Hello Friend,

If this is your first visit to SoSuave, I would advise you to START HERE.

It will be the most efficient use of your time.

And you will learn everything you need to know to become a huge success with women.

Thank you for visiting and have a great day!

The Importance of Perspective

STR8UP

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Although I don't pretend to have all of the answers when it comes to women, I think I have obtained a pretty good grasp of the way things work when it comes to the mating game.

When I first found sosuave it was like wisdom pouring down from the heavens, purging me of the toxic sludge that had been building up in my psyche since I was a wee tot. It was quite refreshing, because although I had long since discovered the "secrets" of money, the secrets of women still eluded me. When I was growing up I was not taught the ways of women. It was like everything was now coming together.

At first I was like a sponge soaking up the vast amounts of information, filling in many of the pieces of the puzzle that had been keeping me from understanding my mistakes I was making when dealing with women. The words of Pook and Anti-Dump (among others) rang true and I knew i was on the path to enlightenment.

As time went on I made it a point to observe women's behavior through the stories of others and through my own experiences. I was fascinated by the psychology behind male/female interactions, and I would deliberately place myself in situations in order to more closely observe certain behaviors from a btter vantage point.

During this time I was also going through changes in my life. I worked as a bartender through my mid 20's, but dabbled in real estate and business until becoming fully self employed before age 30.

By the time I reached my mid 30's my business dealings were beginning to pay off. I found myself transitioning from the guy who women wanted to marry for his ambitious personality, to the guy women wanted to fukk for his alpha swagger, to the guy women wanted little to do when he faced an extremely challenging time in his life.

Having been both rich and poor, happy and depressed, slightly out of shape and fairly buff, a bartender and an entrepreneur, I had the privilege of experiencing both the best and the worst of human nature.

Which brings me to the point of this post....

Lately I have been getting frustrated. I feel like the kid in the Sixth Sense, like I can see stuff that other people can't see. It is as if I have seen things that I cannot "unsee". I feel as if I have outgrown sosuave. It's as if there exists some sort of dogma that men have adopted either due to the need to hold onto faith or more likely, a lack of perspective.

I have read some material written by guys from the PUA community who seem to corroborate many of my own observations of women.

I started thinking about this and came to the conclusion that only men who have been in the position of seeing women from many different angles have the perspective that allows them to know women for what they really are.

The only two things that seem to give men the proper perspective are-

1) Game

The guys who have the ABILITY to attract and bed many different women, from meek librarians to skanky bar trash, have witnessed women for what they are.

2) Wealth/Power

A corollary of game (or vice-versa) wealth and/or power has the potential to expose a man to an entirely different side of human nature.

What I propose is that unless you have seen women through the lens of wealth and power and/or "game", you haven't really seen women for who they really are.

I'm not trying to insult anyone here. It just seems like the guys who have seen women from many different angles have a much better perspective from which to formulate opinions on the nature of women.

Thoughts?
 

lookyoung

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This forum has really gone downhill over the last year. Even the mature man forum has gone down the toilet.
 

ketostix

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Not to say your wrong Str8up but just to play devils advocate, a lot of naturals who have good game and a lot of experience and success with woman don't all profess the same ideas as PUA's. A lot of them couldn't tell you a thing about women. Also there's a lot of parroting and BS in the PU community. Also some wealthy guys are AFC's and have varying success with women.

Point is wealth and game doesn't make a person necessarily have a lot of discernment, the most experience, insight or knowledge of women. I think some of us here have had times of money and spent time with guys who had money. I actually learned a lot about women and their dark nature after being in college for several years and from believe it or not hanging out in church groups more than I learned in all the time I spent in bars and clubs. Point is there's many ways people gain experience and people vary in their ability to see things for what they are.
 

STR8UP

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Only a self aware PUA or wealthy/powerful man will be able to relate his experiences with any degree of accuracy.

Fact is, some people don't care. They go with the flow without ever thinking about the mechanics. The ones who DO pay attention bring more valuable information to the table than even most scientific studies can provide.
 

ketostix

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For me peronally I have to say I didn't learn that much from PUA community. I had all ways thought about how women are and people are from a teenager. Most of what I learned was from trial and error and hard knocks. And by the tiem I found PUA forums I had a pretty good idea about what would work oand not work for me. Some of the PUA stuff agreed with my life experinces so I knew it was valid. But some of it did not, i.e. looks don't matter, age doesn't matter, wealth doesn't matter etc, and it was clear it was marketing hype and people all repeating the same thing someone else said even if they were a clueless virgin. Putting aside the marketing and the parroting, I spent time with PUA's and what I realized is they had a theory explaining everything about women and "solution", but it was all conjecture and speculation. Real life didn't work like they thought it did.

What the PUA forums did do was it took me from being virtually alone in my views of women to beng able to converse with a lot of guys who had similar views. Before all I had was what I was seeing with my own eyes and figure out vs. what every one and society wanted me to believe.

I guess where I'm going with this is there's this whole topic of women and attraction isn't cut and dry and is a lot of conjecture and speculation. It might be true that being able to pick up a lot of women and wealth are good indicators of accuracy. I just think there's many routes to arriving at the truth and the truth hasn't been totally figured out yet anyway.
 

Duffdog

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Interesting idea str8up,

Perspective is what makes this website what it is. It is filled with men and boys who don't have it together and collectively could not get laid if their life depended on it. I find it interesting that while I was already good with women, the ideas that this site has put forth have only allowed me to have way more than I ever wanted. Which begs the question: how many chics do you need?

When I go out to social events, it is easy to see which guys are the "customers" of the PUA websites and which guys are not. I could not imagine looking at women through the eyes of a guy who gets rejected all the time. It would be pure hell to me, knowing that this girl who just rejected me is going to get nailed by that attractive guy over there.

A couple weeks ago, I found myself in a big club in SF thinking: "What is with all these short, dorky guys around me trying to talk to the cute girls, they don't have a chance anyways..." then, after listening to what they were saying, I realized that some of them were PUA's who were trying some of the tactics I was reading about. I realized at that moment that I never want to be a pickup artist because that would mean that I would be associated with these guys, and thats not ok with me.

Perspective is key when thinking about women and life in general. A guy who gets girls all the time looks at a female and thinks-- "that chic is cute, I'm going to sleep with her tonight"

A PUA looks at the girl and thinks:
Ok- theres a target. What's her rating? check. Moving in with strategies 1 through 3 available, strategy 4 in case I get stuck. Opener...check, response....check. Next step, demonstrate high value with corresponding neg hit....check, continuing to Isolation phase. Isolation phase activated, beginning Kino... and on and on and on until a hot guy comes and takes her away.

PUA guy posts on website about how strategies did not work correctly and attends training sessions while natural guy fvcks girl at her house.

Life is about perspective.
 

Truebrit

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STR8UP said:
Although I don't pretend to have all of the answers when it comes to women, I think I have obtained a pretty good grasp of the way things work when it comes to the mating game.

When I first found sosuave it was like wisdom pouring down from the heavens, purging me of the toxic sludge that had been building up in my psyche since I was a wee tot. It was quite refreshing, because although I had long since discovered the "secrets" of money, the secrets of women still eluded me. When I was growing up I was not taught the ways of women. It was like everything was now coming together.

At first I was like a sponge soaking up the vast amounts of information, filling in many of the pieces of the puzzle that had been keeping me from understanding my mistakes I was making when dealing with women. The words of Pook and Anti-Dump (among others) rang true and I knew i was on the path to enlightenment.

As time went on I made it a point to observe women's behavior through the stories of others and through my own experiences. I was fascinated by the psychology behind male/female interactions, and I would deliberately place myself in situations in order to more closely observe certain behaviors from a btter vantage point.

During this time I was also going through changes in my life. I worked as a bartender through my mid 20's, but dabbled in real estate and business until becoming fully self employed before age 30.

By the time I reached my mid 30's my business dealings were beginning to pay off. I found myself transitioning from the guy who women wanted to marry for his ambitious personality, to the guy women wanted to fukk for his alpha swagger, to the guy women wanted little to do when he faced an extremely challenging time in his life.

Having been both rich and poor, happy and depressed, slightly out of shape and fairly buff, a bartender and an entrepreneur, I had the privilege of experiencing both the best and the worst of human nature.

Which brings me to the point of this post....

Lately I have been getting frustrated. I feel like the kid in the Sixth Sense, like I can see stuff that other people can't see. It is as if I have seen things that I cannot "unsee". I feel as if I have outgrown sosuave. It's as if there exists some sort of dogma that men have adopted either due to the need to hold onto faith or more likely, a lack of perspective.

I have read some material written by guys from the PUA community who seem to corroborate many of my own observations of women.

I started thinking about this and came to the conclusion that only men who have been in the position of seeing women from many different angles have the perspective that allows them to know women for what they really are.

The only two things that seem to give men the proper perspective are-

1) Game

The guys who have the ABILITY to attract and bed many different women, from meek librarians to skanky bar trash, have witnessed women for what they are.

2) Wealth/Power

A corollary of game (or vice-versa) wealth and/or power has the potential to expose a man to an entirely different side of human nature.

What I propose is that unless you have seen women through the lens of wealth and power and/or "game", you haven't really seen women for who they really are.

I'm not trying to insult anyone here. It just seems like the guys who have seen women from many different angles have a much better perspective from which to formulate opinions on the nature of women.

Thoughts?
This is your best post I have read.
 

Truebrit

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Duffdog said:
Interesting idea str8up,

Perspective is what makes this website what it is. It is filled with men and boys who don't have it together and collectively could not get laid if their life depended on it. I find it interesting that while I was already good with women, the ideas that this site has put forth have only allowed me to have way more than I ever wanted. Which begs the question: how many chics do you need?

When I go out to social events, it is easy to see which guys are the "customers" of the PUA websites and which guys are not. I could not imagine looking at women through the eyes of a guy who gets rejected all the time. It would be pure hell to me, knowing that this girl who just rejected me is going to get nailed by that attractive guy over there.

A couple weeks ago, I found myself in a big club in SF thinking: "What is with all these short, dorky guys around me trying to talk to the cute girls, they don't have a chance anyways..." then, after listening to what they were saying, I realized that some of them were PUA's who were trying some of the tactics I was reading about. I realized at that moment that I never want to be a pickup artist because that would mean that I would be associated with these guys, and thats not ok with me.

Perspective is key when thinking about women and life in general. A guy who gets girls all the time looks at a female and thinks-- "that chic is cute, I'm going to sleep with her tonight"

A PUA looks at the girl and thinks:
Ok- theres a target. What's her rating? check. Moving in with strategies 1 through 3 available, strategy 4 in case I get stuck. Opener...check, response....check. Next step, demonstrate high value with corresponding neg hit....check, continuing to Isolation phase. Isolation phase activated, beginning Kino... and on and on and on until a hot guy comes and takes her away.

PUA guy posts on website about how strategies did not work correctly and attends training sessions while natural guy fvcks girl at her house.

Life is about perspective.
A PUA - or any guy that has game - does three simple things -

1. Is not outcome dependant.
2. De-personalises the process.
3. Has an abundance mentality.

It obviously helps enormously if you actually ENJOY the game.
 
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horaholic

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That is an interesting perspective in and of itself, Danger.

To Str8up, obviously, you have more perspective because you've witnessed things from so many different angles, but what does that mean, exactly? It means you're more well rounded, yet maybe not quite as specialized as people who have gotten good from one vantagepoint. For example, if a poor dude is pulling more ass than a toilet seat, he has a system that works for poor dudes, but might not necessarily work that well for rich guys. That is the kind of guy that I need to examine, cuz I'm a starving musician. And, rich guys that have trouble, might want to watch other moneyed guys closely to examine their methods, as well. Yet, at the same time, we should check out different class styles to learn even more also.

Of course, there are common denominators with any status, but I'm sure there are many differences, as well. Me, and my crowd, do the broke scumbag, caveman who doesnt give a fvck, and isnt afraid to do outlandish shyt to get a laugh, method. Do you guys think a rich, classy guy could pull that off? Maybe it would make him more attractive, as he would stand out from the other guys like that. On the other side of the coin, how could a broke scumbag guy stand out from the other cavemen, by employing some tricks that classy guys do, just to throw off the target, and stand out in a different way? Str8up, you might be very good at answering that question. What do you think?

And Im not talking about throwing money around, needless to say, hopefully. Im talking more about attitude, and poise, and conversational topics.
 

Duffdog

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Truebrit said:
A PUA - or any guy that has game - does three simple things -

1. Is not outcome dependant.-- I seriously doubt that any sane person would believe that. Every guys wants a supermodel and tons of money, but not every guy can have that. Trying to say "I don't have it because I didn't want it anyways" is lame. Yeah, sure, I don't have a supermodel and 5 yachts because I never really wanted them...only superficial people think like that!
2. De-personalises the process.-- Again, no actual person will believe that a male doesn't want to feel desired by a female. You can't be totally detached and connect with people, you must put yourself out there and be vulnerable to pain or you get nothing. You would be hard pressed to find an example of a PUA who hooks up with females and doesn't get anything from it.
3. Has an abundance mentality.-- Finally, this is closer to reality, but having an abundance "mentality" and actually having abundance are two different things. Its like having the mentality that you are a 10 without actually being one. Would you believe a fat chic if she said that she has 5 boyfriends?

It obviously helps enormously if you actually ENJOY the game.--I am starting to think that "the game" is a big joke.
word
 

horaholic

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Being non-outcome dependant doesnt mean you dont WANT those things, it just means if a chick turns you down, or flakes on you, you dont let it get to you, or negatively affect you. We wouldnt get pissed if one of our guy friends cancels on us, so we shouldn't get pissed that a girl does. (not to say its acceptable behaviour) Abundance mentality definitely helps us not be outcome dependant. It simply means not letting negativity get you down. Its a good rule for life in general.
 

sodbuster

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Unfortunately, you can't unlearn what you have learned-women were SO much more interesting before I found their dark side. before, when I had a GF, I was happy-now, I'm waiting to see how she'll screw it up.
 

STR8UP

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Let me clarify something. I'm not saying that you have to be a PUA student. I'm saying that you have to have experienced what it was like to create major league attraction from women. Doesn't matter if it comes naturally or if it is a learned behavior; only the guys who know what it is like to be able to either seduce women or have women throw themselves at him really knows women.

I don't claim to be any sort of PUA, but I have experienced what it is like to have a whole room full of women at a party jockeying for position to be the one who ended up in bed with me at the end of the night. The bathroom strategics, the sharp words, the subtle glances, the not so subtle hand slap......until you experience something like that you really don't know women.

The Wealth/Power factor is often intertwined with the ability to attract women (it can actually GIVE you "game"), so these things also allow you to see a side of women a poor or middle class guy never sees. Women respond differently to the guy with swagger, regardless of where it originates from.

Another thing is when you are a judgmental type person (and we all judge, but most people OVERLY judge and wear it on their sleeve) women will relate to you differently than if you come off as open and accepting. The guy who understands the true nature of women is given the key to their soul, because he no longer feels the need to vilify many of the things that they do. Doesn't mean that he won't judge them (and thus often rule them out as dating prospects) but it does mean that he doesn't project an air of negativity that makes women put on a huge act in front of him. He's allowed to see "behind the curtain".

I just see a lot of guys who get their head halfway out of the sand when they learn about some of the things that make women tick, but are never able to REALLY know women because of never having been in a position to see them from all angles.

I also have the feeling that some guys get a little peek of reality, but refuse to go down the rabbit hole for fear of what they will find. When you truly see women for what they are it can be a shock to the system. When you or your friends bang the married chick who practically throws the pu$$y at you, when you learn that your FB has several other guys buying her dinners, movies, etc. while YOU are the one fukking her without spending a penny (and she's eating out of the palm of your hand) it allows you to see just how cunning. manipulative, and opportunistic women really are.

It was brought up in another thread about how this is kind of like hiring an employee for a job. It's actaully VERY much like hiring an employee. And that's another thing where the wealth/power factor gives you a unique perspective on human behavior in general. You learn that no matter how good someone looks on paper, only time will tell if they are the real deal. People will lie, cheat, and steal to try to get ahead in life in all aspects. Some people just don't have the POV to see it for what it is.

horaholic said:
To Str8up, obviously, you have more perspective because you've witnessed things from so many different angles, but what does that mean, exactly? It means you're more well rounded, yet maybe not quite as specialized as people who have gotten good from one vantagepoint. For example, if a poor dude is pulling more ass than a toilet seat, he has a system that works for poor dudes, but might not necessarily work that well for rich guys. That is the kind of guy that I need to examine, cuz I'm a starving musician. And, rich guys that have trouble, might want to watch other moneyed guys closely to examine their methods, as well. Yet, at the same time, we should check out different class styles to learn even more also.
Keep in mind that this isn't about GETTING girls, it's about KNOWING them.

Of course, there are common denominators with any status, but I'm sure there are many differences, as well. Me, and my crowd, do the broke scumbag, caveman who doesnt give a fvck, and isnt afraid to do outlandish shyt to get a laugh, method. Do you guys think a rich, classy guy could pull that off?
This is a different topic altogether, but I know that women respond to MANY different types of "game" whether natural or otherwise. It's important that your style is congruent with your image, so no, I don't think it's feasible for one guy to have two radically different M.O.'s

On the other side of the coin, how could a broke scumbag guy stand out from the other cavemen, by employing some tricks that classy guys do, just to throw off the target, and stand out in a different way? Str8up, you might be very good at answering that question. What do you think?
And Im not talking about throwing money around, needless to say, hopefully. Im talking more about attitude, and poise, and conversational topics.[/quote]

The thing with the wealth/power card is that women are responding to the alpha swagger that comes from having one or both of these. Aside from demonstrating value with words I don't know how you would go about employing some of this.

Keep in mind that women respond strongly to most anything that pulls on their emotions. Chicks get starry eyed when I talk about the places I have traveled to, especially if I hit on one that they have never been to but really want to visit. When I see that spark I latch on and describe it like it's the most magical place on earth. Any guy can employ this if he has had some travel experience.

sodbuster said:
Unfortunately, you can't unlearn what you have learned-women were SO much more interesting before I found their dark side. before, when I had a GF, I was happy-now, I'm waiting to see how she'll screw it up.
I've said it before- this knowledge is a HUGE burden, but ultimately I think it is beneficial.

The trick is to NOT allow yourself to become bitter. I'm not bitter at all. A little disappointed still that things aren't really the way I grew up to believe them to be, but if anything it has allowed me to LET GO of the resentment that I had for women when I thought they were being b!tches for not responding to my nice-guy persona.
 

STR8UP

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Danger said:
This is a Christian girl mind you....and that did not stop her from bearing false witness to protect her from an image of sluttiness.
I won't go into my opinions about religion, but lets just say that most religious people are a lot like women in many ways.....

Women are like icebergs.....you only see 10% and the rest is well below the surface.
Gonna have to borrow this for my new sig.
 

RedPill

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Girls just wanna have fuh-un.

STR8UP said:
Thoughts?
Rewind for a moment in your mind's eye and replay in reverse every personal ad, every social networking profile, and every woman you've ever met's description of themselves. Do you see a pattern?

"I just love having FUN!!"

Hobbies: fun

"My girls and I go out and have fun."

"I just, you know, really like being fun."

Fun.

What is this magical object, this abstract concept so simply wrapped into a neat three-letter word that is used universally by the feminine to describe who they are and what they want? The answer to the unanswerable, how precisely is fun created and exchanged?

Fun is the single best hidden device in womankind's arsenal of social conventions.

To you and I, fun is railing that hot party girl from behind. To her, it's getting railed by that guy with the Ferrari. To you fun is eating a well-prepared steak. To her it's telling her friends she ate a cranberry chicken salad at that trendy restaurant.

He who does the payin' does the sayin'. And so it goes with women. The men with game are those who have learned not to demonize female nature nor fall victim to its fickle quest for limitless provisioning.

Fun is code. Womaneze for the means to stimulate. Social stimulation is sexual stimulation, and it's the key to the vault. She gets off knowing you have the ability to play her, the status to contain her, and the resources to elevate her in the pantheon of pampered pinkhole.

Perspective results from observing these dynamics in action, accepting them, and learning to run with them. The enlightened man provides fun for them within his means.

The foolish man does so at all costs.
 

wjh

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RedPill said:
Rewind for a moment in your mind's eye and replay in reverse every personal ad, every social networking profile, and every woman you've ever met's description of themselves. Do you see a pattern?

"I just love having FUN!!"

Hobbies: fun

"My girls and I go out and have fun."

"I just, you know, really like being fun."

Fun.

What is this magical object, this abstract concept so simply wrapped into a neat three-letter word that is used universally by the feminine to describe who they are and what they want? The answer to the unanswerable, how precisely is fun created and exchanged?

Fun is the single best hidden device in womankind's arsenal of social conventions.

To you and I, fun is railing that hot party girl from behind. To her, it's getting railed by that guy with the Ferrari. To you fun is eating a well-prepared steak. To her it's telling her friends she ate a cranberry chicken salad at that trendy restaurant.

He who does the payin' does the sayin'. And so it goes with women. The men with game are those who have learned not to demonize female nature nor fall victim to its fickle quest for limitless provisioning.

Fun is code. Womaneze for the means to stimulate. Social stimulation is sexual stimulation, and it's the key to the vault. She gets off knowing you have the ability to play her, the status to contain her, and the resources to elevate her in the pantheon of pampered pinkhole.

Perspective results from observing these dynamics in action, accepting them, and learning to run with them. The enlightened man provides fun for them within his means.

The foolish man does so at all costs.
Absolutely f-cking brilliant.
 

Luthor Rex

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horaholic said:
Being non-outcome dependant doesnt mean you dont WANT those things, it just means if a chick turns you down, or flakes on you, you dont let it get to you, or negatively affect you.
I believe the phrase is "preferred indifferent".
 

Truebrit

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"Perspective results from observing these dynamics in action, accepting them, and learning to run with them. The enlightened man provides fun for them within his means."

This is the key. Its ACCEPTANCE of the way things are (which also come from maturity and trial and error) rather than crying that things should be differant. Thats why its called a game - don't try and beat city-hall on it by changing the rules, just accept it for what it is.
 

STR8UP

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That was a top shelf post, Red.

I think it can be broken down further by saying that women are looking for an emotional rush, which of course, equals fun.

Only men who have witnessed how women behave when their raw emotions have been triggered have proper perspective.

The guy with natural or learned game, and the guy who exudes the aura of power have witnessed this firsthand. Women behave in a completely different way when they are drawn in by a man.

As a matter of fact, I would even say that money in and of itself has very little to do with it. When I reached the stage in my life where I was "ballin'", women could smell it on me. They didn't have to see my house or car or know what I do. I became a gravitational field that drew women in.

When you get women into such a heightened emotional state they will do things that go against their conditioning. THAT is when you get to see what they are truly capable of. That's when they do the things that they don't even tell their best friend about.
 

SXS

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As a matter of fact, I would even say that money in and of itself has very little to do with it. When I reached the stage in my life where I was "ballin'", women could smell it on me. They didn't have to see my house or car or know what I do. I became a gravitational field that drew women in.
Then you have so many women so why you whine so much about them ?
 
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