WTF is happening in Europe

[BlueAlpha1]

Sounds like you are doing just fine. So what's your motivation here, to help others?

Motivation in this thread you mean? Or in general? This thread is a pretty good discussion, albeit fierce, about the minimum wage debate. There's a pretty big split in our country over this too, although I think a plurality agree with me & want it raised.

My overall message which I express in my writing is to warn young people about this life model. It's dangerous and not for everyone, yet it seems to be the one and only path drawn up for young people who are just about ready to leave the nest. They're never told to take their skills and ideas and take a chance starting a business or hell, to take a year to travel the world and learn to survive remotely. This is extremely common in other cultures because I've talked to these people. I'm calling for anything different from the 9-5 status quo for those who don't want it.

The 9-5 slave wage lifestyle is the stuff of a vicious cycle. Yes, low skilled workers get depressed about long hours for low pay. They get discouraged, addicted, and lose any basic skills they might have been able to capitalize on. They give up. I'm not encouraging people to stop working and live on welfare, but I'm telling them if they're going to be an employee, to narrow down the path and find something they love to do if they're going to do it 40 hours a week. And don't just get a bull**** degree because it's what everyone else is doing.

To be honest, even had I not been laid off I would have left that 50k job within another 6 months. I wasn't happy. I was selling gullible people garbage they didn't need, and allocating 11 hours a day to the company through unpaid lunches and commuting, despite only being paid for 8. I remember working a day shift after a night shift at least once a week. They were monopolizing 22+ hrs out of 36 in a 1.5 day period.

There has to be another way.

Anyway, truly sorry again if that "stuck in the middle class" bit came off the wrong way before. It came out uglier than it should have. There are 1 or 2 people who I seem to inevitably trade ad hominem attacks with, but you're not one of them.

 

[BlueAlpha1]

The two are an irrelevant comparison. There is a limited supply of successful CEO talent, which is why they are worth so much. Because they CREATE wealth. It makes ZERO sense to compare how much they make and ask "what is appropriate" because such a question is rooted in the morality of socialism or robbery.

ANYONE can be a janitor, the supply is the entire population, thus the pay is low. "Exploitation" has nothing to do with it, it is all about the laws of supply and demand, and people being motivated to create more wealth so THEY can get wealthier.


Take responsibility, stop blaming other people and shaming them with "greed". Instead, make yourself more valuable.

It's not an irrelevant question. Millions upon millions of people are asking the question, many of them middle class, hard working families who've had their throats stepped on by these people's greed. It is relevant. If you don't think there's an ethical element of exploitation, then we are truly light-years apart.

It's funny you talk about shaming and then throw the dirty word socialism. What you're arguing for is at best a form of corporatism, and at worst a form of fascism. You've tacitly admitted you don't care if politics and corporations are married, which is in essence the case when politicians turn a blind eye to their unchecked power.

People with far-right tendencies called Obama a socialist, and the guy is a centrist through and through. Sanders is an admitted socialist, and I'm not sure if I'd vote for him. He's too much even for me. But he's making a lot of noise, which discredits your theory that it's just a few crackpot commies calling for these changes.

 

[BlueAlpha1]

You are talking apples and oranges here because you are so confused, as evidenced by the fact you are NOW citing middle class families and the marriage of politics and corporations.

I'm citing that you and people who think like you are tacitly advocating the marriage of politics and corporations when you turn a blind eye to unchecked corporate greed. This is an element of fascism.

The discussion has NOTHING to do with those topics, just about your desire to siphon from the productive to the unproductive.

Absolute nonsense.

As I said before, the motivated will seek to improve themselves, the unmotivated will stagnate....this is EXACTLY how it should be.

You got this part right.

 

[Asmodeus]

I actually do not care about the wage gap. If a person is making billions of dollars then he earned it, even if he cheated his way to the top then he was able to outwit others. Deception is its own merit, a person skilled at it deserves what he earned through use of it. The universe is not fair, so who says we should all play fair?
This complaining about the billionaires and millionaires is all just envy, which is its own sin just the same as greed. You envy them … You only wish you had that money, and you hate that they do and you do not. I bet you are as greedy as those billionaires you complain about… I wonder what you would do if you had that much money, and more importantly what you would be willing to do for that kind of money. I will be willing to exploit and deceive if I had to... At least I am not ashamed to admit it.

 

[samspade]

This is theater of the absurd now. Give me a break.

If a slave agrees to be a slave, what's your problem with that? Let's find a few delusional, self-hating black men and then abolish the 13th amendment while we're at it.

For the third time, the law is based on logic. It's completely illogical to ask me this question when you look at the cost of living. They have a name for people who cling to black and white theories against all evidence and real life circumstance. It's called an ideologue.

Please be reasonable.

Is a person who agrees to receive $2 an hour a slave? If he has the choice to accept or reject it, he is enslaved to no one. Your reference to slavery doesn't answer the question.

I'll answer your question. I'm not sure if someone who "agrees" to be a slave is, by definition, a slave, since he chose to be one. Logically he can choose not to be one. If it's his choice, it's not my problem. Just like if someone takes a job for $2/hour is not my problem. If it's HIS problem, it's up to him to find an alternative.

The greater point is that if two people agree on a price, it is not any less or more than it is "supposed" to be, so long as it was a two-sided decision.

A government-imposed minimum wage is, however, one-sided, because it is enforced by threat of penalty, ultimately violence.

 

[Bible_Belt]

"Choice" is a word that a lot of qualifiers can be applied to, like rational, reasonable....If my only other option is starving to death in the woods, would I choose to be a slave? Probably not if it was just me, but if I had a wife and kids who might starve with me, then I would probably say "Yes massa, I will pick your cotton." Having a choice between two sh!tty options is not really much of a choice.

 

[BlueAlpha1]

Is a person who agrees to receive $2 an hour a slave? If he has the choice to accept or reject it, he is enslaved to no one. Your reference to slavery doesn't answer the question.

I'll answer your question. I'm not sure if someone who "agrees" to be a slave is, by definition, a slave, since he chose to be one. Logically he can choose not to be one. If it's his choice, it's not my problem. Just like if someone takes a job for $2/hour is not my problem. If it's HIS problem, it's up to him to find an alternative.

The greater point is that if two people agree on a price, it is not any less or more than it is "supposed" to be, so long as it was a two-sided decision.

A government-imposed minimum wage is, however, one-sided, because it is enforced by threat of penalty, ultimately violence.

This is an extremely simplistic analysis, and I think you know better than you're letting on. Sometimes these people are faced with a choice between being homeless, and cleaning toilets for a net pay per week that amounts to less than the equivalent of a month of groceries. Forget rent and utilities.

It's one thing to have this crop of Republicans lobby to keep the minimum wage $7.25, but I can't believe I've actually found people in favor of a $2 wage if "both parties agree to it."

More than a few slaves were happy in their roles. This is where "Uncle Tom" came from. Ultimately, nobody on the Republican side besides Donald Trump stands a chance against either Democrat. And wrong as they are on so many issues, they're right on this, and you're very likely to see a minimum wage increase by end of 2017. So at least common sense will win out.

And no, violence will not befall on the corporations. The penalty for breaching labor laws is not death or rape. They'll face civil penalties.

 

[BlueAlpha1]

Your argument contrary is nonsensical as free market wages have NOTHING to do with fascism.

"Fascism should more appropriate be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power.”
- Benito Mussolini, a fascist

You can dress it up with cute terms like "Free market wages", which pretty much translates to unchecked corporate discretion & absolute power. So you're wrong again.

I'm sure you'll have a witty retort calling a centrist a socialist, but that just shows you have no rubber left on the road at all. In the end I'll take the textbook definition from the horse's mouth before yours.

 

[BlueAlpha1]

I actually do not care about the wage gap. If a person is making billions of dollars then he earned it, even if he cheated his way to the top then he was able to outwit others. Deception is its own merit, a person skilled at it deserves what he earned through use of it. The universe is not fair, so who says we should all play fair?
This complaining about the billionaires and millionaires is all just envy, which is its own sin just the same as greed. You envy them … You only wish you had that money, and you hate that they do and you do not. I bet you are as greedy as those billionaires you complain about… I wonder what you would do if you had that much money, and more importantly what you would be willing to do for that kind of money. I will be willing to exploit and deceive if I had to... At least I am not ashamed to admit it.

Well, you should be. I don't have a dog in this fight because I haven't worked a minimum wage job in a decade - in fact I was saving 50% of my disposable net income for a while. I'm doing fine. A millionaire? Hell no. But I'm quite young, and am confident in my chances within 10 years.

Your post pretty much falls flat on its face in it's second sentence, when you use "earned" and "cheated" as synonyms when they are literally antonyms. That's about the end of your credibility.

No, I would not put a knife in somebody's back for a pay raise. I'd rather earn it (which is different from cheating, mind you.) I'm glad to hear you would. Just do the world a favor, tattoo it on your forehead so decent people stay away from you.

P.S. - Your side is losing in this debate. Common sense is winning. The Republicans, firmly in the back pocket of the billionaires you admittedly envy, are embarrassing themselves for the 3rd straight election. You will see a minimum wage increase in 2017.

 

[YawataNoKami]

Hey , BlueAlpha .........this thread is about Europe's problems not about minimum wage. Quite frankly; you just sound like those occupy Wall Street b1tches. Do you wanna paid $25 to a burger flipper? Open your own rest. and do it , otherwise stop the fvcking whining.

 

[Tictac]

What kind of education system do we have when laissez faire capitalism is now the new definition of fascism???? LOL!!!

BPD1 is a product of that system. Fed crap by AFT/NEA drones from the time he went to school, he never questioned and now cannot fathom that he at one time could. And that now it's important that he does, the tools are gone. All that is left is arrogance, bitterness and closed-mindedness, just as his teachers wanted.

He cannot think or reason. But just in case he might have a thought, the AAUP got him for four more years.

He thinks that argument is about 'winning' not dialogue. He fulminates and spews venom at anyone that questions his stale-as-last-year's-bread, hide-bound empty beliefs. His logic is 'if I say it it's true and your're and idiot if you don't accept it' just like the drones that taught him.

Most of all, he thinks that he is smart and that anyone that doesn't accept the crap he spews is stupid. This is the big lie because it's quite the reverse. So he is immune both to thought and from thought, just like he was taught to be.

He is the perfect outcome from the public education system - blind, deaf, dumb and utterly convinced he is smart, witty and capable of defending his 'intellectual' (LOL) point of view against 'stupid' people. And he is just like millions upon millions of people his age.

 

[Asmodeus]

@BlueAlpha1 ... I do not care much about the debate. I care less about politics. I am not trying to win anything here. Earned and cheated may as well be synonyms to me as I find deception to be a skill. Those who are able to use deception well have earned their victory over those who let themselves be deceived. Lastly, no I am not ashamed... I would figuratively put the knife to the back of anyone if necessary. I take pride in my willingness to get stuff done and not let anything get in my way. In fact, I deceive women on a daily basis as it gives me power over them. It is all just part of the game.

 

[Who Dares Win]

WOW, so you think free market economics means a merger between State and Corporations???

Holy jesus no wonder you feel so weak that you need big daddy Government to protect you.

And that really is what we are talking about here. There was a study done to show that weaker men usually vote leftist because they feel they cannot compete without someone forcefully helping them. Given that you seem to think Corporations have all of the power then it is obvious you do not believe in yourself or your skillset. Moreover you cannot see that those Corporations need you as much as you need them.

The anti-capitalist indoctrination has blinded you to simple math and economics.

What kind of education system do we have when laissez faire capitalism is now the new definition of fascism???? LOL!!!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...ong-men-more-likely-to-vote-Conservative.html

 

[BlueAlpha1]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...ong-men-more-likely-to-vote-Conservative.html

Spare me any "studies." Confirmation bias affects almost every single one without fail. One of the most outspoken critics of this far-right capitalist machine that dabbles in a sort of fascism-lite is Jesse Ventura - the navy seal who went through SERE school, the combat zone, and waterboarding. I'm sure he's just a big ***** too...

This is the problem with ideologues. If you divert from the ideological line one one issue you're not a pure-blood man. Anyone who is accusing me personally of relying on "Big Daddy Government" is an idiot who hasn't read the thread. I've never taken a dollar from welfare in my life, and made more than median salary on my last W2. As a single man, this allowed me to actually save 30% of my income. I've done well for myself in the marketplace.

How about this -
On the issue of illegal immigration, radical Islam, social justice (feminism/Black Lives Matter/the mythical wage gap) and more than a few other issues, I'm with Trump and the right. In fact, I may vote for him if it comes down to these issues. On that note hopefully I can get some of my "manliness" back with you guys.

I'm curious, for everyone who toes the party line through and through, are you for the war on drugs which the right has waged? Do you want to put me, somebody who smoked marijuana last week, in prison over it? Careful - one slip up and you might be less manly.

 

[BlueAlpha1]

@BlueAlpha1 ... I do not care much about the debate. I care less about politics. I am not trying to win anything here. Earned and cheated may as well be synonyms to me as I find deception to be a skill. Those who are able to use deception well have earned their victory over those who let themselves be deceived. Lastly, no I am not ashamed... I would figuratively put the knife to the back of anyone if necessary. I take pride in my willingness to get stuff done and not let anything get in my way. In fact, I deceive women on a daily basis as it gives me power over them. It is all just part of the game.

Fair enough. I tip my cap to you, because I can't disagree with much here.

 

[BlueAlpha1]

Hey , BlueAlpha .........this thread is about Europe's problems not about minimum wage. Quite frankly; you just sound like those occupy Wall Street b1tches. Do you wanna paid $25 to a burger flipper? Open your own rest. and do it , otherwise stop the fvcking whining.

Hey dummy, you're free to open the dialogue back up on Europe. Are you the thread police? I'll solve Europe right now - it's Muslims being Muslims. Deport them all back to the 7th century death-cult they came from, except for grandmothers and children under 10.

And let me educate you on something - the point of the minimum wage is so that a full-time employee working 40 hours a week doesn't have to live in poverty. That's it. It's actually an incentive to work if it moves with inflation accordingly. When you adjust for the rise in the cost of living since the 60's, the minimum wage should be $10.10. If the cost of living hadn't nearly doubled in the last three decades, there'd be no reason to move it at all.

Ill end with a 1st grade example: an employee making $7.00 has a $500 rent payment every month. He can get by, but barely. The landlord raises the rent 33% to $750. In order to get by, the employee now needs to make $10.50, and if he doesn't, don't be surprised if he gets on welfare. Which you the taxpayer subsidize. I'm surprised you'd rather subsidize it personally instead of the CEO.

 

[Tictac]

And let me educate you on something - the point of the minimum wage is so that a full-time employee working 40 hours a week doesn't have to live in poverty. That's it. It's actually an incentive to work if it moves with inflation accordingly. When you adjust for the rise in the cost of living since the 60's, the minimum wage should be $10.10. If the cost of living hadn't nearly doubled in the last three decades, there'd be no reason to move it at all..

Speaking of dummies dummy, $12 or $15 and hour will still be poverty. Look it up if you know how.

And there will be millions and millions fewer minimum wage jobs as companies create fewer minimum wage jobs, trim the ones they have, move them offshore and substitute technology for bodies.

It's really amazing that your brain generates enough energy so that your fingers can tap drivel on a keyboard.

 

[Who Dares Win]

Spare me any "studies." Confirmation bias affects almost every single one without fail. One of the most outspoken critics of this far-right capitalist machine that dabbles in a sort of fascism-lite is Jesse Ventura - the navy seal who went through SERE school, the combat zone, and waterboarding. I'm sure he's just a big ***** too...

This is the problem with ideologues. If you divert from the ideological line one one issue you're not a pure-blood man. Anyone who is accusing me personally of relying on "Big Daddy Government" is an idiot who hasn't read the thread. I've never taken a dollar from welfare in my life, and made more than median salary on my last W2. As a single man, this allowed me to actually save 30% of my income. I've done well for myself in the marketplace.

How about this -
On the issue of illegal immigration, radical Islam, social justice (feminism/Black Lives Matter/the mythical wage gap) and more than a few other issues, I'm with Trump and the right. In fact, I may vote for him if it comes down to these issues. On that note hopefully I can get some of my "manliness" back with you guys.

I'm curious, for everyone who toes the party line through and through, are you for the war on drugs which the right has waged? Do you want to put me, somebody who smoked marijuana last week, in prison over it? Careful - one slip up and you might be less manly.

You made yourself a movie out of a link I gave Danger to support his posts.

We dont need any study anyway to prove that those who feel weak want to "share the win" while those who are used to win want to keep it for themselves.

Has to be a coincidence that majority of women vote left while majority of men vote conservative, and surely those men who vote left are not exactly in the manly shade of the spectrum.

Right now being a leftist is about stealing money from the the people to let other people managed them (the government), pushing mass migrations of uncivilized people on your own soil while its obvious from any stats that they are more a cost than a benefit while those same stats show their crime rate his much higher than the locals, then you got the pink campaign made of gay adoptions and women pushed in positions that not always deserve.

Its not even about lower classes anymore since if you push an horde of third worlders the poor neighbourhood, the house of those poor locals while lose value so they cant even move away, lets not talk about salaries as well.

When your strongest fact to support your cause is to call "fascist" the opponent its clear you support a cloud of smoke.

The post is "WTF is happening to Europe", especially that part of Europe which followed leftist ideads, for fvck sake it needed a genius to make swedish welfare collapse and make their women under constant threath or rape from foreigners.

 

[YawataNoKami]

Guys, don't you get it , "BlueAlpha" is entitled to have a great job. $150,000 job.With no stress or worries. Doesn't matter his stupid degree.........nope. He and everyfvckingbody is entitled to a great job no matter what. Skills ; nope. Experience ; only a fascist will ask for that.


Like I said boy if you wanna talk about the minimum wage OPEN YOUR OWN THREAD.

 

[BlueAlpha1]

Guys, don't you get it , "BlueAlpha" is entitled to have a great job. $150,000 job.With no stress or worries. Doesn't matter his stupid degree.........nope. He and everyfvckingbody is entitled to a great job no matter what. Skills ; nope. Experience ; only a fascist will ask for that.


Like I said boy if you wanna talk about the minimum wage OPEN YOUR OWN THREAD.

Nah, I'll do it here. Just to get under your skin.

By the way, I'm entitled to a $250,000 job. Get it straight dummy.