Hello Friend,

If this is your first visit to SoSuave, I would advise you to START HERE.

It will be the most efficient use of your time.

And you will learn everything you need to know to become a huge success with women.

Thank you for visiting and have a great day!

Exclusivity

R

Rubato

Guest
I've seen this topic brought up on the boards here a number of times but there's an angle that I haven't seen discussed.

I realize the prevailing logic here is that a guy should never ever ask a girl to be exclusive with him because he is in effect showing his hand and verbally demonstrating that he places value in her sufficient to want to take her off of the sexual market place. As men, we are supposed to view ourselves and believe that we are The Great Catch, and as Pook said, why would The Great Catch ever voluntarily fly himself in to a cage?

That's a good point and I respect it and agree with it as far as for what it stands for. The question I'm posing is are we, as men, looking to enter in to some sort of power brokerage struggle with a woman or do we actually want a relationship? Before that sentence freaks you out, understand that I fully realize every relationship is at least somewhat about power and someone is going to maintain the locus of that power. But the way that the guys on here talk, it seems to me like that locus of power is more important to them than the girl they're actually in the relationship with.

I have a very good relationship with my dad and legitimately think he's a very "alpha" guy. He grew up in destitute poverty, pulled himself up by the bootstraps in a very unsafe and poor city, got straight A's in school while working what was probably full time to help generate money for his family to eat, and became the only one of the 5 children his mother had to get a college education. He got his undergrad degree in 3 years with a 4.0 gpa and got accepted to every medical school he applied to. He worked(s) very diligently in his life and in his love. Throughout all of this and from listening to him talk, it sounds like he had developed a oneitis relationship early on and never made the mistake again. He was never exposed to game but somehow figured out how stupid these AFC mistakes are, probably because he had to as a necessity of life. When I tell him about the stuff Pook wrote about or the opinions on this board, he looks at me funny and can't figure out why I haven't already come to these conclusions myself. No one had to tell him he is The Great Catch. No one had to tell him that his work, college, and life came before women. No one had to lecture him on his priorities, tell him to be dominant, masculine, ect. I honestly think he learned as a necessity of life and this may sound bizarre to some of you, but after considering all of this, I'm rather envious of him that he got to grow up the way he did and I've been "privileged" to grow up in a household without much want or need of anything. It was the struggle that made him that man and the lack of struggle that has caused me, paradoxically enough, to struggle.

I say all that as an assertion that my dad, quite literally, is the man and has the most successful marriage I've ever seen in my life. My mom and dad have been married 26 years now and are the model couple to everyone they know. They still look at each other with the eyes of new love. It's obviously not some continuous replay of the scene from Aladdin where they sing the song "A Whole New World", they have their issues. But it is superbly obvious that they both deeply deeply care for and love each other, even after 26 years. I think most of that has to do with the fact that like I said, my dad is the man.

The biggest issue he's ever had with the advice I've read about on this website is the stance people take towards the idea of exclusivity. He's a sincerely religious man, so he doesn't swear, but if he did, he'd call it horsesh*t.

I've been seeing a girl for over a month now that I'm starting to really like... not like because I feel like she completes my life or anything bogus like that, but I like who she is. We'll be going on date # 11 or 12 this Wed. Since I'm a very analytical guy, the natural thing for me to start thinking about is what I'm doing with this girl, so I talked to my dad about it this weekend. The first thing he asked me was "Do you like her?" And I said I did. He didn't ask if she liked me and told me he didn't for 2 reasons: 1st, he is like Pook and AD in the sense that he believes a girl would not go out with me 11 times within the course of 5 weeks if she wasn't interested. And second, his rhetorical response was "Why wouldn't she like you?" That's the frame he operates from and legit believes it, about himself and about his kids. Then he asked me why I liked her. And I told him.

His advice to me was to continue to get to know how and things will logically work themselves out. He said if I continue to get to know her, her family, and her friends, observe her behavior, and still like her and don't see a bunch of warning signs or red flags - and this is where his advice deviates from what I see here - that I should define the relationship.

He gave me a couple of reasons for this. First, he said for all my talk of "being alpha" and being in control, what's the first thing that a man does? He takes what he wants. The corollary to what you guys say about desiring a woman so much you want her p*ssy off the sexual market place is that you're assertive and dominant enough to tell the woman she's off limits to other guys. I've never been able to wrap my mind around the passivity inherent in the concept of being a dominant alpha male and not being able to define the romantic relationships you're in.

Second, to those of you who are married or in some sort of serially long term monogamous relationship, I've read a lot about what you say they're like. And when I contrast that against what my dad has, I don't want what you guys have. It's a very conditional setup, based predominantly on the acquisition of relational power and capital. There doesn't seem to be an unrelenting commitment to any sort of higher principle (ie, marriage or each other) and ultimately seems to be some sort of contrived setup attempting to minimize personal emotive risk and liability as much as possible.

My dad would say that when a man cares for a woman and she is worth caring for, at some point he has to make himself vulnerable to her, just as much as she does to him.

Now obviously, this sort of thing isn't going to work with all girls. You can take some overly superficial HB9+ who lives life strictly from a position of vanity, selfcenteredness, and instant gratification. The sort of person always pursuing after her hypergamy, whether you are it or not.

And my dad would agree that in that case you guys are right. But he also says that's not the sort of girl I'm looking for, and he's right. It is true that among the masses of women out there, most of them are worse than better. Most of them are untrustworthy in the long term and fit in to the negative archetypal categories that this site has done a pretty good job of describing, at least in general.

I honestly really don't think all women are like that. Just like all men are not untrustworthy in a relationship, not all women are either. I believe there is a much larger number of untrustworthy women, but despite that, I really believe that are some good women out there who do not fit the mold this site as cast for the "typical woman".

And that's what I'm looking for.

I'd like to get people's thoughts on this. I don't agree with everything my dad says, but I've found in life that he's almost always right. What do you think?
 

vatoloco

Master Don Juan
Joined
May 5, 2010
Messages
1,411
Reaction score
65
Rubato said:
I realize the prevailing logic here is that a guy should never ever ask a girl to be exclusive with him because he is in effect showing his hand and verbally demonstrating that he places value in her sufficient to want to take her off of the sexual market place.
IDK about others, but I'm in the camp of allowing the girl to hint at it first. Preferably, the one to bring up the conversation first. Women are INDIRECT creatures so unless she's very forward, she will never tell you straight up: "Rubato, I want you to be my boyfriend. Please fuck my brains out."

They will drop hints. They will steer conversations in the direction that they want. And it is at that instance where you take control as a Man and enter negotiations.


As men, we are supposed to view ourselves and believe that we are The Great Catch, and as Pook said, why would The Great Catch ever voluntarily fly himself in to a cage?
Not only believe, but actually work towards and eventually be a true Prize... ;)


That's a good point and I respect it and agree with it as far as for what it stands for. The question I'm posing is are we, as men, looking to enter in to some sort of power brokerage struggle with a woman or do we actually want a relationship? Before that sentence freaks you out, understand that I fully realize every relationship is at least somewhat about power and someone is going to maintain the locus of that power. But the way that the guys on here talk, it seems to me like that locus of power is more important to them than the girl they're actually in the relationship with.
For me it's about getting the best deal... for me. If I want a woman to be in my Life, it's because she's going to enhance it, not diminish it. And as I much as society tries to tell us that we're equal, the reality is that, in successful relationships, men are supposed to be Men and women are supposed to be Women. She does her role. You do yours.

By she letting me to be in control of the relationship, there is no power struggle. It tells me she's flexible and that we'll be able to handle issues when they arise. We will both work towards making our household a prosperous one, me leading and she supporting me.


I've been seeing a girl for over a month now that I'm starting to really like... not like because I feel like she completes my life or anything bogus like that, but I like who she is. We'll be going on date # 11 or 12 this Wed.
This is all fine and dandy but just keep in mind that you've been seeing this girl quite frequently (2 or 3 times a week, yes?)


Since I'm a very analytical guy, the natural thing for me to start thinking about is what I'm doing with this girl, so I talked to my dad about it this weekend. The first thing he asked me was "Do you like her?" And I said I did.
The more important question is "Does she like you?" ;)


He didn't ask if she liked me and told me he didn't for 2 reasons: 1st, he is like Pook and AD in the sense that he believes a girl would not go out with me 11 times within the course of 5 weeks if she wasn't interested.
And this is where your dad is incorrect (no offense). Back in his and my parents' day, women wouldn't waste your time if they weren't interested. They were taught that this is wrong because you're wasting a guy's time and just giving him false hope. Unfortunately in this day, that's no longer the case.

Women will sometimes go out with a guy, just to go out. Women love attention and will get it, one way or another. They go out because they're hungry and you'll pay for a nice dinner. They go out because they wanna go to a concert and you got tickets. They go out because they're bored and you have nothing [no one] else to do. They go out because their boyfriend is out of town and cannot stand to be alone for the weekend. They will kiss you. They may even fuck you. But they may not like you.

And sometimes, just sometimes, they go out with you because they actually like you. ;)


And second, his rhetorical response was "Why wouldn't she like you?" That's the frame he operates from and legit believes it, about himself and about his kids.
If you're truly a Prize, then yeah.


His advice to me was to continue to get to know how and things will logically work themselves out. He said if I continue to get to know her, her family, and her friends, observe her behavior, and still like her and don't see a bunch of warning signs or red flags - and this is where his advice deviates from what I see here - that I should define the relationship.
Sure. After she hints at it.


He gave me a couple of reasons for this. First, he said for all my talk of "being alpha" and being in control, what's the first thing that a man does? He takes what he wants. The corollary to what you guys say about desiring a woman so much you want her p*ssy off the sexual market place is that you're assertive and dominant enough to tell the woman she's off limits to other guys. I've never been able to wrap my mind around the passivity inherent in the concept of being a dominant alpha male and not being able to define the romantic relationships you're in.
It's about being in control. Not only of your emotions but of the things around you. By you hanging back, you give her the opportunity of acting in a true and honest way. Women are so used to being aggressively pursued that they are hardly ever given the chance to truly think about things and act based on their true feelings.


Second, to those of you who are married or in some sort of serially long term monogamous relationship, I've read a lot about what you say they're like. And when I contrast that against what my dad has, I don't want what you guys have. It's a very conditional setup, based predominantly on the acquisition of relational power and capital.
I already addressed the power thing. And the money? You're always gonna need some. That crap about "all you need is love" is just for songs and movies. You're gonna need some scratch to survive in this world. And to be able to attract women.


There doesn't seem to be an unrelenting commitment to any sort of higher principle (ie, marriage or each other) and ultimately seems to be some sort of contrived setup attempting to minimize personal emotive risk and liability as much as possible.
The thing is that we as Men, we understand the concept of honor, commitment. Women also understand those concepts... as long as it benefits them. ;)

Now, don't get me wrong. If you are indeed interested in a LTR, make sure you do it with a Good Woman who understands and honors these concepts. She will want to stay with you, not only because she's physically attracted to you but because she knows it's in her best interest to stick around because you are indeed a Prize, one she can show off to Mom & Dad and the rest of her girlfriends.


My dad would say that when a man cares for a woman and she is worth caring for, at some point he has to make himself vulnerable to her, just as much as she does to him.
This I'm gonna have to disagree with. You should never disclose weak points or show excessive vulnerability. Even if she doesn't overtly state it, your woman wants and needs a man who will be the source of strength in the relationship. If you're overly sensitive and/or vulnerable, you will diminish her raw feminine attraction towards your masculinity. If you do it often enough and/or long enough, she will tire of it and dump you.

Besides, you should always be careful of what you divulge. You never know when things may come back to bite you in the ass. ;)


Now obviously, this sort of thing isn't going to work with all girls. You can take some overly superficial HB9+ who lives life strictly from a position of vanity, selfcenteredness, and instant gratification. The sort of person always pursuing after her hypergamy, whether you are it or not.
These women are not LTR material. "Pump & Dump" is all that these women are good for.


I honestly really don't think all women are like that. Just like all men are not untrustworthy in a relationship, not all women are either. I believe there is a much larger number of untrustworthy women, but despite that, I really believe that are some good women out there who do not fit the mold this site as cast for the "typical woman".

And that's what I'm looking for.
That's why you spin multiples plates. By interacting with many different women, not only do you learn what you want and what you don't want in a woman but you also learn to identify and drop "bad women."

Go through lots of women and you will eventually find someone worthy of your time, if you are indeed a Prize.​
 

vatoloco

Master Don Juan
Joined
May 5, 2010
Messages
1,411
Reaction score
65
I just read your other thread. http://www.sosuave.net/forum/showthread.php?t=191477

You're not ready, son. Please don't make the mistake of rushing into an LTR because you like sex. I'm telling you this based on experience. It's a just a big waste of time.

Go out there and spin many more plates. Grow as a Man and become a Prize. Then, only then, will you be ready for a healthy LTR.

Good luck kid! :up:
 

macallik

Master Don Juan
Joined
May 23, 2007
Messages
908
Reaction score
77
Location
Chicago
I agree with your dad. Also, I think it is clear that he got his experience and status from doing and experiencing so there is nothing wrong with doing some experiencing yourself.

You come off as a sensible guy who analyzes situations and reacts accordingly. How much SS advice is full of those generalizations and hyperboles when it comes to the opposite sex? Only you know what you feel for her and whether it is simply because of sex or whether it is something deeper.

People say don't rush into a LTR but this is not you asking for her hand in marriage or anything crazy. Although there is no need to define a relationship unless you want to, it is not necessarily an avenue you should be afraid of should the opportunity arise.

Try some exclusivity and if it doesn't work out, you can easily go back on the market. It is not like you have kids or are moving out together. The relationship can end with one conversation or phone call.
 
R

Rubato

Guest
Thanks for the detailed response vatoloco. I wasn't expecting anything that detailed.

To your first point about entering in to negotiations, I think that it's very wise to establish expressed boundaries in any type of serious relationship, whether it be with a woman or even with a dude like a business partner. First regardless of what guys think on this board, even as an AFC I still had some common sense. I would never have asked some chick to be my girlfriend if I didn't have some concrete reasoning to believe she'd say yes. So to your point, I do believe it's very prudent to absolutely wait for the girl to start expressing some sort of indirect interest in having a relationship with you.

There's no disagreement on The Great Catch/Prize philosophy.

I also totally agree with you about the relational gender roles, as would my dad. Maybe that section is a semantics issue, but he's explained to me exactly what you said many times. I was a political philosophy student so I look at power as something to lord over another person, like what The 48 Laws of Power was written about. And I don't disagree that that sort of thing works, but it doesn't work towards the end I'm looking for. It's not some mystical Disney-esq ideal with fireworks and a castle, but it is a functional and dare I say.... loving relationship.

Gender roles is a fine explanation.

Ever since school started I have been so busy, and as you've read, with a lot of work I'm not really excited about, that time has become somewhat distorted for me. To be honest, I don't know how long I've been seeing the girl, I just know we've gone out 11 or 12 times, and I have made it a point not to see her more than 2x per week, usually just once, and I only text to make/confirm plans and really... I don't call her hardly at all. About the only time we talk is when we're together. Muscles don't grow when you're in the gym, they grow when you're resting... I think that's a good metaphor for attraction.

And this girl adores me. My dad's seen her around me so that's prolly why he didn't even ask. It's obvious in everything from the way she looks at me to the way she kisses me. She's already verbally established that we are "dating" on our last date (like "it's so nice to be dating someone like you"). If you've read any of my other posts, you'll also know that I'm pretty conflicted about my religious beliefs. I want sex very badly but I don't feel like I should be having it because I have pretty conservative religious beliefs. My dating experience of last year has made me an extremely cynical guy towards women and I've been really super ultra MEGA hesitant to even allow myself to think that this girl may actually believe the "Christian" values she claims she has. But her actions have thus confirmed that idea. My neighbors go to church with her and her family and know them pretty well... they say she's straight and a very very good girl. I still don't believe it, and like I wrote a few weeks ago, the fact that I couldn't make out with her by the 3rd date (and still haven't) makes me feel like I"m doing something wrong. But that's not the point here...

The only thing she's getting from me is attention. She's actually spending time with me at a financial loss to herself because after the 1st 2 dates, she's paid for almost everything. She says she's just happy to spend the time with me and wants to do something nice back for the time I'm giving to her (since I am so busy and all, and that's not sarcasm. My time is valuable).

About being in control, I totally agree with that. A man should be composed. But dude, what you said about women being so aggressively pursued (that may be true) that they don't have the agency to fully access the way they feel about a situation? Women are fully emotional creatures by definition! That sounds to me, no offense, like the sort of thing a woman would say to retroactively justify having sex with a guy who didn't treat her right. I don't think women think. They feel. And they act based on those feelings. They may think after they feel and act. And that's why they retroactively rationalize. This is why the phrase "he who hesitates masturbates" even exists! And if you are The Great Catch, her thoughts won't be an issue. The Great Catch has much more important things to worry about.

When I said capital, I meant relational capital. I do not believe in the idea that one can "live on love and buy on time". That's something for AFCs and something else my dad has reinforced very strongly to me.

I don't think women understand those concepts of honor et al, even if you say they do conditionally, because there are no conditions to those concepts. I don't see a lot of the world as mutually exclusive, but you can't half heartedly be an honorable person.

When my dad says be vulnerable with women, he does not mean to open up your closets and let all the skeletons free. His idea of vulnerability is simpler, simply expressing interest in the girl by asking her to be exclusive. That is demonstrating emotional vulnerability because she could say no. That's all he meant.

And I agree with you about the plate spinning.

And I'm prolly not ready for an LTR right now. I wasn't ready to start a business when I did. I wasn't ready for college when I started. There have been a lot of things I wasn't ready for, but did anyways because they were ultimately beneficial to me even though I made mistakes and possibly even failed by some people's definitions. Dude, I don't know what's gonna happen here. All I know is to trust the gut, listen to the advice of the older MEN I have in my life, and make the best decision I can based on what I know at the time. Messing up sucks, but it's a great teacher. I'm not so headstrong that I go out intending to make my life difficult, but I also want to get as much out of it as possible. If it looks to me like an LTR with this girl will serve my ultimate purposes better than not, I will do it. And vice versa.

I've said no many times before. I'm not afraid to say it again.

But I really appreciate your advice man. Thanks for your input
 

zekko

Master Don Juan
Joined
Aug 6, 2009
Messages
15,859
Reaction score
8,562
Regarding the thing about power:
I think that due to the nature of males and females, a relationship works best if the man has the power. A girl wants to look up to her guy, and if she holds the power she can't do that, and may even resent you for being weak.

That's why I think it's best that you put the girl into a position where she is chasing you, that makes her invest in and value you more. With the way women are these days especially, if she doesn't see you as a strong capable leader, she's less likely to value you and more likely to dump you.

Rubato said:
Throughout all of this and from listening to him talk, it sounds like he had developed a oneitis relationship early on and never made the mistake again. He was never exposed to game but somehow figured out how stupid these AFC mistakes are, probably because he had to as a necessity of life. When I tell him about the stuff Pook wrote about or the opinions on this board, he looks at me funny and can't figure out why I haven't already come to these conclusions myself
Speaking as an old guy who grew up without pickup gurus or seduction forums, most of the stuff here is learned from life experience. That's where most of the tips come from, at least the good ones. That's why I get puzzled when guys here talk about having their eyes opened up, and how SoSuave changed their life, and how they had a revelation from reading this stuff. Nearly everything I've read here I've heard of or lived through in some form or other. Not everything, but nearly everything. If you don't keep your head stuffed up your @ss, you will come to a lot of the same conclusions yourself, if you live long enough.

What really confuses me is seeing guys in their late 30s and 40s talking about being unplugged from the matrix and all. I figure they just haven't had much life experience.
 
Last edited:
R

Rubato

Guest
Zekko, I think I'm getting hung up on the word power in a similar way that you are hung up on the phrase "nice guy".

I think a better word to describe the situation is authority.

I look at power as something to be wielded over people in a generally negative way. Your boss has the power to fire you. The government has the power to kill you or put you in prison. The natural response to power is submission.

Authority on the other hand, while similar to power, is not quite the same thing. I don't necessarily think a person who has power automatically has authority. Authority is something that we yield to rather than something that is wielded over us. It also flows directly from respect and is voluntary.

I have had power in relationships before and I have had authority. I would rather have authority because I don't think power is healthy. When I've held power, I can only expect things to degenerate in to a dysfunctional codependent system very rapidly... and any psychologist can explain exactly why that would happen. My goals, while probably very different than some of the other guys on his board, are not to develop a relationship with a woman in which she is scared, threatened, or feels compelled by some force other than love (or whatever other "positive" adjective you would use that implies she's there because she sees value in me and wants to be there out of her own volition and will).

When I have held authority, things were much different. I knew my place as a man and she knew her place as a woman. I had compassion for her, what she thought, ect. and genuinely cared for her. But at the end of the day, I held authority... not her. And it worked because she consented to it, not because it was something wielded over her.

I think this power vs. authority dynamic is one of the fundamental differences between someone who is a true MAN, DJ, alpha, or whatever you want to call him, vs someone who thinks they are but is not. Players like power because of its propensity to manipulate and for lack of better words, "get results". MEN like authority because they have better things to do than waste their time with petty manipulations, games, and what not. What was it Pook said? "Real men are not available because they are busy climbing mountains... and what are you doing, making spaghetti?"

My dad says it takes too much time and work to hold power in everything you do. He's right. It's much easier when people listen to you because you have engendered their respect and admiration through your character, masculinity, and person rather than because you've shown them value and then threaten to take it away from them.
 

vatoloco

Master Don Juan
Joined
May 5, 2010
Messages
1,411
Reaction score
65
Rubato said:
But dude, what you said about women being so aggressively pursued (that may be true) that they don't have the agency to fully access the way they feel about a situation? Women are fully emotional creatures by definition! That sounds to me, no offense, like the sort of thing a woman would say to retroactively justify having sex with a guy who didn't treat her right. I don't think women think. They feel. And they act based on those feelings.
The problem we have today is that men are so desperate for pussy that they aggressively pursue and pedestal women that they [the women] are not given the chance to act on their actual true feelings. They are so used to being the center of attention that they just "go with the flow" and contemplate the idea of getting attention (a need they all have) from a guy that they don't truly like (a feeling they themselves know but bury).

Like I tell people, we're not gonna force you to do anything. You're the master of your own destiny. You're gonna do what you wanna do and with whoever you wanna do it with. You have the information.

Personally, I think you're at a very good age for spinning many plates. I got unplugged at around your age so after 10+ years of improving and plate spinning, I have achieved it: a became a Prize who knows what he wants and what he doesn't want. A Prize that men admire and women wanna be with.

I wish you the same.

Good luck.
 

zekko

Master Don Juan
Joined
Aug 6, 2009
Messages
15,859
Reaction score
8,562
Rubato said:
I look at power as something to be wielded over people in a generally negative way
Power should be wielded in a fair and just way. You know what they say here, don't give your power away. But you can call it authority if you want to.

It's all part of the male/female, dominant/submissive, yin/yang, lead/follow, hard/soft, masculine/feminine dynamic. When the girl has the "authority", the natural order is not being followed, and she is less likely to respect you as a man.

Hung up on the phrase "nice guy"? I have no idea what you are referring to.

;)
 
Top