Hello Friend,

If this is your first visit to SoSuave, I would advise you to START HERE.

It will be the most efficient use of your time.

And you will learn everything you need to know to become a huge success with women.

Thank you for visiting and have a great day!

Reasons for Marriage

Asmodeus

Master Don Juan
Joined
Feb 1, 2016
Messages
690
Reaction score
582
Age
35
Location
Norfolk
Legend... You make two errors...
First, you assume that nature is best. This is called the naturalistic fallacy. You are attempting to prove a claim about ethics by appealing to a definition of the term "good" in terms of claims about natural properties. Bentham, Kant, and Moore have criticized this kind of thinking many times.
Secondly, not only do you commit the naturalistic fallacy but you are interpreting what you believe natural law is. Thus, you show that these concepts are open to interpretation and therefore they are subjective and based on perception.
 
Last edited:

Asmodeus

Master Don Juan
Joined
Feb 1, 2016
Messages
690
Reaction score
582
Age
35
Location
Norfolk
There is a conundrum for those who try to argue for universal truths. That conundrum is the inherent subjectivity of our experiences... You argue universal truths based on nature (as how you interpret it, which automatically makes it subjective). But here is the truth...
Even what is "real" can be argued with.
The sky is blue because of things that happen on molecular level...Becauase the atmosphere scatters short wavelength blue light more than than the other wavelengths. However, if one is colorblind they cannot see it and thus cannot perceive the blue. Thus, perception is more real than reality itself. Subjectivity therefore is the reality of our experience, if everything we experience is based off our perception how can there be something universal to everyone's experience?
 

l_e_g_e_n_d

Banned
Joined
Oct 13, 2015
Messages
522
Reaction score
369
Asmodeus said:
Subjectivity therefore is the reality of our experience, if everything we experience is based off our perception how can there be something universal to everyone's experience?
Is not the law of gravity (as we describe it) an objective, measurable, quantifiable, universal law that everybody experiences irrespective of subjectivity? What about oxygen to breathe or the Earth's rotation around the sun? Can an individual escape these laws based on perception? What happens to your subjectivity argument here?

Tenacity said:
I believe there's a higher power due to intelligent design
Pulled this quote from another thread. Reconcile how there is intelligent design without consciousness? Also, you didn't answer:

Tenacity said:
b) how do you reconcile Nature's lack of consciousness with Post 183?
 

samspade

Master Don Juan
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Messages
7,996
Reaction score
5,054
Is not the law of gravity (as we describe it) an objective, measurable, quantifiable, universal law that everybody experiences irrespective of subjectivity? What about oxygen to breathe or the Earth's rotation around the sun? Can an individual escape these laws based on perception? What happens to your subjectivity argument here?
Hmmm. You make a good point here. The laws of physics are considered universal.

However we only know about it through perceiving it. And everything we perceive we do with our own two eyes, ultimately. All events we witness have already happened in the past. When someone speaks to you, you're hearing him from fractions of a second ago. When you see the light of the sun, you're seeing it from 10 minutes ago. When you look at a star, you're looking tens of thousands of years ago. But/and we all will perceive things nobody else will perceive. Our collective perceptions have led us to conclude that there are certain laws of nature and physics within what we "know" is the universe. They were still interpreted, agreed on, and accepted by individuals, not handed down from God.

So, just as with the less scientific "laws of man" being discussed earlier in this thread, the hard laws of nature still must be heard and accepted by men. Of course, that doesn't mean the ignorant won't fall if they walk off a cliff. The law of gravity doesn't care how much you know.

Where this analogy (or whatever) falls apart is that lesser, man-made laws are not as ironclad. Choosing to walk off a cliff will result in death. Choosing to move to another country probably won't. In fact, it will open a whole new set of choices and challenges. Same with staying single vs. being married, having kids, whatever. There is no universal law that dictates happiness, or even morality so far as we can perceive. If you kill someone, you probably will be punished, but you might not. You might even be celebrated.

In other words: What matters most in any decision are your happiness, and whether you can accept the potential consequences. Every action is a choice, and with every choice comes a cost and a benefit. Only the individual can know for sure what's best for him.
 

l_e_g_e_n_d

Banned
Joined
Oct 13, 2015
Messages
522
Reaction score
369
Only the individual can know for sure what's best for him.
Here is the crux of your contention.

Does every individual know what’s best for him? Because if this is not the case for EVERY individual, then your contention cannot stand. Is rape best for the raper, murder for the murderer, suicide for the committer, or sodomy for the pedophile? Do these individuals really know those are the best actions for them at the time of committal? Is there not a thought process involved before committing an act; and is it not possible for that thought process to be misdirected or damaged? If damaged thinking provokes an act, is the committer really doing what’s in their best interest?
 

guru1000

Master Don Juan
Joined
Sep 20, 2007
Messages
5,384
Reaction score
4,400
Legend, you make several cogent arguments.

You state that our purpose in the carnal flesh form is to embrace challenges to evolve, which I agree with. You also go on to state that we should align our volition with that of Nature's. However, by altering our volition to that which is not ours, are we not defeating the purpose of our carnal existence--which is to embrace our own volitions, no matter how faulty, so that we can make the mistakes, to learn from, evolve, and thus alter our volition to be aligned with Nature's out of genuine desire, not contrived desire? After all, if our volition is contrived, then we never genuinely change out of authenticity. Does Nature truly desire us to be joined to it as slaves or joined to it out of genuine desire?
 
Last edited:

l_e_g_e_n_d

Banned
Joined
Oct 13, 2015
Messages
522
Reaction score
369
Yes, Guru1000, I agree. Nature does desire that we act on our own free will, as if it did not, why not simply join ALL of our will (including our free will) to that of our biology's (to eat, sleep, shvt, fuk) akin to animals, instead of making it free to make decisions that ultimately could go against nature. Thus, Nature's desire for our change toward it (embracing and overcoming challenge to learn & evolve toward Nature) can only be effected after going against it, and is to be founded of genuine origination, only after we have learned what is best for ourselves. Thereupon, Nature's will is egoless (which coincides with it being a "giving" energy) allowing us to go against it only to learn and return back to it once we are evolved enough to understand why we are returning.

If follows, then, that not only are we expected to embrace challenge, but we are also expected to make mistakes, as if our will is not aligned with Nature's initially, we need to make mistakes of our own volition, to understand that our choices were fruitless, and thus evolve with stronger lines of thinking/being, eventually aligning with Nature's superlative will out of genuine desire. This line further translates to other facets of life, wherein do we want others to honor/love us because we told them to (out of fear) or because they genuinely want to (out of love)? I know Machiavelli's thoughts on this. Any thoughts on this?
 
Last edited:

Reyaj

Master Don Juan
Joined
May 19, 2002
Messages
3,258
Reaction score
378
Age
46
Location
Northern CALI USA
So I was reading this thread until it got off on some tangent and then I scrolled to the end... Something about how someone moved to China or something and changed his circumstances.... whatever lol

Can we bring this back to the original topic... cause its very interesting and I need it to help make a decision on whether or not I should consider getting married. I hope Colossus comes back too and posts because whether you agree with him or not he is someone very intelligent who is married and can argue and give perspective for it.

Here are the basics of what I see regarding marriage and its from my point of view on what I've experienced and what I've read. And anyone who knows my posts know I try to write from my own experience in the world as much as possible and not necessarily what MGTOW or DJ bible says or whatever dogmatic references are pulled up (no disrespect to either as I'm sure there's gold in both just making a point that real life experience trumps all!!!!!)

So I agree having the government put you in a situation where you can lose half your assets doesn't make much logical sense. And yes times have changed where a woman doesn't necessarily need a man to support her... but from what I've experienced it has not changed enough where "most quality women still want to get married and have that as a goal..."

Thats the bottom line here... Women of quality who were raised with some kind of structure (religious or otherwise) want to get married. No its more than they want to get married... that is one of their goals... Most quality women in the United States (this is where I live and can speak to) want to get married.

Let me repeat this "most quality women want to get married"

Let me repeat "most quality women want to get married..."

Again?

"most quality women want to get married"

Now what is the first reaction after reading that.... "Who cares what a woman wants" "never be beta and succumb to a woman especially in a raw deal like marriage...."

I am sure some variant of that right?

The other question and probably more important is "What is the definition of a quality woman?"

Well I can only give you my definition. To me a quality woman has values.... she is trustworthy, she is loyal, she is family oriented (at least to a degree), she is not selfish and will do things for you, she is not a slvt, she is intelligent, she is respectful.... To name just a few of the traits off the top of my head.

Now most women that have those values were raised in a traditional family or as close to one as there are these days. So they have learned that marriage is a progressive step for them in life... added with some romantic stuff like a wedding blah blah blah blah

So am I saying I agree with this mentality? Not necessarily but we have to face the facts, it is what it is....

Now I am talking about a certain age range here... Let's say 24 - 40... after that age its easier to find a woman who won't want to marry though the trade off is her years of mental and possible physical baggage...

So I am just ranting at this point... but I think the bottom line is that I have found that most quality women want to get married... So what are your alternatives?? Move to China or some other country?? Continue to pump and dump POF milfs??

"A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be."
Albert Einstein
 

Scaramouche

Master Don Juan
Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Messages
3,753
Reaction score
928
Age
79
Location
Australia
Dear Desdinova,
Even more reasons for getting married...In my Country it matters not one Iota in division of Children and Assets whether you are in a live in relationship or are married...Jophil told us only a couple of years ago that in Queensland his home State,you could be dragged through the Family Law courts and mangled by a Lady,even if you were just a regular visitor...And grab this,In his home State there had been a Landmark decision in the Family Courts,that awarded substantial damages in favour of a Lady,against a Married Man,who visited twice a week...No Children involved.....Point being,if you are in a live in relationship,it is really no skin off your nose,maybe even gain a few brownie points into the bargain LOL.
My Doctor,with whom I am on friendly terms,recently confided that he had remarried...I was quite shocked,but he reasoned that he was so darned busy,hated domestics and couldn't cook for toffee,without live in help he leads a Dogs Life...This is a Seriously wealthy Man!!.... I looked him in the eye and told him,Every day,he could hire a Daily help, eat out in a fine Restaurant,visit the local Bordello or have a home call...still be Miles in front with limited vulnerability.
The mantras of Scarra 26B....Never let them get their feet under your Table!
 
Last edited:

BeTheChange

Master Don Juan
Joined
Jun 28, 2015
Messages
1,467
Reaction score
1,139
So what are your alternatives?? Move to China or some other country?? Continue to pump and dump POF milfs??
You were doing ok for a while and then you just went full strawman.

Gents, the idea that the only way to secure the long term loyalty of "quality" woman is to marry her is a complete fallacy. Improve thyself and you will not have this problem.

However, I will say that if you do need to be more aware of a woman's innate need for security if you go down the non marriage route. People often talk about trust and marriage as one, but I believe a woman needs to trust you much more if she is willing to have a long term relationship without the security of a cash prize divorce if things should go south.
 

phillies

Banned
Joined
Mar 10, 2013
Messages
281
Reaction score
85
Nothing personal LiveFree. I had to make a point and so opened this thread up using a few pawns for counter-positions. You are more of the idea I loathe; the idea of escaping "challenge."

I find that challenges are brought upon us with enlightened purpose (if you look broad and deep enough), and by embracing, as opposed to averting, these "challenges," you transcend.

Carry on.
You're most certainly very emotionally involved in your putting down of other people's choices or philosophies. If you're not here to make friends or be liked then what? I'd think you're here to toot your own horn or put people down to make yourself feel better. You care far to much about other people's choices and beliefs.
 

phillies

Banned
Joined
Mar 10, 2013
Messages
281
Reaction score
85
Because you are making a contract to do something for the other person that has real value. If a woman gives up her ability to go support herself and handle her affairs independently in her own life to serve as your wife that has value. It's her job to be your wife in essence.

Now obviously there are lots of examples where the woman doesn't hold up her end of the bargain. But at it's core this is what the contractual part of the marriage is about. That's why gf without paperwork is NOT the same thing.

I mean you could go to work without pay too, but why would you? Likewise why would a woman agree to stay home, not work, not earn and be self-sufficient on her own without some sort of contract? Why would she bear your children for you and raise them in such a case? I know people do it, but this is the value exchange I'm talking about.

I'm discussing the traditional type marriage here since the post is titled "Reasons for Marriage". There actually are some valid reasons. But I agree wholeheartedly that the success of the marriage has everything to do with you as well as who you pick to wed.

My Dad equates it to a business partnership. He says you want to be extremely cautious who you get into a partnership arrangement with and that you need an excellent partnership agreement, because if they go south, they can go south badly. Same for marriage as I think we are all aware.

I'm not sure I'd marry again frankly. I've had children so that is done, and I would need to keep some sort of an active role in my business affairs. I'd be fine at this point with a LTR with someone worth being involved with and nothing further. But if being married was important to him I'd seriously consider it for the right man. And I would strive to be like my friend in CA, to make his life better, support him, and be his right hand gal.
You make it sound like women are making a sacrifice in marriage when really they're not. Most women get married so they can make their life easier, even if they do work they make less money, contribute less into and get more out of the marriage.

It's a bad deal for men and will be until they make it difficult to get free money from the man. Also if a wife won't put out or is just a sh1tty wife the man should be able to divorce her without get getting much if any compensation.

Most women aren't good wives or they bait and switch. If a wife won't put out, what good is she? She's worthless and if she won't put out he should be able to divorce her without having to give her free money. It's insanity how well women are treated in divorce.
 

Reyaj

Master Don Juan
Joined
May 19, 2002
Messages
3,258
Reaction score
378
Age
46
Location
Northern CALI USA
You were doing ok for a while and then you just went full strawman.

Gents, the idea that the only way to secure the long term loyalty of "quality" woman is to marry her is a complete fallacy. Improve thyself and you will not have this problem.

However, I will say that if you do need to be more aware of a woman's innate need for security if you go down the non marriage route. People often talk about trust and marriage as one, but I believe a woman needs to trust you much more if she is willing to have a long term relationship without the security of a cash prize divorce if things should go south.
I'm not sure I grasp the strawman reference but I can tell by the context it's not a compliment lol

Listen for the record I am trying to make my decision on this so I'm not saying I'm firm on either position. I'm just stating what I observe in the real world.

But if you think most quality women aren't looking to get married you're delusional.
 

Reyaj

Master Don Juan
Joined
May 19, 2002
Messages
3,258
Reaction score
378
Age
46
Location
Northern CALI USA
You make it sound like women are making a sacrifice in marriage when really they're not. Most women get married so they can make their life easier, even if they do work they make less money, contribute less into and get more out of the marriage.

It's a bad deal for men and will be until they make it difficult to get free money from the man. Also if a wife won't put out or is just a sh1tty wife the man should be able to divorce her without get getting much if any compensation.

Most women aren't good wives or they bait and switch. If a wife won't put out, what good is she? She's worthless and if she won't put out he should be able to divorce her without having to give her free money. It's insanity how well women are treated in divorce.
I agree with a lot of this but I think being in a ltr for a long period of time like marriage probably will have waning sex...

My question remains though... if you are truly seeking a lifelong partner with a quality woman, what is the alternative to marriage? I think I went to 40 in my last example regarding a woman seeking this.. that may have been far fetched..

So let's say a quality woman who is between the ages of 25 and 35.... Most of these women have marriage as their goal. So again what are the alternatives if you want to see a lifelong quality partner?
 

BeExcellent

Master Don Juan
Joined
Dec 16, 2015
Messages
4,614
Reaction score
6,452
Age
55
@phillies I don't disagree entirely with your point. There are women who refuse their husbands sex, there are lazy women out there who fail to keep their end of the bargain. I think those sorts of women are horrid. However your view is limited. Here are some things to consider

Marriage is not 100% divorce rate. It remains around 50% in the US. So approximately half of marriages do not fail. Some are good solid marriages. The key is to be a good man, be able to recognize a good woman and for the man to be a good leader in the marriage and the wife a devotee to her husband's endeavors (yes while sacrificing her own interests toward the husband's cause.)

It is true @Reyaj that many/most "quality" women seek marriage. This is how most traditional feminine women are raised. They get chosen early so the rest of the dating pool is leftovers or rejects to a degree. I do agree that some of these "good" women do end up back on the market after divorce, or even from being widowed. And the real quality women at any age are in enough demand that the women worth having as a "good" and "devoted" wife can find a man who will enter the marriage partnership if that is the aim. The trick is to pick the right woman if you are considering marriage.

You can have a life partner without marriage. I have friends like this who have been committed in a LTR for over 10 years. You must communicate your desire not to marry and find a woman who is agreeable to this. Also understand that without marriage end of life issues cannot automatically transfer to your GF. If you want a life partner outside marriage you need to specify legally and specifically how things will go in the event of your demise. While marriage has many legal liabilities in the view of the manosphere, there are legal benefits as well, especially as pertains to estate planning and parenting as some legally recognized examples where the law is supportive of the spousal status.

A good wife can absolutely add great value to her husband's life. The needs of a couple change over years together. Sex is more important during youth. Intimacy is built over time. Companionship and other non sexual values become far more important for elderly couples for example.

You make it sound like women are making a sacrifice in marriage when really they're not. Most women get married so they can make their life easier, even if they do work they make less money, contribute less into and get more out of the marriage.
Not always true. A woman who marries makes her life harder in some ways, easier in others perhaps, but that is a matter of perspective.

My parents met in law school. Both have law degrees and both were working in the legal field when they married. My Dad wanted a full time wife and mother for his children. My mom honored his wishes and dropped her career (college educated, holding a law degree - not an inexpensive education) to be his wife and raise kids for the next 20 years. For 16 of those years she was out of the workforce at my father's request. My mother was capable of making 100K per year as an attorney or much more than that. Over her 16 years out of the workforce my mom gave up the ability to create 1.6 million in income that she could have made independent of my Dad. She also was out of the workforce during her peak income years (statistically speaking) and so missed these opportunities. Meanwhile she cared for the children (no day care or childcare costs incurred), entertained clients in the home, managed the bills, laundry, and household duties, and assisted my Dad at the office some once we all started in school. My mom is BPD nuts and eventually pushed my Dad away but all she got out of the divorce asset-wise was a house worth 195K. So one could make the argument that she actually got seriously financially shortchanged based on her giving up her income producing ability and prime income earning years in support of my father's career.

Many wives (good ones) do a great deal to support and encourage and facilitate the success of the husbands while giving up their own earning capacity and income potential to do so. That is the value I am talking about from a money perspective...never mind the value a stable home contributes to child rearing. There is a reason sites like SS advocate that you find a woman whose parents are still married. It is seen as an indicator of a stable upbringing and familiarity with more traditional male/female roles.

It's a bad deal for men and will be until they make it difficult to get free money from the man. Also if a wife won't put out or is just a sh1tty wife the man should be able to divorce her without get getting much if any compensation.
Marriage is about far more than sex upon demand. I can also tell you that having been the high earner and sole breadwinner in my own marriage for many years, the court will strip assets from the woman just as surely as the courts will strip assets from the man. The court seeks to divide assets with some equality, especially if there is a big income disparity between spouses. The high wage earner often gets stripped of some assets under the court's assertion that the high wage earner retains earning power, but that isn't always the man. Trust me I didn't like it any more than the guys on here but it is what it is.

If a wife won't put out, what good is she? She's worthless and if she won't put out he should be able to divorce her without having to give her free money.
Again you focus just on sex (very important I agree totally - however) You are skewed to a young man's view and do not see all the perspectives. Married people who are sick and have a spouse devoted to being their advocate and/or caregiver will tell you they are blessed to have someone to look after them and their care as they age or are infirm. Companionship is most important in the elderly years. My step mom of 30 years has been by my father's side as he has battled cancer, had strokes, dealt with all sorts of health issues; she is seeing about his needs at 78 years of age (despite her own cancer and health issues) and she continues to put my 80 year old Dad first and assist him as his life partner. She will be steadfast by his side until he dies. Then his estate will look after her (as will I and my siblings). As it should be. She has devoted her life to serve him as a great wife.

Marriage is about life partnership. In a partnership each partner brings value. Sex is but one piece of a much more complex puzzle for a marriage to last.
 
Last edited:

yuppee

Banned
Joined
Feb 25, 2016
Messages
300
Reaction score
53
Age
63
she'd be damned well free to find another guy if she WASNT married to me, eh? :) Divorce almost never happens overnight, and certainly not without plenty of signs that something's wrong (if your head aint up your butt, that is)
 

zekko

Master Don Juan
Joined
Aug 6, 2009
Messages
15,860
Reaction score
8,564
How does marraige keep a woman from slipping away?
As Beyoncé said "If you liked it, you shoulda put a ring on it". The idea is that women want marriage, and if you don't provide it, they will walk. As you and Desdinova are pointing out, thanks to no fault divorce (among other things), marriage doesn't guarantee anything. I say let her walk. If she leaves because you won't marry her, she's not devoted to you anyway, she's devoted to the idea of being married.
 
Top