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The Art of Seduction Book Study
- Thread starter Reyaj
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Quiksilver
Master Don Juan
- Joined
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Hey Jayer, do you have the Venusian Arts book? I'm reading it these days and wouldn't mind having someone to discuss it with.
cheers
cheers
Reyaj
Master Don Juan
Is that Mysterys book? I'm currently reading the game.... I think thats more comprehensive
Anyway regarding AOS I just finished the chapter entitled "Creating Triangles"
They basically use a woman example of how she made 2 good friends compete over her.... basically jealousy.... This applies to women even more so from my experiences but you have to do it just right......
Greene emphasizes that people want someone that is desired because it means there must be something valuable to them.....
I'd love to hear of how someone used this to their advantage..... I've tried a few times by insinuating to girls I'm talking to that others girls are interested in me.... it seems to have the buying temperatue of a HB friend way up.... too bad im not into her LOL
Anyway regarding AOS I just finished the chapter entitled "Creating Triangles"
They basically use a woman example of how she made 2 good friends compete over her.... basically jealousy.... This applies to women even more so from my experiences but you have to do it just right......
Greene emphasizes that people want someone that is desired because it means there must be something valuable to them.....
I'd love to hear of how someone used this to their advantage..... I've tried a few times by insinuating to girls I'm talking to that others girls are interested in me.... it seems to have the buying temperatue of a HB friend way up.... too bad im not into her LOL
Reyaj
Master Don Juan
I just read the section on "Created a Need-Stir Anxiety and Discontent"
As usual the premise of a person having a need that needs to be fufilled is the precipice. He uses the example of being friends with a woman, but then making her feel insecure or that she is lacking certain things.... then being friendly and making her think you are the one to fill these voids.
Sounds good theoretically, however he doesn't really give clear examples as to how you can show you are the one to fill these voids indirectly... At least not that I've seen.
Thoughts people?
As usual the premise of a person having a need that needs to be fufilled is the precipice. He uses the example of being friends with a woman, but then making her feel insecure or that she is lacking certain things.... then being friendly and making her think you are the one to fill these voids.
Sounds good theoretically, however he doesn't really give clear examples as to how you can show you are the one to fill these voids indirectly... At least not that I've seen.
Thoughts people?
Reyaj
Master Don Juan
I read the chapter on using "Insinuation"
It basically says you should plant seeds to make woment hink they came up with it themselves. Reminds me off that Ross Jeffries quote about how if a woman think she came up with it, she'll go with it. This imho is a great chapter and a great tactic if mastered. I'm going to try using it with this girl I've been talking to to make it seem like its fate that brought us together.
It basically says you should plant seeds to make woment hink they came up with it themselves. Reminds me off that Ross Jeffries quote about how if a woman think she came up with it, she'll go with it. This imho is a great chapter and a great tactic if mastered. I'm going to try using it with this girl I've been talking to to make it seem like its fate that brought us together.
Reyaj
Master Don Juan
I just went through the chapter "Enter Their Spirit"
The example Green uses here is basically the president of Indonesia supplicating to an American reporter so that she can write a nice article about him. The point Greene makes is that by conforming to another person's personality and interests their defenses are lowered so that you can manipulate them into liking you. He hardly gives a clear example of how to do this though....
It just sounds like a like an advocate of AFCness and supplication though I can perhaps see the bigger picture...
The example Green uses here is basically the president of Indonesia supplicating to an American reporter so that she can write a nice article about him. The point Greene makes is that by conforming to another person's personality and interests their defenses are lowered so that you can manipulate them into liking you. He hardly gives a clear example of how to do this though....
It just sounds like a like an advocate of AFCness and supplication though I can perhaps see the bigger picture...
broken dreams
Senior Don Juan
i started skiming this book, casanova and don juan both had different styles so its erelevant to say one thing is better. it is wise to see for when to use it.
I stopped reading stuff to recover from info overload but since i go out i started reading again.
I have the audio book so its cool.
somethings though arent structured well. I will start reading david deida book since all top guys recommend this so much as an inner game self respect book. we'll see...
Im glad jayer you are taking this seriously bro. thats the only way to success in anything in life.
respect.
S
I stopped reading stuff to recover from info overload but since i go out i started reading again.
I have the audio book so its cool.
somethings though arent structured well. I will start reading david deida book since all top guys recommend this so much as an inner game self respect book. we'll see...
Im glad jayer you are taking this seriously bro. thats the only way to success in anything in life.
respect.
S
Reyaj
Master Don Juan
Thanks Broken. How's that David Deida book? I like AOS... it basically lets you understand seduction as an art ala its title....broken dreams said:
I just read the Chapter on "Create Temptation" . He basically illustrates that you should find out what your target wants and show that you can provide that and then use a lot of push and pull....
Pretty typical
U DO REALISE JOSEPH MATHEWS (author) attempted suicide ........OVER A CHIC RIGHT!!!!
Now in his defense hid did turn his life around and dedicate it to becoming a master............
pickup artists origins is a good post.........search it on here
Now in his defense hid did turn his life around and dedicate it to becoming a master............
pickup artists origins is a good post.........search it on here
Reyaj
Master Don Juan
Who the heck is Joseph matthews? Robert Greene wrote this book dude
Anyways I just read the chapter on "Keep Them in Suspence, what comes next"
He basically used an example of a woman seducing a guy... in this case Giovanni Cassanova was the victim, the greatest of all seducers...
She basically was elusive yet calculating as she lured him on an unpredictable journey.
I guess what we can take out of this is to be unpredictable... be calculating as in take your woman to new places and really put effort into showing her a good time
Actually quite contrary to what the DJ forum advocates
Green states that when you are spontaneous its cause you are lazy... but what you actually plan things the woman will take notice of your effort and be a lot more into you....
???????????
Anyways I just read the chapter on "Keep Them in Suspence, what comes next"
He basically used an example of a woman seducing a guy... in this case Giovanni Cassanova was the victim, the greatest of all seducers...
She basically was elusive yet calculating as she lured him on an unpredictable journey.
I guess what we can take out of this is to be unpredictable... be calculating as in take your woman to new places and really put effort into showing her a good time
Actually quite contrary to what the DJ forum advocates
Green states that when you are spontaneous its cause you are lazy... but what you actually plan things the woman will take notice of your effort and be a lot more into you....
???????????
Reyaj
Master Don Juan
Just finished section on using demonic words to sow confusion...
key points
indirect method by acting uninterested.... then acting very interested but using amigibious words to make your target imagine and fantasize what they want
When they are on hook.. pull back a little to make them think you may be losing interest... they will try harder
Make ambigious but rosy future promises
Compliment their insecurities.... those things which they seek validation....
key points
indirect method by acting uninterested.... then acting very interested but using amigibious words to make your target imagine and fantasize what they want
When they are on hook.. pull back a little to make them think you may be losing interest... they will try harder
Make ambigious but rosy future promises
Compliment their insecurities.... those things which they seek validation....
Yo Jay, I just got this book along with 48 Laws of Power (and Survivor by Palahunik too...!) last week.
I got started and read the first chapter about Siren. Nothing to add because that chapter is mainly directed towards women. I *guess* a man could use it but you'd have to be very skillful not only in conjuring up those images and fantasies BUT also make sure you don't come off very AFC (you know, like this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ewsk5x7V2sE).
Either way, I could never see myself pulling something like what the chapter suggest. Although, I have had experiences with some Sirens in the past. I was pretty astonished to find so many similarities between what was written about the Siren and from my personal experience with these girls.
I remember one girl, she had a sorta chunky face, but everything else about her screamed pure, raw feminine sexuality! Her jewelry, the way she let her long, black hair flow, her 5'3" frame, her big ass, and her fancy, artsy clothes...just very goddess like! Her eyes were pretty mesmerizing! She had this childlike innocence to her voice, appearance, and general curiosity too.
Funny thing is, she *did* have an effect on all sorts of men. From a borderline flamboyant emo-dressed guy to a wrestling sports athlete to a ghetto ballin' player! These guys seemed to be putting her on a pedestal and generally agreeing with her every chance they got. In class, you could tell that all these guys were focused on her, even though they were staring ahead at the prof. You know what I mean?
I'll be honest, I almost fell into her spell too. Well, I guess I did but I was like Odysseus, and tied myself to the ship so I wouldn't drown but could still hear the Siren's music.
The thing is, it's easy to attract Sirens because a) they want you to attract them so they can put their "spell" on you and b) because you don't have to do anything but put them on a pedestal to make you think that you're attracting them.
However, what I did was I paid 0 attention to her when she was around and that made her think that something was wrong with me (she told me later that she thought I was blind because I wouldn't notice her everytime lol).
Then, I started challenging her beliefs and stance on certain things directly while providing my belief/stance of my own. What this did was show her that I wasn't easily influenced by her grandiose, sexual presence and could hold my own. At the end, we would agree to disagree.
I basically kept upping the ante everytime we interacted and I let her know that she has to do "better than that" if she wants to hold *my* attention and wants *my* agreement. I'll admit this was tough to do because all I could think about was putting her into different sexual positions to see how good the sex would be everytime I talked to her face to face.
I only had sex with her once because it turned out that she was pretty terrible in bed. My desire for her went south after all the makeup, jewelry, clothes, and the idea of great sex came down and left the room.
The point is, Sirens are pretty tough to *not* be seduced by but if you keep some things in mind, you won't be "jumping off ships and drowning" in the process:
- They only want your attention. Don't give it to them. And when you do, make it known that you're not fazed by her beauty and she will have to put up a bigger scene to impress you.
- Challenge them. Ridicule them when the moment is right. Very few men have been able to do that to her before. Become one of these few men and you will see her true self...
- ...which may or may not be what you had envisioned this whole time. After all that outside appearance comes off, she'll be pretty average in bed. Which will just disappoint you because you had thought she was larger than life this whole time, but in the most basic of primal human acts, she's pretty typical.
Well, those are my thoughts and experiences on first chapter. I know we're not on that chapter now but I just got this book after putting it off for a long time. And I just wanted to offer my outlook.
By the way Jay, you should think about starting a study for 48 Laws...I'm sure lot of people would join in because more people on here have read 48 Laws than AOS.
I got started and read the first chapter about Siren. Nothing to add because that chapter is mainly directed towards women. I *guess* a man could use it but you'd have to be very skillful not only in conjuring up those images and fantasies BUT also make sure you don't come off very AFC (you know, like this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ewsk5x7V2sE).
Either way, I could never see myself pulling something like what the chapter suggest. Although, I have had experiences with some Sirens in the past. I was pretty astonished to find so many similarities between what was written about the Siren and from my personal experience with these girls.
I remember one girl, she had a sorta chunky face, but everything else about her screamed pure, raw feminine sexuality! Her jewelry, the way she let her long, black hair flow, her 5'3" frame, her big ass, and her fancy, artsy clothes...just very goddess like! Her eyes were pretty mesmerizing! She had this childlike innocence to her voice, appearance, and general curiosity too.
Funny thing is, she *did* have an effect on all sorts of men. From a borderline flamboyant emo-dressed guy to a wrestling sports athlete to a ghetto ballin' player! These guys seemed to be putting her on a pedestal and generally agreeing with her every chance they got. In class, you could tell that all these guys were focused on her, even though they were staring ahead at the prof. You know what I mean?
I'll be honest, I almost fell into her spell too. Well, I guess I did but I was like Odysseus, and tied myself to the ship so I wouldn't drown but could still hear the Siren's music.
The thing is, it's easy to attract Sirens because a) they want you to attract them so they can put their "spell" on you and b) because you don't have to do anything but put them on a pedestal to make you think that you're attracting them.
However, what I did was I paid 0 attention to her when she was around and that made her think that something was wrong with me (she told me later that she thought I was blind because I wouldn't notice her everytime lol).
Then, I started challenging her beliefs and stance on certain things directly while providing my belief/stance of my own. What this did was show her that I wasn't easily influenced by her grandiose, sexual presence and could hold my own. At the end, we would agree to disagree.
I basically kept upping the ante everytime we interacted and I let her know that she has to do "better than that" if she wants to hold *my* attention and wants *my* agreement. I'll admit this was tough to do because all I could think about was putting her into different sexual positions to see how good the sex would be everytime I talked to her face to face.
I only had sex with her once because it turned out that she was pretty terrible in bed. My desire for her went south after all the makeup, jewelry, clothes, and the idea of great sex came down and left the room.
The point is, Sirens are pretty tough to *not* be seduced by but if you keep some things in mind, you won't be "jumping off ships and drowning" in the process:
- They only want your attention. Don't give it to them. And when you do, make it known that you're not fazed by her beauty and she will have to put up a bigger scene to impress you.
- Challenge them. Ridicule them when the moment is right. Very few men have been able to do that to her before. Become one of these few men and you will see her true self...
- ...which may or may not be what you had envisioned this whole time. After all that outside appearance comes off, she'll be pretty average in bed. Which will just disappoint you because you had thought she was larger than life this whole time, but in the most basic of primal human acts, she's pretty typical.
Well, those are my thoughts and experiences on first chapter. I know we're not on that chapter now but I just got this book after putting it off for a long time. And I just wanted to offer my outlook.
By the way Jay, you should think about starting a study for 48 Laws...I'm sure lot of people would join in because more people on here have read 48 Laws than AOS.
Reyaj
Master Don Juan
The Bat said:
Glad you are on board man! The 48 Laws of Power is next don't worry. That was the plan from the get go. You have a lot of catching up to do but I'm looking forward to hearing your insight on the different sections. I like how you showed real world examples too.... I feel a lot of this forum lacks that
You basically used the mystery method on your fat siren victim.... neg hitted her and made her qualify herself.... I wonder if that's the best framework for sirens in general... thanks for the insight!
Well I just read the section "Pay Attention to Detail"
Greene basically talked about how you should try use gifts and fancy clothes or colognes to distract your victim so you can seduce them. Unfortunately he doesn't give any clear direction as to how to seduce them while they are in this distraction....
More advocation of supplication if you ask me....
Moving on!
Reyaj
Master Don Juan
I just read the section on "Poetcize your Presence"
They used a female seducing a male example and basically showed this by having her supplicate to the man's interests and by giving him constant attention. Then when he was jailed he didnt get to see her and he missed her so much that she crystallized in his mind. THe whole part about associating yourself with mythic figures really doesn't apply today like it did in ancient Roman and Greek times but I think he basically is saying don't appear ordindary.
Absence makes the heart grow fonder..... definitely true in my experiences. Here are some good lines Greene to take out of this chapter....
Occupy their minds by alternating an exciting presence with a cool distance, exuberant moments, followed by calculated absenses.
The need to idealize extends to our romantic entangelments because when we fall in love, or under the spell of another person, we see a reflection of ourselves. The choice we make in deciding to become involved with another person reveals something important and intimate about us; we resist seeing ourselves as having fallen for someone who is cheap or tracky or tastless because it reflects badly on who we are.
The rest of the chapter talks about more supplication.... make a woman feel like a Goddess by make comparisons...
blah blah blah
Thoughts?
They used a female seducing a male example and basically showed this by having her supplicate to the man's interests and by giving him constant attention. Then when he was jailed he didnt get to see her and he missed her so much that she crystallized in his mind. THe whole part about associating yourself with mythic figures really doesn't apply today like it did in ancient Roman and Greek times but I think he basically is saying don't appear ordindary.
Absence makes the heart grow fonder..... definitely true in my experiences. Here are some good lines Greene to take out of this chapter....
Occupy their minds by alternating an exciting presence with a cool distance, exuberant moments, followed by calculated absenses.
The need to idealize extends to our romantic entangelments because when we fall in love, or under the spell of another person, we see a reflection of ourselves. The choice we make in deciding to become involved with another person reveals something important and intimate about us; we resist seeing ourselves as having fallen for someone who is cheap or tracky or tastless because it reflects badly on who we are.
The rest of the chapter talks about more supplication.... make a woman feel like a Goddess by make comparisons...
blah blah blah
Thoughts?
Reyaj
Master Don Juan
The section "Disarm Through Strategic Weakness and Vulnerability"
The example Greene used really didn't impress me since at the end the married woman felt guilty over her feelings for the Don Juan and didn't act on them..........
The message I think this chatper sends is that showing weakness or human vulnerability makes your target feel comfortable. You must of course make this calculated and not over do it.
The decent lines out of this chapter I think are important:
"Seduction is a game of reducing suspicion and resistance. The cleverest way to do this is to make the other person feel stronger, more in control of things."
Now I agree with the first part of that line.... but the part about making the other person feel in control..... I don't know... I've found sometimes women want you to lead and show them an unpredictable adventure. This is kind of contradictory.
"Honest is more important than virtue, and one honest gesture will blind them to many deceitful acts" "Make your weakness a comfort, and play the victim-of their power over you, of circumstances, of life in general. This is the best way to cover your tracks"
Does this lead to sexual attraction is my question?
"Remember what is natural to your character is inherently seductive" "People who display no weakness, on the other hand, often elicit envy, fear, and anger-we want to sabotage them just to bring them down"
The example Greene used really didn't impress me since at the end the married woman felt guilty over her feelings for the Don Juan and didn't act on them..........
The message I think this chatper sends is that showing weakness or human vulnerability makes your target feel comfortable. You must of course make this calculated and not over do it.
The decent lines out of this chapter I think are important:
"Seduction is a game of reducing suspicion and resistance. The cleverest way to do this is to make the other person feel stronger, more in control of things."
Now I agree with the first part of that line.... but the part about making the other person feel in control..... I don't know... I've found sometimes women want you to lead and show them an unpredictable adventure. This is kind of contradictory.
"Honest is more important than virtue, and one honest gesture will blind them to many deceitful acts" "Make your weakness a comfort, and play the victim-of their power over you, of circumstances, of life in general. This is the best way to cover your tracks"
Does this lead to sexual attraction is my question?
"Remember what is natural to your character is inherently seductive" "People who display no weakness, on the other hand, often elicit envy, fear, and anger-we want to sabotage them just to bring them down"
Reyaj
Master Don Juan
The section "Confuse Desire and Reality- The Perfect Illusion"
This chapter basically says to use a lot of metaphors and descriptive languages in your dialogue. It also says to use spectacles if possible to make yourself seem somewhat of a fantasy..... again basically showing that you are special.
The examples Greene used I don't find very applicable to modern day seduction. First of all the homosexual story is quite ridiculous.... the subject must have had tendencies to begin with so I'm really going to dismiss that..... and the story about the Potemkin fooling the empress is more political seduction than that of sexual..... Still here are the lines that I think matter
Remember to evelop the seduction slowly.
Your task as a seducer is to bring some flesh and blood into someone's fantasy life by embodying a fantasy figure, or creating a scenario resembling that person's dreams. You must first choose targets who have some repression or dream unrealized-always the most likely victims of seduction. Slowly and gradually you will build up the illusion that they are getting to see and feel and live those dreams of theirs. Once they have this sensation they will lose contact with reality, and being to see your fantasy as more real than anything else.
Create the appearance of normality. One your targets feel secure-nothing is out of the ordinary-you have room to decieve them.
So to sum it up, people will believe what they want to believe. It is your job to make them believe you are the one they attracted to. That is one fantasy and reality streamline into virtually the same thing.
This chapter basically says to use a lot of metaphors and descriptive languages in your dialogue. It also says to use spectacles if possible to make yourself seem somewhat of a fantasy..... again basically showing that you are special.
The examples Greene used I don't find very applicable to modern day seduction. First of all the homosexual story is quite ridiculous.... the subject must have had tendencies to begin with so I'm really going to dismiss that..... and the story about the Potemkin fooling the empress is more political seduction than that of sexual..... Still here are the lines that I think matter
Remember to evelop the seduction slowly.
Your task as a seducer is to bring some flesh and blood into someone's fantasy life by embodying a fantasy figure, or creating a scenario resembling that person's dreams. You must first choose targets who have some repression or dream unrealized-always the most likely victims of seduction. Slowly and gradually you will build up the illusion that they are getting to see and feel and live those dreams of theirs. Once they have this sensation they will lose contact with reality, and being to see your fantasy as more real than anything else.
Create the appearance of normality. One your targets feel secure-nothing is out of the ordinary-you have room to decieve them.
So to sum it up, people will believe what they want to believe. It is your job to make them believe you are the one they attracted to. That is one fantasy and reality streamline into virtually the same thing.
Reyaj
Master Don Juan
I read the section on "Isolate the Target"
He used the Arab Rake seducing Rita Hayword... but he did this by basically supplicating her with flowers, gifts, and trips.. It eventually worked and the idea of doing things to keep you on a girl's mind is all well and good.... but still I think his example are a little extreme.
He basically says that isolating a girl from her environment makes her mure suceptible to your charms..... I agree but he also warns that you shouldn't do this too quickly or the target freaks out......
So I basically agree with the premise but think Greene's examples aren't practical today...
He used the Arab Rake seducing Rita Hayword... but he did this by basically supplicating her with flowers, gifts, and trips.. It eventually worked and the idea of doing things to keep you on a girl's mind is all well and good.... but still I think his example are a little extreme.
He basically says that isolating a girl from her environment makes her mure suceptible to your charms..... I agree but he also warns that you shouldn't do this too quickly or the target freaks out......
So I basically agree with the premise but think Greene's examples aren't practical today...
Reyaj
Master Don Juan
So the next section I just read talks about doing something sacrificing to win a girl's emotions.... There is so much AFC propaganda in this section that is contrary to what this board advocates.... The example he used was a suitor having his own tooth pulled out in front of a girl who was afraid to have hers pulled out cause she needed it done..... Greene basically says that by showing a girl you will sacrifice for her and put her above all you will win her over.....
Now honestly I think that with a lot of hot girls this may actually be their mentality...... I mean if a hot girl has a lot of potential guys vieing for her attention... wouldn't she pick the one who would go the furthest for her???
I've actually nexted a lot of girls in my life because I felt they were too demanding and by giving in or supplicating to them I'd actually be making them unattracted to me... a lot of the reason I have done that is based on the whole DHV concept and being the Prize so to speak as this board teaches...
I think it really depends on what you want though.... Some girls will supplicate to you because that is their character... and others (too many) prefer you supplicate to them and pretty much expect it... when you say next they move on quickly believe me...
So its either feel good that your sacrifices have earned you your woman but have to deal with constant head aches or DHV it and find a woman who will be fully committed to you and your happiness but maybe feel like you are settling....
I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts here...........
Now honestly I think that with a lot of hot girls this may actually be their mentality...... I mean if a hot girl has a lot of potential guys vieing for her attention... wouldn't she pick the one who would go the furthest for her???
I've actually nexted a lot of girls in my life because I felt they were too demanding and by giving in or supplicating to them I'd actually be making them unattracted to me... a lot of the reason I have done that is based on the whole DHV concept and being the Prize so to speak as this board teaches...
I think it really depends on what you want though.... Some girls will supplicate to you because that is their character... and others (too many) prefer you supplicate to them and pretty much expect it... when you say next they move on quickly believe me...
So its either feel good that your sacrifices have earned you your woman but have to deal with constant head aches or DHV it and find a woman who will be fully committed to you and your happiness but maybe feel like you are settling....
I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts here...........
Reyaj
Master Don Juan
Luke!! said:
Yeah see thats the thing though... on one hand if you make it seem effortless you are doing what this board says... but in AOS he says even if it is effortless make it seem like you put a lot of effort into it... basically by showing how far you will go for the girl will win her over..... So it's kind of contradictory.... I have been reading this board for a while and the message here is basically that of demonstrating higher value... and not supplicating to a girl...... If this board is against sending a girl flowers you are interested in... you think it would advocate having a tooth of yours pulled out in front of the girl like Greene's chapter says!?!?!??!
FoolsCause
Don Juan
My last target was a combination of "disappointed dreamer" and "novice". It went bad when I didn't follow Greene's advice:Jayer said:
"If you give them a part of what they want, they will imagine the rest. At all cost, do not let reality break the illusion you are creating. One moment of pettiness and they will be gone, more bitterly disappointed than ever."
I initially spoke of travel to Paris, but didn't follow up on it, or build on the "professional" image she had of me.
The categories, I think, can be useful in choosing the right strategy for your target. However, it can be difficult to know where someone falls when you first meet her. I think seducing a "sensualist", with colors, smells and sounds, would be interesting, and strangely like feng shui.