Cultivate feelings of attraction & desire, not feelings of obligation

[bartender]

Originally posted by Lothie:
Yes, I will be all right. I'm "Richard" that you all read about. It was quite a job reading and considering all your criticisms and observations. But I've definitely learned a lot, and when you're told you're wrong, the experience is both humbling and gratifying.

Hey welcome Lothie. You are at right place. You know I myself am the kind of guy who has to be told very clearly that he is wrong or else I will not do anything about it. So don't take my criticism too personal. I have been at the exact same spot you wrote about and I needed to be criticized but there was no one to criticise me unfortunately.

It's good to hear you are doing alright.

[Bonhomme]

Bump!

This is a damn good post, DeepBlue, and explains a lot of things -- positive and negative -- I've experienced recently. I've copied & pasted it into my DJ info file.

An edited version would be a great addition to the DJ Bible.

--------------------

Welcome, Lothie!

You certainly have come to the right place. Coming here will give the right ideas, which will bring the right thoughts, which will lead to the right actions. Then you'll be posting success stories from which we will all be learning.

[Lothie]

Originally posted by DeepBlue:

I agree with that, but the problem is that Richard is not acknowledging the degree to which his whole approach to getting her number and getting a date is leveraging off the woman's desire to be nice, kind, etc.

I didn't see it that way before - wish I had been this perceptive at the start.


It is also possible to ask a girl for her number or a date in a way that subtly lets her know that your feelings will be hurt if she doesn't have the "kindness and basic human decency" to give you this thing that means SO much to you--especially if you were "nice enough" to give her some compliments first.

Often a woman will go along with that, out of a desire to feel like she is kind and nice and not hurt the guys feelings.

She may have tried not to hurt my feelings, but I would have been perfectly willing to accept a "no thanks, I'm not interested" response - a firm but polite decline.

On the other hand, it's not clear that she WANTED to say "no" at the time. She could have had mixed feelings which could have been an opportunity for me to lead. So I messed up in any event.

But no chick wants to keep getting herded into one social engagement after the next just so some guy will continue to view her as a nice and kind person.

When it comes to her social life, a woman wants to be following her attraction and desire!

So sooner or later she will take steps to extricate herself from that type of social pressure, even if it means she finally has to take a stand and face having the guy accuse her of being a "b**ch" just because she's no longer going along with his program.

DeepBlue

Got it.



[This message has been edited by Lothie (edited 03-13-2002).]

[Lothie]

Originally posted by Lothie:
Originally posted by DeepBlue:

It is also possible to ask a girl for her number or a date in a way that subtly lets her know that your feelings will be hurt if she doesn't have the "kindness and basic human decency" to give you this thing that means SO much to you--especially if you were "nice enough" to give her some compliments first.

Often a woman will go along with that, out of a desire to feel like she is kind and nice and not hurt the guys feelings.

She may have tried not to hurt my feelings, but I would have been perfectly willing to accept a "no thanks, I'm not interested" response - a firm but polite decline.

Re-reading DB's post, I've noticed that he emphasized over and over that women generally don't seek confrontation. I admit I wasn't keenly aware before of this rule - such as it is - about women. And since I missed it the first time reading DB's post, I posted the above response about the polite decline.

Actually, in the past, I have met polite rejection by women who were firm and direct, and I was OK with that. But these I admit were few, which only would make them exceptions.




[This message has been edited by Lothie (edited 03-13-2002).]

[DeepBlue]

Hi Lothie,
It was good of you to join in and add more details to the account.

Based on your input, I have something to add.


Lothie wrote:
In my original email, I left out that she explained that she was at the time busy writing a manuscript (she’s an aspiring professor), and that after a few weeks, maybe she would have more time and we could possibly hang out.


This suggests that she genuinely WAS interested in you (to an extent) to begin with.

Remember I mentioned the need to distinguish yourself from "the masses" so that she doesn't gut react to you with the same reflexive "shield" that helps her filter the attention she gets all day from the general crowd of health club members?

In telling you that she is an aspiring professor working on a manuscript she is actually taking a step to distinguish HERSELF in YOUR eyes from the other health club staff. That suggests that she had some interest in you.

The main problem is basic. Once you felt the fish nibbling on the line you became too eager and that turned her off. It's like a guy suddenly jumping up and down with excitement at having sold you his car. Or seeming worried that you might change your mind. These types of things all make you question the value of the product and your decision to buy it.


I also want to clarify something I said in the original post. I had stated that you were "bullying" the chick by verbally pushing her to commit to a meeting.

I now realize that may have been a confusing choice of words.

Bullying means coercing someone, usually with a threat or implied threat of violence.

In the scenario I was discussing, there was obviously no bullying in that sense. I am not even suggesting that you were impolite or boorish.

Quite the contrary, you are clearly very polite and considerate. Strange as it may sound, it is that very politeness along with your sense of fairness, consideration, etc., that you were using (unconsciously) as a subtle tool to guide the chick into agreeing to things.

So the "bullying" I referred to didn't hinge on threats of violence, but rather a much more subtle type of threat. Specifically, the vague unstated threat that the chick might appear impolite, or that she might seem inconsiderate, or that she might come across as unreasonable, cold, insensitive, or unfriendly, or simply that she might hurt your feelings.

When you ask a woman for her number, or ask her to get together with you, it is essential to NOT give off a vibe that says it's really important to you that she says "yes".

Doing that is a subtle attempt to force a "yes" outcome and even if it works, it will decrease her interest in you at the same time. But I think I've made that clear enough.

In one of your replies you wrote:
I would have been perfectly willing to accept a "no thanks, I'm not interested" response
You say that, but the fact is you really, really wanted her to reciprocate your interest in getting together. That NEED came through. What kind of message do you think it conveyed when you persisted in insisting that she "make time" to meet with you?

In one of your replies you mentioned:
"...in the past, I have met polite rejection by women who were firm and direct, and I was OK with that.


All that means is that if a woman is sufficiently assertive and self-confident to give you a "no" that is polite, firm and direct, then you are OK with it. I believe you.

It also means that you ran into an exceptionally tough chick who won't allow herself to be nudged an inch any direction by the fear of hurting someone's feelings, or the fear of seeming unfriendly and so on.

Really hot chicks who get hit on all the time often develop a side that behaves this way. Just press the AFC button (i.e. try pressuring her or otherwise manipulating her into being interested in you, for instance with compliments or bribes) and you'll activate that side of her sometimes known as the b*tch shield.

Anyway, the fact that some women know how to handle these tactics doesn't change the fact that guys routinely employ these tactics (often without even being aware of it) rather than relying entirely on the feelings of attraction and desire that they need to awaken in a woman.

This is especially likely when a guy thinks a chick won't be interested in him--or, if he gets the impression that an interested chick is suddenly, unexpectedly losing interest.

That's why chicks always toss some rejection at a guy. To test him and see if his confidence in his desirability suddenly falters, prompting him to resort to tactics intended to "make her" interested.

DeepBlue

[SoSuave.com]

To The Archive.

[KnightErrant]

Interesting that this one should pop up today
It reads very similar to my C&B today.

A point I forgot, seduce don't obligate...

[Cesare Cardinali]

DeepBlue,
I just want to say that this post absolutely blew my mind. It was as if you were speaking directly to me regarding many of my past experiences with women. Amazing insight, and I'm glad you took the time to answer "Richard" and that you had the generosity to share the wise advice with us here.

[Ricky]

Very interesting post.

I think alot of you should read this. He did supplicate by calling her cute and when she said "I don't date gym guys" couldn't he have said, "Who said anything about date, I just thought we could go out as friends!, no pressure in that" Then he could say "Oh but you think of me as more as a potential date, huh" You know the old cocky and funny.

It would at least be funny.

I had an experience with a girl that works at the gym Sometimes she was quite friendly, but after she saw me out at a concert with a girl I was dating, she acted pretty damn flaky! LOL, she must have liked me. But now she wont say crap to me, LOL

[thecraftylefty]

Wow, after looking through the archives for a while I spotted this post and it blew my mind. There is so much information and knowledge that it's incredible. It's written in a way that shows you how to actually go about and sarge a girl. Follow this model and you're gold.

"If your rap is strong it can't go wrong."

thecraftylefty

[MattB]

this post will change my life.


thank you, deep blue

[Derek Flint]

The lesson here is, don't be a "Richard"

Seriously, Richard sounds like a former good friend of mine.

The reason he is a former friend is because I gave him similar advice, yet he kept repeating the same mistakes over and over and over, and it was always the fault of those "*****es"

[Microphone Fiend]

such clarity and articulation

amazing post

[Microphone Fiend]

still THE best post that I have read concerning the pick up and dynamics involved. The ultimate breakdown of a crash and burn and how important the mindset is.

BUMP!

[Monkey]

The only important part of this post is:

"She said she was uncomfortable with people at the gym knowing that she was going out with someone there."

This indicated LOW, LOW interest and was time to move on...

...everything else here is meaningless.

[SexPDX]

Originally Posted by Monkey

The only important part of this post is:

"She said she was uncomfortable with people at the gym knowing that she was going out with someone there."

This indicated LOW, LOW interest and was time to move on...

...everything else here is meaningless.

Wrong. This is one of the most insightful articles ever posted here. And if you are prepared to dismiss the entire post by making a Doc Love style remark about the chick in the story's "interest level" and declare everything else meaningless you are missing out on a lot.

-PDX

[DJKid]

Originally Posted by SexPDX

Wrong. This is one of the most insightful articles ever posted here. And if you are prepared to dismiss the entire post by making a Doc Love style remark about the chick in the story's "interest level" and declare everything else meaningless you are missing out on a lot.

-PDX

I completely agree. This is one of my favorite archived threads, one which should be internalized.

[TizZle]

Bump

[Tortendieb]

Thanks for bumping. Every now and then I come here and find an old post that ABSOLUTELY rings true for my current situation.

The problem is that this approach actually works, in the short run, and that often leads guys into viewing it as the right way to proceed. You CAN force a yes from a chick that way, because she’ll give in to the pressure, but later she’ll look for a way to get out of it and you’ll end up dismissing her as yet another “flake.”

[ljm]

How would you manifest this into an ltr is what im interested in.....seems once ppl are in a ltr they feel they own their partner?