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Legit Question About Red Pill And Islam

samspade

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This is a legitimate question for you guys and no, I'm not trolling. This also isn't about politics per se, but male-female relations and Islam. I'm hoping this thread doesn't degenerate to petty racial/religious bickering. Lol.

So here goes. I read a lot of talk in the manosphere about two seemingly separate issues:

1) That Western society is in decay. Feminism has ruined the culture, "equalism" has led to rampant degeneracy, women are poisoned with the idea that they should be strong, independent, sexually liberated and even promiscuous, and bytchy. Men are often told to be the opposite or to submit to women. We all know the details...lots of angry slvts and betas and the breakdown of the family.

2) That Islam is the religion of (at least) an invading people, that our lax borders and political correctness have allowed Muslims to pollute Western countries, that it's not a religion of peace but war, that Muslim people are a$$-backwards and have no place here.

Now, I agree a lot with #1 and some of #2. There's a lot of backwardness in Islamic countries, real medieval stuff that makes no sense to me. And certainly the West is a dung pile.

The question is: Isn't Islam (let's say, a "liberal" version of it) fairly in line with a lot of red pill values?

When I see or hear about non-fanatical, non-jihadist Muslims, I see God-fearing people who put family first, and put the man at the top of the family without exception. I see modest and respectful women, and hard-working young men who maintain a steadfast faith (so far as I can tell) that requires daily prayer and even requires them to tithe a percentage of their earnings to charity. I see tight-knit communities, here in NYC at least, suspicious of outsiders but probably honor-bound to welcome a stranger in need no matter what. In more conservative Muslim countries, women stay at home, raise children, cook, often don't vote or even drive. Men must win bread for their families, and women must care for them. There are no slvt-walks, no half-naked selfies, no tattoos, no girls nights out.

Sound familiar?

It sounds a lot like the red pill utopia men here and elsewhere are often pining for. Sure, it's not 1950s America™, but it's a foreign version of some patriarchal ideal everyone wishes we could return to, if only we could turn back the clock.

So why are Muslims often reviled by red pill men? I don't mean the rapists and scoundrels. Show me a million people in any culture and I'll find you 50,000 animals that need to be locked up.

Or, to put it another way, if Islam did come to dominate America and the West, would we be better or worse off than we are today? Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
 

speed dawg

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Christianity is actually very red-pill. You just have to look to the truth - the Bible. Not weak Western Baptist preachers who ask permission from their wife for everything. It's all the good of islam without all the terrible animalistic crap.

Sexual immorality is going to be an issue with any religion.
 

pierce_r

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I see God-fearing people who put family first, and put the man at the top of the family without exception. I see modest and respectful women, and hard-working young men who maintain a steadfast faith (so far as I can tell) that requires daily prayer and even requires them to tithe a percentage of their earnings to charity. I see tight-knit communities, here in NYC at least, suspicious of outsiders but probably honor-bound to welcome a stranger in need no matter what. In more conservative Muslim countries, women stay at home, raise children, cook, often don't vote or even drive. Men must win bread for their families, and women must care for them. There are no slvt-walks, no half-naked selfies, no tattoos, no girls nights out.

Sound familiar?
Sounds horrific.

Look, if you haven't got the grapes to handle a woman being as sexual as a man, you're going to spend a lot of time unhappily waxing your own tadpole. The world has moved on and left the religious good-girl image in the dust. It's no longer relevant to the world you live in. It's like these ridiculous posts on here about men waiting to find a virgin. It's insane.

You can pretend that the grass is greener somewhere else, or you can accept the existence of sl*t-walks, and sexting, and road head, and girls' nights out that turn into drunken threesomes and sex in bar bathrooms, and girls in their 20's who've been watching porn since they were ten and likely know more about sex than you do, and get out there RIGHT F*N NOW and dive headfirst into all of it like Scrooge McDuck into his vault of money. There hasn't been an easier generation to lay since the mid-70's. This is a g*dd*mn sexual revolution, a world of blithering wanna-be porn stars out there getting drunk every night. You are insane if you think this is somehow detrimental.

And if you're X-Gen, 40-50 right now, and you grew up in a world that promised you Madonnas and Lita Fords and that chick who crawled across the floor in that Billy Idol video -- girls with torn fishnets and experimental hair who swallowed on the first date and drove themselves home -- only to graduate college into a world of AIDS scares and rape whistles and L7 fans with logging boots and hairy p*ssies, and found yourself sitting in workplace sensitivity training wondering what the hell happened, you got f*cking robbed. This is your chance to get what you were promised. It's out there right now.

Right. F'n. Now.

The only thing it does is give women experience with d*cks, which makes insecure men freak out, many of them screeching about how the world is going to end because girls come out of high school able to suppress their gag reflex. This sexual awakening is making life spectacular.

If the fact that she's handled a d*ck before is threatening to you, seek psychiatric help. Don't ruin it for the rest of us. This is an amazing time to be a man.
 

Who Dares Win

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The problem with islam is that its not just a conservative religion that makes a society conservative.

The problem is that those coming from muslim countries bring here the same culture they have in their societies, let me explain better, polish and spanish people are both catholics yet there are HUGE differences the way they live, think and behave.

Also in terms of islam, personally I dont want to do senseless stuff like praying or fasting weeks, skipping alchool and pork for no other apparent reason than being told to do so.

Also the problem is not islam itself but the fact that its africans and middle eastern to follow it, and no need for me to tell you that despite all the bull**** told from our politicians, those groups of people are not exactly "enriching Europe" unless crime rate and extra taxes count as enrichment.

Anyway given the choice between them and the current marxist feminist Europe, I pick those savages everyday, I feel more comfortable being under threath while allowed to defend rather than being enslaved or on the run with no chance to fight back.

If there was a moderate islam for europeans with no "real muslims" from the third world involved, it could be a good option, more like a cultural islam than a religion one.

I have no problem to say that Im against mass migration of people clearly not compatible with us.
 

samspade

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Sounds horrific.

Look, if you haven't got the grapes to handle a woman being as sexual as a man, you're going to spend a lot of time unhappily waxing your own tadpole. The world has moved on and left the religious good-girl image in the dust. It's no longer relevant to the world you live in. It's like these ridiculous posts on here about men waiting to find a virgin. It's insane.

You can pretend that the grass is greener somewhere else, or you can accept the existence of sl*t-walks, and sexting, and road head, and girls' nights out that turn into drunken threesomes and sex in bar bathrooms, and girls in their 20's who've been watching porn since they were ten and likely know more about sex than you do, and get out there RIGHT F*N NOW and dive headfirst into all of it like Scrooge McDuck into his vault of money. There hasn't been an easier generation to lay since the mid-70's. This is a g*dd*mn sexual revolution, a world of blithering wanna-be porn stars out there getting drunk every night. You are insane if you think this is somehow detrimental.

And if you're X-Gen, 40-50 right now, and you grew up in a world that promised you Madonnas and Lita Fords and that chick who crawled across the floor in that Billy Idol video -- girls with torn fishnets and experimental hair who swallowed on the first date and drove themselves home -- only to graduate college into a world of AIDS scares and rape whistles and L7 fans with logging boots and hairy p*ssies, and found yourself sitting in workplace sensitivity training wondering what the hell happened, you got f*cking robbed. This is your chance to get what you were promised. It's out there right now.

Right. F'n. Now.

The only thing it does is give women experience with d*cks, which makes insecure men freak out, many of them screeching about how the world is going to end because girls come out of high school able to suppress their gag reflex. This sexual awakening is making life spectacular.

If the fact that she's handled a d*ck before is threatening to you, seek psychiatric help. Don't ruin it for the rest of us. This is an amazing time to be a man.
I agree with you for the most part. I didn't mean to say I'm the one pining for a more conservative time. But I see it all the time on red pill sites, while at the same time many of the same writers (Roosh e.g.) rip on Islam. It sounds like cognitive dissonance. A lot of red pill men want women to be virginal, but without the societal obligations that go with it on the man's part.

So my question isn't which type of society is better, it's why is there an inconsistency in what RP men want.
 

pierce_r

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it's why is there an inconsistency in what RP men want.
Because most men are weak-willed, unrealistic, entitled crybabies. Who gives a f*ck what they want?

I don't. I have accepted what's out there and am having a wonderful time.

If someone wants to spend his life watching the world go by and waiting for the tables to turn in his favor, he's a moron. Life is short. Sex life is even shorter.

The world is not going to change for you. Accept the world on its own terms. Adapt. Overcome. Grab the world by the hair, flip it over, and smack its *ss it a few times for good measure. You'll find the world likes it and will come back for more.

BTW, Roosh who?
 

pierce_r

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Afterthoughts.

Here's the disconnect with that bullsh*t 50's / Islamic "utopia."

In such a world, women NEED men.

In our world, women don't need you. Women have to WANT you.

That means you have to put the work in, and make yourself into someone worth chasing, and that's really hard. F*ckin' waaaah.

You need to improve yourself, ever day, every moment, until you are someone that women chase. There is no other answer than that. And wishing on the world to revert to a point where every doughy sad sack has a honey at home to cook and clean and suck his c*ck because she's helpless without him? That's retarded. It's misogynistic, weak-willed p*ssy bullsh*t. Watching the world go by hoping it changes in your favor so that you'll finally have your shot? Uber-weak-willed p*ssy bullsh*t.

Women don't need us, and we will never again live in a world where they do. So you'd damned well better get on the stick and start improving yourself until they want you. You'll know when they want you, because they'll approach you. They'll start conversations. They will find ways to put themselves in your crosshairs.

I'll tell you from experience, it takes years to get to this point, but anyone can do it. Get on it.
 
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Bible_Belt

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http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

Everyone should read that article. It explains a lot more about ISIS than you'll hear on the news. The article also makes the uncomfortable point that ISIS are the Muslims who are following the Koran the closest. They view all other Muslims as heretics. ISIS is doing exactly what Mohammed told them to do, word for word, establish a Caliphate, tax the Christians, and kill anyone who gets in your way.

My ex-wife married a guy from North Africa and converted to Islam to marry him. They are the peaceful, non-terrorist, types. I asked her about ISIS following the Koran word for word, and she doesn't have much of an answer. Consensus wisdom of the modern day Islamic community is literally to ignore parts of their own holy book. They have to if they want peace.

The biggest thing I could ever impress upon Christians about Muslims, is that they believe in Jesus. Fox News is never going to mention that little bit of info. It is Muslim doctrine that Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed were all prophets of God...the same God. The link above explains that ISIS believes that Jesus is coming back to Earth to lead them to victory. That's a truth that is stranger than fiction.
 

pierce_r

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"A misogynist is a person who hates or doesn't trust women."

What did I miss? This forum is full of them.

If you pine away for the days when they were chained to the stove as baby-making machines -- if you think this whole 50's ideal has some merit -- you're a misogynist. If you don't think that women deserve the same freedoms -- including sexual freedoms -- that you do, you're a misogynist.

Just because you like f*cking them doesn't mean you like them.
 

pierce_r

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SJW?
 

G_Govan

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SJW = Social Justice Warrior

This is all transitory. This whole gender war we're going through.

The way we live today is only made possible by modern tech/science. Unless there's some major innovations created in space travel this will all come to an end, if not sooner just based on how competitive we are toward each other as human beings.
 

speed dawg

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Afterthoughts.

Here's the disconnect with that bullsh*t 50's / Islamic "utopia."

In such a world, women NEED men.

In our world, women don't need you. Women have to WANT you.

That means you have to put the work in, and make yourself into someone worth chasing, and that's really hard. F*ckin' waaaah.

You need to improve yourself, ever day, every moment, until you are someone that women chase. There is no other answer than that. And wishing on the world to revert to a point where every doughy sad sack has a honey at home to cook and clean and suck his c*ck because she's helpless without him? That's retarded. It's misogynistic, weak-willed p*ssy bullsh*t. Watching the world go by hoping it changes in your favor so that you'll finally have your shot? Uber-weak-willed p*ssy bullsh*t.

Women don't need us, and we will never again live in a world where they do. So you'd damned well better get on the stick and start improving yourself until they want you. You'll know when they want you, because they'll approach you. They'll start conversations. They will find ways to put themselves in your crosshairs.

I'll tell you from experience, it takes years to get to this point, but anyone can do it. Get on it.
Your method has bred the weak men we have today.

Your method results in the break down of society.....the society that gave you the freedom to come up with your self-centered opinion.

When the rubber hits the road, and it's time to survive, your kind will be the first to die off. I personally hope we don't have to get to that point before we 'get' it.

Nothing about the way it was, was a 'utopia'. Life was harder back then. It's more of a cushy utopia right now.

You have much to learn.
 

samspade

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Afterthoughts.

Here's the disconnect with that bullsh*t 50's / Islamic "utopia."

In such a world, women NEED men.

In our world, women don't need you. Women have to WANT you.

That means you have to put the work in, and make yourself into someone worth chasing, and that's really hard. F*ckin' waaaah.
Right. This is all true.

However, ask yourself why women don't "need" men?

Because of men. We created this world. Drop a woman in the middle of the jungle and see how long she lasts without needing a man. Meanwhile a man needs a woman for one thing: procreation.

So, while you're saying this is the way the world is, and you're right - it is what it is - the greater point is it's not a world that makes a lot of sense for many red pill men. It works well for easy notches, but does it work well if you want a doting wife and mother? What you're celebrating (easy sex) is, in the long term, seen as detrimental to mankind. Or in the shorter term, your plans to have a family - unless you want the mother of your kids to be a cvm dumpster. In Saudi Arabia, how many women are cvm dumpsters? That's what i'm getting at here.

I suppose Islam isn't the only example. There are probably tribes in Papua New Guinea or the Pacific Rim where masculinity and femininity have their virtues and are considered complimentary. Islam was just an example because it's so widely criticized.
 

pierce_r

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Your method has bred the weak men we have today.

Your method results in the break down of society.....the society that gave you the freedom to come up with your self-centered opinion.

When the rubber hits the road, and it's time to survive, your kind will be the first to die off. I personally hope we don't have to get to that point before we 'get' it.

Nothing about the way it was, was a 'utopia'. Life was harder back then. It's more of a cushy utopia right now.

You have much to learn.
My method -- improving yourself until women find you desirable -- has led to the weak men we have today? Self-improvement is leading to the breakdown of society?

And your method -- wishing uselessly that we'll magically go back to a point in time where women needed men for survival, so that we didn't have to work as hard to make women want us -- is somehow harder? Scratching my head, here. Enlighten me.

I'm fairly sure you have it backwards. And I'm absolutely sure your mindset is the problem with men today.

Incidentally, I intend to be the last to die off. Back-to-back tours in Iraq in the Marines, 2003-2005; six years as a team sergeant in the Army Reserve; and l got both my direct commission and my jump wings at age 41. Safe money says I've proven way harder to kill than you, sport. I've certainly had more people try. Hell, they're still trying; my boss orders me to jump out of a perfectly good aircraft on a regular basis, and it's my job to go first.

As a Company Commander and a prior-service Marine, I can tell you that this upcoming generation categorically sucks, and your misty-eyed recollections of some golden yesteryear you never actually saw for yourself are symptomatic of the entire problem. You p*ssies need to slam your beer, adjust your nuts, and make something out of yourselves, because the very existence of this forum is proof that the quality women of the world are passing most of you by.
 

sharkbeat

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So are Catholics and Christians. Look up pictures of Afghanistan and Iran in the 1970s. They look like they could be pictures taken in the US. They looked normal!

Islam fanaticism is violent. Christian fanaticism is annoying. Any religious fanaticism, regardless, is toxic.

If you meet religious people who have common sense, you'd see that they support traditional gender roles. Men aren't evil as portrayed by feminists, and women should bear and raise children, and they are not hostile toward the gays.
 

taiyuu_otoko

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The question is: Isn't Islam (let's say, a "liberal" version of it) fairly in line with a lot of red pill values?
Perhaps a very narrow version of moderate Islamic families within an otherwise Christian society. But you can't pick and choose which part of Islam you like. There's a lot in Sharia law (that tends to come along with large Islamic populations) that is contradictory to a western way of life.

You're better off following the advice of pierce_r and work on yourself so A WOMAN (not women) choose to "be" the WOMAN you want to be BECAUSE of your "high value" as perceived by HER.

Expecting a religion to do the work for you isn't the best strategy, unless you REALLY LIKE said religion.

EXAMPLE

My brother, while in college, fell in love with a Mormon girl. Asked her to marry him. She said she'd only do it if he converted. He studied the religion and broke it off with her.

As for some of the other points, I don't believe Western Society is falling apart BECAUSE of feminism. I believe feminism is just one SYMPTOM out of many.

In fact, I believe our society is in decline due to deep structural issues found in ALL SOCIETIES.

Certain people want power. They justify their power by "taking care" of people. Before long it gets to top heavy, and too many people expect "free stuff" beyond what they earned. (income, respect, recognition, validation, "justice" etc). Feminism is just one "preferred group" feeding at the metaphorical trough of free government stuff. Religions won't fix it. New presidents won't fix it. Only YOU can work on YOUR LIFE to make it the best you can WITHIN a world that is quickly swirling down the toilet.

As far as why so many in the "manosphere" are anti-islam, a lot of those guys are butt-hurt and pretty much hate everything, since they can't get what they want out of society, and don't want to put in the effort.

Plus there's a HUGE MARKET for writing about how "messed up" the world is, since there's no shortage of happy customers more than willing to and would MUCH RATHER read angry manosphere material than work on themselves to improve what they bring to the table.
 

Scaramouche

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Dear Sam and Pierce,
There is a Monkey I saw in Borneo only last year called I think the Macaque Monkey...Soo like a Western Man...This Monkey is sometimes mesmerised by A leopard to the extent that it will just walk towards it and it seems willingly be its next Dinner...So it is with you people...Arnold Toynbee the most formidable Historian of last Century,studied in great depth the Collapse of 26 Civilisations...In 22 cases,19 collapsed,not because they were murdered but because they committed suicide...and so it is with the US and Europe...Dear Old Arnie saw the seeds of your demise in the fifties...Make no mistakes Friends Islam is no Joking Matter...If Britain will exit the EU it might have a chance!
 

pierce_r

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Dear Sam and Pierce,
There is a Monkey I saw in Borneo only last year called I think the Macaque Monkey...Soo like a Western Man...This Monkey is sometimes mesmerised by A leopard to the extent that it will just walk towards it and it seems willingly be its next Dinner...So it is with you people...Arnold Toynbee the most formidable Historian of last Century,studied in great depth the Collapse of 26 Civilisations...In 22 cases,19 collapsed,not because they were murdered but because they committed suicide...and so it is with the US and Europe...Dear Old Arnie saw the seeds of your demise in the fifties...Make no mistakes Friends Islam is no Joking Matter...If Britain will exit the EU it might have a chance!
Seriously, I have no idea what you are talking about. I've been staring at this response for two cups of coffee and I have absolutely no idea what this means or has to do with what I posted. On that, I get paid by the hour. Come back with a coherent argument -- pro tip: punctuation and capitalization standards will help -- and we'll revisit this another time. I have work to do and a date tonight.
 

Alvafe

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This is a legitimate question for you guys and no, I'm not trolling. This also isn't about politics per se, but male-female relations and Islam. I'm hoping this thread doesn't degenerate to petty racial/religious bickering. Lol.

So here goes. I read a lot of talk in the manosphere about two seemingly separate issues:

1) That Western society is in decay. Feminism has ruined the culture, "equalism" has led to rampant degeneracy, women are poisoned with the idea that they should be strong, independent, sexually liberated and even promiscuous, and bytchy. Men are often told to be the opposite or to submit to women. We all know the details...lots of angry slvts and betas and the breakdown of the family.

2) That Islam is the religion of (at least) an invading people, that our lax borders and political correctness have allowed Muslims to pollute Western countries, that it's not a religion of peace but war, that Muslim people are a$$-backwards and have no place here.

Now, I agree a lot with #1 and some of #2. There's a lot of backwardness in Islamic countries, real medieval stuff that makes no sense to me. And certainly the West is a dung pile.

The question is: Isn't Islam (let's say, a "liberal" version of it) fairly in line with a lot of red pill values?

When I see or hear about non-fanatical, non-jihadist Muslims, I see God-fearing people who put family first, and put the man at the top of the family without exception. I see modest and respectful women, and hard-working young men who maintain a steadfast faith (so far as I can tell) that requires daily prayer and even requires them to tithe a percentage of their earnings to charity. I see tight-knit communities, here in NYC at least, suspicious of outsiders but probably honor-bound to welcome a stranger in need no matter what. In more conservative Muslim countries, women stay at home, raise children, cook, often don't vote or even drive. Men must win bread for their families, and women must care for them. There are no slvt-walks, no half-naked selfies, no tattoos, no girls nights out.

Sound familiar?

It sounds a lot like the red pill utopia men here and elsewhere are often pining for. Sure, it's not 1950s America™, but it's a foreign version of some patriarchal ideal everyone wishes we could return to, if only we could turn back the clock.

So why are Muslims often reviled by red pill men? I don't mean the rapists and scoundrels. Show me a million people in any culture and I'll find you 50,000 animals that need to be locked up.

Or, to put it another way, if Islam did come to dominate America and the West, would we be better or worse off than we are today? Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

here is the problem, I don't see then putting family first, I see then putting religion first, maome on second then what they book says, family is well low on that scale, also most muslim will want you to burn in hell for you not being muslim, some are more like chill and don't care much, because is not tehy place to judge, but they still think you will burn. also lets get real here, would science go the way its going today if we held religion on high regards? christianity lost a lot of power over the years, mostly because they don't really take the bible literally anymore, they choose the parts they want, and all the rest is "out of context", islam follow the damn book for the letter, that is the main diference from christianity to islam, islam are just more truthfull to what they follow and don't change based on need.

red pills means we have the knowledge to use for our well being, we know how things work (or woman) and use that knowledge to better our lifes, with also means we will gather more knowledge overtime, islam don't, they would stop you thinking that way because is not what god want.

now if you ask if we would be better or worse if any non muslim country become a muslim country, I show you germany today, and by that I mean it will not have a non conflict turn over, like any thing related to islam (any religion really) will have a nice little war and people will die
 
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