is simply the natural male role, or traditional male role as 5string puts it. If anything, I would call this "good" behavior, not bad. Of course, to lead well, one must be a good, fair leader.