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Kindness as a character trait, being alpha and maintaining frame

MOTU

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I am interested in discussing how we can develop positive character traits such as kindness, patience and generosity while still maintaining frame and a masculine identity.

It seems that some equate being masculine with being rude, abrasive or selfish. I just can't accept those things. I do understand that coming across as weak or needy kills attraction, but aren't gentleman, warrior poets and statesmen both refined and manly at the same time?

So Let's talk about how we can be men of character and alphas at the same time. I'll start by suggesting that focusing on strength, self confidence and self control we can maintain a masculine frame without being brash.


Thoughts?
 

hithard

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In my experience people equate kindness with weakness. Which Pi$$ess me off to no end. It's unfortunate that a lot of people attempt to take advantage of positive character traits.
Sometimes just saying "No" is the strongest thing you can do.
 

Desdinova

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I've been experimenting with the "kindness" trait as of late when it comes to dating and relationships, especially when it comes to giving her things (even if the things you're giving her didn't cost you anything). Previously, I was suppressing it when it came to dating, but I've recently been pulling it out to see if it would compliment masculinity in a "provider" sense, or subtract from it.

I've deemed it as NOT complimentary. It actually DOES take away from the masculinity. The only use for kindness (in the sense of being a provider) is to occasionally do it as a spontaneous gesture to cause emotional fluctuation and give her reasons to affirm remaining with you. She'll see it as a hidden "good side" that she should attempt to bring out more. It also gives her reason to doubt her friends and family when they say that you're an a55hole.

Patience however, is a fantastic trait to have. When she's being demanding, angry, silent, and attempting to manipulate you with sex, your patience will trump her behaviour. Giving her a "Yeah whatever, feel free to chat when you're in a better mood" and walking away displays power.
 

TheCWord

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Desdinova said:
I've been experimenting with the "kindness" trait as of late when it comes to dating and relationships, especially when it comes to giving her things (even if the things you're giving her didn't cost you anything). Previously, I was suppressing it when it came to dating, but I've recently been pulling it out to see if it would compliment masculinity in a "provider" sense, or subtract from it.

I've deemed it as NOT complimentary. It actually DOES take away from the masculinity. The only use for kindness (in the sense of being a provider) is to occasionally do it as a spontaneous gesture to cause emotional fluctuation and give her reasons to affirm remaining with you. She'll see it as a hidden "good side" that she should attempt to bring out more. It also gives her reason to doubt her friends and family when they say that you're an a55hole.

Patience however, is a fantastic trait to have. When she's being demanding, angry, silent, and attempting to manipulate you with sex, your patience will trump her behaviour. Giving her a "Yeah whatever, feel free to chat when you're in a better mood" and walking away displays power.

(TLDR summary of the below: I don't believe that being kind and being alpha/maintaining frame are mutually exclusive. As long as we are not pus$ies and are happy with ourselves, we can be free to enjoy relationships free of any strategy - and the girls who require a never ending strategy are low quality.)


Hey Des,

Your experiment raises two questions.

1) Is true kindness something that can be experimented with? It has been my view that kindness comes naturally, almost involuntarily, so if you're using kindness as a strategy - is the feedback you're getting on kindness really accurate?

2) Is a woman who will lose attraction to you when you display kindness (not in excess) really the type of woman you want to be with? Won't you grow tired of trying to be a mystery and the right amount of aloof all the time? Seems like a relationship that way will always feel like you're in a game of chess and you'll be worried that one false move and game's over. It just sounds exhausting.

The way I see it, all the advice on this site can be distilled down into four words: don't be a pus$y.

The DJ commandments are necessary over corrections we all needed when we first came here as betas. Without putting deliberate effort into being a mystery and the right amount of aloof, we might revert back to our old failed ways of being needy and too feminine.

And if you're prone to giving more love than you're getting in return, maybe you need those checks. But I think the narrative on here goes too far when it is implied that you can't be kind to your long term girlfriend or wife except for when it makes strategic sense to do so.

In an LTR, as in life in general, I just want to "be." I don't want to have to constantly be checking a play book or worried that a nice gesture could cause someone I love to lose attraction to me. If that were ever to happen, it would be pretty easy to walk away from that girl. "Oh, you're someone who I'm going to have to feel like I'm playing a perpetual cat and mouse game with the rest of my life? See ya later."

Any girl will lose attraction to you if you're being exceedingly nice or needy or always giving gifts and compliments. But only low quality girls would actually lose interest in you if you like to live your life as a naturally kind person. And let's face it, there are more low quality girls than high quality ones, and guys in this site in particular tend to attract low quality girls - probably because a lot of the DJ Bible is designed to attract those types of women (save for Anti Dump's machine). So we hear a lot more stories about them and experience them a lot ourselves. But there are girls out there who won't make you feel like you have to experiment with kindness.

Sure, you have to stay vigilant. Be a challenge. Always make sure you're not slipping back into old beta ways. But to keep modifying your behavior out of fear of losing a girl? That sounds beta to me.
 

Colossus

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I think being "alpha" in real life (i.e....being sustainably alpha in marriage, family, adulthood...not just banging club skanks in their 20's) is really just about having a broad scope of confidence in yourself, and having firm boundaries. Applying this will bring leadership skills.

I don't buy the tired forum argument that you need to be an assh0le to succeed in life. You really don't. You just need to have the balls to stand up for yourself and your boundaries. And so much of your happiness with women is DIRECTLY related to your selection of them. Some b!tches need to be constantly gamed and managed....that is no way to live IMO. If you feel like you always need to out-strategize the woman you are with, you have chosen poorly and should move on.

Remember that Teddy Rooselvelt quote? Speak softly and carry a big stick. Be as kind as possible to people without being used. And when they do try to abuse you...pull out that big stick and pound them into oblivion.
 

Bible_Belt

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To be fair to the Bible:

Song of Songs 7:7-8 (NIV)

Your stature is like that of the palm, and your breasts like clusters of fruit.
I said, "I will climb the palm tree; I will take hold of its fruit.


That is pretty good advice for how to do the opposite of dry up pvssy.
 

Tenacity

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It's about having the proper balance and priorities, it's not about an extreme one-sidedness. As a MAN, you should be able to have those character traits you discussed such as patience, being kind, having integrity, and being trustworthy, while at the same time you should also have aggressiveness, ambition, a backbone, and wisdom character traits. It just depends on when you display the particular trait.

- When you are being SCREWED over at work, it's not time to be patient and kind, it's time to get aggressive and show your back bone to display you won't tolerate that shyt.

- When you are dealing with a client or a prospective client, it's time to show your integrity, credibility, kindness and customer service skills. But when that client or prospective client is being a dyck, it's time to display some backbone.

- When you are dealing with a chick, for the most part you should be displaying your romantic and charming side, UNTIL that chick starts to cross boundaries or throw out shyt tests then it's time to display some backbone.

You should be a man of morals and values, you should STAND for something and not care about the consequences of what you believe in. No woman, group or society should be able to easily influence you to change those beliefs.

Now, granted, most people will STILL refer to you as a "Dyck" just because by being the balanced man I pointed out above and at times having to call out bullshyt or walk off from bullshyt, they will label you as an arrogant prick. But so what. Right is right, wrong is wrong, and as a MAN your job is to stand for what's right no matter if it's popular or not.

We don't have Men like this anymore in America for the most part, a man will hand over his balls to a woman if he thinks it's going to gain him pvssy points. It's why women have taken over the Courts and the Family structure, it's because was as MEN have allowed them to and didn't even put up a fvcking fight to sustain it.
 

Warrior74

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Kindness? Oh you mean the thing that people keep thinking is weakness.

I developed that trait as a christian beta boy. Now those traits are reserved for my daughter and puppies. Occasionally make an appearance for adults but with much bytching, moaning and anger to cover the kindness.
 

zekko

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MOTU said:
I am interested in discussing how we can develop positive character traits such as kindness, patience and generosity while still maintaining frame and a masculine identity.

It seems that some equate being masculine with being rude, abrasive or selfish. I just can't accept those things. I do understand that coming across as weak or needy kills attraction, but aren't gentleman, warrior poets and statesmen both refined and manly at the same time?
Great topic. IMO, kindness, patience, and generosity (or anything else, for that matter), should always come from a place of strength, with a masculine frame and identity.

If you think about it, being rude, abrasive, and selfish is more likely to come from a place of weakness than strength.

Regarding Desdinova's experiment, I would say this:
1) Kindness isn't the same thing as giving her stuff.
2) Like CWord says, if you are experimenting with kindness as a strategy, you are not being genuine. It's more like being the stereotypical "Nice Guy", where you are trying to be nice because you want something in return.
3) If a girl is repulsed by a genuine act of kindness, I would call that a red flag, a serious indication that girl is not worth your time.
 

guru1000

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Alpha/Beta is not act-based, rather it’s motive-derived. Most people erroneously attribute significance to the "acts" themselves, as opposed to the "underlying motives" which incite the act. For example, you could be “alpha” buying flowers for your gf/wife as a reward for consistent good behavior, or contrariwise, you could be “beta” if the act were committed with the intent to supplicate. Same act, different motive, different context.

In the alpha/beta spectrum, acts have no relevance; the underlying motives do. You can be kind, generous, forgiving and patient, but always ask yourself from which context you are operating?
 

zekko

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guru1000 said:
Alpha/Beta is not act-based, rather it’s motive-derived. Most people erroneously attribute significance to the "acts" themselves, as opposed to the "underlying motives" which incite the act. For example, you could be “alpha” buying flowers for your gf/wife as a reward for consistent good behavior, or contrariwise, you could be “beta” if the act were committed with the intent to supplicate. Same act, different motive, different context.

In the alpha/beta spectrum, acts have no relevance; the underlying motives do. You can be kind, generous, forgiving and patient, but always ask yourself from which context you are operating?
Fantastic post, great point.
It's all about what frame you're coming from.
 

Desdinova

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Your experiment raises two questions.

1) Is true kindness something that can be experimented with? It has been my view that kindness comes naturally, almost involuntarily, so if you're using kindness as a strategy - is the feedback you're getting on kindness really accurate?
I believe it can. Remember, we're not in the dark about dating. We KNOW what attracts women and why it happens.

I'm a generally kind person by nature. For every woman I date, I'm constantly having to suppress it. When I let it come out, IL drops. It's not even a desperate level of kindness; I'm generally confident, and non-supplicating with my women. I don't let them walk all over me, and I'm not being kind to them to get into their pvssy. I don't have to because I KNOW how to do it without kindness.

My kindness comes from a genuinely thoughful standpoint, and it bites me in the arse every time. I NEED to suppress it in order to keep the IL up. I have a difficult time being rough with women in the bedroom because that's not kindness. However, the results are so fvcking worth it.

2) Is a woman who will lose attraction to you when you display kindness (not in excess) really the type of woman you want to be with?
From what I've seen, it's not the woman's choice to lose interest. It's more of an automatic reaction.

The bottom line is being kind should be left as an occasional event. Being confident, egotistical, selfish, and aggressive is more attractive to the woman. The "provider" trait plays a very small part in attraction.
 

TheCWord

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Desdinova said:
I believe it can. Remember, we're not in the dark about dating. We KNOW what attracts women and why it happens.

I'm a generally kind person by nature. For every woman I date, I'm constantly having to suppress it. When I let it come out, IL drops. It's not even a desperate level of kindness; I'm generally confident, and non-supplicating with my women. I don't let them walk all over me, and I'm not being kind to them to get into their pvssy. I don't have to because I KNOW how to do it without kindness.

My kindness comes from a genuinely thoughful standpoint.
I dunno, man. You sound like a great guy by this definition. I don't doubt that you have encountered women who have had that automatic reaction of losing interest to your kindness, but I would hate for you to have to repress what I think are very good qualities.

When you die, I'm sure you will want to be able to look back on your life and say "for better or worse, I was myself." Even if that means none of your relationships last longer than 8 months, at least you were living fully and honestly.

If you were to continue your experiment - not of dropping kindness in like it came from a test tube, but just from being yourself - I wouldn't be surprised if, one day, you found a woman who was turned on rather than turned off by your natural kindness.

And maybe you won't. Maybe being naturally kind is 100% a recipe for disaster with women. But at least you won't go through life like this:

"I want to do something nice for my wife today."
*checks log book*
"Ah, I can't. I was already nice to her last week."
 

Desdinova

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but I would hate for you to have to repress what I think are very good qualities.
I don't repress it when I'm around other guys or clients. It's a very good quality to have, but it just doesn't make the vagina tingle.

When you die, I'm sure you will want to be able to look back on your life and say "for better or worse, I was myself."
No, I'll want to look back and say "Despite all the bull5hit I encountered, I kept myself going, made myself better, and enjoyed the 5hit out of my life"

Even if that means none of your relationships last longer than 8 months, at least you were living fully and honestly.
I live my life very honestly. From very early on, I developed what I'd call an "adaptive" personality. Basically, I adapt my personality to suit the person I'm interacting with, whether it be a client, a drunk guy at the bar, an angry chick, and even my parents. It allows me to put myself on the same level as the person I'm interacting with. That being said, I make very few enemies and never experience situations of high hostility. The only enemies I have are guys who know I've fvcked their exes, or who are afraid I will fvck their gfs.

I wouldn't be surprised if, one day, you found a woman who was turned on rather than turned off by your natural kindness.
The only way I could see that happening is if I encountered a woman who has been sheltered all of her life. The previous AFCs in a woman's life are the ones who spoil kindness, since they use it as a tool to get into a woman's vagina. Not only that, society and media promote this "fact". I can't count how many times I've heard the phrase "oh, he's just trying to get into your pants." If you hear it enough times, you become brainwashed by it.

"I want to do something nice for my wife today."
*checks log book*
"Ah, I can't. I was already nice to her last week."
I agree that it sucks to live like that, but it needs to be done in order to keep her IL high.
 

bmp2cpm

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Kindness is essential to any type of relationship. Evolution has programmed women to seek mates who show them kindness. Women are all about men's resources and kindness is the ultimate backstage pass to a man's resources, so all women are programmed to believe. Kindness is also a good way for a man to get sex.

From Evolution of Desire by David Buss, based on numerous scientific studies:

"Mimicking what women want in a husband by showing kindness and sincere interest, in short, is also an effective technique for luring women into brief sexual liaisons."

"Kindness, in other words, signals the ability and willingness of a potential mate to commit energy and resources selflessly to a partner."

"Requiring love and kindness helps women to solve the critical adaptive mating problem of securing the commitment of resources from a man that can aid in the survival and reproduction of her offspring."
 

Desdinova

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bmp2cpm said:
From Evolution of Desire by David Buss, based on numerous scientific studies:

"Mimicking what women want in a husband by showing kindness and sincere interest, in short, is also an effective technique for luring women into brief sexual liaisons."

"Kindness, in other words, signals the ability and willingness of a potential mate to commit energy and resources selflessly to a partner."

"Requiring love and kindness helps women to solve the critical adaptive mating problem of securing the commitment of resources from a man that can aid in the survival and reproduction of her offspring."
If that were truly the case, nice guys would be married off extremely quickly. Instead, they flood websites such as loveshack.org wondering why their kindness has left them companion-free.

If that were a book I owned, it would end up in the fireplace.
 

zekko

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Desdinova said:
I believe it can. Remember, we're not in the dark about dating. We KNOW what attracts women and why it happens.
From Mark Manson's book Models: A Comprehensive Guide to Attracting Women:

Anyone who claims that they have the
definitive answer to what drives and motivates female attraction and
sexual arousal is lying to you. The jury is still out. Psychologists,
sexologists and biologists have been studying it for over a century,
and there’s still not a clear answer.


I do believe that in spite of all the theorizing and field testing, there still remains an element of mystery in this subject.

Desdinova said:
I'm a generally kind person by nature. For every woman I date, I'm constantly having to suppress it. When I let it come out, IL drops.
I have not observed this myself. I tend to think of things like kindness as neutral traits. They aren't an attraction factor, but they don't repel either.

I think it's very likely, Des, that there is something about you personally, that gets this particular reaction. I'm a very strong believer that we are all different. Like myself, for instance, I am very aloof and indifferent naturally. Too much so, to be honest. So for me to take the common advice "Be indifferent" would be disastrous for me, because that would put me just way too far over the top to be useful.

I've noticed from reading your posts, that you seem to have crafted a persona to attract women. For example, you've said you try to lower your interest in a girl so that it matches about 2/3 of her interest. Same thing with compliments and the like. That's cool as it works for you apparently.

For me, one thing I am very adamant about is that I have to be, very firmly and even stubbornly, myself. If there is a trait that is supposed to be attractive to females, if it is congruent with myself, if it doesn't go against the core of my being, I will integrate that trait into myself, let it become a part of me. But I never put on an act. It may very well be that I would attract more women if I did have an act. But this way at least I know that the women I do attract are to attract to me for myself, and not some imaginary person I have created.

Desdinova said:
I have a difficult time being rough with women in the bedroom because that's not kindness.
Whoa now, the bedroom is a different thing entirely. Women want to be dominated in the bedroom, really all sex is dominance and submission. It is a kindness in the bedroom to take any care in pleasing her at all. And there is that old saying "You have to be cruel to be kind" lol.
 

Desdinova

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zekko said:
Whoa now, the bedroom is a different thing entirely. Women want to be dominated in the bedroom, really all sex is dominance and submission. It is a kindness in the bedroom to take any care in pleasing her at all. And there is that old saying "You have to be cruel to be kind" lol.
I'm aware that it's a different ballgame, but I have problems distinguishing between the two. I've done the hair pulling, the ass whacking, and it's always forced. Even though they enjoy the 5hit out of it, it's always forced. As an AFC, I was thanking the woman for sex.

It's really difficult to suppress the kindness. It's totally in my nature, but it just doesn't work when it comes to seduction. I can unintentionally spoil the woman with it just because I love doing it, but too much always ruins the situation.
 

zekko

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bmp2cpm said:
"Kindness, in other words, signals the ability and willingness of a potential mate to commit energy and resources selflessly to a partner."
See, now this is interesting. I have heard this quote before. Actually, I think there is a lot of truth to it, and it only makes sense. But to answer Desdinovas critique about "nice guys", you have to add the caveat that women want strong men. If some wuss is willing to commit to her, she's not going to be excited, although she may use him.

PUA gurus mainly teach short term mating strategies, and as a result they tend to become short term maters themselves. As such, they have a bias toward the "player", because that is what they are themselves. So they put it out there that women are only sexually interested in players, while with the provider types they are only interested in their resources and will not give them sex. As I've said before, I am pretty good boyfriend material, but I have never had a woman who was interested in me long term deny me sex, not become excited, or been anything less than enthusiastic in the bedroom.

No matter which dating strategy you use, the key is to be a man, and play the male gender role that you were born to fulfill.
 

zekko

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Desdinova said:
It's really difficult to suppress the kindness. It's totally in my nature, but it just doesn't work when it comes to seduction. I can unintentionally spoil the woman with it just because I love doing it, but too much always ruins the situation.
Sounds like you are maybe naturally too kind, just like I am naturally too aloof.
 
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