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Identity Crisis

Rollo Tomassi

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Below is a response I gave to a guy I'm counseling at present and I thought it sufficiently insightfull to post here in regards to a pretty common topic that comes up here. I think you'll agree.

Identity Crisis


It is possible to identify with women without compromising yourself?


If it is a conscious effort on the guy's part, no.

You bring up a good topic though, obviously when I refer to 'identifying' with a girl, this could use some explanation. What exactly is 'identifying' with a woman? The root of this word is 'identity', meaning who you are and what characteristics, traits and interests constitute your individual personality. 'Identity', in a way, is a pretty subjective and esoteric term - kind of like trying to define what art is - it can be argued that 'identity' is what you make of it. My field of specialization in psychology is personality studies and I can tell you there are a lot of theories and interpretations of what constitutes identity. However, one article that is agreed upon almost universally is that identity and personality are never static and are malable and changeable by influencing variables and conditions. A very pronounced illustration of this would be soldiers retuning from combat with post traumatic stress disorder, a very identifiable and verifiable form of psychosis. These men are changed individuals and their identities are altered from the time they were subject to the psychological rigors of warfare to returning back to a normalized life. Some have the resiliencne to adjust their personalities back to a somewhat norlamized state, others sadly do not. Yet in each case the change was influenced by conditions and environment.

Likewise, most young men are subject to their own set of personal conditions and environments, and their personalities and identities reflect this accordingly. The guy who's naturally "lucky with the ladies" is going to reflect this in his identity. The young man who doesn't receive regular female attention for whatever reasons is going to manifest this condition in his identity. The guy who is focused on his own ambitions is going to reflect this in his own personality as well, but for all, when conditions are such that they feel deprived of certain experiences in their own life, this creates a conflict between a former identity and the altering of, or forming of a new one to meet the need for this experience. Couple this with the natural chemical/hormonal deisire for sexual experience and you can see how powerful an influence deprivation becomes.

Far too many young men maintain the notion that for them to receive the female intimacy they desire they should necessarily become more like the target of their affection in their own personality. In essence, to mold their own identify to better match the girl they think will best satisfy this need. So we see examples of men compromising their self-interests to better accomodate the interests of the woman they desire to facilitate this need for intimacy (i.e. sex). We all know the old adage women are all too aware of, "Guys will do anything to get laid" and this is certainly not limited to altering their individual identities and even conditions to better facilitate this. It's all too common an example to see men select a college based on the available women at that college rather than academic merit to fit their own ambitions or even choose a college to better maintain a pre-existing relationship that a woman has chosen and the young man follows. In order to justify these choices he will alter his identity and personality by creating rationales and new mental schema to validate this 'decision' for himself. It becomes an ego protection for a decision he, on some level, knows was made for him.

This is just one glaring example of this identification, but thousands more subtle ones exist that men (and women) pass off as social mores and contrivances. The guy stuck in the 'Friend Zone' who got the LJBF ("lets just be freinds") line when he attempted to become intimate with his target, will happily listen to her drone on for hours on the phone in order to find out how better to alter himself to fit her conditions for intimate acceptability. He will readily "change his mind" about even his own personal beliefs if it will better fit what he perceives as her criteria for compatibility with her. This is the compromise of identity - to fundamentally and voluntarily alter one's own personality to achieve the acceptability of another. When we are directly and overtly faced with this sort of challenge to our beliefs we naturally recoil - you are your own person and would resist were your employer or parents to tell you how you should vote (political belief), but when it comes to personality and sexual/intimacy interests, and done voluntarily it's suprising to see the limits of what men (and to an extent women) will do. Men will entertain the idea that a long distance relationship (LDR) is a desirable arrangement even if intimacy has never occured because the potential of that intimacy is perceived. These same guys will espouse every reasoning they can conceive as to why their "relationship is different" and that they 'believe' that "love conquers all" only to come full circle when he or she 'cheats' or breaks off the relation and the man comes back to his prior (though he thinks new) understanding that LDRs are in fact a bad prospect. His identity changed and then changed again to accomodate his conditions.

And it's not that he never truly changed or had the belief in the first place. Were these guys to take a polygraph they would indeed pass when asked if this was what they truly accepted as truth. Men will do what most easily solves a problem and in this he is only following the tenants of pragmatism. "I need sex + women have the sex I want + I must discover what women want to give me sex + ask women + women want X = I will do X to get sex and alter my own identity in order to better facilitate X." It should be this easy, but that's rarely the case since more often than not women are unaware of what X really is, or X is subject to constant change depending on her own conditions.

Now, after all of this, is it possible that a man and a woman may in fact share genuine common interests? Of course. You may indeed find a perfectly beautiful woman that enjoys Nascar or Hockey as much as you. You may find a woman you're attracted to who genuinely shares your passion for deep sea fishing. It's not uncommon to share common interests, it's when you alter your interest to better facilitate a connection that you force it. Making this determination of genuine interests and created interests is the hair that needs splitting. I've personally counseled guys who have literally changed careers to be in a better place to proposition a girl they fancied. I know men who've moved thousands of miles to live closer to women who've never reciprocated their interest in them, yet they continued to attempt to identify themselves with her. I know 65 year old men in 40 year marriages, who even after intimacy was resolved years ago with the woman, are still attempting to identify with their wives because they've internalized this identity compromise as a standard means to getting sex from her. Her expectations of him have become his identity and at 65 this mental scheme has become so ego invested that no amount of shedding light on his conditions will ever convince him anything to the opposite.

The most ironic thing about this 'Identity Crisis' is that the least attractive thing to most women is a man who is willing to compromise any part of his identity to placate to her, much less a wholesale sell out of it. Women are naturally attracted to that masculine independence as it represents a very strong indication of security and the potential to provide that security to her (and any children she may have). Women don't want a man who'll "do everything she says" because this sends the message that this man can be bought with even the prospect of a sexual encounter. Why would that indicate anything more than iinsecurity and a lack of confidence? Women want to be told "No", and constantly test a man's resolve to say this to her (i.e a sh!t test) in order to affirm that she's made the right choice (even in marriage) of a guy who'll put his sexual impulse (knowing full-well how powerful it is with men) on hold to hold fast to his own self-interest, beliefs and ambitions. It covertly communicates to a woman that his goals and determination trump her one power over him - her sexuality. That is the man who is the PRIZE, the 'great catch', the male to be competed for with other women.
 

Captain Frank

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Bump

Rollo I agree entirely. Never bend your identity and personality to please women or you will lose all respect with them.

Keep up your profound level.
 

Visceral

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Rollo ...

Originally posted by Rollo Tomassi
when conditions are such that they feel deprived of certain experiences in their own life, this creates a conflict between a former identity and the altering of, or forming of a new one to meet the need for this experience.
What's your take on this conflict between identities; is there a way that it can be made to be much less of an obstacle than I'm sure it is?

In my own experience, the self manages to generate such powerful feelings of arrogance, betrayal, and a fear like that of death that it completely kills any motivation I might have to do or be anything but what I already am. Can these feelings be prevented somehow?

Is it also possible that a man's present identity can blind him to other possible identities, causing him to dismiss them as impossible or too out-of-character to be worth pursuing? Can this be fixed as well?
 

Rollo Tomassi

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VISCERAL: To give you a better illustration of this, think of the AFC that will enroll in a Volley Ball class for gym because the girl he thinks is the best prospect for becoming intimate with is an avid volley ball player. His friends and family ask him what he's doing playing volley ball when he has a demonstrated talent for football. The guy who's true to his existing personality will say "I'm only doing this to hook up with a cute volley ball girl", but the AFC will rationalize by saying "I've always been into volley ball and have had a secret desire to become a pro" or something similar. By making this internalization often enough, this guy in effect manifests his own conditions for a personality change in order to better identify with a potential source of intimacy as a result of a deficit of this intimacy.

Now expand this to encompass more broad personality traits and characteristics. The Nice Guy bears out the behaviors and mental schemas of a Nice Guy because that's his developed personality in accordance to identifying with enough potential sources of intimacy that this is the personae he's created. This can be intentional and/or subconscious. When a particular developed personality trait ceases to be reinforced it does indeed create an internal conflict. This is when friends and family begin to notice changes in behavior. Perhaps the Nice Guy got so burned, so often that he remakes himself into a Bad Boy and alters his clothing style, speech and other interests to better accomodate this transition in personality. The Bad Boy may change to Nice Guy as well in light of his own circumstances and this too manifests itself in his characteristics.

To answer your question, yes, this crossover can certainly cause inner turmoil and prompt self-analysis and evaluation as well as examining personal motivations. In some instances this transition is an easy move and in some (such as your own) the transition may not take place or does so piecemeal in order to test the waters so to speak until the personality changes over to a new or reverts back to an older (perhaps more secure) one after experimenting. It really depends on the intensity of the motivating influence (i.e the HB 10 is far more motivating than the HB 6).

And yes again, internalized self-images of personality most definitely become limiting factors for people depending on their circumstance. How many times have you heard the AFC reject DJ thinking because he's "just not like that" ? It's not that he couldn't it's that he has never been sufficiently prompted to make a change in his personality to do so.
 

donovan

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This is an awesome post. Love the info coming through. Identity is a huge issue that will always effect your game. We all need to get a handle on it.
 
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Blue Phoenix said:
Hey Rollo, I really appreciate your participation on this website! Especially because of your academic formation and good insights.

Keep it up. :up:
Agreed. Much appreciated.
 

The Bat

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Rollo Tomassi said:
VISCERAL: To give you a better illustration of this, think of the AFC that will enroll in a Volley Ball class for gym because the girl he thinks is the best prospect for becoming intimate with is an avid volley ball player. His friends and family ask him what he's doing playing volley ball when he has a demonstrated talent for football. The guy who's true to his existing personality will say "I'm only doing this to hook up with a cute volley ball girl", but the AFC will rationalize by saying "I've always been into volley ball and have had a secret desire to become a pro" or something similar.
Wait wait. Aren't they both compromising themselves when they play volleyball INSTEAD of football? Sure, the guy who is true to his personality is being honest about his intentions. But even then, the very act of him playing volleyball instead of football, which he is supposedly good at, JUST to hook up with the girl, isn't that a compromise in itself?

I mean, it's just like your example of guys who switch careers or pick the same college as the girlfriend's college. In all of these examples, they are still acting against their beliefs and abilities. So, here is the pivotal question: Does identity crisis (i.e. compromise) arise from rationalizing one's actions/beliefs against their own OR from acting against one's beliefs?
 

Interceptor

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A 'crisis' may happen when the individual does not have the resources to deal with the situation in a confident and mature manner.

Say a guy makes a rule to never call the next day after a date.
Which is perfectly fine.
But one day he just says 'Fvck it, I'll call anyway." And everything is fine.
He may realize that any outcome he coudl have handled anyway.
Since the notion is to not appear to eager and needy.
But if you TRULY ARE NOT eager and needy, it doesnt really matter what you do, youre always congruent and have the confidence to deal with anybody's perceptions of you.
If you truly recognize your worth and value, and have strong self esteem and arent adversely affected by people's reactions to you, you will not see these situations as 'crises'.
The guy who doesnt have confidence in himself will see this as a threat to his 'image' and his own self image, because he is trying to protect his ego.

And, because he places too much importance on another's 'judgement' of him.

We have to realize that we are NOT responsible for another persons perceptions or judgments of us.
We never had control over their 'filters' as it were.

So we have to be willing to allow others to see us however they see us.


This is where FAITH in our selves is needed.
We need to have faith in ourselves, our belief in ourselves, that we are true to ourselves regardless of how others may think we are.

Allow people to do that.
Be free of that.

Liberate yourself and get that peace of mind.
You never had control over that other person's experiences. You cannot somehow magically inject Respect and Self Esteem and clear thinking in another person.
Realize this.

Always remember, that one must RECOGNIZE Respect, by receiving it and giving it, and possessing self respect.

If someone disrespects you, it is out of ignorance and a Lack of Repect, self respect and given respect.

Dont sink to their level.

It is up to them to develop themselves, have self respect , compassion and consideration and accurate thinking, not us.
I cant take 100 yoga classes, and therapy sessions for a person so they can see me in my true authentic 'light', can I?

So if that person sees me as 'needy' or 'too eager' based on their incorrect assumptions, how can I be responsible for that?
Especially knowing deep in my heart that I truly am not either.

It's their filters. Not mine.


So I need to be congruent with myself FOR myself, and others whom I care about benefit from my congruency. As it is part of my value to them.

The minute I give up my power to them, is the moment I am no longer true to my inner self. That is when most guys panic, and see this as a threat.
Because of the 'rule' that they created in their head.

"Dont call or else she'll think you're a needy wuss! Dont do it , man! For God's sake!!"

Which is all just some misguided notion.

Youre worrying about someone and something you cant 'control',youre giving too much importance to an event and a person.

This is only causes hurt.
And it is actually immature. And misinformed.


True Identity is the collection of VALUES you posses, regardless of the current 'persona' you may have created for yourself.

One's VALUES are infinitely more important than what kind of cologne you wear, or the kind of car you drive...

Beliefs CAN change.

To hold on to belief out of ignorance, and especially when shown an alternate view is misguided and incorrect, and leads to suffering and confusion.


To let go of a self limiting belief because one of your Values is that you want to learn and GROW as a person, is your Identity speaking.


Your Identity is not your mind or image.....
 

Blue Phoenix

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After reading the book Boundaries from Henry cloud I started to see the light. No matter how many tricks you learn here if you´re insecure you´ll show incongruence sooner or later. It´s better to start inside-out than the other way around. To face your inner demons is something you have to do for yourself, no one can as each person has different demons to face.
 

Buddha_Mind

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There is a lot of truth in this thread -- god knows I've been guilty of this in the past -- and my most recent last LTR. The truth is stated in this post -- sacrifice your identity, you will be left behind, and then you'll be scrambling to get your head back together and "rediscover" your old self [my current circumstance].

Rollo, have appreciated your presence lately, has been insightful and direct to personal experience.

The hardest part of this game is practicing what we know...when emotions are detached and we are saturated in text = very different situation than when saturated by oxytocin. But with resolve and work comes progress.
 

Credos

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I was kind of reading between the lines here...

So does this mean that: If I adjust my environment properly I could mold my identity to the form I like?
 

Rollo Tomassi

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^^^
Yes. Personality is not static.
 

don't

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Learn to kick butt, karate and shooting. The confidence is reality-based, and it will show. Women dig this stuff, guys. It takes about 2 years and $10,000, but it's worth it, believe me. :) The first time that I blocked a punk's punch and broke a floating rib with a punch of my own, I said what Moon had told me I'd say one day:"Thank you my instructor". :)
 

Adrien123

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Hello All, me new here, feel good to be a part of this community, and me very happy to join this forum,
hope i will learn some good things here and also share my knowledge....
 
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