Mastery

[ChristopherColumbus]

Mastery begins with self-mastery. And yet too many guys are looking only for mastery over women, which leads to a thirstiness and the chasing of women. An approach that is in the end counter-productive.

True mastery, even mastery over women, requires mastery over the self first.

 

[logicallefty]

As has been said here on SS many times before, by many great DJs "Build the perfect man, and the perfect woman will come".

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

As has been said here on SS many times before, by many great DJs "Build the perfect man, and the perfect woman will come".

But this is easier said than done. The question that all the great ethical philosophers of the past posed first is what are the ideals that we are to pursue. And so the primary goal of self mastery must simply be that - the mastery of the self. This must involve the mastery of the passions by a more rational self... the whole point of ethics and the pursuit of excellence.

I'd argue, that in practical terms [ethics is always practical], we can only cease to make women our ultimate concern in the 'pacification' of our passion for them. And for the vast majority of men today, this may be as difficult as breaking an addiction.

Ethical/ civilized man = a hierarchical aristocratic psychology, where passions subjugated are to reason and order.
Barbarous man = a levelling democratic psychology, where passions are given free rein enslaving him.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

OK, so this may offend our democratic principles... but so much for them [they are starting to become laughable in this day and age]. All this self-mastery and self-development stuff you see today taps back into the self-determination ethic of the likes of Aristotle etc.

 

[zekko]

I'd argue, that in practical terms [ethics is always practical], we can only cease to make women our ultimate concern in the 'pacification' of our passion for them.

I agree with that, although I don't believe that in itself necessarily creates attraction. I get the impression many posters here do believe that - "Quit being thirsty and the women will flock". It may even be true for some guys, depends on what problem it is that's standing in your way.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

I agree with that, although I don't believe that in itself necessarily creates attraction. I get the impression many posters here do believe that - "Quit being thirsty and the women will flock". It may even be true for some guys, depends on what problem it is that's standing in your way.

Nor should it. To do it for the sake of creating attraction betrays the fact you are not doing it for the sake of itself [as an end in itself]. This is the whole point, that your reason for self-mastery does not revolve on women... even in a sneaky subconscious-like way.

This all goes to show the limitations of game... that should be confined to learning a few skills that you can 'turn on' should the occasion require it. It certainly shouldn't be your ultimate concern, your guiding light, you raison d'etre.

 

[CamCam]

But this is easier said than done. The question that all the great ethical philosophers of the past posed first is what are the ideals that we are to pursue. And so the primary goal of self mastery must simply be that - the mastery of the self. This must involve the mastery of the passions by a more rational self... the whole point of ethics and the pursuit of excellence.

I'd argue, that in practical terms [ethics is always practical], we can only cease to make women our ultimate concern in the 'pacification' of our passion for them. And for the vast majority of men today, this may be as difficult as breaking an addiction.

Ethical/ civilized man = a hierarchical aristocratic psychology, where passions subjugated are to reason and order.
Barbarous man = a levelling democratic psychology, where passions are given free rein enslaving him.

This is so true. My problem, and having been only very recently awoken, is that until I have some plates spinning, I will be overly concerned with women. I've noticed in the past, as soon as I have some options, I relax and can continue along my path unimpeded.

 

[resilient]

As has been said here on SS many times before, by many great DJs "Build the perfect man, and the perfect woman will come".

That naturally makes sense to me. When a DJ gets caught up in chasing his dream...women develop a curiosity. They want to know what makes him tick. What is he passionate about? What leadership qualities does he possess?

The self-mastery of a man leading his life by his will shows confidence and direction. He's living in his frame and does not let the present moment distract him from where he's going in life.

Dream chasing shows ambition and a desire to elevate above mediocrity.

All of these traits are admirable in a man and what we should all strive over hyperfocusing on what a woman wants. That's an unwanted situation that can cause a man to go astray... lose his focus... lose his guiding inner compass.

 

[flowtheory]

Chasing women is an illusion; like a mirage in the desert, and the thirstier one is, the greater the image they create in their mind.

Create value within ones self and naturally you will only accept and pursue things which contribute to your growth, thus increasing your own value.

 

[resilient]

True that, flow. I saw a motivational IG post earlier this week by a user that posts daily motivations. Anyway, the quote I read that I keep reading over and over in my mind is, "chase your dreams, not people."

Maybe that line needs to resonate with some of you guys. I know it helped me to repeat that to myself when I found myself overthinking about one plate too much recently.

We can't forget where we're going in our course in our life. The DJ path has to come first. We can show a naturing side to others including loved ones, SO, yet for the stability of our growth, I agree, we have to put our values first.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

Maybe that line needs to resonate with some of you guys. I know it helped me to repeat that to myself when I found myself overthinking about one plate too much recently.
.

I'd say it goes deeper than this... than what goes on transparently in our conscious minds.

What I mean it that we have to 're-wire' ourselves, our passions and our addictions, through a long period of training, in order to attain to self mastery. It is a very difficult path.

Talk to anyone that has overcome an addiction, and you might get a semblance of the sort of process required. I'm saying today's problem, at the mass level, is mass addiction... that self-mastery is a way out of this addiction... and that this addiction is women.

And this need not necessarily be about celibacy... but that you become capable of it. You can then take or leave women, which puts you in a position of power, of freedom and self-determination.

 

[resilient]

I'm leaning towards deesade's viewpoint in this thread, Christopher.

What I said above is that it's good to have a balance and control over oneself and use the experience to make stronger sound rational actions in regards to women.

At the same time, we should not view women as a sort of addiction problem.

Avoidance isn't the solution.

Celibacy isn't the solution.

That's more of a personal preference in my mind that is personal to the person that upholds that belief. Often that's a religious value that the person has developed culturally or internalized that value most likely bestowed from the nuclear family that taught them interpersonal relationships.

Our addiction problem comes from the long-standing issue on SoSuave of the paralysis of analysis.

Call it oneitis if it's just one plate. Point is, a DJ should develop a mastery over oneself primarily in how he conducts himself first and then secondarily how to make better logical decisions based on life experiences.

For example, is this plate an asset or a liability? Is she with me or am I a pawn? Does she respect me? Does she want to follow my leadership? Developing stronger critical thinking skills (the rational mind) can help a man navigate the stormy seas in the realm of dating, personal life matters and beyond.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

It's a forum about dating....i think.
.

Yes, a forum about dating... not a dating forum. The great thing about this site is its diversity... it can be about learning a few pick up skills, at one end of the spectrum, to the more critical spaces at the other.

Mastery is an ideal. It's not practical to "achieve mastery" by avoiding women.
And i can seriously tell you, having sincerely attempted mastery, that it's a fvcking long long way off. Requires an unbelievable effort. The fallacies are such:

Yes, it's an ideal. It ties into the notions of self development and excellence that we see a lot of in the manosphere. And yes, it takes a lot of effort, but then anything that's worthy of achieving in life is not easy.

As I said, I don't think it's about avoiding women. It's more like attaining to a position of strength from which you are can avoid them should you want to. It's about choice, but choice presupposes freedom. If we're compelled by our passion/ addiction/ nature/ urge/ Id... call it what you will... we are not really free, and this is what causes so many of the problems we have with women.

The bigger issue here I think is a question of societal norms - it has become the norm today to think of men as obsessed with sex [thanks to Freud and his cohorts], and so we have set the baseline very low where men are seen as driven by their instincts and passions. In this scenario, we are determined, not free and self-determined. Of course this only suits too well the requirements of a mass consumer driven society. Most people have addictive personalities today... and then this becomes the norm. In the past, the majority of people where 'continent' due to good upbringings and good habits... and so the path of the 'Good Life' was not quite so difficult to undertake.

.....the more realistic goal should be in using game to improve one's quality of life in a sustainable and healthy manner.

The rational/ ideal is the real for us men. Not the emotional, not the social. Not even some idea of health... in the traditions of western philosophy, from Plato to Nietzsche, we should pursue the excellent. A woman may or may not be a part of that.... and could most likely be swept up in your vortex when you are least expecting it.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

At the same time, we should not view women as a sort of addiction problem.
.

I'd propose a litmus test of sorts. Can men refrain from sexual activity for a period of time [for example, not viewing pornography etc]. If you can not, you lack self-control and are in danger of becoming an addict.. if not already one. Of course, there are varying degrees... from something you only think of as a bad habit to a full-blown addiction that can wreak havoc on your life. The first often morphs into the later.

The point of all of this, is that if our passion has the better of our better self, we are in no position of strength and power toward women. They will be like the seducing sirens to shipwreck us.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

That's more of a personal preference in my mind that is personal to the person that upholds that belief. Often that's a religious value that the person has developed culturally or internalized that value most likely bestowed from the nuclear family that taught them interpersonal relationships.
.

But look at the practical implications of this... not the ideological ones. People have had an ethical training which puts them, in psychological terms, in a much better position for negotiating/ navigating relationships.

Our addiction problem comes from the long-standing issue on SoSuave of the paralysis of analysis.

Yes, the primary addiction for men today, from which all other addictions flow, is ideology.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

Of course, all this relates only to those who are interested in pursuing excellence and mastery... and my point is that mastery begins with self-mastery. This is NOT a one size fits all policy.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

Mate, i'm going to be very nice.

Didn't you apply your "mastery" and get repeatedly friendzoned? No sexual relationship in a very long time, is that correct?

That's exactly what this stuff will get you.

Surely you want a companion of some type or you wouldn't he dating?

So then, your mindset ---> your behaviours ---> your results. And you clearly haven't gotten what you want.

Then why suggest the method, and even go so far to try to spin it as "mastery"?

I mean sure, you can quibble over it being a dating forum, but that's context. And context is important. You are essentially telling people not to date, and loads are agreeing!

So it's about not dating?

And people wonder why i'm sometimes confused.

This is a far cry from the old saying of "spin more plates". Which was about men having options. That was literally in every thread when i joined. The scene has changed dramatically.

Eh, no hate to you. Just not my cup of tea. And in a different context, i'm sure you're a decent guy. But under this context? Not into this at all, and guess i'm offering some counterpoint then.

As I said, it's not a one size fits all policy. It's only applicable insofar as one is interested in pursuing self-mastery. Nor is it a rigid policy toward dating or not dating... now or in the future. The point is that once self-mastery [over desire] is gained, then you have more options opened to you... the options to date or not to date in general.. or the option to date or not to date a woman in particular.

As far as my dating life is going, I'm more content with it than I was in the past [less thirsty]. From time to time, I'll meet a woman in the normal course of the day. I've learnt a few skills here, but for me it's now more a matter of meeting the right woman.


I sometimes wonder if we are losing the ability to hold the norm and the ideal in tension. Thought today tends to be very reductive, down to the base,... there can be only one way.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

But do you see how "spin more plates" is a more reaffirming message on a dating forum whilst dating, than "be celibate"?

And you can't get much more reductive than a philosophy which makes a point to expell the subject of women, in a discussion about our relations with them.

Just completely absurd and self-indulgent.

I can see how some might think that. But, in the context of this forum, I'm focusing here more on 'inner game' and the concepts of self development.... and then in the context of dating that would translate into less thirstiness and the meeting of better quality women. I think it's perfectly relevant to those interested in pursuing self-mastery.

And self-mastery really is an end in itself. It's about overcoming a lot of inner turmoil that often leads to various forms of escapism... and women can be one of those forms. And yet, paradoxically, it may lead to more successful relationships with women - if romance/ dating is an art, then it may also require an element of disinterestedness to it.

 

[Misterchaos]

I look at Mastery as a dead-end concept. When you apply the concept of Mastery to yourself, it carries with it the presumption that there is a destination of sorts; that there are moments in which failure ceases to greater and greater extents. It holds the idea that the battle will be won at some point, or at the very least it will grow easier.

I don't like that.

IMO, mastery is not an achievement to strive for. It is not a moment of glory in which you have "arrived".

IMO, mastery is nothing more than a presumption OTHER PEOPLE make about you when they compare themselves to you. It is merely the realization of self weakness that is not seen in someone else who they perceive as a master.

I believe that You have to have many weaknesses to believe in mastery.

For me, it is not about an end point, a destination, a list of milestones or even about achieving a point in which things become easier. It is only about constant change in a positive direction. Constant change. Never ending. Impossible to stop or transcend. It is about each and every experience, win or lose, and what comes next. It requires failure. It requires growth. It needs to be something that is never truly satisfied.

The moment I feel as if I have mastered anything is also the same moment I completely lose interest.

I agree 100%.

Mastery sounds like a destination. When actually it is the pursuit of ones goals and chief aims that gives me my drive / sense of fulfilment. Achieve one goal and there is always another, this makes me happy. There is no destination or set conditions. I see life as a sandbox, you can build the same castle an infinite # of ways. Have fun, find your passion, and pursue it. Go play in the sand. Every now and then you might find a seashell (woman) worth being in your sandbox.

 

[ChristopherColumbus]

I look at Mastery as a dead-end concept. When you apply the concept of Mastery to yourself, it carries with it the presumption that there is a destination of sorts; that there are moments in which failure ceases to greater and greater extents. It holds the idea that the battle will be won at some point, or at the very least it will grow easier.
.

Hmmm... maybe there is some confusion in what I mean by mastery [I notice you have capitalized the word].

noun: mastery

1. 1.
   comprehensive knowledge or skill in a subject or accomplishment.
   "she played with some mastery"
   synonyms: proficiency, ability, capability; More
   knowledge, understanding, comprehension, familiarity, command, grasp, grip
   "her mastery of the language"
   skill, skillfulness, expertise, dexterity, finesse, adroitness, virtuosity, prowess, deftness, proficiency;
   informalknow-how
   "they played with tactical mastery"
   • the action or process of mastering a subject or accomplishment.
     "a child's mastery of language"
2. 2.
   control or superiority over someone or something.
   "man's mastery over nature"
   synonyms: control, domination, command, ascendancy, supremacy, preeminence, superiority; More

I have the first meaning here in mind. It really is a very simple and common sense idea. There is first a goal and then the striving for that goal. The goal with mastery here is simply self-control. I want to be, to a certain extent, in control of my passions. Surely this is a worthy and achievable goal. Who would say it isn't? It's the Socratic injunction to know yourself. It's philosophy and ethics.

If you drew a bell curve of the general population, with the great bulk in the middle, half would have mastery over themselves [little m.. no huge deal], and half wouldn't, they used to call this 'continence', and more often than not it was due to a decent upbringing and the inculcation of good habits [as for the vicious and virtuous they were the thin tails at either end]. Of course, this picture could be drastically changing in our contemporary society, where more people feel they are lacking this kind of control [impulse control] over themselves... leading to all manner of addictions. I think as a society we are facing a crisis here.

IMO, mastery is not an achievement to strive for. It is not a moment of glory in which you have "arrived".

IMO, mastery is nothing more than a presumption OTHER PEOPLE make about you when they compare themselves to you. It is merely the realization of self weakness that is not seen in someone else who they perceive as a master.

As I've mentioned this is about self-mastery, not mastery over others.. not thinking you are better, or allowing others to think you are better.

I believe that You have to have many weaknesses to believe in mastery.

Yes, I am all too human, I know my weaknesses.

For me, it is not about an end point, a destination, a list of milestones or even about achieving a point in which things become easier. It is only about constant change in a positive direction. Constant change. Never ending. Impossible to stop or transcend. It is about each and every experience, win or lose, and what comes next. It requires failure. It requires growth. It needs to be something that is never truly satisfied.

The moment I feel as if I have mastered anything is also the same moment I completely lose interest

I agree with this. I would say that an element of self-mastery is required for growth... because then you are freed to aspire to something beyond yourself. And so self-mastery involves not only about a restraint on the Id but also a delimitation of the ego.