Dating advice from a woman that actually works!

[zekko]

The attraction to a guy labeled a bad boy comes from the implied confidence that comes with it. It's associated with risk taking behavior and ambition

Confidence, risk taking, and ambition? Sounds more like an entrepreneur than a bad boy.

One trait I definitely do not associate with bad boys is ambition. More like lack of ambition. I picture bad boys as the sort of guys who are mainly interested in their immediate pleasure - not long range planning types.

Being nice requires no effort, no stepping out of your comfort zone, no risk and no challenge. This doesn't just apply to attracting women, it shapes your whole life.

You're describing a milquetoast wimp.

Certain jobs almost require you to be an a--hole to qualify (GC Foreman).

I have people under my authority, but I treat them with respect. If they don't perform adequately, I will call them on it, but I don't consider that being an @sshole - I consider it doing my job. In other words, being a responsible adult male.

Notice the word "boy" in "bad boy". Even that implies the guy is not a real man yet. He's a juvenile, he hasn't grown up. I am not one to believe women want boys when they can have a man. Nice guys, bad boys, blah blah blah. Where does the Real Man fall in this equation?

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

OK, lets run this down point by point then:

Women have baggage, too, especially the attractive ones.

Translation: "I'm fat. In fact at least 66% of my sisters are, or will become overweight too. My BMI is well above the norm and I don't have the motivation or self-discipline to trim down in order to compete with the physically superior women men are naturally more aroused by. So in order to compete in this realm I need to disqualify these competitors by advising men steer clear of them (and give us fat women a fighting chance) by perpetuating the "dumb/damaged hot girl" archetype."

Just because a woman is hot does not mean that her life is perfect

Perhaps, but if she's fat, you know she's less than perfect. Newsflash: Men aren't looking for perfect women. We're looking for hot women with a baseline of a workable personality.

Women prefer personality to looks.

Translation: "The ratio on which women place the importance of personality to looks is directly proportional to their depreciating ability to draw and maintain consistent male sexual attention. So make sure you focus on staying a nice, safe, sweet and dependable guy, making about six figures and be a little confident about it when you hit 35. When I can no longer hold the sexual interests of the douchebags, criminals and sociopaths who make me hot, it'll be your 'personality' that finally wins me over."

Women DO NOT like bad boys.

Translation: "Look, there are far more 'Plain Janes' and chubbies in the world than men would ever realistically settle for if they knew any better, and we can't allow men to think that Alpha Bad Boys are the only demographic hooking up with hot (i.e. desirable) women, so we're going to appeal to your silly notions of chivalry and tell you that even Mr. Nice Guy still has a chance with us. We innately crave being sexually dominated by an Alpha badass (even when he's incarcerated for murder), but that doesn't mean we don't also crave being able to 'tame the savage beast'. We need the Alpha to inseminate us, and we need the Beta cuckold to provide for us; it takes a constant effort to keep you unaware of this."

There's no "right" line, but there's a right way to say it.

Translation: "When it comes to communication, women care less about content, and more about context. It's not the information that's important, it's the way we 'feel' when you deliver it. But please, do go on believing that women are completely rational agents, perfectly capable of relying on deductive reasoning."

Women want to be approached, as long as it's by the right person.

Translation: "If you're cute/hot, you're the right person. If not, you're a sexual predator. Here's an outline of the right person."

Women want you to respect them, not admire them.

Translation: "So be sure you're respecting us, not admiring us when you're looking at the millions of our self-shots. Remember, were doing this to garner respect, not admiration."

 

[scrouds]

Lets take an old standby from the patriarchy handbook and we can put it to very good use here.

Women are to be seen and not heard. Pat her lovingly on the head and say "you can be so cute sometimes" and call it a day.


Seriously, pick up advice is best left to men.

 

[Stagger Lee]

Confidence, risk taking, and ambition? Sounds more like an entrepreneur than a bad boy.

One trait I definitely do not associate with bad boys is ambition. More like lack of ambition. I picture bad boys as the sort of guys who are mainly interested in their immediate pleasure - not long range planning types.


You're describing a milquetoast wimp.


I have people under my authority, but I treat them with respect. If they don't perform adequately, I will call them on it, but I don't consider that being an @sshole - I consider it doing my job. In other words, being a responsible adult male.

Notice the word "boy" in "bad boy". Even that implies the guy is not a real man yet. He's a juvenile, he hasn't grown up. I am not one to believe women want boys when they can have a man. Nice guys, bad boys, blah blah blah. Where does the Real Man fall in this equation?

You qouted Tazman, I think, but credited it to me. I didn't post any of that you quoted, he did.

I'm not a firm supporter of the bad boy theory as bad boy being defined as abusive or hurtful to women and that behavior being attractive to women. I've said that is it a matter of definition and perception. The bad boy is really just another name or subcatregory for player, an attractive guy who confidently goes for sex or whatever he wants. Women do not feel hurt or abused by an attractive man sexing up women for instance.

 

[Burroughs]

Lets take an old standby from the patriarchy handbook and we can put it to very good use here.

Women are to be seen and not heard. Pat her lovingly on the head and say "you can be so cute sometimes" and call it a day.


Seriously, pick up advice is best left to men.

well played sir! well played.

 

[zekko]

You qouted Tazman, I think, but credited it to me. I didn't post any of that you quoted, he did.

You're right, my mistake.

I have no respect for bad boys. I do not consider them a threat. I do not think they are deserving of the tongue bathing they get on forums like this. I do not see them as these mythological creatures with omnipotent powers over women. There is a type of woman who prefers them, but they are not any type of woman I would be interested in.

I have never lost a woman to a bad boy. I've lost a woman to the artist type and the cowboy type. At least those types offer something to society, unlike the bad boy, which offers nothing.

Rant over.

 

[Tazman]

I think you're taking the term too literally, what's important is the "essence" of the bad boy. Any guy, in any walk of life, whether he be a C.E.O., a drug dealer, a policeman, etc., could be deemed a bad boy. The term itself can be synonymous with other labels such as a--hole, jerk, etc. I'm not saying to be considered anything else is not masculine or attractive to women, but there is a common theme among these labels (confidence). That's the salient point.

 

[nismo-4]

The biggest point of this article could be summarized with my sig.

Women do like bad boys, and this article is proof positive that women want the opposite of what they say they want. Rollo hit the nail on the head with his post. Seriously, read his post and face reality. When you try to learn about what women want from other women, you'll learn everything and nothing.

Case closed. Read my sig.

 

[zekko]

I think you're taking the term too literally, what's important is the "essence" of the bad boy

I probably am taking the term too literally, although I don't think the pickup community takes the term literally enough. Bad boys do not impress me. At all. I see them as being the lowest form of male, not the highest.

there is a common theme among these labels (confidence). That's the salient point

If the salient point is confidence, why don't they say "confident male" instead of "bad boy"? Anyway, I'm betting most bad boys are more insecure than confident. The pickup community's worship of bad boys is completely overblown.

A guy should have a masculine edge to him. You don't need to be a jerk, @sshole, or bad boy to accomplish that. You think jerks have a monopoly on confidence? Yeesh, pick some better role models.

When I can no longer hold the sexual interests of the douchebags, criminals and sociopaths who make me hot, it'll be your 'personality' that finally wins me over.

Wow, somebody around here is dating the wrong women. That's why you qualify them.

When she says "Women prefer personality to looks", that is one of the main building blocks of the pickup community. You're assuming when she says "personality" she means "safe, sweet, and boring". Let go of your pickup-based preconceptions. Why can't a woman want a fun, masculine personality? If you disagree that women prefer personality, how can you maintain that they like the bad boy so much (which is personality-based)?

My take is that looks do matter to matter, but not as much as to men obviously.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Which do you believe is the more common scenario:

A woman leaving her her stable, loving, dependable, but uninspiring and predictable beta nice-guy boyfriend/husband for an exciting, but erratic Alpha bad boy she hopes will change for her,

or

A woman leaving her erratic, but exciting self-concerned, a-hole Alpha lover for a stable, supportive, loving and considerate beta whom she hopes will eventually become more exciting and Alpha?

You see, women don’t leave Alpha jerks for nice betas. Circumstances in her relationship with an Alpha may exceed her tolerance (or his) to remain in that relationship, but she never sees the beta as the option worth leaving an Alpha for. Women never willingly trade down. Enduring a jerk’s behavior is still preferable to enduring a beta’s adorations.

That’s not to say women don’t find themselves with betas after an LTR with an Alpha, they just didn’t opt for it.

Bonus questions:
After having been involved in an LTR with both a beta nice guy and an Alpha jerk, which one is a woman more likely to fantasize about later?


How many men actively seek out sexual relationships and correspond, unsolicited, with incarcerated female criminals notorious for violent murders?

 

[zekko]

I agree the woman would prefer the Alpha, but I reject the notion that Alpha = Bad Boy.

How many men actively seek out sexual relationships and correspond, unsolicited, with incarcerated female criminals notorious for violent murders?

Strangely enough, I actually knew a local guy who sought out a relationship with an incarcerated female. He was working as a guard and helped her escape. Dumb, dumb, dumb. I don't know what she was in for though. Just goes to show how desperate some guys are.

But yeah, it's much more common for a woman to get involved with an incarcerated male. Still, you're talking about a very small percentage of woman who do this sort of thing. I'd have to say they're messed up in the head. I have a hard time picturing my girlfriend doing something like that.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

I'd agree, Alpha isn't necessarily exclusive with Bad Boy, but it certainly doesn't equate with Nice Guy, which is what the article's author is proposing.

 

[samspade]

The "bad boy" label carries too much baggage on its own and is misconstrued. (Rollo, I think I saw a comment you posted at Roissy about this.)

I have a cousin who can't get his shyt together, has been arrested a few times, has drug/drinking problems, is a total gearhead, spends his cash at the bar and on his car, fights with his family, etc., etc. He's 35.

Nobody would ever use the term "bad boy" to describe him though. Lost and f'd up, maybe. He has zero game, none. (That might be part of his problem. Game can save souls, as we know.) "Bad boy" connotes sexual prowess as much as insubordination.

Retrofit this guy with an alpha mindset, and he might still be getting into trouble, but he'd also be attracting women. Any idiot can get arrested an mess up his life; it has little bearing on his mindset when dealing with females.

"Alpha" covers many strata, Bad Boy being one subset. And "Bad boy" is usually a term of endearment even if it connotes a certain lawlessness. "He's a total bad boy," spoken from one woman to another, is a ringing endorsement disguised as a warning.

 

[Stagger Lee]

Double post

 

[Stagger Lee]

The problem with all these terms alpha, bad boy or nice guy, AFC lies in the definition. Or really in describing the characteristic of the two types.

An "alpha" or "bad boy" is really just a guy that attracts a lot of women and a "beta"/AFC is a guy who does not. It's the PUA community who tries to attribute the reasons why and goes to the exteme and oftentimes gets it wrong.

I think I was on to something when I said a bad boy, instead of the abusive, a-hole that is often imagined, is really just a guy who is almost the opposite of a nice guy. We know what a nice guy does supplicate, compliments, devotes himself, tries not to offend women, act more effiminate than masculine.

We know why the nice guy does these things. Because he thinks that's what women want and is what society and women tell guys women want (and logically it would make sense that is what females would want).

But why do women not respond to these nice behaviors? It's mostly due to the women being validated, not having to feel competition anxiety, not wanting or valueing what they can easily get etc.

But what the alpha/bad boy is not is this bad ass, tough guy that is borderline abusive that the PUA community seems to portray.

Personally I think too much is made of personality and behavior by both the PUA community and by women. I believe appearance makes all the difference. Unattractive guy tries to act the same way as the alpha/badboy=females think creepy, a-hole, jerk. Attractive guy acts like alpha/bad boy=females think I want to fvck this hot guy.

 

[scrouds]

bad boys are just poor alphas. Rich alphas are called playboys.

Not sure we have a middle of the road term, but an unqualified natural alpha is more likely to achieve more or sink down into the bad boy life. The alpha doesn't usually chill out in the herd.

 

[Nutz]

From the article:

There is never a bad time to approach a woman. Women want to be approached, as long as it's by the right person.

Reminds me of the Tom Brady sexual harassment SNL skit.

Women DO NOT like bad boys. Not sure who started this rumor, but they must be shot immediately. Women do not sit around with their girlfriends and say "Oh, Marni, I can't wait to meet a lazy, unreliable jerk who treats me poorly and feeds on my insecurities." Women like nice guys, not wimps, pushovers or pleasers; nice guys with a backbone and strong sense of self.

Women don't like bad boys? Oh really? I'll just leave this here:

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2011/07/25/chicks-dig-jerks-the-veil-of-self-deception/

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2011/03/23/chicks-dig-jerks-science-edition/

 

[zekko]

The "bad boy" label carries too much baggage on its own and is misconstrued.

That's a big problem I have with it.
Over on the General Forum, there are a lot of young guys who firmly believe that you have to act like a d!ck to get a woman (hell, it seems half the Mature Man forum thinks this too).
It seems like the more trouble a guy has had with women, and the more bitter he is toward them, the more likely he is to buy into this.

I have a cousin who can't get his shyt together, has been arrested a few times, has drug/drinking problems, is a total gearhead, spends his cash at the bar and on his car, fights with his family, etc., etc. He's 35.

Nobody would ever use the term "bad boy" to describe him though.

See, this is exactly what I would consider a bad boy.
What the community does is take this guy, and then adds "..who is good with women" on the end of it. But that just demonstrates that it ISN'T the bad behavior that is attracting the women, doesn't it?

I saw a guy on the reality show Bar Rescue recently. A big fat biker dude with a leather jacket, tattoos, and a ZZ Top beard. He was saying "I'm either getting laid tonight or there's going to be a fight". Sounds like a bad boy to me. Chick magnet, though? No.
I'm not saying that guy won't get laid, but I have to think I have a better shot at it than he does.

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2011/...ience-edition/

The Roissy blog is a huge proponent of jerk game, so this doesn't surprise me. But if you want to see an example of bad science, this is it.

This guy assumes that because criminals have just as many kids as non-criminals, this is because the criminals have superior sex appeal. I'd be more inclined to think that it's probably because of their reckless and irresponsible lifestyle. They probably forgot to use a condom. As I said in an earlier post, bad boys are more concerned with their immediate pleasure.

He says:
"Girls find a way to sniff out ex-cons — or even current cons — and get impregnated by them."

Really? Really? I know a lot of women, and damn few of them are dating, screwing, or sniffing around for convicts or ex-convicts. The ones that do have convict boyfriends are fat, unattractive, and undesireable. Repeat: Fat, unnattractive, and undesireable. I get the impression the guys are using these girls for a place to flop in between stretches in prison.

Whoever is writing this, I get the impression they're spending waaaay too much time in lowlife dive bars. They really need to get out and spend some time around a better class of women. But like attracts like, I suppose.

 

[Rollo Tomassi]

Whoever is writing this, I get the impression they're spending waaaay too much time in lowlife dive bars. They really need to get out and spend some time around a better class of women. But like attracts like, I suppose.

8. False Premises Hate

Hater: Yeah, sure, game works well for picking up low self-esteem bar skanks.

A great deal of hate is fueled by false premises. Concocting convenient scenarios, imagining the worst of your enemies, and reinterpreting their successes are a salve for the burned ego. Newsflash: your thin-skinned indignation is not their moral crisis.

Shooting the arrow and painting the target around it gives you a bullseye every time.


What I think throws a lot of this discussion into polarized, binary accounts is the use of the work “jerk”. If I made a case for women preferring the sexual attentions of self-concerned, ****y-but-confident Alpha males who carry themselves with an air of status and respectability with just enough social proof to back up the idea that they’d be the type of guy an overwhelming majority of women would compete amongst themselves for, well, the debate would at least start from a more neutral territory.

When we call these guys *******s or jerks the connotation is presumed negative, and any woman agreeing to enjoying the company of *******s is immediately cast in the role of “low self-esteem” or lacking self-respect, etc. It’s like accusing someone of rolling in shít and expecting them to admit to loving it. So the natural defense is for women (and beta sympathizers) to claim the opposite and use isolated anecdotal experiences to reinforce a more positive perception.

It’s far easier to poison the well by accusing women admitting to loving the Bad Boy by calling her self-worth into question than to actually examine statistics and observable predictable, behaviors. The biological truth of the matter is women bear far too much long term risk in potential breeding and parental investments to ever be objectively honest with themselves about what is actually motivating their sexual selections. It is not in the best interests of the feminine imperative that men even be given the inclination of being made aware of how this selection process operates. In fact, this deception is of such primary importance to the feminine breeding methodology that the female psyche evolved its own self-deceptive psychological schemas to preserve the female ego while enacting it.

Most women are literally oblivious to the underlying motivations of their sexual selections / attractions. Evolution has largely selected for human females with a capacity to form psychological schemas that preserve an ego-investment that would otherwise afflict them with debilitating anxiety, guilt, and the stresses that result from being continuously, consciously aware of their own behavioral incongruities. Evolution selects for solipsistic women who are blissfully unaware of their solipsism.

 

[zekko]

Hater: Yeah, sure, game works well for picking up low self-esteem bar skanks.

A great deal of hate is fueled by false premises..

Come on Rollo, I'm not the one writing articles about how girls will sniff out a convict so they can get impregnated by him. If this is typical of the women in this guy's life, I would say something is wrong, wouldn't you?

What I think throws a lot of this discussion into polarized, binary accounts is the use of the work “jerk”. If I made a case for women preferring the sexual attentions of self-concerned, ****y-but-confident Alpha males who carry themselves with an air of status and respectability with just enough social proof to back up the idea that they’d be the type of guy an overwhelming majority of women would compete amongst themselves for, well, the debate would at least start from a more neutral territory.

Yes, that's well said. In fact, this is much closer to the approach that RSD takes. They don't teach "Be a jerk", "Be an @sshole", "Be a bad boy". They teach be a fun, social, confident, masculine guy who takes what he wants. They take a higher road.

When we call these guys *******s or jerks the connotation is presumed negative, and any woman agreeing to enjoying the company of *******s is immediately cast in the role of “low self-esteem” or lacking self-respect, etc.

I agree the connotation is negative. I don't like the impression that so many young guys are getting over on the general forum. There are so many of them over there that think that if you are not a jerk or an @sshole, you will never get laid. It's sad because it simply isn't true.

Honestly, if a girl is attracted to a real @sshole, yes, I am going to be suspicious of her character, and self esteem. A girl raised with no values is more likely to be attracted to a guy with no values, just like her daddy. It's all she knows. It's a red flag.

Jophil (may God rest his soul) used to say that you should use C&F like salt and pepper, not as the whole meal.
If I make some sort of C&F remark to some girl, she will often giggle and call me a jerk, because we both know it's a joke. That's the funny part of it. The idea is not for me to REALLY be a jerk. It's just that girls enjoy the teasing, and the brashness. They want to be shown that you're not putting her on a pedestal.