Because I already found that once I was grabbed a few canned openers and was pushed into approaching chicks, I got over my fear of approaching in 5 minutes - before this I'd done 1 approach a year, now I do at least a dozen a week, and plan on doing more. What got me into it? Not constantly talking to myself and trying to figure out the nature of my internal beliefs, but real, physical action, which is more motivating. I'm not saying I don't analyse myself to try and overcome personal weaknesses, but without physical frameworks to follow this self criticism seems ephemeral and ineffective in the real world. I constantly try to reinforce and improve my mental frame, to back up what I use physically and externally and I find it helps a lot.
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TylerDurden’s 25 Point Checklist on Basic AFC (ie DJ) Mistakes
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zentraveller
Don Juan
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I've been powering through a lot of TylorDurden's posts because I think they are fascinating and valuable.
I think he himself will admit that with enough field work, your (sub)conscious mind will incorporate these "rules" automatically as you discover what works and doesn't work for you.
However, it doesn't hurt to go through this material first so that you absorb them by osmosis and don't make the obvious mistakes. Keep in mind, his thinking seems to be HEAVILY influenced by the A-list nightclub scene of Los Angeles. This place is *not* the real world and requires extremely strong personalities and tactics to be successful.
I can take a look at a lot of my night club flame outs now and finally *understand* what I did wrong. It almosts makes me to want to throw my head into the wall actually. How could I have been so stupid?
Finally, it appears that a lot of the critics on here are questioning the commercial motivations of TylerDurden/RSD. I've never taken a seminar with them and just started reading this stuff seriously a few weeks ago. However, based on what I have read, TylerDurden seems like an eloquent, thoughtful guy (but young) who has honed the art of PICKUP to a razor-sharp edge. There's a lot to be learned there.
I think he himself will admit that with enough field work, your (sub)conscious mind will incorporate these "rules" automatically as you discover what works and doesn't work for you.
However, it doesn't hurt to go through this material first so that you absorb them by osmosis and don't make the obvious mistakes. Keep in mind, his thinking seems to be HEAVILY influenced by the A-list nightclub scene of Los Angeles. This place is *not* the real world and requires extremely strong personalities and tactics to be successful.
I can take a look at a lot of my night club flame outs now and finally *understand* what I did wrong. It almosts makes me to want to throw my head into the wall actually. How could I have been so stupid?
Finally, it appears that a lot of the critics on here are questioning the commercial motivations of TylerDurden/RSD. I've never taken a seminar with them and just started reading this stuff seriously a few weeks ago. However, based on what I have read, TylerDurden seems like an eloquent, thoughtful guy (but young) who has honed the art of PICKUP to a razor-sharp edge. There's a lot to be learned there.
TonyTheTigerOI
Master Don Juan
[*]7) MOVING YOUR HANDS AROUND WHILE YOU TALK (= trying to keep the attention of the group (sometimes can be cool, but most often a form of qualifying yourself)
Mirroring is unbelievably effective... and its the simple use of your body as a tool of communication. By using your hands to fully articulate concepts of space/direction in the convo topic you simply develop a stronger relationship between your target and the topic - which allows the target to get involved in the discussion easier, and allows you to transition into a relationship between yourself and the target.
[*]12) ANSWERING QUESTIONS TOO QUICKLY/EARLY (= too much interest in the conversation
Same as above - when you pull a really great approach you want to be so interested in the TOPIC that you cant resist discussing it. You want a great relationship with the story/idea you are discussing so your target may develop one as well - allowing her to openly express her opinion, making it easier for you to make connections between you.
[*]15) NOT APPEARING MORE INTO YOUR WINGMAN THEN THE CHICK (= trying too hard to pick her up.. you've known your wingman longer than her.. why do you pay more attention to her than your wing???
THIS IS SO ****ING IMPORTANT!!!
Mirroring is unbelievably effective... and its the simple use of your body as a tool of communication. By using your hands to fully articulate concepts of space/direction in the convo topic you simply develop a stronger relationship between your target and the topic - which allows the target to get involved in the discussion easier, and allows you to transition into a relationship between yourself and the target.
[*]12) ANSWERING QUESTIONS TOO QUICKLY/EARLY (= too much interest in the conversation
Same as above - when you pull a really great approach you want to be so interested in the TOPIC that you cant resist discussing it. You want a great relationship with the story/idea you are discussing so your target may develop one as well - allowing her to openly express her opinion, making it easier for you to make connections between you.
[*]15) NOT APPEARING MORE INTO YOUR WINGMAN THEN THE CHICK (= trying too hard to pick her up.. you've known your wingman longer than her.. why do you pay more attention to her than your wing???
THIS IS SO ****ING IMPORTANT!!!
[*]12) ANSWERING QUESTIONS TOO QUICKLY/EARLY (= too much interest in the conversation
This is just a specific example of the rule to just relax, to take it easy. Same with the "don't turn your head to quick!" one. Set rules like this are a little too nit-picky imo. I think it is more effective to just don't act so desperate. If you have that mindset, a lot of these gimmicky rules will come naturally.
Think of the lack of 'game' as an open wound. Do you want to use lots and lots of bandaids to patch it together, so it eventually heals? Or do you use several stitches to fix the wound? Bandaid solutions are these nitpicky rules to memorize in situations. A much more effective way is to work on various parts of the mindset, and how you should be in terms of confidence. The 25 'rules' are good EXAMPLES, but I would never abide by them seperately.
This is just a specific example of the rule to just relax, to take it easy. Same with the "don't turn your head to quick!" one. Set rules like this are a little too nit-picky imo. I think it is more effective to just don't act so desperate. If you have that mindset, a lot of these gimmicky rules will come naturally.
Think of the lack of 'game' as an open wound. Do you want to use lots and lots of bandaids to patch it together, so it eventually heals? Or do you use several stitches to fix the wound? Bandaid solutions are these nitpicky rules to memorize in situations. A much more effective way is to work on various parts of the mindset, and how you should be in terms of confidence. The 25 'rules' are good EXAMPLES, but I would never abide by them seperately.
Bonhomme
Master Don Juan
Symptoms, not rules to live by
By and large, I agree with CLOONEY, xblitz, and blue, but nonetheless see some value in the list.
Upon reading this list, it's apparent that most of these -- I disagree with a few points -- are symptoms of bad game in a typical pickup context, definitely not hard-and-fast rules to live by. Everything is a bit different in the context of each situation.
Yes, good game about one's mindset. I was going to say there's no shortcut, but then, there are some guys who have a good foundation, and whose game can turn on a dime with just one "a-ha" realization, so that ain't necessarily so. But being too hung-up on rules gets one thinking more when they should be thinking less.
Nontheless, it's not a bad idea for an AFC on the road to recovery to learn such guidelines and -- more importantly -- the
theory behind them. It's more about having a gut awareness of what is going on. That can help develop one's game, but the important thing is to work on the real basics (charisma, expression of sexuality, self-respect, etc.).
By and large, I agree with CLOONEY, xblitz, and blue, but nonetheless see some value in the list.
Upon reading this list, it's apparent that most of these -- I disagree with a few points -- are symptoms of bad game in a typical pickup context, definitely not hard-and-fast rules to live by. Everything is a bit different in the context of each situation.
Yes, good game about one's mindset. I was going to say there's no shortcut, but then, there are some guys who have a good foundation, and whose game can turn on a dime with just one "a-ha" realization, so that ain't necessarily so. But being too hung-up on rules gets one thinking more when they should be thinking less.
Nontheless, it's not a bad idea for an AFC on the road to recovery to learn such guidelines and -- more importantly -- the
theory behind them. It's more about having a gut awareness of what is going on. That can help develop one's game, but the important thing is to work on the real basics (charisma, expression of sexuality, self-respect, etc.).
Those top 25 points are really good IMO. I think that people just need to have a go to see if it can help them, whether it is helping themselves internally or externally.
There is a saying that changing your beliefs can help you to achieve your goals. Similary it is also possible to take certain types of action (even on blind faith) and still achieve the same goal. Once the goal is achieved, the persons beliefs then change and the cycle is moving in the positive direction.
Having said all of that the point is that if you can make some 'external' event or strategy work well, then odds are that will change your belief system and hence affect you internally also.
I find this hard to describe, but if you change every single thing perfectly on the outside and you get good results, then that changes yourself interenally also and then you suddenly have the confidence (internally) that you were looking for all along.
On the other hand, what others have said is that you must only change yourself on the inside and all things will go well once you've settled the interal issues.
I think both points of view are correct only that they are different ways to get to the same position or state. I think that if you practiced this external stuff over and and over again, it will damn well change you internally.
Similarly, if you work hard on youself internally, it may or may not take longer but you will gradually get more confidence etc and you well get the same great results.
I guess one thing is clear though...there are certain internal things you got to get straightened out before you can have any success at all.
There is a saying that changing your beliefs can help you to achieve your goals. Similary it is also possible to take certain types of action (even on blind faith) and still achieve the same goal. Once the goal is achieved, the persons beliefs then change and the cycle is moving in the positive direction.
Having said all of that the point is that if you can make some 'external' event or strategy work well, then odds are that will change your belief system and hence affect you internally also.
I find this hard to describe, but if you change every single thing perfectly on the outside and you get good results, then that changes yourself interenally also and then you suddenly have the confidence (internally) that you were looking for all along.
On the other hand, what others have said is that you must only change yourself on the inside and all things will go well once you've settled the interal issues.
I think both points of view are correct only that they are different ways to get to the same position or state. I think that if you practiced this external stuff over and and over again, it will damn well change you internally.
Similarly, if you work hard on youself internally, it may or may not take longer but you will gradually get more confidence etc and you well get the same great results.
I guess one thing is clear though...there are certain internal things you got to get straightened out before you can have any success at all.
Dukester
Master Don Juan
love the post, excellent stuff. i would have to disagree w/ you on a few things- things that previous poster disagreed on as well.
i.e. if you remember something a girl says, like totally random- walking thru the mall, and she she says a stuffed animal that she likes- 8 months later you get it for her.
this shows that you actually listened and remembered which = a plus in your book.
i somewhat agree no the wingman thing. if you do focus all your attention on the chick, then it shows that you are way into her (even if you are). dont fully rely on ya wingman tho- but revert back to him as neccessary.
i.e. if you remember something a girl says, like totally random- walking thru the mall, and she she says a stuffed animal that she likes- 8 months later you get it for her.
this shows that you actually listened and remembered which = a plus in your book.
i somewhat agree no the wingman thing. if you do focus all your attention on the chick, then it shows that you are way into her (even if you are). dont fully rely on ya wingman tho- but revert back to him as neccessary.
zentraveller
Don Juan
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As I wrote before, I think TD's writings have been heavily influenced by his experience in picking up Los Angeles 9s and 10s from the A-list night clubs and venues (i.e. models, actresses, and the trophy girls who f*ck Hollywood actors, industry execs, and other high status guys). I think he wrote that he was bedding a different one per day at some point.
I also remember him writing that getting 7s and 8s just requires a mastery of the basics.
For me personally, a life-time of 7s and 8s with good attitudes sounds good to me.
I also remember him writing that getting 7s and 8s just requires a mastery of the basics.
For me personally, a life-time of 7s and 8s with good attitudes sounds good to me.
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Jvesti
Master Don Juan
I disagree with this post. But it is a great way to make things nice n complex guys for all they're worth while they have to do 80 zillion of the lessons. I'd encourage any newbie to not read this post unless they want to trip themselves up in a bad way. How do I know? Because I've been through the gauntlet already! All of this mechanical stuff comes from your internal state already which is what you should focus on. Change your life, become a masculine man and women will follow. Plain and simple, there is no such thing as a man who embodies masculinity that does not attract females. Maleness and Femaleness attract to each other like positive to negative.
Learning how to be a computer programmer you need technical schooling. You don't need a ****ing class full of tips and tricks to score with women, you don't need a handbook of funny lines. This stuff preys upon people with above average intelligence that have learned to get the right answer by "More information, more more more more". This is a big problem intelligent people have to overcome, their powerful minds become their captors making up excuses or thinking more info more info more info while sitting on a keyboard not taking action with girls, business, their dream etc.
A majority of guys who are good with women would either look at this post like it was insanity or laugh and say. STOP THINKING! Just act! ACT! ACT! Develope into a man, build yourself!
Oh and yes I'm getting to a response on the latest T Theory responses. I've been busy as hell lately. But I just had to respond to this thread because I have strong opinions against this kind of teaching.
Learning how to be a computer programmer you need technical schooling. You don't need a ****ing class full of tips and tricks to score with women, you don't need a handbook of funny lines. This stuff preys upon people with above average intelligence that have learned to get the right answer by "More information, more more more more". This is a big problem intelligent people have to overcome, their powerful minds become their captors making up excuses or thinking more info more info more info while sitting on a keyboard not taking action with girls, business, their dream etc.
A majority of guys who are good with women would either look at this post like it was insanity or laugh and say. STOP THINKING! Just act! ACT! ACT! Develope into a man, build yourself!
Oh and yes I'm getting to a response on the latest T Theory responses. I've been busy as hell lately. But I just had to respond to this thread because I have strong opinions against this kind of teaching.
Re: the original post on the 25 issues, I thought the information is generally good and useful, but many of the follow-ups correctly noted (IMO) that trying to remember all of the individual things not to do is going to be difficult. What is needed, I think, is a more succinct, concise understanding of the underlying dimensions at work. When I read over the list, my personal model of those things is "pleasant, slow(er), smooth, & controlled" (PSSC) to avoid seeming unsure and insecure - i.e., to present yourself more favorably as sort of 'self-contained' and 'your own man'. Pleasant, but not 'too nice'; Slow(er), because secure, confident people don't rush around or overreact to others; Smooth, in that there is a fluidity of movement and demeanor; Controlled, in that a level of self-restraint is evident. Casual, but not stuffy or stiff. Moderation is the key.
A simple model like the one I derived is something that I can certainly remember with no problem (e.g., when entering situations where babes abound). One of the things touched on in several of the checklist items that is very important is - all things equal - to say less than more... it helps with mystery, not saying the wrong thing inadvertently, showing interest in her by listening, not seeming self-centered, etc. It's also one of the main points of "The Art of Seduction", which I've found to be a great resource.
A simple model like the one I derived is something that I can certainly remember with no problem (e.g., when entering situations where babes abound). One of the things touched on in several of the checklist items that is very important is - all things equal - to say less than more... it helps with mystery, not saying the wrong thing inadvertently, showing interest in her by listening, not seeming self-centered, etc. It's also one of the main points of "The Art of Seduction", which I've found to be a great resource.
So Many Ways
Master Don Juan
I agree with this post. I can feel that.
Talking to women is not rocket science and I agree, for someone who has zero experience with women, trying to remember a bunch of stuff or routines or patterns or trying to remember to do this, do that etc just complicates things unnecessarily.
The guys who come up with this go out 7 days a week, yup, that's right, 7 days a week to pick up LA 10's and whatnot. I know speaking for myself, I am lucky if I can go out once every other week to meet women, my work shedule will not permit limitless hours to go "sarging", memorizing a bunch of routines and stuff like that. For someone new who may not have all the time in the world to practice multiple routines, this stuff won't help.
I think what you said is on point. The solution is simple, find your masculine side and let that shine. From that you gain the confidence necessary to do what you need to do and on top of that, your instincts will tell you what to do at what time. There's no need to memorize a bunch of stuff.
I'm not saying the points are bad necessarily, it just gets to be too much and there's no way someone who's new to the game is going to remember that. I should know.
I had a dream last night that I played a slot machine in Wal-Mart (God knows why) and won $25.
I'm firmly convinced that my subconscious is telling me to use TD's 25 Points.
These are all helpful observations, even if some of them seem extraneous at first. When you remember to do them in field, they help.
I've been reading the TD archive lately and it has a ton of good stuff in it.
Thought this post needed to be bumped.
Take care and Merry Xmas!
I'm firmly convinced that my subconscious is telling me to use TD's 25 Points.
These are all helpful observations, even if some of them seem extraneous at first. When you remember to do them in field, they help.
I've been reading the TD archive lately and it has a ton of good stuff in it.
Thought this post needed to be bumped.
Take care and Merry Xmas!
check_mate_kid_uk
Master Don Juan
there is 1 point i must argue against (the rest seem good) you say do not remember to much about a conversation from the past, well if you mean about what exactly was said then yeah i agree but if you mean dont remember the things she tells you about herself then your wrong because it shows you listen and girls love guys to listen, so aslong as you do not go over the top and know what she had for lunch last week and know her schedule better then she does, well then its a good thing to remember it.
As for feet at least 50cm apart i thought that sounds like way to much that it just looks stupid, but i tried it and realised that natrualy i stand 50cm apart from outside to outside, so do you mean outside to outside or inside to inside because that can be the diffrence of near 20cm!
As for feet at least 50cm apart i thought that sounds like way to much that it just looks stupid, but i tried it and realised that natrualy i stand 50cm apart from outside to outside, so do you mean outside to outside or inside to inside because that can be the diffrence of near 20cm!
