Reasons for Marriage

[LiveYourDream]

If she leaves because you won't marry her, she's not devoted to you anyway, she's devoted to the idea of being married.

I am devoted to my man, not the need for some piece of paper recognizing our relationship. You could never encapsulate the heart of the best relationship onto paper, even if you tried.

A piece of paper does not inspire true love, devotion, bonding and loyalty. Those come from inside (or not.) If a contract is believed to be required, then, to me, is not really about love, devotion, bonding and loyalty, it is servitude disguised as such.

Sadly, for many young women, the drive for marriage is more about the "idea" of marriage than the realities. Many are caught in fulfilling "her" dream of "her" being a bride, picking out and wearing "her" dream wedding dress, "her" being the center of attention on "her" special day, that "she" dreamed up and created, often at great expense (usually, of others). Thereafter "she" gets to wear the label of "wife."

I missed the drive for engagement where "she" is proposed to, "she" is offered a ring, "she" says yes or no, and "she" flaunts "her" engagement ring as a symbol, not of a man's love so much, but of "her" worth. "She" gets the opportunity/permission to boast at how special the proposal was, signifying how special "she" is and how much he loves "her" all while implying other women should be jealous and feel inadequate in comparison.

I missed that "she" fills out the bridal registry and picks out what gifts "she" (they) would like for "them." I have to stop, because I could go on and on.

It's sad to me. Many young women put more time and energy into the creation and build up of the wedding, than they do into the relationship, once they are engaged.

Certainly all of that can all happen very differently. But sadly, for many or actually most, it really doesn't. It's all about her. He seems to disappear or fade as her priority. Sad in every way, to me.

If a woman believes she 'needs' a big engagement ring, ( a wedding), and not just a wedding, but a big wedding at that, I'd suggest the man run, or re-evaluate his consideration of her based on those things alone and then run and never look back.

 

[phillies]

@phillies I don't disagree entirely with your point. There are women who refuse their husbands sex, there are lazy women out there who fail to keep their end of the bargain. I think those sorts of women are horrid. However your view is limited. Here are some things to consider

Marriage is not 100% divorce rate. It remains around 50% in the US. So approximately half of marriages do not fail. Some are good solid marriages. The key is to be a good man, be able to recognize a good woman and for the man to be a good leader in the marriage and the wife a devotee to her husband's endeavors (yes while sacrificing her own interests toward the husband's cause.)

It is true @Reyaj that many/most "quality" women seek marriage. This is how most traditional feminine women are raised. They get chosen early so the rest of the dating pool is leftovers or rejects to a degree. I do agree that some of these "good" women do end up back on the market after divorce, or even from being widowed. And the real quality women at any age are in enough demand that the women worth having as a "good" and "devoted" wife can find a man who will enter the marriage partnership if that is the aim. The trick is to pick the right woman if you are considering marriage.

You can have a life partner without marriage. I have friends like this who have been committed in a LTR for over 10 years. You must communicate your desire not to marry and find a woman who is agreeable to this. Also understand that without marriage end of life issues cannot automatically transfer to your GF. If you want a life partner outside marriage you need to specify legally and specifically how things will go in the event of your demise. While marriage has many legal liabilities in the view of the manosphere, there are legal benefits as well, especially as pertains to estate planning and parenting as some legally recognized examples where the law is supportive of the spousal status.

A good wife can absolutely add great value to her husband's life. The needs of a couple change over years together. Sex is more important during youth. Intimacy is built over time. Companionship and other non sexual values become far more important for elderly couples for example.



Not always true. A woman who marries makes her life harder in some ways, easier in others perhaps, but that is a matter of perspective.

My parents met in law school. Both have law degrees and both were working in the legal field when they married. My Dad wanted a full time wife and mother for his children. My mom honored his wishes and dropped her career (college educated, holding a law degree - not an inexpensive education) to be his wife and raise kids for the next 20 years. For 16 of those years she was out of the workforce at my father's request. My mother was capable of making 100K per year as an attorney or much more than that. Over her 16 years out of the workforce my mom gave up the ability to create 1.6 million in income that she could have made independent of my Dad. She also was out of the workforce during her peak income years (statistically speaking) and so missed these opportunities. Meanwhile she cared for the children (no day care or childcare costs incurred), entertained clients in the home, managed the bills, laundry, and household duties, and assisted my Dad at the office some once we all started in school. My mom is BPD nuts and eventually pushed my Dad away but all she got out of the divorce asset-wise was a house worth 195K. So one could make the argument that she actually got seriously financially shortchanged based on her giving up her income producing ability and prime income earning years in support of my father's career.

Many wives (good ones) do a great deal to support and encourage and facilitate the success of the husbands while giving up their own earning capacity and income potential to do so. That is the value I am talking about from a money perspective...never mind the value a stable home contributes to child rearing. There is a reason sites like SS advocate that you find a woman whose parents are still married. It is seen as an indicator of a stable upbringing and familiarity with more traditional male/female roles.



Marriage is about far more than sex upon demand. I can also tell you that having been the high earner and sole breadwinner in my own marriage for many years, the court will strip assets from the woman just as surely as the courts will strip assets from the man. The court seeks to divide assets with some equality, especially if there is a big income disparity between spouses. The high wage earner often gets stripped of some assets under the court's assertion that the high wage earner retains earning power, but that isn't always the man. Trust me I didn't like it any more than the guys on here but it is what it is.



Again you focus just on sex (very important I agree totally - however) You are skewed to a young man's view and do not see all the perspectives. Married people who are sick and have a spouse devoted to being their advocate and/or caregiver will tell you they are blessed to have someone to look after them and their care as they age or are infirm. Companionship is most important in the elderly years. My step mom of 30 years has been by my father's side as he has battled cancer, had strokes, dealt with all sorts of health issues; she is seeing about his needs at 78 years of age (despite her own cancer and health issues) and she continues to put my 80 year old Dad first and assist him as his life partner. She will be steadfast by his side until he dies. Then his estate will look after her (as will I and my siblings). As it should be. She has devoted her life to serve him as a great wife.

Marriage is about life partnership. In a partnership each partner brings value. Sex is but one piece of a much more complex puzzle for a marriage to last.

Just because they don't get divorced doesn't mean the marriage is good or that the wife is a good one or that she's loyal. The simple fact is that we need to change a system where women get a cash prize for divorce where the husband makes more. Women aren't victims. Women take advantage of old laws that were ment to protect them when they weren't allowed to have a career.

We need to make it difficult to get alimony and the alimony they do get should be minimal regardless of his income and for a limited amount of time.

If you don't think our current system is completely unfair to men you're delusional. Women have had equal rights for a long, long time. They shouldn't get the traditional benefits.

 

[LiveFreeX]

I am devoted to my man, not the need for some piece of paper recognizing our relationship. You could never encapsulate the heart of the best relationship onto paper, even if you tried.

A piece of paper does not inspire true love, devotion, bonding and loyalty. Those come from inside (or not.) If a contract is believed to be required, then, to me, is not really about love, devotion, bonding and loyalty, it is servitude disguised as such.

Something smells fishy here. Marriage was and always has been about the contract and yes it is the ultimate leap of faith. Whether you are devoted to your man is neither here nor there, the point remains, 'he's just not that into you' and you as a woman are going to justify your relationship and rationalize all sorts of stuff that show this. Ask a muslim woman if marriage is important...women of all cultures seek official ownership save one, feminist culture.

You are either completely in denial or a gay man.

If she leaves because you won't marry her, she's not devoted to you anyway, she's devoted to the idea of being married

Lets be honest here boys, if you aren't willing to marry her, you are communicating a very clear message, you aren't THAT into her. Marriage in America is a raw deal, american men should not marry in America with American rules on marriage. Ask her if she'll convert to muslim or christian fundamentalism, be willing to cover her entire body in public for the rest of eternity and exist under sharia law.or a similar system for you because THAT is DEVOTION.

We have all established that the first world is falling apart but you can still make a change in your personal life and travel to where the marriage ideal is still something that is protected under law.

Would you enter into a business where your partner claims he is devoted to the business but has yet to cough up any money, assets or sign a contract? No of course not. A business contract is important to a business, it sets the rules and regulations that both parties must abide by, includes a mission statement and how much both are expected to give and take. More importantly it is enforced by L A W. The same applies to a marriage. Without that contract, all the devotion in the world won't produce anything tangible and if the L A W isn't willing to treat both parties fairly, there really is no reason to waste time playing house.

 

[samspade]

It's a three-way contract: You, your spouse, and the government. The question is, what do you as a man lose and what do you gain and is it worth the trade off? It made a lot more sense when a man got a chef, a hostess, a maid, a slvt, and a mother out of it, because he's trading a slice of his freedom for it.

 

[phillies]

@phillies I don't disagree entirely with your point. There are women who refuse their husbands sex, there are lazy women out there who fail to keep their end of the bargain. I think those sorts of women are horrid. However your view is limited. Here are some things to consider

Marriage is not 100% divorce rate. It remains around 50% in the US. So approximately half of marriages do not fail. Some are good solid marriages. The key is to be a good man, be able to recognize a good woman and for the man to be a good leader in the marriage and the wife a devotee to her husband's endeavors (yes while sacrificing her own interests toward the husband's cause.)

It is true @Reyaj that many/most "quality" women seek marriage. This is how most traditional feminine women are raised. They get chosen early so the rest of the dating pool is leftovers or rejects to a degree. I do agree that some of these "good" women do end up back on the market after divorce, or even from being widowed. And the real quality women at any age are in enough demand that the women worth having as a "good" and "devoted" wife can find a man who will enter the marriage partnership if that is the aim. The trick is to pick the right woman if you are considering marriage.

You can have a life partner without marriage. I have friends like this who have been committed in a LTR for over 10 years. You must communicate your desire not to marry and find a woman who is agreeable to this. Also understand that without marriage end of life issues cannot automatically transfer to your GF. If you want a life partner outside marriage you need to specify legally and specifically how things will go in the event of your demise. While marriage has many legal liabilities in the view of the manosphere, there are legal benefits as well, especially as pertains to estate planning and parenting as some legally recognized examples where the law is supportive of the spousal status.

A good wife can absolutely add great value to her husband's life. The needs of a couple change over years together. Sex is more important during youth. Intimacy is built over time. Companionship and other non sexual values become far more important for elderly couples for example.



Not always true. A woman who marries makes her life harder in some ways, easier in others perhaps, but that is a matter of perspective.

My parents met in law school. Both have law degrees and both were working in the legal field when they married. My Dad wanted a full time wife and mother for his children. My mom honored his wishes and dropped her career (college educated, holding a law degree - not an inexpensive education) to be his wife and raise kids for the next 20 years. For 16 of those years she was out of the workforce at my father's request. My mother was capable of making 100K per year as an attorney or much more than that. Over her 16 years out of the workforce my mom gave up the ability to create 1.6 million in income that she could have made independent of my Dad. She also was out of the workforce during her peak income years (statistically speaking) and so missed these opportunities. Meanwhile she cared for the children (no day care or childcare costs incurred), entertained clients in the home, managed the bills, laundry, and household duties, and assisted my Dad at the office some once we all started in school. My mom is BPD nuts and eventually pushed my Dad away but all she got out of the divorce asset-wise was a house worth 195K. So one could make the argument that she actually got seriously financially shortchanged based on her giving up her income producing ability and prime income earning years in support of my father's career.

Many wives (good ones) do a great deal to support and encourage and facilitate the success of the husbands while giving up their own earning capacity and income potential to do so. That is the value I am talking about from a money perspective...never mind the value a stable home contributes to child rearing. There is a reason sites like SS advocate that you find a woman whose parents are still married. It is seen as an indicator of a stable upbringing and familiarity with more traditional male/female roles.



Marriage is about far more than sex upon demand. I can also tell you that having been the high earner and sole breadwinner in my own marriage for many years, the court will strip assets from the woman just as surely as the courts will strip assets from the man. The court seeks to divide assets with some equality, especially if there is a big income disparity between spouses. The high wage earner often gets stripped of some assets under the court's assertion that the high wage earner retains earning power, but that isn't always the man. Trust me I didn't like it any more than the guys on here but it is what it is.



Again you focus just on sex (very important I agree totally - however) You are skewed to a young man's view and do not see all the perspectives. Married people who are sick and have a spouse devoted to being their advocate and/or caregiver will tell you they are blessed to have someone to look after them and their care as they age or are infirm. Companionship is most important in the elderly years. My step mom of 30 years has been by my father's side as he has battled cancer, had strokes, dealt with all sorts of health issues; she is seeing about his needs at 78 years of age (despite her own cancer and health issues) and she continues to put my 80 year old Dad first and assist him as his life partner. She will be steadfast by his side until he dies. Then his estate will look after her (as will I and my siblings). As it should be. She has devoted her life to serve him as a great wife.

Marriage is about life partnership. In a partnership each partner brings value. Sex is but one piece of a much more complex puzzle for a marriage to last.

Also, I'm not going to read your entire posts if you're going to come on here and write books. You can communicate your points with less words, less fluff. I guarantee you most people read the first paragraph you write and then skip it.

If your mom was bdp nuts she was a sh1t wife that defrauded your father because no intelligent man would wife up a woman that nuts unless she hid her craziness. She didn't deserve any thing just because she pretended to be sane and quit her job and had kids. I guarantee you that it's far easier to be a stay at home mom than a lawyer, I doubt she wanted to stress of being a lawyer.

On top of that, if she was bdp crazy she wouldn't have been a very successful lawyer. She wouldn't have been able to handle the stress. That's why most successful lawyer's are men, because they are better wired for careers like that and handle the stress better.

With The amount if stress your crazy mother caused your father on top of the stress he had from work maybe your mother owes him. Also the time he wasted on her when he could've spent on a woman who didn't omit important information that would've effected the decisions he made. She also probably acted like everything he wanted in a woman at first and then reverted to her true craziness.

Lying by omission is just as bad as blatantly making up information. It's beyond me why women think lying by omission is not lying.

My mom was also a stay at home mom who home schooled four kids, up until certain grades and cooked four meals a day. I saw first hand the amount if passion, energy, effort and pain she went through. What she did was far more valuable to society, to her long term future and to me and my siblings than any career woman. The last woman I dated was a 45 yo, childless career woman and guess what? She's an unhappy loser. Sure she owns a house a Mercedes and whatever else but she's alone and only getting older. She should have spent her younger years learning to be a decent woman and finding a man that she likes.

Society encouraging women to go for a career is only a meme. that meme is one of the biggest betrayals of woman in modern society. But if they fall for it they deserve the result of falling for the liberal/ feminist meme.

Middle aged career women are the most unhappy demographic in the western world. But that's what they get. Instead of blaming men they should blame feminism.

Just remember the Apple doesn't fall far from the tree. So before you go blaming your ex husband maybe you should think about what you did or didn't do that could have caused your ex husband to become so depressed and mess up his business or whatever. If you were never in your ex husbands life do you think his result would've been the same? It's quite possible I think.

Men want a woman, not an equal or competitor.

 

[zekko]

Lets be honest here boys, if you aren't willing to marry her, you are communicating a very clear message, you aren't THAT into her. Marriage in America is a raw deal, american men should not marry in America with American rules on marriage.

I agree that marriage in America is a raw deal for men. But I don't think that avoiding marriage sends a negative message to a woman like "I'm not that into you". It's simply recognizing that it is a raw deal in the US. That isn't the woman's fault (necessarily). It's one thing to enter into an agreement with a woman, it's another to enter into an agreement with a woman and a government who will probably look after her interests at your expense if things don't work out.

 

[yuppee]

You can't bring a foreign woman here without marrying her, or at least, not for more than 90 days. I did not want to live in Phills, but I would have if I had to, to keep her. There's definitely some advantages to the place.

 

[BeExcellent]

My mom was also a stay at home mom who home schooled four kids, up until certain grades and cooked four meals a day. I saw first hand the amount if passion, energy, effort and pain she went through. What she did was far more valuable to society, to her long term future and to me and my siblings than any career woman.

Phillies, thanks for making my point. The courts assign that role a monetary value. That is what I am saying. Now there are certainly plenty of women who don't deserve that value because they don't fulfill the role you and I are talking about, but proving that in court is a tall order. It always has been.

As for all your assumptions about my own life they are wrong. My mom retired recently from the Attorney General's office, where she made her career after being married. So yes, the figures I gave are actually fairly accurate. They are for the sake of devil's advocate, mind you, but they are accurate. Not all BPDs are the hysterical type. Some are the ice queen type, extremely cold and calculating. This was my mom. She never dated at all after being married. Cold and calculating people can make excellent lawyers.

The apple didn't fall far - from my Dad's tree. I wrote my mom off out of my life years ago. Too much drama, too much toxicity. One day she seriously disrespected my then husband, so I cut contact. I have never regretted that decision.

My ex's business partnership was well along the failing process before we married. I had no idea because I didn't pry into his affairs. I dealt with it (and assisted him greatly) to deal with the failed partnership. The business was actually sold and is still going strong under different management.

I'm totally happy with my life. My ex is one of my closest friends and if I were to give him the opportunity he'd have me back today. Frankly I'd like him to go on some dates. He looks great and is becoming more responsible in his own life. I sometimes write at length to give thoughts to the topics posted by the OP. Other times I'm succinct. For now I have to run. I have a date with someone wonderful. Cheers!

 

[phillies]

Phillies, thanks for making my point. The courts assign that role a monetary value. That is what I am saying. Now there are certainly plenty of women who don't deserve that value because they don't fulfill the role you and I are talking about, but proving that in court is a tall order. It always has been.

As for all your assumptions about my own life they are wrong. My mom retired recently from the Attorney General's office, where she made her career after being married. So yes, the figures I gave are actually fairly accurate. They are for the sake of devil's advocate, mind you, but they are accurate. Not all BPDs are the hysterical type. Some are the ice queen type, extremely cold and calculating. This was my mom. She never dated at all after being married. Cold and calculating people can make excellent lawyers.

The apple didn't fall far - from my Dad's tree. I wrote my mom off out of my life years ago. Too much drama, too much toxicity. One day she seriously disrespected my then husband, so I cut contact. I have never regretted that decision.

My ex's business partnership was well along the failing process before we married. I had no idea because I didn't pry into his affairs. I dealt with it (and assisted him greatly) to deal with the failed partnership. The business was actually sold and is still going strong under different management.

I'm totally happy with my life. My ex is one of my closest friends and if I were to give him the opportunity he'd have me back today. Frankly I'd like him to go on some dates. He looks great and is becoming more responsible in his own life. I sometimes write at length to give thoughts to the topics posted by the OP. Other times I'm succinct. For now I have to run. I have a date with someone wonderful. Cheers!

99% of women don't homeschool and cook for their kids. A big part of the problem today is the give women the benefit of a doubt and men get the opposite. This is wrong and it's one of the ways our society is enabling women to be deceitful and manipulative, frankly it's the reason most women are trash in terms of anything serious.

So I didn't prove your point at all. Quite the opposite. Very few women deserve much if anything. Just because something is a law doesn't mean it's fair or moral. Society and law needs to be either much harder on women or much easier on men, this you can't argue against, any man who is not a brainwashed, castrated beta Will agree with me.

Furthermore marriage is an investment on both sides, yet 99% (or very close to it) of the time women benefit financially and men lose. They lose not only all the money they spent on building the relationship and on the woman, but they have to literally pay her. This is theft. Women shouldn't get married if they 1. Are going to decide to be sh1tty wives 2. They choose the wrong man.

You're delusional if you think divorce laws are fair. She's getting paid for her work she does domestically (which isn't much if she sends kids to school) by having a place to live, healthcare, food, clothes, vacations, a car, gas for the car. Alimony was put in place when women didn't have equal opportunities, but now women get jobs over men even if they're less qualified because of gender quotas. Women have way more privilege and options, which they probably need to keep up. Clearly they couldn't do it naturally.

Equality is about equal opportunity not equal results.

If you're any thing but against current divorce laws or gender quotas for employment, you're against equality.

How does it feel to know that, either covertly(which I already know you will deny) or he's doing it to himself but you are still playing a part, you are keeping him in the friend zone. He probably thinks about you all the time.

You're literally giving this man hope by doing rust you're doing. I'm sure it gives you validation, seeing as though you're nearly 50 and don't get much attention from men any more.

By being "best friends" you're giving him false hope. Even if you told him it'll never happen, he knows women change their minds. You're covertly stringing him along.

Now I shall enjoy reading your response while you deny you're doing any thing wrong and how you're not doing it for emotional support, validation and at his expense.

You're just an innocent, hard working, independynt womyn. If you're so happy with life being single than why do you spend so much time on a male internet dating forum INTERACTING with men every day, because it sounds you like that interaction (attention) with men everyday. Interaction with males is equal to attention from them. You attention wh0re.

 

[BeExcellent]

99% of women don't homeschool and cook for their kids. A big part of the problem today is the give women the benefit of a doubt and men get the opposite. This is wrong and it's one of the ways our society is enabling women to be deceitful and manipulative, frankly it's the reason most women are trash in terms of anything serious.

So I didn't prove your point at all. Quite the opposite. Very few women deserve much if anything. Just because something is a law doesn't mean it's fair or moral. Society and law needs to be either much harder on women or much easier on men, this you can't argue against, any man who is not a brainwashed, castrated beta Will agree with me.

Furthermore marriage is an investment on both sides, yet 99% (or very close to it) of the time women benefit financially and men lose. They lose not only all the money they spent on building the relationship and on the woman, but they have to literally pay her. This is theft. Women shouldn't get married if they 1. Are going to decide to be sh1tty wives 2. They choose the wrong man.

You're delusional if you think divorce laws are fair. She's getting paid for her work she does domestically (which isn't much if she sends kids to school) by having a place to live, healthcare, food, clothes, vacations, a car, gas for the car. Alimony was put in place when women didn't have equal opportunities, but now women get jobs over men even if they're less qualified because of gender quotas. Women have way more privilege and options, which they probably need to keep up. Clearly they couldn't do it naturally.

Equality is about equal opportunity not equal results.

If you're any thing but against current divorce laws or gender quotas for employment, you're against equality.

How does it feel to know that, either covertly(which I already know you will deny) or he's doing it to himself but you are still playing a part, you are keeping him in the friend zone. He probably thinks about you all the time.

You're literally giving this man hope by doing rust you're doing. I'm sure it gives you validation, seeing as though you're nearly 50 and don't get much attention from men any more.

By being "best friends" you're giving him false hope. Even if you told him it'll never happen, he knows women change their minds. You're covertly stringing him along.

Now I shall enjoy reading your response while you deny you're doing any thing wrong and how you're not doing it for emotional support, validation and at his expense.

You're just an innocent, hard working, independynt womyn. If you're so happy with life being single than why do you spend so much time on a male internet dating forum INTERACTING with men every day, because it sounds you like that interaction (attention) with men everyday. Interaction with males is equal to attention from them. You attention wh0re.

Why all the vitriol? I don't have a position about the current divorce laws other than that many of the standard issue custody arrangements are terrible for the kids...my Dad quit practicing family law after many years because he couldn't leave the nasty custody battles at the office.

I was the one with assets to lose in my divorce, so really I do understand that side of it better than the majority of women. It can be a raw deal. We agree about that.

Your projections & attacks & novellas are yours. Your assertions about me & my reality have 0 influence on my actual reality.

There's a thread about why I and some of the other few regular women are here. You can read it.

I and others do think there are some valid reasons for getting married.

You are welcome to ignore me. Please do. I'm a mom of a teen young man. It's useful to see what things are discussed here from a parental perspective. It does get a bit acrid sometimes from my perspective, but that's no big deal. It doesn't bug me. Sometimes people who have different views help one understand one's own belief system.

Plus I'm all for better men & personal development generally. That's what SS is about. It's a buffet, take what benefits you & ignore the rest.

 

[phillies]

Why all the vitriol? I don't have a position about the current divorce laws other than that many of the standard issue custody arrangements are terrible for the kids...my Dad quit practicing family law after many years because he couldn't leave the nasty custody battles at the office.

I was the one with assets to lose in my divorce, so really I do understand that side of it better than the majority of women. It can be a raw deal. We agree about that.

Your projections & attacks & novellas are yours. Your assertions about me & my reality have 0 influence on my actual reality.

There's a thread about why I and some of the other few regular women are here. You can read it.

I and others do think there are some valid reasons for getting married.

You are welcome to ignore me. Please do. I'm a mom of a teen young man. It's useful to see what things are discussed here from a parental perspective. It does get a bit acrid sometimes from my perspective, but that's no big deal. It doesn't bug me. Sometimes people who have different views help one understand one's own belief system.

Plus I'm all for better men & personal development generally. That's what SS is about. It's a buffet, take what benefits you & ignore the rest.

So basically you love coming here for male attention? Do you think you Have to resort to a forum like this for attention because, of your age, you don't receive as much in real life?

Do you ever feel bad knowing that being emotionally involved with your ex is holding him back from finding a woman younger and better suited for a relationship than you?

How jealous would you be if your ex found some one and stopped focusing on you?

 

[glass half full]

@phillies I don't disagree entirely with your point. There are women who refuse their husbands sex, there are lazy women out there who fail to keep their end of the bargain. I think those sorts of women are horrid. However your view is limited. Here are some things to consider

Marriage is not 100% divorce rate. It remains around 50% in the US. So approximately half of marriages do not fail. Some are good solid marriages. The key is to be a good man, be able to recognize a good woman and for the man to be a good leader in the marriage and the wife a devotee to her husband's endeavors (yes while sacrificing her own interests toward the husband's cause.)

It is true @Reyaj that many/most "quality" women seek marriage. This is how most traditional feminine women are raised. They get chosen early so the rest of the dating pool is leftovers or rejects to a degree. I do agree that some of these "good" women do end up back on the market after divorce, or even from being widowed. And the real quality women at any age are in enough demand that the women worth having as a "good" and "devoted" wife can find a man who will enter the marriage partnership if that is the aim. The trick is to pick the right woman if you are considering marriage.

You can have a life partner without marriage. I have friends like this who have been committed in a LTR for over 10 years. You must communicate your desire not to marry and find a woman who is agreeable to this. Also understand that without marriage end of life issues cannot automatically transfer to your GF. If you want a life partner outside marriage you need to specify legally and specifically how things will go in the event of your demise. While marriage has many legal liabilities in the view of the manosphere, there are legal benefits as well, especially as pertains to estate planning and parenting as some legally recognized examples where the law is supportive of the spousal status.

A good wife can absolutely add great value to her husband's life. The needs of a couple change over years together. Sex is more important during youth. Intimacy is built over time. Companionship and other non sexual values become far more important for elderly couples for example.



Not always true. A woman who marries makes her life harder in some ways, easier in others perhaps, but that is a matter of perspective.

My parents met in law school. Both have law degrees and both were working in the legal field when they married. My Dad wanted a full time wife and mother for his children. My mom honored his wishes and dropped her career (college educated, holding a law degree - not an inexpensive education) to be his wife and raise kids for the next 20 years. For 16 of those years she was out of the workforce at my father's request. My mother was capable of making 100K per year as an attorney or much more than that. Over her 16 years out of the workforce my mom gave up the ability to create 1.6 million in income that she could have made independent of my Dad. She also was out of the workforce during her peak income years (statistically speaking) and so missed these opportunities. Meanwhile she cared for the children (no day care or childcare costs incurred), entertained clients in the home, managed the bills, laundry, and household duties, and assisted my Dad at the office some once we all started in school. My mom is BPD nuts and eventually pushed my Dad away but all she got out of the divorce asset-wise was a house worth 195K. So one could make the argument that she actually got seriously financially shortchanged based on her giving up her income producing ability and prime income earning years in support of my father's career.

Many wives (good ones) do a great deal to support and encourage and facilitate the success of the husbands while giving up their own earning capacity and income potential to do so. That is the value I am talking about from a money perspective...never mind the value a stable home contributes to child rearing. There is a reason sites like SS advocate that you find a woman whose parents are still married. It is seen as an indicator of a stable upbringing and familiarity with more traditional male/female roles.



Marriage is about far more than sex upon demand. I can also tell you that having been the high earner and sole breadwinner in my own marriage for many years, the court will strip assets from the woman just as surely as the courts will strip assets from the man. The court seeks to divide assets with some equality, especially if there is a big income disparity between spouses. The high wage earner often gets stripped of some assets under the court's assertion that the high wage earner retains earning power, but that isn't always the man. Trust me I didn't like it any more than the guys on here but it is what it is.



Again you focus just on sex (very important I agree totally - however) You are skewed to a young man's view and do not see all the perspectives. Married people who are sick and have a spouse devoted to being their advocate and/or caregiver will tell you they are blessed to have someone to look after them and their care as they age or are infirm. Companionship is most important in the elderly years. My step mom of 30 years has been by my father's side as he has battled cancer, had strokes, dealt with all sorts of health issues; she is seeing about his needs at 78 years of age (despite her own cancer and health issues) and she continues to put my 80 year old Dad first and assist him as his life partner. She will be steadfast by his side until he dies. Then his estate will look after her (as will I and my siblings). As it should be. She has devoted her life to serve him as a great wife.

Marriage is about life partnership. In a partnership each partner brings value. Sex is but one piece of a much more complex puzzle for a marriage to last.

That's all and good, but look at their age...that's what their generation did. They respected each other. When the wedding vows were said, it was true (forsaking all others, etc.)
Let's face it, the next generation and all afterwards have different values. Totally different in some ways. How many couples give two sh!ts today about those vows? Not too many, that's why things are as they are.

 

[BeExcellent]

@phillies

If my ex were to find someone to date, that would be great! He can pull younger women & he will at some point & will have fun.

We have kids and the fact that we have a good relationship benefits them. While it's not the norm, not every relationship is polarized after divorce.

The current societal climate is troubling to be sure. Everything starts with raising young people who are self validated and self assured, but who are not spoiled, entitled or pampered.

Good men & good women do still exist. They tend to choose each other. Good marriages still exist as well. And the word is getting out to young men through various outlets including this one.

 

[phillies]

@phillies

If my ex were to find someone to date, that would be great! He can pull younger women & he will at some point & will have fun.

We have kids and the fact that we have a good relationship benefits them. While it's not the norm, not every relationship is polarized after divorce.

The current societal climate is troubling to be sure. Everything starts with raising young people who are self validated and self assured, but who are not spoiled, entitled or pampered.

Good men & good women do still exist. They tend to choose each other. Good marriages still exist as well. And the word is getting out to young men through various outlets including this one.

It's like you're implying that their is just as many good women as there are men. That's delusional thinking.

Also a lot of decent men get tricked into marriage by women who are garbage. Many men are naive because they're not taught at a young age how women really are. To attempt to teach men at a young age how women really are, on a large enough scale that'd make a difference, would be labeled misogynistic, but it'd certainly take a lot of power away from women, which would be good.

If women were held accountable as much as men are, women would have a very difficult time competing, but they'd certainly behave better.

Most women are garbage. Especially the higher her partner count n

 

[zekko]

[Everything starts with raising young people who are self validated and self assured, but who are not spoiled, entitled or pampered.

That must be a very fine line to walk. PUA Gurus try to turn out guys who are self validated and self assured, but they set up jerks and @ssholes as examples in order to do it. I've always thought that was a very lazy approach at best.

 

[SkrooU]

Marriage was designed to create order in society by pairing one man with one woman and having them procreate with just each other. This way there was less single mothers, and it provided more confidence in knowing who your biological father was. To encourage this, there are financial benefits granted to married couples as well as deterrants that prevent men from straying and dumping their family. Unfortunately, there was little thought put into laws that prevented women from exploiting the system because they weren't in much of a situation to do so long ago, and it wasn't anticipated that they ever would be. Society is slowly adapting to this change.

 

[Reyaj]

Marriage was designed to create order in society by pairing one man with one woman and having them procreate with just each other. This way there was less single mothers, and it provided more confidence in knowing who your biological father was. To encourage this, there are financial benefits granted to married couples as well as deterrants that prevent men from straying and dumping their family. Unfortunately, there was little thought put into laws that prevented women from exploiting the system because they weren't in much of a situation to do so long ago, and it wasn't anticipated that they ever would be. Society is slowly adapting to this change.

To play devil's advocate for just a moment... Let's say you were married to a woman and for whatever reason you no longer wanted to be with her. She was a house wife and relied on you for all the income. She is now on her own... She shouldn't have some kind of financial support until she gets her life in order?

 

[SkrooU]

To play devil's advocate for just a moment... Let's say you were married to a woman and for whatever reason you no longer wanted to be with her. She was a house wife and relied on you for all the income. She is now on her own... She shouldn't have some kind of financial support until she gets her life in order?

It depends on the circumstances. In the seemingly innocent scenario you present, then yes it's understandable to help her get on her feet. However, if I marry someone who refuses to work one month into our marriage, and after years of her being a slob and me trying to help her get a life going for herself by spending money on education programs she doesn't complete, let's say she convinces me to have a child, and then before or soon after birth, she takes the child and branch swings to another man hundreds of miles away who is sliding her money. Does it seem fair that I have to pay alimony to this worthless human being?

A bad case scenario, but it happens. My own sister has repeatedly screwed men over with this tactic. She has 7 kids from 5 different men. She has not worked for probably 13 years and has been married 4 times. When the husband can no longer provide enough for her, she starts saying what a jerk he suddenly is and then trades up to the next tool by getting pregnant and trapping him. Her latest ex husband even adopted another man's son. She left him because they were tight on money and he insisted she started working. She wanted to have another kid. He got a vasectomy. So what did she do? She cheated on him and got knocked up by her current husband who makes the same amount of money as her ex husband. But now she gets child support from multiple men and tells everybody on Facebook what a wonderful provider her new husband is. And she does whatever she can to spoil her exes' relationship with their kids.

Because of biology, women are in a good position to pull stunts like this. And some take advantage of it.
.

 

[CMNILS87]

To play devil's advocate for just a moment... Let's say you were married to a woman and for whatever reason you no longer wanted to be with her. She was a house wife and relied on you for all the income. She is now on her own... She shouldn't have some kind of financial support until she gets her life in order?

But on the basis of how long will it take to get her life in order? That could be years.... If they're married and she becomes a stay at home wife to raise the kids, think of all the money they save, but the man in solely providing, so all the weight is on his shoulders to make money. Now she's unhappy, she files no fault divorce. She moves out on her choice, now he still has to support her? Women back in the day that were house makers had to stay with their husbands because they couldn't make it on their own. Now it's like....wtf I can divorce, get half his stuff, kids, apartment, and he'll support me however long. If he doesn't the court will mandate it.

Now let's say it's reversed, a man was the stay at home child raiser and she divorces him. Will the courts be good to him too and give him money till he gets on his feet?

 

[SkrooU]

I'm not MGTOW. But a lot of men here are really naïve about women. Just as a warning. Keep up the game but cover your ass.