As Men, Why Do We Take This?

So I wanted to start a discussion here on the Mature Men section, as to why as MEN collectively in this country whom are both the dominant sex in terms of financial and brain power, why do we TOLERATE a horrible Court System in favor of women?

- Fake DV Charges

- Fake Rape Charges

- Child Support Cases won mostly by women and Men having to pay significant amounts to pay for not just the child but the woman and her new boyfriend

- Alimony Payments

- Divorce Proceedings with women taking over HALF of the assets up front

For the life of me I don't get why we as MEN have not protested and demanded that the laws change? When I'm usually in a group of guys and I discuss this, I usually get the "deer in the headlights look" from them as if they are either stunned I'm bringing it up or they just say, "Oh well, my girl would never do that."

There should be protesting in the streets, maybe I should start a grassroots movement? Let me tell you something, I'm ALL FOR if you have children you should contribute to paying for your child but it should ONLY be for the welfare of the child. If I make $1 million a year you can't justify $200,000 in child support payments, that's over and above taking care of the child. I'm also ALL FOR if you abuse a woman or rape her, you need to be seriously DEALT with. I'm also for if the both of you BUILT something during a marriage and each contributed 50/50 to it, then you should split 50/50 of the profits or assets of that activity. All of these things are common sense and fair/balanced.

But the other things I listed above are not, and instead as MEN we stand up and protest to get these laws changed, we just go on about our lives as if these things could "never happen to us".

I wanted to get some thoughts from you guys on this?

It did happen to me. Yes, it sucks.

The lawyers, judges and winners of this system like it just the way it is.

Tenacity said:

When I'm usually in a group of guys and I discuss this, I usually get the "deer in the headlights look" from them as if they are either stunned I'm bringing it up or they just say, "Oh well, my girl would never do that."

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Two things:
1) Women outnumber us in the voting booth.
2) As you describe above, men are in denial about what women are capable of - especially the women they are close to. It's the whole "it can't happen to me" delusion. Most likely they will find themselves blindsided.

I myself was one of those ignorant men. I never though my ex wife would be capable of such a thing. But when the divorce happened, a red pill was forceably shoved down my throat and my eyes were opened. So perhaps it's because most men haven't had the experience 1st hand. But there are movements that are happening, men's rights movements.

Dear Tenacity,
Whatever the handicaps,we men are buoyed to rise above them!

Here's my POV on this though. The Tea Party is a small group of right wing conservatives that are middle class, who pulled their financial resources together and formed a grassroots movement to put their issues on centerstage. They literally hijacked the Republican Party as that was the only platform they could closely hijack to get their agendas passed.

MEN in this country who have been ripped off by the things I listed above, FAR outnumber the Tea Party. Yes, the Tea Party has been called everything but a child of God, but so what? They have their politicians in office, their agendas debated, and they are on the national stage. They are taken seriously and respected, no matter WHAT your personal opinions of them are.

Why in the hell can't MEN do the same thing? MEN who are victims of these things far outnumber the Tea Party in numbers, financial resources, etc. Matter of fact, many HIGH PROFILE Men have been victims of this.

I want to start a grassroots to get something moving. All we would need to do is STAY on message about having a more efficient Family Court System. No woman bashing, women are pieces of ****, type of speech, all we need to do is stay on message and I'm SURE majority of Americans (even women) will agree with what we are saying.

I can already estimate the rebuttals from detractors. They won't debate the logic of our stances, they will just scream personal attacks such as:

- They all must be gay
- They must all hate women
- They must all aren't getting laid
- They must all hate their mothers

Let them scream this until their voice goes out, it won't mean a damn thing. If we STAY on message the majority of the country will be with us, and we can start to implement some CHANGES in the Court System. It wont' happen overnight but it will happen in TIME.

I say let's get something going, I'm ready to start NEXT WEEK. We can either sit around on these forums and bytch and moan about it, or we can DO something about it....I don't see why in the hell there hasn't already been protesting? I mean come on, the laws clearly make no sense.

Danger I see, but there are laws against employers doing that though. I think it's time we do more things to fight this rather than just writing blogs. The Men's Movement needs to get out in the street and elect politicians to push forward our agenda. Paul Elam has something like this going but it could be bigger and more political, rather than just Conferences continuing the bytching about the problem.

Tenacity said:

Danger I see, but there are laws against employers doing that though. I think it's time we do more things to fight this rather than just writing blogs. The Men's Movement needs to get out in the street and elect politicians to push forward our agenda. Paul Elam has something like this going but it could be bigger and more political, rather than just Conferences continuing the bytching about the problem.

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Easier said than done. You have my support. But to even stand up for mens rights, you will be attacked, shamed, and called a misogynist.

Its almost like you cant do it peacfully (at least at this point) and that limits your options.

Tenacity said:

So I wanted to start a discussion here on the Mature Men section, as to why as MEN collectively in this country whom are both the dominant sex in terms of financial and brain power, why do we TOLERATE a horrible Court System in favor of women?

- Fake DV Charges

- Fake Rape Charges

- Child Support Cases won mostly by women and Men having to pay significant amounts to pay for not just the child but the woman and her new boyfriend

- Alimony Payments

- Divorce Proceedings with women taking over HALF of the assets up front

For the life of me I don't get why we as MEN have not protested and demanded that the laws change? When I'm usually in a group of guys and I discuss this, I usually get the "deer in the headlights look" from them as if they are either stunned I'm bringing it up or they just say, "Oh well, my girl would never do that."

There should be protesting in the streets, maybe I should start a grassroots movement? Let me tell you something, I'm ALL FOR if you have children you should contribute to paying for your child but it should ONLY be for the welfare of the child. If I make $1 million a year you can't justify $200,000 in child support payments, that's over and above taking care of the child. I'm also ALL FOR if you abuse a woman or rape her, you need to be seriously DEALT with. I'm also for if the both of you BUILT something during a marriage and each contributed 50/50 to it, then you should split 50/50 of the profits or assets of that activity. All of these things are common sense and fair/balanced.

But the other things I listed above are not, and instead as MEN we stand up and protest to get these laws changed, we just go on about our lives as if these things could "never happen to us".

I wanted to get some thoughts from you guys on this?

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I am 100% behind you with your thinking. Something needs to be altered with the family courts system. My son's mother makes 2x as much as me, yet my support obligation % is higher than hers?!! WTF!! Whenever I spoke to a lawyer about this----and there have been many----it's as though they don't want to touch it. Like they're afraid of the judge. but isn't that why you pay them----to respectfully challenge the judges decision?


Doesn't matter. I found out, and it my be different in different states, but the state gets money from the federal government the more women that are off the state's payroll. In other words, if you're paying some ridiculous amount in child support, the state won't have to and may even be rewarded for it.

In the same breath, I'm happy that I'm in a position to pay such a ridiculous amount. Even though she doesn't need it, I know that the money has to have an impact on his life. So....yeah. would I like it to be lower? Of course. But what woman, who is already on the man's payroll, will say "Gee. My ex is really getting screwed with child support/alimony. Perhaps we should petition the court to lower the amount." Like Zekko said, it all comes down to money and political power. The feminist imperative is ingrained into our culture and legal system like a bad tattoo. Good luck getting it out.

For this to work we would have to do a couple of things:

1.) Round up as many men across the country that have been hurt by the system and show how they have been hurt. "Hurt" wouldn't be defined as a guy that was made to take care of his child, but instead "hurt" would be the excessive over and above payments in child support and how the woman took the payments to rip off the guy (or the other way around, a guy getting payments from a woman and ripping her off).

2.) We would have to show the same with alimony payments.

3.) We would have to show the false DV reports and fake rape reports, and how they destroyed some men's lives.

We would have to then get this on a national stage and stay on the message of a FAIR AND BALANCED Court System. I think that even though we are in a feminized based culture, we can get a lot of women to join the band wagon because the system (while many women benefit from it) women can also get screwed as well. I have stories of women that have had to pay alimony to their "loser" husbands as well.

I think what we could do is position this not as a Men's Movement extension, but just the Fair and Balance in the Court System and show examples of MEN AND WOMEN getting ripped off.

My main objectives of this would just be the following:

- A man and woman get married. What they BUILT TOGETHER during the marriage they split at the end, and it needs to be properly documented that they both built something or for example, they both deposited money into a joint bank account. When they divorce, they take their portion and leave in relation to what was built together. You could say a Pre-Nup does this now but Pre-Nups could be thrown out during the Divorce proceedings. Plus Alimony should be all out BANNED as there's nothing stopping either partner from going out and obtaining their own employment. If Alimony is required, there MUST be something required of the partner receiving the payments in terms of providing some type of service to the person paying.

- Child support should be based on the basic shelter, food, clothing, leisure and college savings of the child from a general baseline standpoint based on the average income per capita of the US. So let's say that's $38,000 a year and the baseline for everything listed would be $12,000 a year. One parent pays $6,000 and the other pays $6,000. If both parents or one of them makes less than the average income per capita then the amount goes down, but this would be the HIGHEST that the amount goes as it's in direct relation to CARE for the child. My figures might be a little lower than needed, but the point is that the only payments are for the CARE of the child. If I make $1 million a year you can't justify $200,000 for child support payments! That's above and beyond care for the child including their college savings!

- Rape cases need MORE INVESTIGATION upfront before ANY ARRESTS ARE MADE. I want a full trial to take place and I want nothing presented on the accused in terms of a presumption of guilty. The accused remains free and can continue their lives as normal, UNTIL after the trial is done and it's been proven that the rape occurred. I want more evidence presented during the rape case other than just the word of a woman or people that might have been around the incident, I want DNA tests done, I want more examinations of forceable entry, I want a FULL background done on both, etc.

- I want this requirement to arrest someone when a DV call is made to the cops to be eliminated. If the cops show up and both have been fighting, that's one thing, if the cops show up and there's no marks, scars, etc. on either but there's been arguing, the cops can perhaps order one of them to leave for the night, etc. But no damn required arrests.

Obervations

Hey with all that being said try to stay calm when all things stack up againts you or anyone at all. One way to work pass many weird things life can throw at you is by being able to handle it with grace and not let the weirdness of it freak you out.

Tenacity said:

- Child support should be based on the basic shelter, food, clothing, leisure and college savings of the child from a general baseline standpoint based on the average income per capita of the US. So let's say that's $38,000 a year and the baseline for everything listed would be $12,000 a year. One parent pays $6,000 and the other pays $6,000. If both parents or one of them makes less than the average income per capita then the amount goes down, but this would be the HIGHEST that the amount goes as it's in direct relation to CARE for the child. My figures might be a little lower than needed, but the point is that the only payments are for the CARE of the child. If I make $1 million a year you can't justify $200,000 for child support payments! That's above and beyond care for the child including their college savings!

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I like Danger's idea of starting with one, solidly defensible position. Maybe this is it, the child support issue. I don't know if your numbers are right, but I think the logic is sound. I like the idea of a cap on child support. Some will say if the father is rich, then the child should be able to live at a higher lifestyle, but that is certainly a debateable idea, at least. Does anyone see a flaw in this idea?

Regarding alimony, I don't think you can successfully argue to just get rid of it. Because if a couple is married, and the wife stays home to have children and care for the children, while the husband is out in the world building his work experience and salary, it's still a partnership. But if they split, that leaves the husband in a much better position to earn a good wage, because the woman has sacrificed building a career for the sake of the family. Some might disagree with that, but I'm just trying to be fair here. Certainly the child support issue would be more defensible.

Danger that's a hell of a website, a lot of good information/stats. Guys, it's time we start fighting back. The only reason women are getting away with this is not because of feminism, it's because we are ALLOWING IT. Just like we allowed feminism in the first place.

I say once we get a movement started, I'm willing to bet the main detractors won't even be women, it will be feminized men. For some strange reason (and this happens in my personal life which is why if I guy isn't my business partner I don't hang around a lot of dudes my age anymore), the most feminized people are men and they do this shyt because supposedly it's going to "win" them pvssy points? I mean just the flat out a.ss kissing, never disagreeing, a woman says something totally stupid and I'm the ONLY person that calls her out on it...it's just annoying. If a girl is going to sleep with you it won't be because you kissed her a.ss all night.

We can still be MEN in this country without oppressing women, I'm not for oppressing anybody but I'm damn sure not for anyone oppressing me either.

I'm going to work on a proposal this week, post it here for you guys to see, and also lay out a game plan on how we can get the ball rolling on this. Like Danger said, let's start out with one thing first and I say let's tackle the Child Support thing first. I still say we should position it as a Fair/Balanced Court System rather than a Men's Rights type of thing. This will allow us to bring women on board who make significantly more than their baby fathers, but let's say the baby father is the custodial parent and the woman is paying out of the rear in child support (this is rare, but it's out there). We want to bring those women in on this movement as well so it's not just seen as a Men's Movement type of thing, or a right-wing type of thing, but just a Fair/Balanced Court System type of thing.

'Fair and balanced' will instantly tag you as a Fox News devotee.

I get your point and it's a good one.

But think that phrase over.

Danger said:

Once you have a single, defensible position, and the mainstream has accepted it, only then can you move to achieve more ground. Not unlike a war.

If I were to choose a battleground for the first defensible position, it would be one from this list

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Nice website, I'm adding it to my favorites. I definitely see the benefit of choosing one single topic and focusing on that - it's the only way to go, IMO.

There are some nice topics on that site, I still think I like the child support one the best. There was a good youtube video on a father who kept getting thrown in prison because he no longer made as much money as he used to, but was still expected to pay the same amount. He was completely at the mercy of his ex-wife, who decided whether or not he was in jail or not. That character was very sympathetic and demonstrated the problem well. Was that about child support, alimony, or both?

Some of those topics from that site have a lot to do with testosterone, IMO. Like 80% of sucides being men. Women actually attempt suicide more often, but men being men, when they decide something they get the job done.

I'm not at all surprised that women most often initiate domestic violence. There is no effort in society to discourage them from being aggressive (unlike men). And even if they do initiate a fight, the male will usually get the blame. They have no deterrent. This is not a good starting topic, however.

Does anyone here actually know a male rape victim?

zekko said:

Nice website, I'm adding it to my favorites. I definitely see the benefit of choosing one single topic and focusing on that - it's the only way to go, IMO.

There are some nice topics on that site, I still think I like the child support one the best. There was a good youtube video on a father who kept getting thrown in prison because he no longer made as much money as he used to, but was still expected to pay the same amount. He was completely at the mercy of his ex-wife, who decided whether or not he was in jail or not. That character was very sympathetic and demonstrated the problem well. Was that about child support, alimony, or both?

Some of those topics from that site have a lot to do with testosterone, IMO. Like 80% of sucides being men. Women actually attempt suicide more often, but men being men, when they decide something they get the job done.

I'm not at all surprised that women most often initiate domestic violence. There is no effort in society to discourage them from being aggressive (unlike men). And even if they do initiate a fight, the male will usually get the blame. They have no deterrent. This is not a good starting topic, however.

Does anyone here actually know a male rape victim?

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There's tons of them out there. In prisons, Hollywood, gays, young kids etc. Mostly by other men.

T-KidTNB said:

There's tons of them out there. In prisons, Hollywood, gays, young kids etc. Mostly by other men.

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Okay, I know a lot of young males are molested by older men. I don't think there's any lack of outrage about that. And of course we all know about prison rape. What I was wondering if anyone actually knew a man (not a child) who was raped BY A FEMALE? Or I take it that isn't the issue at all? A friend of mine was around 14 or 15 when an adult neighbor woman brought him in and taught him all about sex. Far from considering it rape, however, he still says it was one of the best things to have ever happened to him, which he is still benefiting from today.

It was more like a workplace thing for me. Woman I worked for right out of school basically cornered me and threatened me with my job if I didn't 'do' her.

She was married and not anyone I would have ever had any interest in.

Rape? No. Unwanted sexual advances and using her position power with someone that reported to her? Absolutely.

Danger but starting with that wouldn't it be easy to label the project as a Men's Rights project? The project is going to get flamed regardless, but I think that if it's structured as a Men's Rights project it will be harder to get women to join it. I think the way we can see change is through a strong structural message and having BOTH men and women back it in NUMBERS.

I still don't understand why there hasn't been a movement already? Or was there a movement and it failed? I mean this seems to be too big of an issue for nobody to get pissed off?

The Men's Rights Movement is not starting here on this forum.

Be a googletarian.