Women don't like jerks, they like guys in spite of being a jerk

Pandora · Nov 25, 2014

I was recently listening to a Tom Leykis show. Most of what he says is true but he needs to stop parroting this idea that women like jerks. The idea that women like jerks is one that needs to be retired from the manosphere. Women don’t like jerks per se. Its just that the guys that they are already deeply attracted to know that they can get away with almost anything.

These guys know that they have the girl hooked so they can act indifferently towards her. They fuc* her a few times and then they know that they can mistreat her becuz she is already very emotionally invested in them.

Most of the time these women are very attracted to these guy’s status or physical appearance already. It was not becuz he was a jerk necessarily that turned her on. Jerk just means= a guy that I really like is not reciprocating the same emotions.

Women commit the same logical fallacy. They state that men like bitc*es. There is even a popular book by that title. Women also fail to understand that men do not like bit*hes per se. It’s that men like hot chicks and hot chicks can get away with being bit*ches.

I am a casual fan of Tom Leykis but I was shocked and disappointed that he doesn’t understand this subtle but important distinction. As a word of cuation I am not sayin that women like sissy boys. You still have to be masculine and not be needy.

bmp2cpm · Nov 25, 2014

Women like men who remind them of their father. Pretty much every father is just trying to be a decent provider at best. Fathers never treat their daughters like a oneitis or let their daughter walk all over them.

Women are attacted to men they know how the play with, which means there needs to something from the man and woman's childhood that makes them click together as adults. A woman will never be attracted to a man that treats them too nice and makes them the priority of everything, all the time because their father never acted that way with them.

( . )( . ) · Nov 25, 2014

"Jerk" what does that even mean now? Is that like the dude who laughs in her face at her offer to watch a chick flick vs the one who sits there for 90 odd minutes lying to himself and her? If I was a Western woman surrounded by this current sea of emasculated cuck candidates I think I would prefer one the gynocracy would label the "jerk". If SHTF that slimey coward who sat there for 90 minutes won't do sh!t but hide under a table and he's certainly not capable of protecting me.

Pandora said:
Women commit the same logical fallacy. They state that men like bitc*es.

I doubt it. That comparison makes no sense . Women aren't b!tchy toward high value men they are trying to hook, that might come later but they certainly don't use it as an attraction tool like a man can use "the jerk" persona.

I've never even heard of a man liking women who are b!tches. If they exist I'd put them right along side those type of "men" who say they "dig a chick with ink" aka low test borderline faggots who can't appreciate a woman's body for the work of art it already naturally is. Or status jostling SJW/sh!tlib types trying to garner groupthink approval from the cathedral.

zekko · Nov 25, 2014

( . )( . ) said:
I doubt it. That comparison makes no sense . Women aren't b!tchy toward high value men they are trying to hook, that might come later but they certainly don't use it as an attraction tool like a man can use "the jerk" persona.

Nevertheless, I have seen women make the claim that guys love it when girls are b!tchy, and I have even seen a few men claim that they like b!tches. Most of the claims come from the female side though, and I certainly despise b!tchy behavior and won't tolerate it.

As for jerks, I kind of agree with the OP, with a few reservations. A quick Google search defines a "jerk" as a "contemptible, obnoxious person". I think for the most part, what attracts girls to a jerk is not specifically the jerky behavior, but maybe other attractive attributes that he may have: looks, strength, bravery, social proof, whatever.

What helps the jerk out is that he doesn't care. This means that he can approach more women because he doesn't care about rejection, he doesn't have approach anxiety. Also, he doesn't get attached too easily. Women are very attuned to this. Most of them will get turned off if a guy gets attached too quickly - they see that as a sign of the dude being unattractive and not having options.

Women, because they have so many options, tend to take longer to get attached. So they see it as a sign of weakness if the guy gets attached too quickly. That's where the jerk has the advantage, because he only really cares about himself. Long term, this is a turnoff for the women, but short term it plays to the jerk's advantage.

Tenacity · Nov 25, 2014

Pandora said:
I was recently listening to a Tom Leykis show. Most of what he says is true but he needs to stop parroting this idea that women like jerks. The idea that women like jerks is one that needs to be retired from the manosphere. Women don’t like jerks per se. Its just that the guys that they are already deeply attracted to know that they can get away with almost anything.

These guys know that they have the girl hooked so they can act indifferently towards her. They fuc* her a few times and then they know that they can mistreat her becuz she is already very emotionally invested in them.

Most of the time these women are very attracted to these guy’s status or physical appearance already. It was not becuz he was a jerk necessarily that turned her on. Jerk just means= a guy that I really like is not reciprocating the same emotions.

Women commit the same logical fallacy. They state that men like bitc*es. There is even a popular book by that title. Women also fail to understand that men do not like bit*hes per se. It’s that men like hot chicks and hot chicks can get away with being bit*ches.

I am a casual fan of Tom Leykis but I was shocked and disappointed that he doesn’t understand this subtle but important distinction. As a word of cuation I am not sayin that women like sissy boys. You still have to be masculine and not be needy.

Ehh, I don't know man.

For one, let's define what we mean by "jerk". I assume you are referring to a guy that's arrogant, out spoken, blunt, and might occasionally do things referred to as "out of pocket" towards the girl.

I assume you aren't speaking of a "thug" which I refer to as men who are engaged in illegal underground gangbanging activity OR who just frequently break the law for the hell out of it.

With that said, if you are a REAL NATURAL MAN, I think you should (quite honestly) be a Jerk most of the time. The reason I say that is because as a REAL MAN, you have to take a stand on what you believe in, as well as defend that which belongs to you. Also when people are trying to SCREW you over, you have to stand up and challenge the crap.

Well, that's what a Jerk does. A lot of times the Jerk just gets bad press because they only focus on the actions the Jerk is doing, and doesn't focus on the out of pocket shyt the woman is doing (or has done).

Plus the part about not being "needy" I have no idea what you mean, sounds like you are using "seduction talk" lingo. What does that mean? If I don't NEED something from the girl, why is she in my life? No, I do NEED something from her and EXPECT it....I want her to be attractive, soft spoken, provide sex and go for the ride with me to enjoy the world I have established. If she can't fulfill my NEEDS, she can hit the curb.

The Thug on the other hand, is something TOTALLY different. This is usually a bum, a loser, a felon, gangsta, etc., that really doesn't have much going on in his life from a conventional standpoint of a career, education, etc.

The Thug can also have qualities of the Jerk, but a Jerk doesn't necessarily have qualities of a Thug.

In terms of what women prefer, it depends on the woman. If she's a ratchet chick out of a hood in Flint, MI she wants a Thug and most likely could care less about your career and education status. If she's a chick out of BloomField Hills, Michigan (the suburbs) she most likely wants a Jerk with his career and education in line. If she's a golddigger she most likely wants a guy with no spine with his career and education in line.

I'm a Jerk, not a Thug. I'm outspoken, if something is bullshyt I'm calling it bullshyt, I stand for what I believe in, I walk with Integrity, and I go after what I'm passionate about. I actually HATE Thugs, especially seeing as though I'm a Black Man. I think IDIOTS like that give me as an Educated Black Man a bad name through consistently doing DUMB shyt and then having the covering of Black Civil Rights Leaders to march for them as a result of getting fvcked up by cops or "white people" for their DUMB actions.....just because they share the same skin color....even though they don't share the same Character.

Pandora · Nov 25, 2014

bmp2cpm said:
Women like men who remind them of their father. Pretty much every father is just trying to be a decent provider at best. Fathers never treat their daughters like a oneitis or let their daughter walk all over them.

Exactly. I made a post about this a while back. A girl from a decent 2 family home wants a guy that subconsciously reminds her of father. Fathers are not jerks to their daughter but a masculine father is not a push over either. I have noticed that these women are the most predictable and the most logical to game. They respond to just normal masculine behavior.

With these women you dont have to "neg hit" or put on the dark triad traits like you do with more dysfunctional women who never knew their fathers. The women that have a great relationship with their fathers actually feel like they deserve a sweet guy. They actually kinda like a nice guy with a touch of masculine.

Much of the dating problems we see in American today is because of the single mother epidemic. When girls dont have a positive male role model (father) their neural circuitry gets all messed up. They become attracted to ridiculous things that they are not supposed to be attracted to.

Pandora · Nov 25, 2014

( . )( . ) said:
I've never even heard of a man liking women who are b!tches. If they exist I'd put them right along side those type of "men" who say they "dig a chick with ink" aka low test borderline faggots who can't appreciate a woman's body for the work of art it already naturally is. Or status jostling SJW/sh!tlib types trying to garner groupthink approval from the cathedral.

Hey man i agree it doesnt make sense. Thats what i am saying women have it wrong. But A TON of women believe this. There is a BEST SELLING book titled Why Men Love *****es: A Woman's Guide. I have heard many women say this to me also. Men like *****es blah blah.

Its the same thing as when man say girls like jerks. Its oversimplifying a complex social phenomenon.

Pandora · Nov 25, 2014

zekko said:
What helps the jerk out is that he doesn't care. This means that he can approach more women because he doesn't care about rejection, he doesn't have approach anxiety. Also, he doesn't get attached too easily. Women are very attuned to this. Most of them will get turned off if a guy gets attached too quickly - they see that as a sign of the dude being unattractive and not having options.

Zekko i agree with you bro. When guys first enter the seduction community they even go out of their way to neg hit and actually be a mean person to girls they like (Tom Leykis). Well this often backfires on them becuz the initial attraction is not there. A neg hit without a deep level attraction will come off as insecure and just mean.

I spent a couple years of my life when i first was introduced to the seduction community being mean and a "jerk" to girls. You know what happened? They thought i was insecure and just weird.

This is because its not the jerk qualities they like. Jerk qualities only amplify an already burning attraction for a guy. If you take a guy that a women is indifferent to and give him jerk qualities, it will not make her more attracted to him. It will only make her temporarily curious as to why he is acting differently. This is not real attraction.

Pandora · Nov 25, 2014

Tenacity said:
I'm a Jerk, not a Thug. I'm outspoken, if something is bullshyt I'm calling it bullshyt, I stand for what I believe in, I walk with Integrity, and I go after what I'm passionate about. I actually HATE Thugs, especially seeing as though I'm a Black Man. I think IDIOTS like that give me as an Educated Black Man a bad name through consistently doing DUMB shyt and then having the covering of Black Civil Rights Leaders to march for them as a result of getting fvcked up by cops or "white people" for their DUMB actions.....just because they share the same skin color....even though they don't share the same Character.

Hey as a black guy i totally agree with this statement. I hate thugs with a passion. Let me explain what i am sayin. I hate the fact that jerk is now synonymous with a guy with a back bone. Lets stop calling manly qualities jerk qualities.

Lets define jerk first. Many seduction guys define jerk as a guy who is obnoxious with women. Neg hits them. Gives back handed compliments and treat them badly. They think that this will create attraction. More often than not it back fires. Now if she is already attracted to you, it helps. Jerk behavior is like spice. Use it sparingly and only to stoke the flames of an already present attraction.

Without a girl already being attracted to you, being mean or a "jerk" really has no effect. I get mad at guys that sell being a jerk as some formula to create attraction in a woman. In fact if you play hard to get and act aloof and "jerky" to a women that does not already think you are attractive you will get nothing.

I see so many guys act like azz holes to girls trying to show off and be a jerk. Behind the guys back the girls tell me that he is a "azz hole and unpleasant". These girls are in my bed telling me that at my party. They dont touch that guy. The think he has a weird social dysfunction.

Pandora · Nov 25, 2014

GettinMyMindRight said:
Good post. I don't think I come across as a jerk with women. I do, however, not reciprocate early on in relationships with them.
.

This what i am saying. You can be a nice dude without being a little needy codependent lovey dovey man child lol. You have found the middle ground. These girls that you get in a relationship with already liked you. Now you being slightly distant is just the icing on the cake. But in seduction they put the cart before the horse.

They say hey that girl is attracted to a guy that treats her like sh*t, so women must like jerks. NOO!!!!! She already liked him becuz she thought he was cute or funny. Now he is just taking advantage of her being a total AFC.

People dont realize that a lot of so called jerks actually do really nice stuff for girls in the beginning of a courtship. The bad boy that treats everyone bad except her type of thing.

Mike32ct · Nov 25, 2014

I agree with the OP.

If she is already attracted to you, she will tolerate jerk behavior.

But being an as$hole that she isn't attracted to will never work.

Otherwise, wouldn't being an ugly, bitter, rejected as$hole who hates women get you laid lol? Of course not.

Tenacity · Nov 25, 2014

Brad,

I agree with just about everything you said except the "challenge" part. Maybe it's the women I date, but if I don't make it BLUNT AND CLEAR that I want the chick and instead play games, or if I'm always unavailable....then the chicks tend to lose interest. I think you guys are over-thinking this honestly. I think you just need to present yourself as the following:

- Take care of yourself physically. Fix your hair, workout, nice smell, nice clothes, wear contacts if needed. When a girl looks at you they should say for the most part, that you "look okay" or "are handsome" or "are cute" or something along those lines. Obviously all won't say that but you should hear this consistently.

- Fix your finances. Make at least $40k - $55k a year in a low cost of living area, if you are in a high cost of living area then you need about $60k - $75k a year due to the higher cost.

- Get a decent looking car and a decent looking place to stay. Keep both of them clean.

- Know how to start, carry on and lead a conversation in an interesting way. This only comes through PRACTICE.

- Learn how to be charismatic in one way or another, which is knowing how to make her laugh, being a "pervert" but not being "disgusting" with it but doing it in a way that actually makes her smile, etc.

I mean that's really all that it is guys. Of course you can add "being good in bed" to this list as well.

Once you have done all of this, now it just comes down to the numbers game. If you approach let's say 20 girls, you should be converting about 20% to numbers at minimum which is 4 numbers. You work those numbers with your phone game, you turn those 4 into 2 solid dates, and you should fvck at least one of the dates. After you fvck her, you go out again and before you know it you guys are in a relationship.

It's not that hard.

Scaramouche · Nov 25, 2014

Dear Pandora,
From my own sometimes bitter experience I can assure you that A Woman with say ten scores on the Board will generally open her legs for an Over confident style of jerk...Put them at a Table or Dance with him and a glazed,misty look comes into their eyes,if he plays his cards right She is his!

dasein · Nov 25, 2014

The "jerk" debate is pure semantics IMO, a consequence of gynocracy. A "jerk" is someone who strands you or doesn't show up at all, pukes in your car. Jerks don't ever bring or buy beer or food. They take advantage or are just inconsistent and self-absorbed. That's a real jerk.

When people say "jerk" in gynoculture today with respect to men and women, it translates into "man who has a balanced, reasonable perspective about his own and others' interactions," or "not pushover," "not always doing things to make women happy, keeping himself happy."

"No, we aren't going to have a two hour discussion about people I don't know or care about just because you are in emotional dump mode, get your piece said and I'll sympathize within reason." "No, we aren't going to stay or leave just when -you- want to." "No I'm not going to see Grease or Rent or whatever this weekend." "No, I'm not going to meet your family after dating a month."

"What a jerk!" NO, that's NOT being a jerk, that's being a reasonable person. Women are more attracted to men with healthy self-esteem, concern for their time and others', men with backbone and a rich life independent of women.

Lexington · Nov 25, 2014

Most jerks possess attractive qualities: they are self-assured, they don't supplicate, they are more invested in themselves then women and they are not afraid to put a woman in her place. You don't have to be a jerk to possess these qualities, but jerks are attractive to women because they have them.

It's not that the "jerkiness" itself is attractive to women, but the qualities associated with being a jerk are attractive.

Lexington · Nov 25, 2014

dasein said:
The "jerk" debate is pure semantics IMO, a consequence of gynocracy. A "jerk" is someone who strands you or doesn't show up at all, pukes in your car. Jerks don't ever bring or buy beer or food. They take advantage or are just inconsistent and self-absorbed. That's a real jerk.

When people say "jerk" in gynoculture today with respect to men and women, it translates into "man who has a balanced, reasonable perspective about his own and others' interactions," or "not pushover," "not always doing things to make women happy, keeping himself happy."

"No, we aren't going to have a two hour discussion about people I don't know or care about just because you are in emotional dump mode, get your piece said and I'll sympathize within reason." "No, we aren't going to stay or leave just when -you- want to." "No I'm not going to see Grease or Rent or whatever this weekend." "No, I'm not going to meet your family after dating a month."

"What a jerk!" NO, that's NOT being a jerk, that's being a reasonable person. Women are more attracted to men with healthy self-esteem, concern for their time and others', men with backbone and a rich life independent of women.

Well said. Repped.

A lot of guys are also labelled jerks by Betas. Heck, I've been guilty of the same thing. Back before I discovered this site, I used to dote on a girl. I'd help her out with whatever she needed, listened attentively to whatever she said and gave away my time for nothing. Of course, this resulted in me getting zero action. I wish I could go back in time and b*tchslap that younger version of myself.

One night, I took her out to a bar. A guy walked up to her on the dance floor, pulled her in and started grinding on her. Later, he shoved her against the wall and started groping her. Of course, this led to him taking her home that night. Inevitably, the girl was pumped and dumped. We would later commiserate about what an "@$$hole" that guy was.

In reality, he was just going after what he wanted. He wanted to fvck that girl and so he went after her and did it. For all I know, he could be a really cool guy.

Lexington · Nov 25, 2014

bradd80 said:
The OP is just another example of men once again trying to rationalize female behavior and trying to make sense out of female behavior that really doesn't make any sense no matter how much you try to analyze it.

Women want some chase, some drama, some intrigue. If it's too easy for her to get the guy, she'll start to think, "Wait, he just fell into my lap. This is fishy. Maybe he thinks that I'm too good for him. Cool. I'm too good for him. Wait, if I'm too good for him, then that means I could do better. Next!"

The allure of the jerk is that he is an emotionally unavailable guy that doesn't think the girl is worth committing to.. in the mind of the girl, at least not yet anyway, which can be construed as, "you're not good enough for me," which automatically makes the girl want to be "good enough," so this is when she starts chasing the guy, even though she damn well knows that she shouldn't be.

If you get to know women deep down, they will begin to reveal to you things like "i liked him because he was c0cky", "he treated me badly but i was always so turned on by him", "the sex was so hot", or "something about the way he treated me made me so wet." Often, they will flat out tell you that they like bad boys, or they will say something like "I'm into bad boys but they're no good for me now I'm trying to find myself a nice guy."

Women love jerks for these reasons:

1. *******s aren't boring
2. *******s are confident.
3. *******s are generally brave and like to fight. And what woman doesn't dream about a guy fighting over her?
4. *******s are selfish: they take the initiative and make a choice - almost always it's what ever they want to do. How many times have you made a woman's panties wet by saying to her "I'm not sure what I want to do, why don't you pick?" Exactly.
5. women have daddy issues, they grew up with a jerk as a father figure so the look for the same quality in their mates.
6. as already explained, women love a challenge. They love trying to be the one woman who turns an @sshole around and makes him the loving nice guy. But how many times have you actually seen this happen? Very, very few if ever. But remember in this case, it's the journey not the final outcome that is so attractive to women: it's the adventure of taming the beast, of trying to turn someone around and getting the credit for it.

Men often refuse to believe women love jerks. A lot of guys usually can't believe that women would be so non-sensical as to actually be attracted to a guy who mistreats them. I've seen men try to apply their own male logic in order to make sense out of female attraction, which is a very common mistake. Even long time veterans on this very website sometimes refuse to believe that women would actually be attracted to jerks, using male logic to reasonably conclude that "it just does not make sense that a woman would actually be attracted to a man because they are badly treated by them. Therefore, the answer must be that women love their men despite their jerk behavior not because of it."

But what they fail to realize is that women don't think like men: you can't use male logic in order to try to understand female attraction. As Pairplus said, what Pook stated here more than a decade ago is still just as true today as it ever was.

Take a look at chimps and gorillas. Who gets all the females? The nice, sweet ape that is accommodating to everyone, or the big bad silverback that will kick your ass for even looking at him wrong?

We evolved in very different circumstances from what we live in now. Back then, being tough, vicious and aggressive were important for survival. The triggers for that primitive part of our brain have not changed.

This is a maladaptive trait in modern times. Women will go for douchebags who make their pvssies wet while ignoring stable providers. It's rather like how our craving for high fat/sugar foods is responsible for the obesity epidemic....high carb and high fat foods were extremely valuable when food was scarce.

Trunks · Nov 26, 2014

Yup:

http://www.girlschase.com/content/how-be-alpha-male-without-becoming-stereotype

RangerMIke · Nov 26, 2014

GettinMyMindRight said:
Good post. I don't think I come across as a jerk with women. I do, however, not reciprocate early on in relationships with them.

I think a man should indicate to a woman how he feels about her through his actions. For example, I don't think saying "I Love You" in response to her telling you is a smart move.

I feel like, in the early stages, if she realizes she already has you, she's gone.

I completely agree with this. Women REALLY don't care what you say, they judge you by your actions. When a women tells me "I love you" I SELDOM say this back to them... Instead I'll say, "Come show me how much". Then I do things for her that indicates how I feel.

If you love a woman, believe me, she knows. She can read you like a book. They ALWAYS know. A jerk might be a jerk, but if he genuinely loves a woman she knows, and if she loves him back, the realtionship will last longer than it should.

But jerky behavor by men eventually turns her off and the relationship eventually ends. Jerks are typically very confident, which women are attracted to, and they present a challege to women, which causes women to try harder... which strenthens attachment. But sooner or later, she will run into a man that is confident and present a challege who is NOT a jerk, and she will dump the jerk for the new dude.

Another factor is that women fall out of love slowly, and usually stay in relationships until they actually hate their ex. Men will usually leave a relationship as soon as their attraction drops, unless they are married and have kids, mortgages, or any other logical reason for staying. Most men still have SOME feeling for a women he breaks up with. Not women, if a women kicks you to the curb it's over... you might try to go back but it SELDOM works out, unless a lot of time has passed after the break, because you are NOT starting with a clean slate.

It is possible for a woman to stay with a guy that she REALLY has no feelings for any more but when she breaks things off it is done. They might stay around for awhile, but really what they are looking for is the next best option. Ever notice when a women breaks up with you that she is dating someone else REALLY fast... I used to be shocked by this until I realized, that this dude was always waiting in the wings, I think most women always have a plan B. When the time was right she gets out of your car and into his....

Hey... this is how women are they are ALWAYS looking for better options.

zekko · Nov 26, 2014

Tenacity said:
With that said, if you are a REAL NATURAL MAN, I think you should (quite honestly) be a Jerk most of the time. The reason I say that is because as a REAL MAN, you have to take a stand on what you believe in, as well as defend that which belongs to you. Also when people are trying to SCREW you over, you have to stand up and challenge the crap.

Well, that's what a Jerk does. A lot of times the Jerk just gets bad press because they only focus on the actions the Jerk is doing, and doesn't focus on the out of pocket shyt the woman is doing (or has done)

This is one of the problems that I have with the community. I have always thought, and I always WILL think, that standing up for yourself is an admirable trait. The word "jerk" is a DEROGATORY term. It means a contemptible, obnoxious person. Yet when the community describes what jerk behavior is, they list ADMIRABLE, manly behavior, which makes no sense.

Tyler (Owen) from RSD said that even asking for a phone number is "jerk" behavior. Because supposedly you have to be a jerk to think some chick might be interested in you. I certainly can't agree with that. How does having the balls to go for what you want make you a jerk? The community is @ss backwards on this whole thing. Don't be a jerk, nobody likes a jerk. Be a MAN.

Tenacity said:
Plus the part about not being "needy" I have no idea what you mean

"Needy" basically means you don't have any options.

RangerMIke said:
But jerky behavor by men eventually turns her off and the relationship eventually ends. Jerks are typically very confident, which women are attracted to, and they present a challege to women, which causes women to try harder... which strenthens attachment. But sooner or later, she will run into a man that is confident and present a challege who is NOT a jerk, and she will dump the jerk for the new dude.

Agreed, women may find a guy's confidence attractive in the short term, but over time if he is a jerk she is going to get sick of that real quick and dump his @ss. But PUA gurus teach short term dating strategies, which is one reason they push the "jerk game" idea.

Women don't get attracted to a guy because he is a jerk. None of them think "Oh, that guy is such a jerk, I love him". They get attracted to him, then she finds out he wasn't what she was expecting. THEN she decides he is a jerk. Once she dumps the guy, THAT's when he becomes a jerk.

Also, if a "nice guy" wants a girl, but some other dude gets her, then the "nice guy" is going to be butthurt and call that guy a jerk. Again, that's a big selling point of the PUA business because it plays into that. "I'm a good guy, but she chose that douchebag, that proves women just like jerks". But the problem was the guy didn't have enough attractive qualities to attract her, or didn't know how to show them.

Then, once that guy gets into pickup and joins the community, and a guy gets the girl he wanted, he now calls that guy an AFC. "That AFC stole my girl!" lol.

Women don't like jerks, they like guys in spite of being a jerk

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