Discussion in 'The Hall of Excellence' started by Reyaj, May 1, 2007.
..keep it coming, macallik.
Part of the allure of the rake is their unwavering pursuit of the object of their affection. It is hard to imagine that someone has a motive outside of love and worship when they undertake all obstacles in pursuit of a target. Your persistence and dedication is a seduction in itself because it strokes the ego of the target and potentially reaffirms her confidence. It tells her, "There must be something special about me that he sees that no one else does because no one has ever pursued me like this before"
The key is to show no reservations, abandon all restraints and let yourself go. The seduction/chase of a rake turns a woman on in itself. They know they want to be more than a statistic but a part of them says just to give in to the urges that are overwhelming them. If a man has had thousands of women previously then he must be skilled, he must be special, he must have conquered stunning women, yet he is chasing her. Perhaps she believes she will be the one who will finally capture him or that she just wants to enjoy the seduction while it lasts? Either way, women often succumb to the Rake
The key to the Rake is to bring passion in relationship and situations where it is unrequited. Is her marriage stale? Is her boyfriend cheating? Perhaps just lonely and single? The Rake is never concerned about resistance because it simply goads him to try even harder which makes his love (which is actually lust) all the more apparent for the target.
The Rake never worries about going too far or coming off as desperate. The point of the Rake is to go further than the average man is willing to go. Once that happens, the Rake fills a void that the female longs for in her lover or her life in general.
Watch out for insignificant others of the females you seduce. Also, look out for AFC in general who are upset with your seeming immoral way of life. When parties do talk negatively about you, embrace it gracefully.
The Ideal Lover
While the Rake's unrelenting love is what makes many women swoon, it is the Ideal Lover's ability to always know exactly what the target wants in life and in a lover. While the Rake acts, the Ideal Lover reacts. The Rake shows the target that he needs her in his life while the Ideal Lover reflects what the target (@ times subconsciously) wants in her life.
The Ideal Lover is the most interesting and applicable technique I have read thus far. He is a jack of all trades: the type that can date multiple women and they would all potentially have vastly different descriptions of him. I think that the skills required for being an ideal lover is an ability to analyze the target and go into your mental database to figure out what tactics would be ideal.
To put it into modern day seduction terminology, an Ideal Lover is someone who can cold read, someone who can mirror a female and pace her reality. Paying attention to detail here is paramount. While most males only look at females and only see whether they are cute or not, the Ideal Lover also looks for specifics that can aid in seduction. If you see a female on the train in some sweatpants and her hair pulled back into a ponytail, you might think one thing, but if she has a $300+ designer bag, her nails newly pressed and a designer watch on, the impression will be different and you can gauge an idea of what topics will cause an positive/negative reaction. The cues that most overlook are what ideal lovers capitalize on.
Having the ability to actualize someone's dreams is extremely seductive. This is a big reason why many unattractive celebrities are sex symbols. It is not the money that is seductive but what being with the person who has money represents: a better life, your own business, etc. Rick Ross might not look sexy at $24,000 a year, but as a rapper with millions and the power to make a poor city girl's dreams come true, it is extremely seductive. Having the ability to make someone's dreams come true does not require money 99% of the time but rather an imaginiation and consistently reaffirming what they believes deep down inside but have yet to put into action.
Let's say you know a girl that works with you at some random store... 7/11 or TGIF or whatever. She hates her job like most people and sometimes to pass the time she pulls a Style magazine out of her couture handbag. Then when you sit down and think about it, she often blows her paycheck on shopping and that time you saw her at the mall a few weekends ago, she had a unique outfit on that really made her stand out. Clearly she has an interest in fashion. From here you don't ask her if she is a model because she looks beautiful or something corny like that. Instead you might ask her if she has ever thought about opening a fashion boutique for a living and if so what kind of clothes would she sell? Get her to visualize the new clothes smell as she takes designer clothing out of the bag and places it on the rack.
I am not insinuating to talk about couture fashion every time you cross paths. She might get the wrong impression and try to hook you up with one of her gay fashion friends or something. Instead, think of other topics that the average fashionista might enjoy based on personal experience and general stereotypes: metropolitan cities, European culture, dieting, Tyra Banks show (lol), and create new topics of discussions from them as well: Has she ever considered living in Paris, can she be your personal stylist for a day while you pick out some clothes, what would she talk about if she had her own talk show, etc. Take her on an adventure of all the possibilities in her head and reaffirm her ability to reach them consistently through mental simulation and repetition.
The point is, being the Ideal Lover is about paying attention to detail and using prior knowledge of a type to create inferences about the type of woman you are dealing with.
Robert Greene states that, “Nothing is more seductive than patient attentiveness.” I understand that it is important not to rush the seduction process but I am having trouble coming to grips with this personally. In today's world were netbooks start up time rivals a cellphones start up time, it is becoming harder and harder to stay patient. Perhaps this will be a good thing for seasoned seducers. There definitely has to be value conveyed or else remaining patient will also include watching the female fall for other guys repeatedly before she ends up with you
The danger of the ideal lover is that they cannot remain ideal forever. There will come a time when your lies trip you up or you get caught in a compromising position. The author says the best remedy for this situation is to create space between you and the target for the time being so that the pain and confusion of the conflicting characteristics is given a chance to subside and the previous notion overpowers the most recent impression.
The dandy appears to be a gender in a constant state of flux. The modern day version of a dandy would be a metrosexual male with his freshly groomed hair, a predisposition for fashion, pouty lips, and some form of jewelry on.
At first, I thought of classic pop culture icons of yesteryear like David Bowie or Prince but the more I think about it, someone such as Kanye West is also Dandy material: he is very fashion-conscious, he has redefined America's definition of a rapper, he embraces when people call him a devil worshiper and makes unwarranted comments to cause a ruckus constantly. He is effeminate compared to other rappers and in general as he throws tantrums at music awards or talks recklessly about his ex in the media. Yet he has this aura that states that he is going to say & do whatever he wants.
What was interesting about the Dandy's is that they all seem to have this sadistic streak inside of them and they take pleasure in abusing those that fall for them, almost as if they lash out at individuals in society who love them because society as a whole tend to judge and demoralize Dandies.
The key to being a dandy is ambiguity and a refusal to conform. The author states that part of the allure behind being a Dandy is the sexual taboo. A female dating a male that acts/looks like a female might say something about her subconscious in the same way that a female dating a guy that acts like her dad says something about her subconscious. It is likely accompanied with a subconscious attraction to repressed feelings or even a rush because it seems socially unacceptable.
The dangers of being a dandy is the dislike that you receive from your gender. Because you are redefining what it means to be a man, there are still those that are more traditional and consider you to be weak or a rumored homosexual. However, it is unwise to try to defend yourself against such accusations because showcasing brute masculinity will destroy the image you have created. Having rumors might take a while to stomach but it is a good sign because if you are opting to refuse to conform and go against the mold, then no press is bad press and as your reputation grows, so too shall your potential targets.
i read r greene s book didn t get anything from it loads of airy stuff not very realistic no meat doesn t give you the hands on strategies to screw those pussies
The point of the book is to understand the psychology of seduction. Think of it as supplementary, complementary. No guy with no game can read the book and walk away a pimp by just reading the book, but it's very potent when in combination with being mentored and gaining field experience.
This chapter was somewhat hard to grasp. The examples did not quickly bring to mind any ideas I could really draw or make inferences from. .
If your skill takes practice, you must had it and make it appear as natural as possible. This is the American way I believe. No one sees the work that is put in, they only see the results so as a result they marvel and worship certain people.
Hesitation and awkwardess are extremely anti-seductive. If you seem indecisive or unsure during a key moment of the seductive process, it will subconsciously become clear that you are too enveloped in your own mind to take advantage of hers.
An idea that stood out to me about natural seducers was the idea of innocence to the point of feigning naivete. There is something seductive and sexy about a woman who loves with all of her heart while the rest of the world moves towards love but always has a foot creeping towards the door. It is almost as if they are a kid who do not understand that all is fair in love and war and that most people have their guards up at all times. However, I don't really see the idea of a Natural as its own type of seducers. To me, the tactic of feigning innocence is just a skill that an Ideal Lover would use on those that long for the innocence of yesteryear. Those who find the Natural attractive are merely those who have a predisposition towards Innocence in their lives.
I suppose that innocence can be extremely seductive in today's world where everyone matures and becomes jaded so quickly but I cannot think of any real life counterparts in recent history. The only thing that comes to mind is child stars and as they get older they purposefully do things to shake their previous innocence: copious drug usage, sex videos, take on an overtly sexual persona, etc.
You must find an equal balance of childishness and adult features, if not it will seem more pathetic than endearing.
This tactic is one that is a bit more amoral than most of the others because you purposefully push and pull the target to elicit a response. Although most of the other themes tackled so far have dealt with stretching the truth or selling dreams, they all pump the target with positive feelings. The coquette on the other hand, purposefully shows negative feelings to the target to elicit a response. In SoSuave lingo, this would be a skillful mix of push and pull.
The essence of Coquette lies not in the tease and temptation but in the subsequent step back, the emotional withdrawal. That is the key to enslaving desire. The seduction tactic is so powerful because it causes the target to doubt her self-esteem. Their vanity is at stake whenever you turn from hot to cold. They start to wonder whether it was something they did, did you find someone cuter, are you just not interested any longer, etc.
Your greatest power is your ability to turn away to delay gratification for others and make them chase you to feel like they are earning and conquering your love. Many people are afraid that people will walk away if you play games, which is true to an extent, but for the most part, people will also likely jump ship when the person (and relationship) becomes predictable. Seduction is often a process of drawing people in. You have to create an interest or show that you can fill a void so that they reach for you and long for you. This is why ambiguity and eliciting values are key in seduction. If you are too direct in what you plan to offer, then the target take your actions and put her own slant on them. It is better to be ambiguous and even contradictory, frustrating at the same time that you stimulate.
The Coquette is so powerful because currently, society discourages direct confrontation so the passive aggressive tactic fits nicely into today's world. A male coquette would be someone like Mr. Big from the Sex and the City series. The protagonist of the series spends multiple seasons trying to determine where the two of them stand and whether he really likes her or whether he is just having fun.
The thing to remember about this tactic is that you are literally playing with someone's emotions. When it comes to push and pull, if you are not tactful in your actions, eventually the target will flee and have an extreme dislike for you. It is easy to become heavy-handed in the negative aspects of being a Coquette but one must remember that the target needs to feel the positive just as much if not moreso.
The Chapter on the Siren is probably one of the most important chapters in the book because it teaches us males what to watch out for.
I always thought 'The Charmer" was the most important one.
EDIT: Also macalik I'd love to see your views on the rest of the types/the techniques in the book.
This is my personal favorite one too Zodiac! The only think that bothered me is that the example he uses of Benjamin Disraeli doesn't actually show him having sexual relations with his target. It seems his buttering up of the queen gained him political favor. I want to use this to get poon!!! lol
Macalik awseome analysis man! I enjoy reading each of your feedback posts regarding AOS! Keep it up. I will responding soon
Well his Political Power most likely gave him pull and allowed the poon to come to him instead of him go to it least in my taking away from it. The allure of power has a way words doesn't.
The secret to capturing people's attention is to focus on things they have the least control over: their egos, their vanity and their self-esteem. Benjamin Disraeli states that if you, “Talk to a man about himself, and he will listen for hours.”
There is a quote in the book by Samuel Butler that uses a good analogy: “Birds are taken with pipes that imitate their own voices, and men with those sayings that are most agreeable to their own opinions.” The key to being a great conversationalist is to talk about things that interest the audience and what interests the audience more than themselves? However, the strategy can never be too obvious.
In a book on Disreali, it mentions that you should never argue and that if an opinion differs from yours, bow and turn the conversation. Don't openly assault opponents because this makes you look jealous and makes people question your motives. A Charmer might imply or say something that might have implicit negative meanings but will never commit something concrete and that openly defames a character.
A charmer speaks ambiguously and does not commit to any stance until they are aware what the target is interested in. Until you are certain, appeal to the general things to pass time before you figure out specifically what they are looking for.
Appealing in an all-encompassing way is something that politicians are amazing at. They usethese overarching ideals that everyone identifies with that morph and mesh with the times... things like Equality and Justice, and they constantly use them because it always strikes a chord regardless of the crowd. 225 years ago, it stood for rebelling against the Brits. 150 years ago they stood for abolishing slavery. 100 years ago it stood for equal rights for women.
In today's America alone, the ideals 'Justice' and 'Equality' stands for many things: equal rights for Homosexuals for some, rights for immigrants for others, taxing banks for others, and only charing the 1% the same rate as other tax payers for others. Regardless of the time, a politician will use these ideals to appeal to the masses and get what they want.
By talking about a general topic in a vague, ambiguous noncommittal manner, you allow others to impose their own contextual relevance on your words and identify with what you are saying in a much more. When discussing relationships or feelings, a charmer's ability to say things that won't get him in trouble until something hits home is key. An interesting convo showing that it is not what you say but how you say it and is shown in Stephen Colbert's funny interview with Frank Lutz.
The majority of the tips in the section illustrate that you should act in a way that doesn't make the target defensive/self-conscious/insecure or begin to question your motives.
A key difference between regular people and charmers is that Charmers notice how the exterior image doesn't always correlate with the internal drive. In other words, Charmers see oft overlooked potential and they also recognize desires that burn intensely below the surface. A lot of times, the staunch feminist is merely overcompensating for an underlying desire to be conquered by a man. A lot of times the gay bashing guy has an innate fear of some repressed feelings he doesn't want to deal with. Do not always let the outward appearance completely dictate what you expect someone's goals and desires to be.
People who are innately confident are less likely to succumb to the powers of a charmer. Personally I think these persons are few and far between but there are many people who you will have to dig deeper to find their insecurities/goals and use them charmingly. A beautiful girl with her sh!t together is not going to take compliments about her looks as well as a hot girl at the club with low self esteem. The more together a person is, usually the harder you have to delve into the person to find the chink in their armour.
We all know women love power. Applying these two books to seduction, which one do you think would be better for MLTRs?
AoS because many of the stories involving keeping someone attracted
Any chance of you finishing your analysis of the book?
This is one of the more literal chapters. Here is my breakdown:
The allure of the star is the neutrality that they carry themselves with combined with appearing cool. Looking cool is something that can be done with a bit of self confidence as well as studying some articles on positive body language. Regarding the neutrality of Stars, it is someone who is like a blank canvas. The lack of definable traits of the Star lets individuals project their own beliefs and emotions onto them. This is a vital part of the spell that they cast.
For example, if I show up to a church event, clean cut, nice dress shoes, but with a t-shirt that says 'I am pro-choice' then I have automatically alienated a large portion of the people there. If I wore a regular striped button-up shirt instead, then everyone in the church would subconsciously think how much of a standup guy I am, and all of the things we probably have in common. When the public believes that a person thinks like they do, they are more likely to identify with them.
Regarding courting, being a Star often entails more of a indirect shotgun approach rather than a direct sniper approach. Stars don't chase females and attempt to win them over; instead they create a spider web through their indifference and aloofness that many will inevitably fall into in the long run.
Using Star tactics is definitely a numbers game. You kill the idea of indifference and intrigue when you make your intentions know too soon or chase a female. If you are truly a Star then you are indifferent to the people that come and go because your lifestyle provides you with endless opportunities to meet willing women. When you find a target that you simply must have, you lose your Star personality because your actions are no longer indifferent towards the target. That isn't to say that you can't still seduce her, but you'd be better off switching to a more appropriate seduction type like Ideal Lover.
Stars wait for interest before they make their move. Attempting to directly woo an individual takes a Star off of their plateau and makes them regular. After the attraction is present, then the Star can show that they aren't nihilist, and that they are extremely passionate about certain things. Showing your human side to an individual while you have an impenetrable public persona can be seductive
As a star, you lay groundwork with your indifference and then seduce the females that show interest. However, as is always the case with casting a net, there will be always be fish that are caught that are not worth keeping. Stars have groupies and stalkers and other women who fall for them but are not up to par for a relationship. Handle these women carefully.
This is probably indirectly one of the most copied and least successful approaches to females. Trying to appear cool and indifferent works only when you are cool and indifferent. Anything else comes across as insecurity. You have to reach a point where you literally do not care what happens because success has become so routine.
Anyone who decides to run Star game needs to be aware that if this is not how they are truly, they will miss out on many opportunities with highly compatible females because the seducer is playing a role that his target demographic doesn't identify with. In other words, if you are a sheep in wolf's clothing, don't be surprised if you have a hard time attracting other sheep.
The Coquette and the charmer in my opinion is a lethal combination of seduction.
Focusing attention and then going cold will drive these women crazy.
On another note, this forum thought me to be the prize and let her chase... I took that literally and never gave them any attention, huge mistake.
I think the art of seduction is the only book worth reading, taking advice from sosuave and the pua can be very dangerous.. I learnt this the hard way.
Its sad that this thread is dead..
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