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Old 11-03-2009, 02:33 PM   #1
legolas
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The 7 most common mistakes shy guys make with women

Hey guys,

Over the past few years, I've made a lot of discoveries and personal changes that have reflected themselves in ten times more friends, tripled the number of dates I've had and overall increased my happiness. It all started when I began to realize some really horrible mistakes I was making in my dealings with women.

These weren't just things I was doing wrong. These were actual mindsets that literally held me back from having the kind of success with women I really wanted. When I finally learned how to change them and reverse them, things started to make a lot more sense and women started to get more interested in me almost overnight.

If you find any of the information presented here useful or insightful and you're a shy guy, I'd like to hear from you. Please follow the link at the end to fill out a quick 5 minute survey.

So without further ado here they are in no particular order.

Mistake 1: They try to get the girl interested in them

The first mistake is counter-intuitive. Typically shy guys will try to come up with schemes or tricks to get girls to like them. They will scour the internet for tips and techniques on how to “get” girls or on how to get sex from girls.

Women absolutely loathe this kind of thing!

Why? Well imagine you had something that people want. For example, a really nice car.

Your friends will always call you to try to get you to go out with them; they will try and get you to lend them the car or try to get you to give them a ride by trying to be nice to you or trying to be your best friend

You can immediately tell that their intentions are not genuine – they just want you for the car and don’t care about you otherwise – and it pisses you off. Some times you may even fall for it; thinking that a guy is being honest and that he's your best friend while he's only interested in your material possessions. When he gets what he wanted and leaves you, that's when you see what a manipulative jerk he really was!

How does that make you feel? Doesn't that make you feel used? Welcome to the reality of every attractive woman!

She gets approached every day by random strangers who want to get her interested in them or want to get in her pants. And these guys are willing to do anything, take her out on expensive dinners, buy her stuff, be nice to her and become her best friend, and a plethora of other things just so that he can get what he wants.

The sad part is that when women fall for this, they end up getting hurt and it scars them for life. They end up resenting men and having a hard time trusting them.

Then there are some guys who will teach you to do the OPPOSITE. They will tell you to be a jerk to women, put them down and pretend you're not interested and you don’t want anything from them. This may work sometimes but usually it will attract low-self esteem girls who are craving attention from men. If that's who you're after then it's fine, but me personally I prefer women with high self-esteem. These women will see right through your little games and dismiss you as immature.

Mistake 2: They focus too much on trying to say the right thing to impress the girl

Shy guys worry too much about finding the right thing to say, finding the perfect opening line or finding the perfect moment to jump in and say something. So they wait and wait and when the conversation is over they wonder why they couldn’t think of anything to say.

This is one of the reasons why they are shy in the first place. They are just trying too hard to impress others. In their mind they have a fantasy of saying something and wow-ing everybody. When they can’t think of anything to say, they just shut up and sit in the background.

The other reason they are shy is because of the fear of being judged by others. They just can’t seem to understand that other people are so damn preoccupied with their own issues that they don’t even notice.

If you're one of these guys, you should realize that most people are not even paying attention to you. Just walk around your city and notice how many people actually pay attention to you. They're just sleepwalking through their day, deep in thought and they couldn't care less about you. Why would they? You're not that important to them. Heck, they don't even know you! Even if they judge, so ****ing what??

Besides, we already discussed why you shouldn't even be focusing on trying to impress others, especially women. It's just another form of trying to "get" something from her and she does not want to feel used.

There is such a thing as the wrong thing to say however. You wouldn’t discuss sex at the dinner table in front of your family or talk about love with your buddies. There are certain topics that you should almost never discuss in social situations, such as depressing news, politics, things like violence against women, divorce, etc. Socializing is meant to be fun and these topics will ruin all the fun. You will be seen as a weirdo and be outcast.

In line with this mistake is also the idea of trying to figure out what the girl wants or what she’s “looking for” in a guy and then trying to be that guy. This is a losing game to play because, say you figure this out intuitively or she tells you and you play this role and “get” the girl.

Then what? How are you going to keep seeing this girl if you’re still trying to play a role that is not who you really are? How do you expect to stop pretending to be someone else and still hope that she will like you?

Maybe you think that after spending time with you she will eventually like you? I don’t think so! So drop it. Stop pretending to be someone else on her behalf and start thinking about what you really want and find a girl who fits those criteria. Then you don't have to pretend to be someone else. You can be yourself.

Mistake 3: They underestimate their own value while overestimating the girl’s value. They don’t think they’re good enough to attract really hot women

One of the most difficult things I've had to deal with was the idea that I wasn't worthy of a hot girl. Somehow I had gotten into my head the idea that a hot girl has a lot of options and she can choose anyone she wants so why would she choose me? This almost made me settle for sub-par girls as I'd get very nervous when talking to a girl I perceived to be "out of my league"

If this sounds like you then you need to understand that there are two fundamentally wrong assumptions here. The first one is the idea that a hot girl has a lot of options and the second one is the idea that you have no value just by yourself.

First of all it would seem that a hot girl has lots of options. There are many guys pursuing her, trying to get her to go out with them and you would think that she can choose from a large pool of guys. The reality from a woman’s perspective is different.

I know a girl who goes on a lot of dates. She accepts invitations to go on dates from many guys who want to be her boyfriend and yet she is still single. It’s not that she hasn’t had boyfriends, she's certainly had her share, but in reality she can’t trust every guy that comes along and wants to date her. She is looking for someone in particular and despite the large pool of guys she’s going out with, that one perfect guy for her is still elusive.

Next time you have a chance, ask a female friend or co-worker about the kinds of guys who approach her vs. those who she ends up dating long term. So what does this mean? It means that if you're the right guy for her, you have a chance!! And the only way you find that out is by asking her out.

Second let’s deal with the idea that you have no value or that you’re not worthy. There are two symptoms to this problem. The first one is thinking: "I can be smarter", "I can be cooler", "I can be more hard-working", "I can be more social" where you compare yourself to your ideal self.

While this is great to help you work on improving yourself, you've got to realize that you are not competing for women with your ideal self. You may still be "imperfect" according to your standards but that doesn't mean you have no value. Just the fact that you are a living, breathing organism means that you are valuable.

The second symptom is the one where you compare yourself to some imaginary guy out there who’s taller than you, more athletic, far better looking and far more successful than you. This is the same as comparing yourself to the "ideal you" except the ideal is someone who doesn't exist.

The other thing you have to your advantage is the uniqueness that only you can offer. In other words, she can only get you from you. When you begin to understand that women are attracted to your character traits and your personality much more than they are attracted to looks, or money then you can finally relax and go after the girls you really like and see if they fit your criteria.
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Last edited by legolas : 11-03-2009 at 11:21 PM.
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Old 11-03-2009, 02:36 PM   #2
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Mistake 4: They think that once they get the girl, everything will be ok. They will finally be happy and their life will no longer be boring

The underlying assumption here is that girls bring you happiness. That may be true temporarily, since every new relationship is exciting in the beginning. However, looking to the girl to bring you happiness is buying into the idea that happiness exists outside of you and that you need to acquire things in order to be happy.

Just like getting more money, getting a girl will not only fail to make you happy, it will accelerate or expose the problems and insecurities that already exist. Unless you figure out how to deal with them the relationship will bring you more frustration rather than happiness. You will undoubtedly lose the girl and end up getting hurt more.

You’ve got to be able to put your life together and be happy regardless of whether you have a girl around or not. So when you meet a girl who’s worthy of being your girlfriend, you can invite her into your life to enjoy the ride.

Many times shy guys will want to get into the girl’s life and become a part of it. The problem here is that she will now define your life and you will no longer be independent. You will have checked your manhood at the door and she now owns your balls.

The other assumption is that once you get a girl a you'll think your “work” is done and you can FINALLY relax. This is BY FAR the most common thing that happens to shy guys who manage to find a girl and get a relationship.

They get the girl interested and then stop doing all the things they did that attracted her in the first place. Far more relationships get broken because the girl feels the guy starts to take her for granted and no longer does special things for her.

Mistake 5: They act indecisive instead of making a decision and leading the girl properly

This is by far the most common mistake. Under the guise of equality shy guys will act indecisive and make the girl make the decision. It's almost like they don't want to take responsibility for leading her because they're scared that she will not like his ideas.

How many times has a girl asked you “So what do you want to do?” and you’ve replied “I don’t know what do you want to do?” This may seem innocent to you, in fact you may think that you're doing this because you care about her, but what she sees is a man who is not strong enough to lead her and she gets frustrated.

Women absolutely hate it when guys act indecisive and can't make up their mind!

You see, underneath it all women are really looking for someone who will take charge and show them the way. This is your default role as a masculine man, to lead her confidently. When you act indecisive and hesitate to make a decision out of fear of her disapproval she perceives you as a weak feminine man.

The secret to leading women is to have multiple ideas in your head and suggest them to her. If she agrees then great, if she suggests something back then you can still make the final decision. If she’s undecided then it’s up to you to say “Ok, we’re going for a walk and we’ll grab a bite later” She’ll happily follow.

Women want strong, confident men who know how to lead. Why?

It shows that you have the necessary traits to be a survivor and she’ll rather be with a man who knows what he’s doing since it’s very likely that those traits will be transferred to their offspring and give the little ones a better chance for survival as well.

This is why you’ll need to come up with ideas that are beneficial to both you and her and then suggest them. Other times you’ll want to keep the plans secret and surprise her, but this is only for later on in the relationship.

Mistake 6: They hesitate and try to look for signals before approaching a girl or before asking her out

One of the trickiest things for a shy guy to deal with is figuring out if a girl is interested in him and trying to read her signs of interest. He’s looking for the green light that will tell him for sure that she is interested so he go and ask her out and not have to worry about her saying no.

There are several issues at play here. First of all is the idea that you have to read a woman’s signs before going in and asking her out. This idea comes from the many stories that women tell of guys asking her out when – in her mind – she is clearly not interested in them. She incorrectly assumes that the guy should be able to read her mind.

In her mind she's thinking that she wasn’t showing any signs of interest so he should have read these “signs” before approaching. There is some truth to that. You wouldn’t ask a girl out without first finding out if she’s the kind of person that you do want to date. In reality, you cannot possibly read her mind.

There is only one sure fire way to find out if a woman is interested. It's called compliance. What it means is that she's putting work towards getting to know you. She's doing her part of the equation. When you ask her out she says yes and she even volunteers her phone number or email. When you call her to set up a date she accepts and then she goes out with you.

If she's not doing her part in getting to know you, then she's either a spoiled brat who's used to men doing everything for her or she's not interested. Either way, you have a very clear indication and you can act accordingly. If you continue to put in effort while she's not cooperating she will lose interest in you.

There’s also another assumption that is understood but not verbalized that IF a girl is showing signs of being interested in you, then you should ask her out.

The hidden theme is that women make the choice and men then follow. She chooses you and then you should go for it, regardless of whether she's the right girl for you, because that’s the best you can do right now. There are many shy guys I know who say that the only action they get is from women who approach them.

While this may be true in the animal kingdom, where the male showcases his thing to impress the female and get her to choose him to mate with, I believe that you also have a choice. You should pick out the right girl for you from the pool of girls who are also interested in you. In the end it’s a mutual choice.

Mistake 7: They’re are too sexually timid and they misunderstand the sexual nature of women.

Shy guys tend to be too timid sexually. They don’t fully understand their own sexual nature and are not in touch with their masculinity.They’ve either bought into the idea that sex is wrong or that they have to be discreet about their sexual desire and hide them. Some shy guys are even ashamed of their sexual desires for women.

The other assumption shy guys make is that good women are not supposed to be sexually expressive, or even worse, they assume that women don't get horny and don’t like sex and the ones who do are not good women, they are sluts.

This is a HUGE sticking point that can derail your life in the bedroom even after you get married. It’s usually a result of social programming from a young age as a way to protect you so you don’t screw up early in life with things like pregnancy and disease.

If you’re one of those guys, the way to reverse this is to start to educate yourself on female sexuality. Read some books on it. Maybe even a romance novel so you can see if you can understand the psychology behind it.

Begin to realize that women are human beings like you and I and they also have urges. Remember that to procreate a man and a woman need to have sex. That’s why nature made us have urges.

Women are built to have many times the amount of pleasure than a man can. Can you imagine having an entire organ whose purpose is to experience pleasure? Having wave after wave of multiple orgasms for hours?

I know what it feels like because I used to have the same problem myself. It was like a big wall that I had to slowly take down bit by bit. It wasn’t easy, but with hard work in trying to understand my desires and through reading as much as I could on the subject of sexuality, I’ve achieved a level of understanding now that is light years ahead of where I was before.

I now understand that it’s hard for women too to express their sexuality as the society usually frowns and looks down upon the women who talk openly about it. Women fear the social stigma of the label “slut” more than anything!! When you understand this, you will understand how discretion on your part will bring you loads of women who are happy to enjoy sharing their body with you because they know you will not go around and tell all your friends about it.

If you have found any of the information presented here useful or insightful and you're a shy guy, I'd like to hear from you. I have created a short survey for you to help me help you by telling me what you want to learn. I would appreciate it if you can take 5 minutes and fill it out. You can find it here: https://spreadsheets.google.com/view...VQdUd KQXc6MA
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Last edited by legolas : 11-03-2009 at 11:19 PM.
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Old 11-03-2009, 03:39 PM   #3
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One of the best posts I have ever read here. Your advice and analysis really hits home. I may even try to read a trashy romance novel just to see if it helps me understand why women do what they do (since it's still a complete mystery to me.), lol. Even though your name references Lord of the Rings, you still sound like you know what you're talking about. =P

This should have its own link or at least sticky'd.
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Old 11-03-2009, 08:36 PM   #4
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This needs to be archived instantly
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Old 11-03-2009, 09:33 PM   #5
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I'm glad you found this useful. This some of my best thinking of the past couple of years. I would appreciate it if you could help me out with the survey. No need to put your email address there, if that turned you off. I really want to help shy guys out if I knew what they wanted to learn most.
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Old 11-04-2009, 02:04 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legolas
I'm glad you found this useful. This some of my best thinking of the past couple of years. I would appreciate it if you could help me out with the survey. No need to put your email address there, if that turned you off. I really want to help shy guys out if I knew what they wanted to learn most.

Will do.

I have a feeling that among shy guys (and pretty much guys in general) what we want to learn most is how to bang the highest percentage of the world's population of HB 8's and above. Pretty straightforward, lol.
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Old 11-05-2009, 02:55 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just a Shot Away
One of the best posts I have ever read here. Your advice and analysis really hits home. I may even try to read a trashy romance novel just to see if it helps me understand why women do what they do (since it's still a complete mystery to me.), lol. Even though your name references Lord of the Rings, you still sound like you know what you're talking about. =P

This should have its own link or at least sticky'd.

Geez, need some knee pads?
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Old 11-05-2009, 10:40 AM   #8
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Great thread legolas. I haven't looked at this forum in a few months and your thread was just what I needed to read. I've addressed each of your points with my feedback, mostly about issues that concern me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by legolas

Mistake 1: They try to get the girl interested in them
Then what is the alternative? If you don't try to get girls to like you then how are you supposed to get anything?
Quote:
Mistake 2: They focus too much on trying to say the right thing to impress the girl
Again, what is the alternative?

Too often there are situations where I'm with a girl and I can't think of anything 'cool' to talk about. So I regrettably get up and leave. I'm worried about being seen as a boring guy which leads into #3.
Quote:
Mistake 3: They underestimate their own value while overestimating the girl’s value. They don’t think they’re good enough to attract really hot women
One of the most difficult things I've had to deal with was the idea that I wasn't worthy of a hot girl.

Let’s deal with the idea that you have no value or that you’re not worthy. There are two symptoms to this problem. The first one is thinking: "I can be smarter", "I can be cooler", "I can be more hard-working", "I can be more social" where you compare yourself to your ideal self.

That is my number one issue. I believe that I have no value. I have no friends and I never do anything cool. On Halloween I was sitting at home playing video games when when everybody else at college was at parties. Why would anybody want to be with me? My confidence is non-existent.

I've had weekly meetings with a counselor for the past few months. I have more half-finished self-help and dating books than I can count.

Quote:
Mistake 4: They think that once they get the girl, everything will be ok. They will finally be happy and their life will no longer be boring

The underlying assumption here is that girls bring you happiness. That may be true temporarily, since every new relationship is exciting in the beginning. However, looking to the girl to bring you happiness is buying into the idea that happiness exists outside of you and that you need to acquire things in order to be happy.
I admit that I do think that way. How could I not? I've been unhappy most of my life because I wanted a girl in my life and yet I never had one. Isn't it the logical conclusion that getting what one wants would make them happy? For me it's deeply connected connected to my confidence. The fact that I can't get a girl really hurts. Once I do get one the part of myself that is calling me a loser will die. I'll start to like myself.

Of course this is all theory and the only way to even test it is to have a relationship. Once that happens I can find out if my beliefs are wrong.

Quote:
Mistake 5: They act indecisive instead of making a decision and leading the girl properly
This is actually a problem I don't have. In the times that I had female friends I always had ideas of things to do with them. There are so many things I want to do, but don't because I'm alone.

I see having a girlfriend as having an activity partner that you also have sex with.

Quote:
Mistake 6: They hesitate and try to look for signals before approaching a girl or before asking her out
I definitely make this mistake. I have no idea how many girls I've missed out on because I was waiting for a sign.

One important 'reason' for waiting though, is that some guys are scared of getting hurt. It's easier to wait for the green light and go for a sure thing then take a chance and crash and burn. Of course the green light may never come.

Quote:
There is only one sure fire way to find out if a woman is interested. It's called compliance. What it means is that she's putting work towards getting to know you. She's doing her part of the equation. When you ask her out she says yes and she even volunteers her phone number or email. When you call her to set up a date she accepts and then she goes out with you.
That is very rare. I can count the numbers of girls I've known on one hand who've shown interest in me that way.
Quote:
There’s also another assumption that is understood but not verbalized that IF a girl is showing signs of being interested in you, then you should ask her out.
Is this a correct or incorrect assumption?
Quote:
The hidden theme is that women make the choice and men then follow. She chooses you and then you should go for it, regardless of whether she's the right girl for you, because that’s the best you can do right now. There are many shy guys I know who say that the only action they get is from women who approach them.
As long as she meets my standards why not? Sex with a 6 is a million times better than not having any sex. If any girl shows interest in me and I recognize it, and if she meets my minimum criteria I will pursue.

Quote:
Mistake 7: They’re are too sexually timid and they misunderstand the sexual nature of women.

Shy guys tend to be too timid sexually. They don’t fully understand their own sexual nature and are not in touch with their masculinity.They’ve either bought into the idea that sex is wrong or that they have to be discreet about their sexual desire and hide them. Some shy guys are even ashamed of their sexual desires for women.

Another issue that I am dealing with, though probably not in the way that you expressed.

It is very hard for me to express my sexuality in social situations. I cannot tell when it is appropriate to do so. This makes flirting and joking about sex very difficult.

It mainly comes down to a lack of experience and having no confidence in the area. I'm also afraid that talking about sex will offend the girl I'm talking to.

When it comes down to actually having sex, I have no issues. I know women are sexual creatures. Just getting them into that state of mind about me is the hard part.
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Old 11-05-2009, 10:46 AM   #9
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Quote:
Mistake 3: They underestimate their own value while overestimating the girl’s value. They don’t think they’re good enough to attract really hot women
I think I'm a pretty high value guy, but I still struggle with this one a bit. I think the key is when you say "really hot women". So I'll assume you're talking about at or above an HB9.

I think the problem is that with an HB9, it's very obvious what their value is. It's completely in your face. Even after reading your paragraph on this subject, I'm still not sure what it is that the guy has to offer in return. That he's confident? That he has goals? He has such a great personality? You could say that about a lot of guys. What do you have as a guy that is head and shoulders above OTHER guys, like this girl's looks is above her fellow women?

Money is an obvious answer, if you have it - being successful at a career or whatever. The only thing is, in today's world unfortunately women's earning power is increasing, while man's is decreasing. I've seen on the news that 80% of the job losses in this recession have affected men. In the past, a women needed a man and his cash to survive. The woman brought the T&A, and a man brought the economic viability. That's not really the case anymore, so I wonder when it comes to very, very beautiful women if the field is not tilted in their favor.

You say you shouldn't think of hot girls as having a lot of options, but then you say they have a lot of guys to go out with to choose from. Maybe none of them are quite what she's looking for, but who's to say what she is looking for? And most importantly, why do you think what you have to offer is closer to what she is looking for than any of the other countless guys she has to choose from?
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Old 11-05-2009, 10:59 AM   #10
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Quote:
I've been unhappy most of my life because I wanted a girl in my life and yet I never had one. Isn't it the logical conclusion that getting what one wants would make them happy?
One point with this one is that if you're insecure, you're still going to be insecure even after you get the girl. Which in many cases, means that you will unintenionally end up sabotaging your experience.
On the other hand, having a gorgeous girl on your arm can give you a BIG ego and confidence boost. But if you have a tendency toward insecure thinking, you will still probably blow it.

The other thing people will tell you is that you shouldn't depend on women to be happy. You should be happy within yourself, with your goals and your life. I agree with this to a large extent, but I can see the other side of the coin, too. Even Adam was lonely in the Garden of Eden. If there were no women, the world would be a lot more drab, wouldn't it?
And no matter what people say, a man is not living his life to his full extent if there are no women in it.
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Old 11-05-2009, 11:04 AM   #11
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lol.. they lack confidence and women hate men who lack confidence. its that simple..
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Old 11-05-2009, 11:31 AM   #12
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Tremendous post, Legolas.

As a lifelong "shy guy" I have made every single mistake on that list, many times. Up until a couple years ago, every bit of action I got was from women who approached me! It was a very passive way to live and resulted in long periods of nothing; to which I would reason that there must be something wrong with me.

I think being an introvert is ok, but you cant let it rule you and confine you. For me, the biggest thing that held me back from having the success I was truly capable of was HESITATION. That old saying, "Ye who hesitate, masturbate" is true. I would always see girls who were flirting with me; giving me the smiles and coy eyes, and I KNEW what was going on...but I hesitated! And of course, as fortune goes, you only get one shot at most opportunities. By the time I had figured out something to say, she was gone.

The problem with me and other socially shy guys is that we cant just shoot from the hip. Introverted guys have this barrier of self-consciousness that keeps them from just approaching and talking. They think too much; about what to say, how to say it, what she'll think, and what to do if it goes awry. They spend so much time mentally preparing themselves for the approach that the opportunities just vaporize while they are stalling. And let's face it, guys like us will make up every clever excuse in the book for not doing direct approaches, but the reality is we don't know what the fvck to say and we are STALLING.

These days I would consider myself successful with women, because I have what I want. But, even still, when I go out with my mates on the weekend, I find myself hesitant to approach. Why? Because like most introverts, once I got a gf, I left my approach work-ethic in the locker because I didnt "need" it anymore. Well, let me tell you that allowing that "ring rust" to accumulate is dangerous. It's like a fighter who hasnt stepped into the ring in years, yet still hits the heavy bag and mitts, and maybe spars once in a while. In the world of Game, this translates to a guy who reads and posts on the forums regularly, has a good understanding of Game and how to conduct himself with women, even holds frame in his relationship....but when he steps up to the approach plate he freezes.

Extroverts and social guys dont have this problem, because they just DO it. They naturally get their stimulation from other people and talking to anybody is the most natural thing in the world for them. Introverts, on the other hand, get their stimulation through their thoughts, hobbies, and a few close friends. There is nothing wrong with this per se, but it can become a crutch for a social deficit. Introverts hate approaching because it is fvcking uncomfortable for them. They dont know what to say, they are self-conscious as hell, and it just makes them anxious. Well, like anything, the only way to get over it and get better is to go out there and DO it. This does not mean you will magically rewire your brain to LIKE talking to strangers; that probably wont happen. But you can at least develop a level of comfort with approaching so you can shed some of your self-consciousness. I found a good way to do this is to talk to both men and women; cute girls and ugly girls. You'll start to see that pretty girls arent anything special---they just look good. In fact, they are often more insecure than the plain janes. Once you get comfortable just talking to average chicks, then you can move on to hotties and just remind yourself that they arent any sort of different species---they sit down to pee and have periods like every other chick.

The curse of the shy guy is paralysis by analysis. Introverts are often very intelligent and have some crazy deep thought processes; but as a result they think too much about stuff that doesnt need thought!! In fact, it's better if you DON'T think about an approach. Just DO it. Start small if you have to---talk to average or fat chicks. Then once you get the mindset rolling that it's not a big deal, you can approach the hotter girls with more confidence. And the great thing about confidence is that it builds on itself.
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Old 11-05-2009, 12:41 PM   #13
legolas
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Awesome questions Maxtro,

I'll try to address each one to the best of my ability

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxtro
Great thread legolas. I haven't looked at this forum in a few months and your thread was just what I needed to read. I've addressed each of your points with my feedback, mostly about issues that concern me.

Then what is the alternative? If you don't try to get girls to like you then how are you supposed to get anything?

Too often there are situations where I'm with a girl and I can't think of anything 'cool' to talk about. So I regrettably get up and leave. I'm worried about being seen as a boring guy which leads into #3.

Let me address both questions into one. What I'm talking about is a simple mindset shift or a shift in focus. When you want a girl and you're focusing on impressing her or focusing on making her like you, you're basically putting yourself in the seller position. You are trying to "sell" yourself to the girl. What's the biggest problem with that? Well first of all it makes you look weak and wimpy, because essentially you'd do anything to get the girl.

The alternative is to adopt the "buyer" mindset, which may be hard at first. Adopting the "buyer" mindset requires that you make yourself a list of 3-4 top qualities you want in a girl. These should ONLY be personality traits since you will automatically screen out the ones with physical features you don't like. Then, you go out with the mindset of talking to all girls that you're attracted to and only seeing if she fits those criteria.

For example, let's say your top trait is a girl who's independent. When she mentions anything that hints at her being independent, (for example she took a trip to Turkey by herself) your ears should perk up and you immediately should start paying more attention. You IMMEDIATELY reward her with more attention and more questions whereas up to that point you were only just casually chatting. You also might say "Wow, so you're really independent!! I really like that about you. Let's hang out more." Now, not only do you have a good reason to get her number, but also she feels good about it because you saw a unique quality in her and not just her pretty face, and her boobs. Essentially instead of thinking about "impressing" her think about "rewarding" her for being the kind of girl you want. You also come off as a guy who has standards.

Quote:
That is my number one issue. I believe that I have no value. I have no friends and I never do anything cool. On Halloween I was sitting at home playing video games when when everybody else at college was at parties. Why would anybody want to be with me? My confidence is non-existent.

Realizing your own value has a lot to do with realizing your unique traits. By the way, there is nothing wrong with staying home and playing video games. Essentially that's also what I did, but I was with friends and we had an AWESOME time. I appreciate the quality of time I'm spending not the quality of time someone else MIGHT be spending.

One of the most important things I've done in realizing my value was to do an inventory of my talents and my passions in life. There's a book called Strengths Finder 2.0 that can help you with that, but for me it was more a matter of seeing how specifically did I contribute to the world. I realized my main skill was to understand how things worked and break them down into pieces I could explain to others. Once you have a list of your unique talents, then it's a matter of brainstorming ways you can use them to give value to the world. That's also a mindset shift by the way. Instead of trying to get value from others (selfish) you figure out ways to give value back to the world.

Quote:
I admit that I do think that way. How could I not? I've been unhappy most of my life because I wanted a girl in my life and yet I never had one. Isn't it the logical conclusion that getting what one wants would make them happy? For me it's deeply connected connected to my confidence. The fact that I can't get a girl really hurts. Once I do get one the part of myself that is calling me a loser will die. I'll start to like myself.

So this is your other main problem you have. When you associate being happy with getting a girlfriend, you're really asking for trouble. You see, women want to have fun and feel good. That's it, aside from bearing children and raising them. When you want her to bring fun and happiness to you when she's looking to you to bring her fun and happiness, you have two people who are very confused and in perpetual state of limbo. As the man, it's up to you to build a lifestyle that makes you happy without the need for women. You do this by having goals and dreams and things you want to achieve in life and going after them. Then while in this journey, when you meet girls that you like, you invite them to be a part of this journey. It really starts with you though and what you want.

Quote:
Another issue that I am dealing with, though probably not in the way that you expressed.

It is very hard for me to express my sexuality in social situations. I cannot tell when it is appropriate to do so. This makes flirting and joking about sex very difficult.

It mainly comes down to a lack of experience and having no confidence in the area. I'm also afraid that talking about sex will offend the girl I'm talking to.

First of all experience is overrated. You can get all the basic knowledge you need by reading a few good books on the subject and the rest by asking the girl what she likes (NEVER assume that you know) and by experimenting. A good one is Daniel Rose's Sex God Method. Second, bringing up sex in social situations is a tricky subject. It requires social calibration and good language.

Most of the time when you bring up the subject, people will see your reactions. If you act unsure, they will assume you're a virgin or inexperienced. If you act like you know what you're talking about then they'll assume you're the man. Flirting and joking about sex will require A LOT of innuendo. Innuendo is all about talking about sex without actually mentioning it. Think of jokes like "that's what she said" from The Office, or if anything suggests or hints at the sexual act like penetration, sucking, bursting, popping, etc. You can say these things and people will understand the dual meaning. Just do a google search on innuendo and watch some "that's what she said" jokes on YouTube to get started.

For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-wf2pP7T0Y

Pay attention to phrases like "wow that is really hard", "you think you can go all day long?" "you already did me", "I can't stay on to pf you 24/7" etc
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Old 11-05-2009, 12:56 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zekko
I think I'm a pretty high value guy, but I still struggle with this one a bit. I think the key is when you say "really hot women". So I'll assume you're talking about at or above an HB9.

I think the problem is that with an HB9, it's very obvious what their value is. It's completely in your face. Even after reading your paragraph on this subject, I'm still not sure what it is that the guy has to offer in return. That he's confident? That he has goals? He has such a great personality? You could say that about a lot of guys. What do you have as a guy that is head and shoulders above OTHER guys, like this girl's looks is above her fellow women?

Money is an obvious answer, if you have it - being successful at a career or whatever. The only thing is, in today's world unfortunately women's earning power is increasing, while man's is decreasing. I've seen on the news that 80% of the job losses in this recession have affected men. In the past, a women needed a man and his cash to survive. The woman brought the T&A, and a man brought the economic viability. That's not really the case anymore, so I wonder when it comes to very, very beautiful women if the field is not tilted in their favor.

You say you shouldn't think of hot girls as having a lot of options, but then you say they have a lot of guys to go out with to choose from. Maybe none of them are quite what she's looking for, but who's to say what she is looking for? And most importantly, why do you think what you have to offer is closer to what she is looking for than any of the other countless guys she has to choose from?

Well my friend if you think this way than you're really deep in the social programming Matrix. I'm gonna have to work really hard to unplug you

First of all why do really hot women have such high value? Because they're in demand?? WRONG!! It's purely biological. A beautiful woman has higher chance of passing on her genes because we associate beauty with health subconsciously. Now if their value was purely biological, then all they would need to do is find a guy to have babies with and then get along with their lives. You're forgetting that women have needs, just like you and I.

A man's value is primarily in how closely his traits match up to her needs. I don't need to remind you that the really "hot" girls are also pretty insecure about themselves. I've seen it myself where you start to push up against that insecurity and she immediately starts to crave validation. This is the main play of pick-up game. You neg her to take her off her "pedestal" and she will be attracted to you because she will want that validation back. Then you give it to her piece by piece as you escalate to the bedroom. It's fine for ONS but if you want a gf, it's a horrible strategy.

Anyway, I digress. Think about a hot woman with brains or a successful career. What kind of man would she want in her life? Would she want a player? Would she want a rich guy who throws his money around in lavish ways? Or would she want a guy who's in a mission that is way beyond himself and he's passionate and completely dedicated to that mission? She's craving a STRONG man but it doesn't matter where that strength comes from.

Instead of looking at value in terms of high value vs low value, look at in terms of needs. If you need a car to take you to work every day and be reliable and easily serviceable but you don't care about social status would you choose a Toyota or a Mercedes? Even though you could afford the Mercedes, and 100 guys will tell you that it has higher value than the Toyota, you would go with the Toyota because it fulfills your needs better and thus would have much higher value and appeal to you.

Women are unique creatures just like you and me. They're not just a body with boobs, a pretty face, a nice ass and a pvssy. Just like you're not just a body with a d1ck attached in front. You have unique qualities and thus you have unique needs wants and desires. Just because a girl has a lot of suitors, it doesn't mean that they will all fulfill her specific needs. If you think about it just in terms of getting laid, then yes she has a lot of choice. I'm not saying that you have a better shot than some other guy, I'm saying IF she fits your needs AND you fit her needs then you have a better chance than some other guy who may be better looking than you but doesn't quite fit her needs. The idea is to NOT discount yourself and assume you can't fulfill her needs just because she's hotter than 90% of other girls out there. That said, most of these girls are just not worth it. If you want to go after them, you still have to find out what their needs are and play to that.
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Old 11-05-2009, 01:53 PM   #15
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legolas... quality advice from a guy that clearly 'gets it' and can write based on real-world experiences. I'm pretty sure at one point or another in my DJ career I've made every single one of those mistakes.

The hardest one to understand just by someone TELLING you is about not letting your guard down once you get the girl. I had to live that mistake in order to internalize it, despite having read it many times.

I spent years figuring out how to attract girls that I found beautiful.

Nobody told me what to do once I got them.

Oh well, you live and you learn!
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Old 11-05-2009, 02:23 PM   #16
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Question for you guys.

I've learned many things from different sources and I always wished there was like one book or products that taught it all. If there was a product out there that addressed your specific needs and frustrations, what would it teach you?
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Old 11-05-2009, 03:25 PM   #17
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Quote:
First of all why do really hot women have such high value? Because they're in demand?? WRONG!! It's purely biological.
Nevertheless that high value is very real. And people of equal values tend to hook up with each other, studies have shown that. The question is, what makes a male high value? There are obvious answers like money, looks, leadership, social status, etc. but it's a more complicated equation than for the female.

Quote:
A man's value is primarily in how closely his traits match up to her needs. I don't need to remind you that the really "hot" girls are also pretty insecure about themselves
Isn't it true also that a woman's value is based on how her traits match up to HIS needs? I know I am so pleased with my current girlfriend because she meets my needs on so many levels.
I don't think you're speaking too highly of the male here, if you say his value just comes from matching up to her needs. A man should have some intrinsic value of his own, wouldn't you say? Like maybe they are desireable because they are strong, can fix things, can scare away strangers, tall enough to reach something off the top shelf? Something?


As far as this idea about the hotter the woman, the more insecure she is, I keep hearing that here, but I'm not so sure that's been my experience. Most of the REALLY hot girls I've known (and I meal like at or near HB9 or above) have pretty much thought that they could get any guy they wanted, whether he was currently taken or not.

The "negging" idea works because it's so different from their day to day experience of being praised for their beauty that it throws them off, not really because they're insecure. They're only insecure in that they know they have high value, and they don't want to lose it. The less attractive girls know they're not attractive, so they don't have to worry about it. They can just go have another Big Mac.

Quote:
If you think about it just in terms of getting laid, then yes she has a lot of choice.
I was going to mention this. All this business about being able to get HB9s depends to a large extent what you want with them. If you just want to bang them or go out on a few dates with them, sure pretty much anyone could do it given the right attitude and circumstance. But if you want to KEEP an HB9, that's a different case entirely.

I wouldn't even WANT to marry an HB9 or try to keep one. Because as long as they remain that hot they are going to be hit on by guys constantly. If they find one that appeals to them (and they are bound to, since there are so many that approach them), then they will branch swing. Even if I was a rich guy I would be leery of them. ESPECIALLY if I was a rich guy, because they can divorce rich guys and take half their sh!t. But again, if you just want to bang them or have a little fun, then they're great for that.
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Old 11-06-2009, 03:43 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just a Shot Away
One of the best posts I have ever read here. Your advice and analysis really hits home. I may even try to read a trashy romance novel just to see if it helps me understand why women do what they do (since it's still a complete mystery to me.), lol. Even though your name references Lord of the Rings, you still sound like you know what you're talking about. =P

This should have its own link or at least sticky'd.

Wow, that is saying something - especially you've been here since last month. Seriously bro, just come clean.
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Old 11-06-2009, 07:06 AM   #19
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I claim that this thread was one of the BEST ones I ever read after coming here.
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Old 11-06-2009, 07:09 PM   #20
legolas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by San Jose California
I've never had a gf and I realize it's not she likes you and that's it. Idk what I'll do after that. Any ideas?

Of course not. You've got to keep her on her toes. You my friend are still young (I see age 20 but who knows) and as such your main focus now should be to explore life. If you're in college, try taking some classes that might interest you so you can discover what you like. Then, you just follow your dreams and she supports you while you do the same for her (if she even has any dreams) By this I mean, what would you like to eventually accomplish? What would you like to offer the world? If you don't know that's fine, again you're still young. Strive to live life to the fullest and play by your own rules not society's rules.
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