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TylerDurden’s 25 Point Checklist on Basic AFC (ie DJ) Mistakes

JT47319

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In response to "Common AFC Mistakes", I thought I'd start a new thread based off of TylerDurden's (of RSD fame) 25 points. This is FIELD TESTED SHYT, not KEYBOARD JOCKEY crap.
http://www.fastseduction.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?action=retrieve&grp=6&mn=105532129385436

25 POINT CHECKLIST:
  • 1) FIDGETY MOVEMENTS AND TIGHT SHOULDERS AND TAKING YOURSELF TOO SERIOUSLY OR BEING TOO BUSINESSLIKE OR "SOPHISTICATED" (not laughing or being relaxed) = very visible subconsious (or conscious) self-doubt, overcompensating through non-relaxed state, where you're prepared to deal with anything that could happen. Ever met someone who doesn't blink when you talk to them?
  • 2) TALKING TOO FAST (= worried that people will stop listening to you unless you get out something that will interest them before they leave
  • 3) LAUGHING AT YOUR OWN JOKES (= covering up that you aren't affected that others didn't laugh, and social nervousness
  • 4) SAYING "RIGHT" OR "YOU KNOW" AFTER STATEMENTS (= seeking validation that what you said was true, or saying it because others aren't
  • 5) STANDING WITH LEGS NOT HALF A METER APART AT LEAST (= worried that you'll infringe on other people's personal space
  • 6) TALKING TOO SOFTLY OR LOUD (= fear that you'll impose yourself on people and their personal space(ie: beta).. alpha males aren't afraid to project their voice.. YET, talking obviously too LOUD can also be seen as OVERCOMPENSATING. Just like guys who wear GENERIC clothes are trying to fit in, or guys who wear OUTRAGEOUS clothes are trying too hard to overcompensate. (hint: be careful with peacocking, find a style that doesn't come off this way, which can be tricky but is still very doable).. Some guys don't talk, some talk too much, etc etc.. Find appropriate balance through trial and error, which is determined through social observation,
  • 7) MOVING YOUR HANDS AROUND WHILE YOU TALK (= trying to keep the attention of the group (sometimes can be cool, but most often a form of qualifying yourself)
  • 8) LEANING IN *or* 'PECKING' (= too eager to talk.. NEVER lean in no matter how loud the environment is MAKE HER LEAN IN or just leave but NEVER lean in or "peck" as its also called.
  • 9) FACING BODY/FEET TOWARDS HER BEFORE SHE EARNED IT (= trying to gain rapport with her too eagerly.
  • 10) CHASING WHEN SHE WALKS AWAY (= hoping she'll listen. If a chick moves away from you, move your bodylanguage MORE away from her, so she'll be drawn back.. don't CHASE her... WTF?!@?!?
  • 11) NOT WITHDRAWING (backturns, etc) WHEN SHE DOES SOMETHING THAT YOU WOULDN'T TOLERATE FROM AN UGLY GIRL OR A GUY (= trying too hard to pick her up
  • 12) ANSWERING QUESTIONS TOO QUICKLY/EARLY (= too much interest in the conversation
  • 13) TURNING YOUR HEAD (OR "SNAPPING") WHEN YOU'RE ADDRESSED (= too eager to be in convo.. so if your head is facing the other direction, and a girl says something to you, turn it SLOWLY to her, don't snap it out of eagerness to hear her
  • 14) GOING BACK TO A PRIOR THREAD THAT WAS INTERUPTED AT THE FIRST CHANCE/BREAK-IN-CONVO THAT YOU GET (= trying too hard to impress them.. (ie: when a thread gets broken off in the convo, and you go back to it FIRST chance you get when the other topic ends, you look like you were WAITING to get back to it.. WHY are you so eager to get back on it, unless you don't feel comfortable around the person and you need to qualify yourself to them?) WAIT until THEY say "what was that you were saying before?", and THEN go back to it.. if it doesn't happen, *DROP IT* even if it was good.
  • 15) NOT APPEARING MORE INTO YOUR WINGMAN THEN THE CHICK (= trying too hard to pick her up.. you've known your wingman longer than her.. why do you pay more attention to her than your wing???
  • 16) TOO EAGER TO PAY ATTENTION - SAYING "what?" IF YOU CAN'T HEAR HER, PRIOR TO BEING IN RAPPORT (= too much interest in what she's saying.. if she mumbles, just STACK OPENERS into an entirely DIFFERENT topic, RATHER than saying "what?" This is ****ing KEY KEY KEY. If you say "what?" you'll lose her unless you're already past attraction and into rapport. If this happens, just run a new opener and change the topic.
    1- you don't look too eager,
    2- you look alpha for being disinterested in what she's talking about which helps anyway
  • 17) REPLYING WITH OVERLY THOUGHT-OUT OF LOGICAL ANSWERS OR WITH OVERLY CLEAR/FORMAL PRONUNCIATION (= being concerned that you won't be accepted unless you convince really well (eg. HB: why did you ask me that... RIGHT = I'm talking. (sit and stare) WRONG = because I really need to know since I've been thinking about this for a while.. the FIRST one conveys that you won't qualify yourself to her)
  • 18) TAKING TOO MANY SENTENCES TO STATE AN IDEA THAT COULD BE STATED IN LESS SPACE (= qualifying yourself. Commander Zap emails me a few months ago: "Remember TD, don't write what you can say, don't say what you can wink, don't wink what you can smile" TIGHT. The shorter you can explain something in, the more PROFOUND you'll appear. Why? You're not qualifying yourself. (ironically I'm massively guilty of this, due to the fact that I post when I'm really tired - see #21 to spot what was wrong with this last sentence)
  • 19) BEING BOLD INSTEAD OF CONFIDENT (= that you know that you can't pick her up, so you compensate with self-defeating actions so that the snub can be on "your terms". Saying "I'm sexy right?" or "baby I want some of that" or even just approaching when the logistics are totally unrealistic is too eager, because a CONFIDENT person wouldn't feel the NEED to say these kinds of things.. these things are symptoms of OVERCOMPENSATION for INSECURITIES.. which leads to..........
  • 20) OVERCOMPENSATING INSECURITIES (= fear of not being accepted. Have you ever met a janitor who the first thing he says is "money is over-rated.. I would never get caught up in the corporate world" blah blah.. if they'd have just said "I'm a janitor" and LEFT IT AT THAT we wouldn't have even THOUGHT that anything was wrong with it.. but because they INSTANTLY start overcompensating, it comes off as overcompensating or qualifying. Same with if they BRING IT UP TOO EARLY. Like "hey, I'm Steve.. I'm a janitor and I love it".. They're TRYING to be ****y but it comes off as COMPENSATING. BE COMFORTABLE WITH YOURSELF. If you're BALD, don't say "would you love a bald man?" as a pickup line. It's not ****Y.... its BOLD. If you're bad looking, don't say "don't you think I'm sexy". Just be comfortable with yourself, and don't bring up the issue at all.
 
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JT47319

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  • 21) OVERCOMPENSATING FAILURE OR SHORTCOMINGS = fear of being judged.. if you do poorly on a presentation, or on a sarge in front of a wingman, or on a test, DO NOT SAY DUMB **** LIKE "I'm really tired". EVEN IF you're ACTUALLY really tired, the mere act of saying "I'm tired" comes off as QUALIFYING yourself to the person. Just don't bring it up. If you have ****ty clothes on, don't say "I have nicer clothes at home." Just don't bring it up. If you meet a girl when you're dressed bad, don't say "I have the coolest club clothes at home" Just don't bring it up.
  • 22) GOING BACKWARDS IN THE PICKUP ON HER SCHEDULE = too eager to lay her.. if you've already GONE THROUGH the whole "let's ballbust and **** test eachother" attraction phase of the pickup, and you're now in RAPPORT -> if she tries to ballbust you at this point then just WITHDRAW ATTENTION. DO NOT BALLBUST BACK. It seems COUNTER INTUITIVE, but once you've gone through that whole little attract phase, and you're now being nice to eachother in rapport, DO NOT let her rewind the sarge by answering her ballbusting with ballbusts of your own. Just withdraw attention, to show that you're not interested in going BACKWARDS in a sarge.
  • 23) WAITING FOR HER IF SHE LEAVES FOR ANY REASON (LIKE SAYS "I'M GOING TO THE WASHROOM, WAIT HERE) = too eager and into the convo.. if she goes to the washroom, make sure you're into another set by the time she gets back.
  • 24) OVERLY REMEMBERING DETAILS ABOUT PAST CONVOS = convo means too much to you, because the person has unusual value to you (ie: a hot chick). Of course, I'm not advocating to be a total ****, but the general rule of thumb is that if you wouldn't have remembered a FAT CHICK or a GUY saying it, then don't remember the HB9 chick saying it. If some random dude said it and you would have remembered, then FINE. If you were in an unusually intimate convo that's also fine. But otherwise FAKE forgetting, even if she's a model and you remember every word. Even forget her name. If you see a random chick from your class or work, but you never talked to her, OPEN LIKE YOU DON'T KNOW HER. Don't give into the temptation to say "we work together". Just open like a random chick, and maybe if you get snubbed then pull out that card to save face, but only as a LAST RESORT.
  • 25) OFFERING TOO MUCH ABOUT YOURSELF TOO *EARLY* = too eager to make them like you.. subcategories of this are:

    A) Verbally: if you say to a chick "yeah, I just got back from NYC (or any cool place that would impress)" or "yeah, I just got my Rolex fixed", or "yeah, my stripper ex-girlfriend told me..." then she PICKS UP on the fact that you're trying too hard to impress her.. Same with NAME DROPPING.. DON'T GIVE GIRLS YOUR RESUME TOO EARLY.. Personality conveying routines should convey personality COVERTLY, so it looks like the story is just SO COOL that its WORTH TELLING on its own accord, and it just HAPPENS to have some good things about you in it. When offering good things about yourself, don't offer boring details. Say it with less detail, and it seems less eager. INSINUATE THAT WHICH YOU ARE TEMPTED TO ELICIDATE (holy ****, I just made up that last catchy sentence, but I've gotta say that I'm the ****.. right?)

    B) Entertaining: If you have stuff like patterns, or the CUBE, or magic, or photos, or palmreading, and you do this EARLY, it comes off as TRY-HARD. Personally I don't use any of these things, but alot of guys do, and when they bust them out prior to the chick EARNING it, it comes off TRY-HARD. Use the stuff LATER, but not right away.

    *****C) Wanting rapport with someone who didn't earn it: WHAT THE **** IS THIS ****??? I swear to god, almost *EVERY* PUA I meet live in field does this ****, and its SUPER LAME. Going up to a chick and saying "nice necklace" or "what's your name" or "where did you get that?" is ****ING DORK SUPER LAME. WHY THE **** DO YOU CARE ABOUT THIS STUFF FROM A R-A-N-D-O-M PERSON????? The counter argument to this is that you're not hiding your desires blah blah blah she's a hot girl and she should be happy that you're approaching, but this is INTERNET RHETORIC.. and this approach is STILL hiding your desires behind the GUISE that you're nice, so even if the rhetoric was true, it would STILL be ineffective... In the INTERNET ARMCHAIR GAME this stuff is FINE, but in the REAL FIELD GAME this **** screws you over before you've even started gaming. It's ****ing bull****, and NOBODY who isn't very goodlooking or socially proofed (or whatever high value) PRIOR to going in, can make this kind of approach work consistently on HB8.5+ chicks. TRYING FOR RAPPORT TOO EARLY IS QUALIFYING YOURSELF TO HER BECAUSE SHE HAS NOT EARNED IT.

    D) Talking without feedback: When you're talking to someone, and they don't give feedback, and you're talking and talking, you BETA YOURSELF. It's a DOWNWARD SPIRAL, where you start talking TOO MUCH, and you SENSE that you're qualifying yourself, so you overcompensate EVEN MORE by TALKING and TALKING more and more.. Then you feel more and more beta'ed because you qualified yourself, and you're left treading water, grabbing at ANYTHING that will impress the person, so you keep talking in hopes of saying that one thing that will impress them. AVOID this by not talking too much unless THEY give some feedback. IN THE FIELD you do this by PAUSING and FORCING them to fill in the awkward gaps.
 
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Panther

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Wow...

5 stars from me for this post...

Now I realise a LOT of things that were wrong with my game

Keep it up!
 

Titus

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Tryler Durden sux.

It's always really fun watching how people buy into Hollwood dreams.
They put the biggest capitalism moneymaking machine, Pitt, into a role of the biggest anticapitalism and today's society fighting machine, Durden... naw ain't that just plain old ironic...? And people think they finally found their long lost anticapitalism fighting icon.

Idiots.

If you want to see how a real typical "Tyler Durden" guy looks like, go look into the nearest 9-5, 1$ a day factory that stinks a mile around and totaly destroys your body after working 10 years inside it.
 
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sandinista

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yeah, most of this stuff is good. But i disagree with some of your ideas.

"don't move your hands around while you talk".
I do this naturally. I've always done it & sometimes it can be very exagerated. But i can't stop myself. It's automatic. & i'm not gonna stop it either. It's part of my individualism & i'm not gonna train myself to stop just to impress someone else!
& besides.. I've read elsewhere that this shows confidence. If it doesn't.. i don't care.

"be more interested in your wingman than the girl"
This is just stupid. I now this from accidently doing this a few times. The girl will just think you're not very good with women & are too reliant on your friend for social interaction. She'll also get bored while you & your wingman are yattering away to each other.

"not remembering past convos"
You're suggesting you fake forgetting? This also, i disagree with. When you can recall things she said in the past it shows that you actually LISTEN to her. By prenteding you don't remember stuff she said aren't you just 'overcompinsating your insecurities' in the same way you try to impress her with all your stories too soon.
I think you're contradicting yourself here.

But anyway, thats just my view on things. Otherwise, It's a nice little guide.
 

true|hockey

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"not remembering past convos"
You're suggesting you fake forgetting? This also, i disagree with. When you can recall things she said in the past it shows that you actually LISTEN to her. By prenteding you don't remember stuff she said aren't you just 'overcompinsating your insecurities' in the same way you try to impress her with all your stories too soon.
I think you're contradicting yourself here.


I remember conversations from 10 years ago with crystal clear accuracy, and that was before I was thinking about women and sex ( I was 12 at the time).
 

JT47319

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Originally posted by Titus
Tryler Durden sux.

It's always really fun watching how people buy into Hollwood dreams.
They put the biggest capitalism moneymaking machine, Pitt, into a role of the biggest anticapitalism and today's society fighting machine, Durden... naw ain't that just plain old ironic...? And people think they finally found their long lost anticapitalism fighting icon.

Idiots.

If you want to see how a real typical "Tyler Durden" guy looks like, go look into the nearest 9-5, 1$ a day factory that stinks a mile around and totaly destroys your body after working 10 years inside it.
Tyler Durden as in the dude who runs the Real Social Dynamics workshops.
 

CLOONEY

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Originally posted by JT47319
Tyler Durden as in the dude who runs the Real Social Dynamics workshops.
Tyler Duren, as in the ugly redhead dude, who gives 25 point checklists as the RULES for AFC chumps who have absolutely no idea with woman?

The one who makes his money off dribbling, bumbling idiots? Those same idiots who could learn just as much, if not more, for free here at sosuave. Off guys who collectively have 1000* the experience that dude does?

Oh yeah, I know which "Tyler Durden" u are talking about :rolleyes:

If u follow all those rules up there, u aint gonna have NO game, u will be too busy racking your mind for which rules u may be breaking. lol, some newbies are just real sad. Get out there, experience, grow, learn from your mistakes, ask questions to guys who have the experience, grow some more, and then give your feedback to the newbies that are, once you have gained enough experience to help them. Thats how this world shoudl work, not bumbs making money off other bumbs!!
 

Superman X

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I know virtually nothing about Tyler Durden's workshops, or his other posts, or whatever else he does.

However, I do know that these particular 25 points are excellent. And not just for PU, for socializing in general. I encourage everyone to look beyond their prejudice against mASFers, and to see this post for what it is: an excellent guide to non-verbal socializing.

Thanks for posting this here JT, I saw it once on fastseduction.com but couldn't find it again.

-Dan
 

JT47319

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I did a survey not too long ago about whether or not people have trained at workshops or not...

Take a look, buddy, boy.


  • [*]Natural PUAs: DJ only, no workshop - 6, 24%
    [*]Sub-PUA: DJ only, no workshop - 12, 48%
    [*]PUA: DJ, workshop - 5, 20%
    [*]Sub-Pua: DJ, workshop - 2, 8%


The OVERWHELMING majority of those who have taken ANY kind of workshop are vastly more successful than those KEYBOARD JOCKEYS who just read internet crap from OTHER Keyboard Jockeys.
 

Belgium_Freak

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very very good article, there are some points that i was doing myself (ie speaking too fast).. thanks a lot buddy!
 

CLOONEY

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Originally posted by JT47319
I did a survey not too long ago about whether or not people have trained at workshops or not...

Take a look, buddy, boy.


  • [*]Natural PUAs: DJ only, no workshop - 6, 24%
    [*]Sub-PUA: DJ only, no workshop - 12, 48%
    [*]PUA: DJ, workshop - 5, 20%
    [*]Sub-Pua: DJ, workshop - 2, 8%


The OVERWHELMING majority of those who have taken ANY kind of workshop are vastly more successful than those KEYBOARD JOCKEYS who just read internet crap from OTHER Keyboard Jockeys.
Study business statistics and then tell me your survey is viable :rolleyes:

Your survey tells nobody ANYTHING!!!

Once more, I will say, TD makes money off chumps! I dont know ANYONE who has any confidence with woman that would go to that rednut for help!
 

Tango-Kid

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Yea, some points are good, some even excellent.

However, I think it´s stupid to make a 25 point checklist to remember in the field. Many of these statements can be true, but put together they leave you with no game.

Each situation is different. You need to be keen in what´s happenening.. sense what´s going on. "Breath" the moment... don´t concentrate in superfacial and secondary stuff, like how to keep your hands.

This stuff put together will help you in an "ideal" situation. And ideal.. it doesn´t excist.

All of the good points in the list, should be A RESULT of your personality, confidence etc. NOT A PRIMARY GOAL you are trying to achive.
 

Kineti[C]harm

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There are COUNTLESS fieldreports, workshop reviews and what not that supports TDs success. It is just stupid to say that TD, Xaneus, Jlaix, ijjjji, Nightblue, PlayboyLA, 26 and all those top PUAs ain't doing good (PlayboyLA and TD of RSD/Project Hollywood fame are GREAT PUAs even though I don't like their system or game because i think it's too heavily based on routines). But even SUGGESTING that they are bad is stupid.

I will almost bet that TD could pull a hot girl from ANYONE on this forum. remember TD only goes for the hottest girls around which requires abit different game than 5, 6s and 7.


Tango-kid, many of those that go into using the RSD game even have with them cheatlists when sarging to remember stuff, and they DO get good.
 

Tango-Kid

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I will almost bet that TD could pull a hot girl from ANYONE on this forum. remember TD only goes for the hottest girls around which requires abit different game than 5, 6s and 7.
This is what came to my mind... a lot of this stuff can work with the HOTTEST girls... with good confidence! Most average and even hot girls don´t (after all) have so good confidence. That brings up problems if acting very distant... such things as "not remembering" the girl´s name.

I don´t know about these famous players, I don´t know who TD is. Neither do I know too much about "scientific DJ:ing". Hence, I´m very objective about this post.
 

Tango-Kid

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By the way, Kinetic

I´m not saying these guys are bad, I don´t know them, and I don´t care to know. These guys might be great, but it doesn´t mean they always give good tips. The world´s fastest runner is not necessarily a good coach! If you give tips generally, the tips must be general. If you give tips for professionals, you can give more complicated tips. I believe these tips are meant for AFC:s. If an AFC learns only this, without improving and REALLY being confident and all that, he will only know FACTS.

Experts have a wide knowledge and potential to perform things according to theories, in fact the line between "theory" and "practice" vanishes. Beginners only know some FACTS - without a potential to use them... and end up looking like the guy in the "Alpha male body language" - video :rolleyes:


The usage of all skills depends so much in the context, as said - I believe most of this works with the hottest ladies.
 

CLOONEY

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I have never met this Tyler guy or any of his "crew". However I do know that the people who visit him and pay him SH*TLOADS of cash are the same ones who have NO CLUE with woman. I also know those same guys could come here, get the right attitude and find themselves some ladies without a charge.

A guy who invests most of his time into ladies has already lost the meaning of life in my book.

I dont doubt he does well with the ladies, he is just a bumb who makes money off other bumbs. Plus I heard about some "project hollywood", where these guys wanted to save the cash, buy a big mansion and invite all the celebs there to party with them. WTF, hahahhaaha, talk about desperate.

And when u say TD could pull a hot girl from anyone on the forum? U mean if I was out with a girlfriend of mine a TD approached her, she would leave me for him? hahahahahaa. ha ha hahaha, thats funny man.
 

Kidquick

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I'm not really familiar at all with TD either, however I did find the article to be very thought provoking, especially this one -

*****C) Wanting rapport with someone who didn't earn it: WHAT THE **** IS THIS ****??? I swear to god, almost *EVERY* PUA I meet live in field does this ****, and its SUPER LAME. Going up to a chick and saying "nice necklace" or "what's your name" or "where did you get that?" is ****ING DORK SUPER LAME. WHY THE **** DO YOU CARE ABOUT THIS STUFF FROM A R-A-N-D-O-M PERSON????? The counter argument to this is that you're not hiding your desires blah blah blah she's a hot girl and she should be happy that you're approaching, but this is INTERNET RHETORIC.. and this approach is STILL hiding your desires behind the GUISE that you're nice, so even if the rhetoric was true, it would STILL be ineffective... In the INTERNET ARMCHAIR GAME this stuff is FINE, but in the REAL FIELD GAME this **** screws you over before you've even started gaming. It's ****ing bull****, and NOBODY who isn't very goodlooking or socially proofed (or whatever high value) PRIOR to going in, can make this kind of approach work consistently on HB8.5+ chicks. TRYING FOR RAPPORT TOO EARLY IS QUALIFYING YOURSELF TO HER BECAUSE SHE HAS NOT EARNED IT.
I've always been a huge fan of women in general, and I used to put them up on the pedestal early on without even realizing it - articles like this, (although a few points I don't agree with 100%) and this site in general sure has made me see the light
 

wolfie

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I can say this about getting 'free advice' from sosuave.com instead of taking workshops - the advice here is just general stuff on life improvement. It's not woman specific and it's doesn't inspire immediate action like going out and actually hitting set after set of girls does.
 

Señor Fingers

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These 25 points may seem analytical and silly, but they helped me immensely by showing me what behaviors were sabotaging my game. Keep in mind that the rules are not unbendable, they are merely a guideline to follow till you can tread water on your own. TD has been known to break many of these rules himself, relying only on instinct.

As far as the whole workshop debate is concerned, I think there are certain things that can only be taught in real life (body language, tonality, timing, etc) and if you can swing the cover charge, it is worth it. But even better than this would be to link up with some natural players to learn from. A skilled eye can help you pinpoint and work on your weaknesses, saving you lots of crash time in the field.
 
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