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Vegan- are they right?

chaj3_11

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Lately i ve been doing alot of reading on the vegan diet and how it helps prevent cancer, heart disease and even reverse diabetes.

I ve been given two documentaries to watch on the subject,
Forks over knives and earthlings. To be honest forks over knives was a very good watch. However earthlings is meant to be a bit more erm, graphic with how meats made etc so im wary of watching it.

I feel mental for even considering it but theres alot of science and studies (China Study) that show this diet is very healthy. I wonder how this diet would affect muscle and bodybuilding..

Basically wondering if there are any vegans/vegetarians on here who could share their thoughts.
 

Tictac

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Let's see, man crawls out of the ooze about what 15,000 25,000 years ago and spends most of that time as an omnivore, meanwhile propagating and emerging as a dominant species.

Somewhere in the last 100 to 1,000 years, a few humans switch to some combination of vegetarian or vegan diet and say they live longer. Scientific research is diffident on the claim.

It's not about 'right'. It's do you want to do that and why.

My puny experience isn't worth much. But most of the veg's and vegans I know are sallow. And they spend a ton of money on supplements and doctors.
 

speed dawg

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I don't think so, I think it's just another group of useful idiots who want to feel smarter than others.

Eating meat is natural and necessary. Again, moderation is always key, but the hivemind is too stupid to realize this. When they think, "eat meat", all they see is some fat New Yorker chowing down on McDonald's all day, as if that is the poster child. So they protest McDonald's.
 

Bible_Belt

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I was a vegetarian for 7 years, and vegan-ish for about half of that.

The problem with vegan, which means no use of animal products, is that it is impossible to function in modern life without using products that contain at least some animal parts, especially glues and leather. You'd have to go without automobiles and most shoes.

I dropped vegetarianism when I started training mma. I still only eat meat when eating out, or dining with family.

It's not that vegetarianism is perfect, but if you look at what a fat piece of sh!t your typical American is, vegetarianism would be perfect for them.
 

speed dawg

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Bible_Belt said:
It's not that vegetarianism is perfect, but if you look at what a fat piece of sh!t your typical American is, vegetarianism would be perfect for them.
Would it? When you talk about obesity, I really don't think meat is the problem. I tend to blame refined sugar and carbohydrates combined with a sedentary lifestyle, all of which is still present for the vegetarian.

If you want a true diet for health I'd say it's the Mediterranean or whatever, that fixates on lean meats, nuts and vegetables only.
 

Bible_Belt

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Present in theory, yes, but not necessarily in common practice. Someone who puts enough effort into their diet to avoid meat will typically avoid other foods that are bad for them. It is more correlation than causation.

I find the two most essential dietary components to weight loss are #1 healthy fats, and #2 natural fiber. Vegetarians tend to get a lot of those. If you had a typical fat American consume a purely vegetarian diet all day, with lots of healthy fat and fiber, and then after all of that was consumed you told them they can eat all the steak they want before bed...I think they wouldn't be a fat American very long. Fiber and good fat fill a person up; they make you not want any more food.

The only vitamin required by the body and contained only in animal products is vitamin B12. For years, they used to teach in schools that we all had to eat meat, or we would get a B12 deficiency. And then finally somebody brought up the point there's a billion or so poor people around the world who can't afford to eat meat, and they're not keeling over from B12 deficiencies...in fact they didn't even seem to have a B12 deficiency at all. A study in India finally resolved the great question - bug excrement on produce contains enough B12 to fill the body's needs just fine.

And by the way, my family raises beef cattle, so I'm not exactly a PETA member. I'm yet to meet a farmer who was cruel to his animals. Our cows live a pampered life. We have to sell off the males at about two years of age so they don't fight with our bull, but we keep the females to have calves. Before cattle are slaughtered, they will go to a feed lot to be stuffed with corn to fatten them up, and conditions there are cramped and dirty, but that is only for the last 2-3 weeks of their lives.
 

Gusaldo

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I think the vegan life style is unhealthy that strips away nutrients from your body.
 

marmel75

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I say no, based on one very important thing.

If humans were meant to be vegans, we would convert Vitamin K1 into Vitamin K2 easily and efficiently like other herbivore animals that graze on grass and plants. We don't. And seeing how Vitamin K2 is extremely important to our overall health and dealing with calcium properly(ESPECIALLY important these days when everything is fortified with calcium), this shows me we are not supposed to be vegans.

The way humans would have gotten their K2 is from animal fats, milks, cheeses, and meats. These animals intake large quantities of K1 via the grasses and plants they eat, and their bodies then convert it into K2 via sunshine. This is why its important to eat pasture raised, grass fed animals. They contain K2 in the amounts they should, whereas normal animals fed grain and kept inside have virtually no K2. This subtype of K2 is called MK-4 and is a shorter acting form of Vitamin K2.

There is a much better and longer lasting(up to 3 days) form called MK-7 which is found in fermented foods, which is created by the bacteria fermenting K1 into K2. This is found in foods such as Natto(highest K2 content of any food), Sauerkraut, and Kefir. Which, I suppose these societies could have used, but it's much more likely they would have eaten animal products for their K2 as Dr. Weston Price found when he visited these societies all over the world and discovered the importance of K2(which he called X-Factor or Activator X)...
 

Dryden

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It is no surprise that Asian people live longer. Asian people generally do more with their bodies and also eat leaner meals and more vegetables, fish, and less meat.

Before the portuguese arrived in Japan, Japanese people generally didn't even eat meat at all, only fish.

Asian people sit on the floor or do more with a natural type of living. They are not as spoiled as Western people with comfort and all that.

I believe a large part of the disease is comfort. Call it comfort hugging. People in Western societies are pampered too much for their own good and health. A vegetarian diet is generally a deviation from that, and hence it is inherently healthier:

- vegetables, beans, but mostly also lentils (a missing element of western diets) are not your typical "drinks coke and eats burgers" food, to put it like that. Lentils are extremely healthy. Soy products generally (can be) also, particularly tempeh. Soy isn't perfect in this world, but it is rather good at times. Rice is a product that yields less carbohydrates per gram than does potatoes or meal. Some people that have a disease that causes them to lose weight all the time can't eat rice, because they can't eat enough of it. You can't overeat on rice.

Sitting on the floor is healthy. How many people do you know that sit on the floor at times, even or especially as they get older (adult) ?. Sitting on the floor is good for your legs and back. It is like yoga, a bit. It exercises your back and leg joints and muscles to a greater extent than most sendentary western people do. Most people that I know in my society generally never go below "knee level". This means their knees are never fully used and they always sit in chairs which means their backs are not fully exercised. This is very very unhealthy. It is unhealthy to always be "above the ground" and in beds that are lifted from the ground. From deep experience I can say that.

I am currently wheelchaired and in a regular bed. I hate it. The floor is meant for sitting. We decided somewhere in the past that we would not be like animals and hence would not sit on the floor.

Most vegetables you get from the supermarket these days are of very poor quality. I generally, when I am free and on my own. I even use veggies from can or jar. They are better than the supermarket induced foods these days. Organic shops are sometimes, often, better. I mean fresh foods, of course. The pollution they get from the supermarket (electronical systems, chagrined people, treatment from personnel) make them lose their quality and vitamins (for some, vulnerable products at least).

Prepackaged canned food is better in that case because it is better protected and preserved and obviously canned as fresh as possible.

Then when you treat it (e.g. green beans) with balsamico vinegar and a good black pepper, they restore some of their quality again.

I don't eat vegetarian but I have done so for a long time. I have dropped the "principality" position and just look at what my body needs now.

I am sure don't need the vast amounts of (processed) meats I am presented with nowadays. I maybe digest 5% of their vitamin and nutrition content. So it is 95% bull****, because also I eat too much of it. But there's nothing else. The cheese is of poor quality also, always. But generally better than or different from the meat. I am really dying for some raw veggies but I can't get them.

I believe a lot of people have a lack of potassium.

Meat that is treated with respect is better than western-treated meats. I generally prefer to eat at e.g. an Iraqian food place nearby where I live because at least they love their food and what they do, from long experience and tradition. It is not the feeling of "buy as cheap as possible, produce as horrible as you can". They fry their meat on metal plates etc., it is good.

I never buy meat from the supermarket myself, I don't need so much of it that I can't get enough when I eat out.

Presently my body needs....

Well it doesn't need anything because it is trying to die.

I find it hard-fetched to think of what it needed if that wasn't so.

These foods that I used to want before, don't even produce a glimmer of attraction and hope in me anymore. Eggs, soy milk, tomatoes, raw mushrooms, raw carrots, raw bell pepper, that sort of thing. Bread. Potatoes. Lots of potatoes if I can eat them in a nice way. Contain a lot of potassium. Is good for you. Meat. Good red meat.

But I generally think vegetarianism is a statement that does not agree with what the body really needs. That is to say: it is a mental position, but not a direct experience.

If you follow the direct experience of your truth and your feelings and what your body indicates that it needs and likes, then much of the meat eating we see people do today is obviously much wrong and mistaken, but also the vegetarian or even vegan position is mostly a rational mindset and also not an intuitive thing.
 

chaj3_11

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Might give it a try for a few weeks n see if theres a positive change in energy levels n overall health. I love experimenting with diets. Keto was by far the hardest i ve tried so far.

If my energy increases as a lot of vegans say it will i ll be chuffed as lately i feel ran down. Sleep 10 hours a day n still feel tired.
 

ArcBound

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Dryden said:
It is no surprise that Asian people live longer. Asian people generally do more with their bodies and also eat leaner meals and more vegetables, fish, and less meat.
Longer compared to who?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

In order of ranking of live expectancy for males:

#1 San Marino
#2 Iceland/Switzerland/Australia
#3
#4
#5 Italy, Japan, Singapore, Canada, Cyprus, Israel, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden

No rank 3 or 4 given for male expectancy.

United States which I assume most people on this forum are on is number 37.

But the list of life expectancy actually favors Europeans.

But you are right about the less meat and fish. I believe there was a NIH article talking about more meat (protein actually) led to lower life expectancy. Also the western and european nations on that list all seem to be fish heavy, coastal countries with the exception of Luxembourg.
 

marmel75

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chaj3_11 said:
Might give it a try for a few weeks n see if theres a positive change in energy levels n overall health. I love experimenting with diets. Keto was by far the hardest i ve tried so far.

If my energy increases as a lot of vegans say it will i ll be chuffed as lately i feel ran down. Sleep 10 hours a day n still feel tired.

Personally I think Keto is crap...all it did for me was help me lose size and strength and feel flat all the time. Carb cycling will give the same benefits without any of the downfalls.
 

Dryden

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ArcBound said:
Longer compared to who?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

In order of ranking of live expectancy for males:

#1 San Marino
#2 Iceland/Switzerland/Australia
#3
#4
#5 Italy, Japan, Singapore, Canada, Cyprus, Israel, Luxembourg, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden
You conveniently only talk about males ;-). Japan is the foremost country for females. There are more 100+ women in Okinawa than anywhere else in the world. I guess males just kill themselves there more often, or have to work like ****bags for their employers. China is not high on the list but that is not because of diet, it is because they don't care about letting people die.

It may be the most nihilistic country I have ever not visited. But that asides.

So we have a western life expectancy and Japan is also a 'western' industrialized country by a far stretch. You don't have to be very imaginative for that. So there is good health care or at least life-prolonging health care.

I have done some volunteer work for elderly people in my country. I can't say they grow old happily. Hospital visits grow much more frequently as time goes on. It becomes a normal thing for elderly people. They are being kept alive even when they should have died long ago. So the figures are a bit... skewed. People in Okinawa don't live like that, for instance. You have people in Hokkaido also, in their 60s or 70s or even 80s, who still do deep-sea pearl diving. Women, again.

It's a different lifestyle okay.

Women in the Netherlands who grow old. Well. Maybe you'll still live on yourself. Maybe your husband, if he's still alive, and his deteriorating health will be the most of your concern. Maybe you get dumped in an institution (elderly home) with hundreds of others. I hope you don't end up in geriatric psychiatry because life there is absolute hell even for the people who work there. (You can't get an old person to shut up anymore. Doesn't work. So their guts are spilled all the time. Their hate flows forth continuously toward your fine ears as you are sitting there doing your 'duties').

But you are being kept alive!!!!.

How fine is that :). Greatness. I love it so much. These prospects of elderly age we have :D. It makes you want to live so.... much and so... old! :D.

But the list of life expectancy actually favors Europeans.
Well it is because of the health care, not because they are healthy. Of course, people in Iceland and Austria and Switzerland will be more healthy than Dutch people because of the environment. They are rich, AND their country is healthy to live in (mountains and all that). It is not really an indication of health, though, per se, foremost.

It is conflagrated by the very esteemed efforts to keep everyone alive beyond their normal life expectancy. They just won't let people die.

But you are right about the less meat and fish. I believe there was a NIH article talking about more meat (protein actually) led to lower life expectancy. Also the western and european nations on that list all seem to be fish heavy, coastal countries with the exception of Luxembourg.
Well of course that is interesting. I would expect San Marino to be healthy indeed. Small country, happy people. Lots of fish. Wish to go there some day. May know a girl from around there (if I ever meet her again). She was a dual citizen from San Marino and the States. She was nice. Her email is still there but has been hacked. No response. I guess... maybe just a chance encounter in Italy ;-D. Who knows. You might end up somewhere that is fun.
 

Bible_Belt

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Life expectancy being increased dramatically by modern medicine is a myth. The stats for life expectancy have gone up because we have nearly eliminated child mortality, compared to how common it was 100 years ago. But when controlling for child mortality, the life expectancy in the US has only gone up 8-10 years in the past century.

And if you lump together overdoses from prescription drugs and deaths from medical mistakes, healthcare is the leading cause of death in this country. Obviously healthcare saves a lot of lives, but they kill a lot of people, too.
 

ArcBound

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Dryden said:
You conveniently only talk about males ;-).
This forum, this post, the original poster, you and I, are conveniently males so that is the relevant information.

Japan is richer than most of the European countries on that list yet still is passed by many of them for the life expectancy of a man. This is despite having a vegetarian heavy, fish heavy, relatively meatless diet.

If you are a man, there is no point in basing your diet on a country's diet that has a high standard of living for women.
 

Dryden

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ArcBound said:
This forum, this post, the original poster, you and I, are conveniently males so that is the relevant information.

Japan is richer than most of the European countries on that list yet still is passed by many of them for the life expectancy of a man. This is despite having a vegetarian heavy, fish heavy, relatively meatless diet.

If you are a man, there is no point in basing your diet on a country's diet that has a high standard of living for women.
I don't know. It's only a few years. They have a horrible work culture that probably kills more men than women. I don't know. I think you have to pick what works for you based on what you like, that is your clearest pointer. At this point, I like red meat, particularly beef, I don't like pork as much or at all. I don't like chicken so much or anything else (of what you can eat meat-wise in the supermarket). I like milk at the moment. And so on. I don't like fish as much, particularly the fish I eat here, I ..hate it. I don't even like the sea when I grew up at one. I'll probably end up in the woods or mountains some day. I don't care much about vegetables, and will not eat or like much of the present day vegetables they sell. I still like a lot of fruit.


Bible_Belt said:
Life expectancy being increased dramatically by modern medicine is a myth. The stats for life expectancy have gone up because we have nearly eliminated child mortality, compared to how common it was 100 years ago. But when controlling for child mortality, the life expectancy in the US has only gone up 8-10 years in the past century.

And if you lump together overdoses from prescription drugs and deaths from medical mistakes, healthcare is the leading cause of death in this country. Obviously healthcare saves a lot of lives, but they kill a lot of people, too.
So you're saying it is a dual affect? Life expectency is prolonged and cut back at the same time? I can't shake off the impression that keeping-people-alive has something to do with it. It is often a topic of debate. People are offended and outraged by it. Doctors admit that they would choose a different path for themselves than what they are obligated to choose for their patients.

8-10 years is still a lot btw. People are not living more healthy, and I'm not sure if they are eating more healthy. I don't know where these 8-10 years come from. Maybe life is just generally easier. Most drug prescriptions (of the heart kind etc) are meant to prolong life. Even anti-depressants are meant to just "keep you going" and to not accept that you may want to step out or give up.
 
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